The rain beat him like a father. Cold and merciless like all fathers. God was giving Vince his usual treatment.

I obviously read past the first line, but if that showed up in a magazine or book, I'd skip the whole story.

A writing teacher once told me I was being timid in my writing and that I should "take it to the wall, hell, take it through the wall" because we could always pull it back after the draft was done. On this, I'd say you might want to pull it back (but that's just me).

I had less of an issue with the first sentence than babooher did, but I think the second sentence solidfies babooher's concern. I can handle "The rain beat him like a father." as it feels contained to the character, but following it up with "cold and merciless like all fathers" doesnt add anything to the character or the story

The second paragraph has already - more or less - been summed up in your third sentence.

That said and bearing in mind you are a new member, I must point out that you have talent--that is obvious--but should throttle back a bit. It's all a bit over done. Try writing it making the point his father beat ONCE, and that it is rain ONCE; drop the eldritch morse code stuff (overdone) and try and get something else into your 13 liines to engage the reader.

If this is your first time to the crit altar--keep your chin up--blood is often let, but it only makes you stronger.

[This message has been edited by skadder (edited February 04, 2010).]

I agree that there isn't a lot going on in terms of plot or event. However, your digging into the character, which will do it for the character-people, and you have voice and atmosphere which is primarily what does it for me.

Although, I'm not sure if the double use of "myriad" is working for me.

I will warn you though...although, you've probably already figured it out...dark and gritty isn't very well liked around here, nor is stylized prose.

However, its my experience that there is, in fact, a market for this sort of thing...not the biggest or most mainstream, but it exists.

But I read plenty of published stuff that is or has one or more or all of those things. I'm merely mentioning the fact, or at least my experience that here isn't always a fantastic place to get objective feedback on such. The fact that most comments on Hatrack about such a piece are negative...doesn't necesarily mean a whole lot because most people here dislike fiction of those sorts and with those elements, in my experience. ~shrug~

And like skadder said,

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Basically it's raining and he thinks it's unfair, like when his Dad beat him.
Other than that nothing happens.

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I wouldn't read on.

You're also assuming or seem to be that I was responding directly, specifically to you with that first post. I wasnt. If you guys really truly dont want to "get into old arguments" with me, perhaps you...shouldnt do so. :-)

I don't usually comment on first 13s because they're not my strong point.

I like the tone of this. It presents a character and the beginning of a setting very well--in the second paragraph.

The first paragraph is repetitive and made up completely of short, choppy sentences.

For what it's worth the 13 line thing is brand new to me, and it seems I wasn't quite grasping the purpose of the exercise. Of course stuff happens in the story, but it's clear I'm not holding some people's interest with it long enough to get them there, but that may also just be because this sort of character doesn't appeal to some of you. That's cool, for some they're probably not the audience for it and I don't really feel that inherently reflects poorly on any of us.

Some people want to achieve commercial success and so wish to conform to current trends and thoughts with regard saleability, others are happy to write for more niche markets and do their own thing.

I could explain these camps more specifically, but won't. You get the idea.

The advice you'll get here will vary according to the person giving advice and which camp they belong to.

Thats how trends start, I would think.

I'd be happy to look at this for you, but you should probably finish your first draft before you start worrying about editing. But if you want an early set of eyes on it to discuss the direction, that's okay too.

And this line:

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The rain beat him like a father

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MHO of course.

Please ignore the spats between Merlion and skadder (indeed, between Merlion and everyone). Merlion has his own ideas that, as he says, don't tend to conform to the "norm" on this board (though the "norm" is not some homogenous, Midwich-cuckoo-like hive-mind, which Merlion sometimes likes to pretend it is).

Also, throwing in a curse word for what I see as a pathetic reason makes it nearly impossible for me to have any respect for a character.

The simile made my eyes glaze over and I skipped most of it.

And isn't it, in this case, a bit of rather ironic pot calling kettle black?

If people want to dislike and dismiss me thats fine, I'm coming to accept it. But the double standard is a little much. If its bad for me to do a thing it should be the same for anyone else.

Especially given that, in this thread particularly, all I did was offer my opinions on the first 13, and relate the experiences that I have had. No calling of names, just relating of experiences.

You are absolutely right, though. I should, instead, have written "which Merlion seems to like to pretend" rather than "which Merlion likes to pretend".

I'm not sure how it's a case of "pot calling the kettle black", though. If you could explain what you mean by that in this instance, I'd be grateful.

I realize that you feel or more or less everything you say seems to indicate that you feel that I put myself up as an "iconoclast" for its own sake and to get attention and I also figure you figure its an extended way of trying to defend my own writing or assure myself I have a chance at getting published even though I sometimes choose to write stuff that doesnt fit current trends.

In reality, all of my issues and discussions and arguements around here stem from a couple of basic, inetrconnected things. The biggest being that to me, creativity is sacred. Each individuals particular creativity is sacred. So when people come through this section and essentially tell others they should scrap their story, or their subject matter, or their writing style and do it differently just because they believe it will be more marketable (and assume that is thepersons primary goal) its a problem for me. Especially when its done in an imperative voice rather than put forth purely and clearly as an opinion. There often seems to be little or no respect for authorial intent or goals. The assumption is that everyones goal in writing is to win WOTF and thats not always the case. And even if someone wants that, how much they are willing to compromise their own creativity in order to perhaps, maybe (given that plenty of counter trend stuff gets professionally published) achieve that is going to vary from person to person.

In this thread, all I did was offer 1) my opinion of the fragment and 2) a bit about my experiences on Hatrack. Nothing more.

Edit: Also, up there, I'm not saying dont do harsh crits. I'm saying I have issues with people offering totally transformative criticism, not taking the authors intent into account or basically telling them they should just write something totally different. Be as harsh as you like, but do it in context.

If you want to argue, everyone, take it of a newbies post. IMhO

What is clear from your thirteen, Reliquum, is that you know how to write attitude very well. I have a clear picture of the character both in age, and general demeanor, and that is really good.

The problem, as I see it, is that the character isn't very sympathetic as written. I am on board with the character until he said that God himself was telling him off, which I found sounds egotistical and off putting. I hope that helps.

I also hope you don't judge your entire Hatrack experience of this your first post. We can help you. I know Hatrack has helped me.

~Sheena

I don't think creativity is necessarily sacred, or that everyone should be praised for the simple act of writing (though I have come across writing groups that work from that perspective), but I have no problem with you feeling that way. However I certainly think that if someone feels their creativity is sacred, they will not be in a state of mind conducive to th receipt of criticism - and I've certainly seen plenty of (would-be) writers exhibit THAT attitude on the net. Strangely, I don't see it amongst those who are published, no matter how conventional or otherwise their published works are (and I will repeat again, here, that there is FAR less homogeneity in the marketplace, and even here in Hatrack, than you seem to put forward in your posts about marketability).

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I don't think creativity is necessarily sacred, or that everyone should be praised for the simple act of writing (though I have come across writing groups that work from that perspective), but I have no problem with you feeling that way. However I certainly think that if someone feels their creativity is sacred, they will not be in a state of mind conducive to th receipt of criticism

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The belief in creativity as a sacred concept in no way precludes openness to criticism. Especially constructive criticism. I don't consider criticism that essentially consists of "you shouldn't write this story, or write in this style" and/or "if you write this it has no chance of publication" to be constructive criticism.

I also feel that criticism presented in an imperative voice is often not constructive or even if it is or could be, its hard to see it as such because of the tone.

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Merlion - I operate on the broad principle that, unless someone specificlly indicates otherwise, they have come to Hatrack because of a belief in the commercial potential of their writing.

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Ok. But that isn't always the case. I know we have at least one person with no real interest in publication at all, and...

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The reason I tend to believe this is because people are asking for input and advice

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Ok, but that can be for a lot of reasons. And to a lot of degrees. Sure, there are people here who are willing and able to adopt just about any situation based on the idea that it increases marketability. Thats fine and great and dandy. But, again, the degree of artistic compromise people are willing to make for (supposed/possible) increase in marketability varies.

Also, again, the stated purpose of this site is to help writers get the stories in their minds onto paper in an understandable way...in no area is there an actual, stated focus on publication or trying to alter writers writing to fit more strongly with (real or percieved) trends or whatever.

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and I will repeat again, here, that there is FAR less homogeneity in the marketplace, and even here in Hatrack, than you seem to put forward in your posts about marketability

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Ohh I agree totally about the marketplace especially. In fact, one of the issues I have is that it often seems that many (and many doesn't mean all and doesnt necessarily even mean most) people including many of the most vocal here seem (thats seem, not absolutely do) to feel that the marketplace IS very homogeneous and that if you deviate to far from that you kill your chances of publication.

I just feel that constructive criticism, barring specific request/indication from the author should try to stay within the context of whatever is being critted, not try to alter its basic nature. But I realize that here, as near as I can tell, saying whatever you want about someones writing is fine, but offering opinions or criticisms of criticism is off limits, so I will try to avoid it in future, and do what it is I feel the need to do in other ways.

Non-constructive criticism can also be helpful, though I accept it may not be read well by the recipient. However Hatrack is NOT a harsh environment compared to some others out there. And, again, IF people are looking to be published (and please note that above I did explicitly acknowledge that not everyone is here for that reason - but that I will assume so UNLESS I am specifically told otherwise, and frankly if told otherwise I am unlikely to offer critiques because I fail to see the point) they are gong to have to get used to that. Very few editors offer constructive criticism (they don't have time). And even if you DO get published, you can get some pretty snarky reviews (I've received some - Lois Tilton at IROSF really hasn't liked either of my pieces she's reviewed). Developing a thick skin is one of the things you have to do in pursuit of publication.

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Cold and merciless like all fathers.

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Vince's opening is difficult for me for another reason: I don't know why I'm reading about this character. I have met plenty folks with a chip on their shoulder, and hearing them drone on about how life has dealt them a raw deal is rarely interesting, especially when they show no redeeming quality with which to win my sympathy. Vince seems to have this issue for me: Why should I care?

I'm am seriously considering deleting any comment in a Fragment and Feedback topic that does not relate directly to the 13 lines posted by the person starting the topic.

I felt the issue was that the narration needs to tread a fine line between the character observing that all fathers he has ever experienced are cold and merciless, and that the author is perceived to make a commentary statement (which I don't believe is the intention). Clearly the easiest way to do this is to simply say his father, which precludes him having experience of other cold and merciless fathers, but doesn't put off the reader because it is clearly limited to his experience.

It is also entirely possible that were this paragraph to appear on page five, the reader wouldn't care: they'd know enough about the character for there to be a context to the statement, which is all that's really lacking here anyway.

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The rain beat him like a father. Cold and merciless like all fathers. God was giving Vince his usual treatment.

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I like this begining although I can see why others found it offensive. I think it defines the character in only a few words. I feel sympathy for some kid who was brutally beaten by his father and cannot or will not see that not all fathers are that way.

I agree with others that the next paragraph is over written. You kind of are beating us over the head with how miserable his life has been. I have some suggestions for what to cut and what to keep.

quote:

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Angry droplets materialized out of the yawning dark (I don't really get what you mean by yawning dark, so it doesn't work for me. I suggest cutting yawning.) to beat a staccato rhythm into his head and shoulders (don't need shoulders) as if the universe were some mad telegraph operator, vainly communicating to him a gibbering prophecy in some eldritch form of Morse code. (wow long sentence, and very redundant. I would pick one of these two images "some mad telegraph operator" or "vainly communicating to him a gibbering prophecy in some eldritch form of Morse code" since they both say the same thing. Personally I like the second one, but you don't need both "vainly" and "gibbering". If he get a gibbering prophecy clearly the universe's attempt to communicate with him was in VAIN.) Vince heard the message loud and clear. Since he was a boy, in the myriad forms of myriad horrors, ("the myriad forms of myriad horrors" part is vague and doesn't really tell us anything. It should be cut IMO.) God had relayed to him the same indifferent acknowledgement, and in the clear ringing voice of the black divine that message was: “F*ck you.”

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I hope this helped and that all of this drama won't chase you away. This is a good place to learn and get feedback.

Good luck with this.