posted
I'm a big fan of first person. I find it a lot easier, actually, though I'll admit third is useful for the larger picture, as Ion said. Plus, one character doesn't have to know absolutely everything when you're using third. But I like being inside people's heads, and it's easier to hurt them if you know them I guess. So I prefer first. JK
Posts: 503 | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
I like first person as well. I find it easier, for the most part, and gives a personal touch (obviously). Puting this together with a current intro to a short I've been working on lead me to this question:
What do you think of having a first person pov that a)switches from character to character (say, each chapter is a pov, not changing within a chapter) b)is occassionally not through a major character, but rather through an 'insifnificant' character for the purpose of giving the reader a sense of the main character through the eyes of people in her world?
I'm toying with an intro that has two people talking. I think I want to be in the guy's head to convey perceptions of the woman (who's a significant character). The man, at the moment, is relatively insignificant, and may or may not recur. But I want to use him to show how the woman is perceived, sort of as the eyes of her world. I don't want to be in her head just yet.
Is this a copout, or a legit device to use? I'm rambling, I'm at work, getting distracted. Hope this makes sense to someone.
posted
I've seen first person used for different characters, with chapters separating them, so I don't see why you can't do it JP. Although I'm not sure about the minor character thing, the book I read had only two POV characters to lessen confusion. But hey, it's your story, go for it mate. Do you know what I'd like to try? Second person POV. Imagine pulling that off! THink of the satisfaction and the admiration you'd earn. That'd be great. But I can't think of how I'd do it, so I invite people cleverer than me to try. I'd love to see it done well. JK
Posts: 503 | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
George RR Martin has perfected the art of juggling multiple character POVs. There are probably a dozen main characters and whenever the POV changes with the chapter, there is a chapter header with that character's name. Makes it all very simple... I similarly have about 6 main characters in the story I'm writing, each of which becomes the focal point of their own chapter; although I can't use the same header that George RR Martin uses, I think it's pretty clear who the POV is, and I religiously monitor POV to make sure nothing "slips" up and switches on the reader.
posted
I tend to think that it becomes too easy to slip into cliche phrasing when using third person, unless the locale and character circumstances dictate a totally different dialect than most cliches employ.
posted
I like to say that in recent decades we have had the advent of the SECOND person story. Originally it was called the Role Playing game (e.g. Dungeons and Dragons). Today it is called the computer adventure game.
Computer games, especially adventure games, really are like second person stories. Even the "First Person Shooter" games are more second person than first person. The computer tells you graphically "you see this monster" and "you see that trap door" and "you have two grenades left."
It's a second person story.
I've never played the game "Starship Titanic" but I read the book. I have been told that the game is the second person version of the third person book.
I wonder when computer games will be considered serious literature?
posted
Well, IMHO all the Final Fantasy games (and Zelda for that matter) are real literature. The plot behind the games are amazing, and I sometimes wish I could write like that. Now that would be a cool job, writing the plots for FInal Fantasy. If only they made them over here...*sigh* JK
Posts: 503 | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
I know I may start a storm now... BUT... I dont see how video games can be considered literature. They may stimulate the mind, but its not nearly the same as actual reading. I love 'graphic novels' (aka, comic books!) but I hardly think that is literature. When I play Diablo II for instance, I dont find myself caring for the character for any reason other then it would be a pain in the butt if he died. There is no connection because he has no unique personality, only the NPC's do.
Oh... I like first person for things like mystery and crime stories because I can keep the reader in suspense by not revealing many things (or having the character figure them out) But I like third person for larger stories where I may be following several characters in different locations at once...
posted
I wouldn't put video games and comic books (which I disginguish from graphic novels, by the way) in the same category at all. Many of the comic books AND graphic novels I read are very much literature. Actually, those I read I do so because of the great writing, as well as good art. Neil Gaiman, Brian Michael Bendis, and J. Michael Straczynski to name a few are great writers who write great literature - comic books included.
Posts: 151 | Registered: Feb 2001
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posted
Half Asleep in Frog Pajamas by Tom Robbins is written in second person and tht definitely added a bit of immediacy.
Posts: 13 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
I think that, in the case of comic books as well as graphic novels, the second person is almost a necessity, because it allows the author to tell the story from the point of view of a "normal" person, from outside of the action.
posted
I beg to differ, A_Bear. Some video games can be very much literature. I know that I've followed the plots of some video games as avidly as I have those in novels and short stories. The problem is that, as a medium, it is easy to dismiss because so many games either have very little in the way of plot, or because the main target audience is so young. Video games are just that, for many: games, and so the intricate plot details can be casually dismissed because it's just a game. Your problem with the problem of individual personality stems from the game, not video games as a whole. Many games create a very vivid personality for the characters within the game. Okay, I know I'm going off on a tangent, sorry about that. One last tangent thing, though, what's a junior member? JK
Posts: 503 | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
Dante: unless I am experiencing a premature senior moment, comic books and graphic novels are not second person stories.
First person: "I woke up to a day like any other day. I ran a comb through my grimey hair, then slipped my 44 into the shoulder holster on my bedpost."
Third person: "Captain Ironrod heard the cries of Princess Aereola as the Thuggarian Deathtroopers carried her to the dungeon."
Second person: "You listened at the heavy wooden door and heard scuffling sounds. You thought that maybe the Krayton guards were fighting over the loot in the treasure chest."
As far as I know, second person stories are pretty rare. But in my book role playing games and some video games count as second person stories.
Adventure/puzzle games, such as Half Life, have a lot of the elements of literature. I submit that they really are interactive stories told in the second person.
posted
JK - Well, I can certainly see your point. Maybe because I dont 'get into' the games, I see it that way. I guess literature is as definable as the individual who defines it. Oh, a Junior Member is someone that recently signed up. I hope. "Waiter!", Tapping on the table "Did I accidently get a kiddie menu?"
posted
Ah, I see. That would be why you're now just a Member, right? Cos you've been here a while. Anyway, I just read over my last post, and I've realised I seem a little...indignant, I guess. Sorry about that, I guess I just overreacted a little. Perhaps it was cos I'm in the middle of FFVIII and I'm enjoying the story, or maybe it's cos I was bored and wanted to flex some debate-muscles. I dunno, whatever it was, sorry. JK
Posts: 503 | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
JK, I thought your response was well thought out and intelligent ( I am prone to even agree with you, in hindsight... I little >grin< ) A person's individual interpritations can be a source of great pride. So really, dont fret it. Besides, I was a lincoln-douglas debator myself, so I know how it feels.
And once again I have completely abandoned the topic!!
posted
I'm actually working on a second person story at the moment, though I'm not all that far into it. I think i may have a lot of fun with it, even if I never even consider publishing it.
posted
Actually, one of my favorite computer games, Homeworld, was like playing a book. The style of the game could be considered a mixture of Battlestar Galactica (the search for home) and Star Wars, along with the many spacefaring animes out there.
Was there fighting? Sure. But that wasn't really what it was about. It was about a people's quest to find their roots. And you did grow to care for the people on the Mothership and try to preserve as many lives as possible - and not only because you had limited resources!
Homeworld had a rich background and continued running with the story through the length of the game. It wasn't just "hey, we need a thin plot to cover up the fact that we are doing nothing but fighting here", and there were such instances as First Contact, investigating alien derelicts, and even trying to talk your way out of a fight. (Well, the computer did the talking, you didn't have choices of dialog. But it still ran quite well together.)
It was such a fascinating story that I ended up writing a story about it, in a log format. A story that grew in popularity on the forum boards even though the story wasn't anything "serious".
So yes, computer games *can* be considered a form of literature, if the programmers put the effort into it. Hopefully, more games in the future will be going this route.
posted
I was just worried about narking people off, A_Bear. I hate doing that to people I don't know, gives them the wrong impression... I'll tell you something that happened to me today. I was playing FFVIII this afternoon, for lack of anything better to do (actually, I did have something to do, but I was being lazy). I don't know if anyone knows this or not, but in FFVIII, while the computer controls the dialogue, it does give you options for broadly choosing what you say. For example, you can either keep quiet, comfort someone, or yell at them. The computer controls the dialogue from there, but you've made your choice. I was given one such option, whether to keep quiet or yell at one character. I was sure that yelling at them would mean I lost them from my team, and it was a good character. But, rather than keep quiet, I yelled. Why? Because I felt it was more in keeping with the character I was playing. I think, when you start doing stuff like that, 'Play the character, damn the consequences' gameplay, you can't truthfully say the game has no plot and character development. Anyway, me doing my tangent thing and boring people to death. Thanks for your yawns. JK
Posts: 503 | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
Heres a question: I know it is fairly common in some novels to use the third person. Sometimes the author will follow a different character in each 'scene' (eg. Tom Clancy) My question is: Would I be able to write a story with one section in FIRST person, and other sections in THIRD. Though its not a book, I am reiminded of the movie 'Liberty Hights' which starts in the narrators first person, although there are several scenes in the movie where the narrator is not present. So, how feasable is this for a story?
posted
The Testament employed this. The first two chapters were in first person, and ended with the person committing suicide. The rest was third person.
Posts: 262 | Registered: Feb 2001
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posted
Very feasible, A_Bear. Mike Stackpole used this method to great effect in his novel Once A Hero, in which one main character narrated using first person, the other with third. He alteranted between chapters (i.e. one first, one third, one first etc.) so that it was easier to tell who was narrating without the characters having to say 'hey, it's me now'. It also allowed him to set up little cliff-hangers with one character before ripping you away to the other. At the end of the day, any perspective combination is possible. It's your story. Mix first and third, stick with all characters in third, or have them all in first (and why not, people do it with thrid all the time). The decision, as they say my friend, is yours. Always. JK
Posts: 503 | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
Part of OSC's HART'S HOPE is in second person.
A couple of Marion Zimmer Bradley's novels alternate between first person and third person. (The first person chapters involve a character named Lewis Alton, and the third person chapters involve his cousin, Regis Hastur.)
There are a lot of interesting things you can do just with first and third person POV.
I'll have to post some of them in the Writing Class area of this website.
In the meantime, as an exercise for the readers, why do you think A Conan Doyle chose to tell the Sherlock Holmes stories from Watson's point of view?
posted
Sometimes telling a story from say the main character’s POV would give too much of the story away--think on it---if we saw the story from Holmes’s POV we would know who had committed the crime long before Watson did and then where would the fun be when Holmes gets to tell Watson how he figured it out---there would be no Elementary, my dear Watson. Plus, you have to wonder how he wrote them. Did he know how it was going to end from the start or was he Watson watching his character Holmes figure it out as it went?
As to a mix of first and third---those can be fun and a challenge. Starting out with say a diary entry in first person and fading to what is being written about in third can be a good effect. A lot of stories start out that way and fade to the third. If it’s done right the reader doesn’t even really notice it much. I have been working on a story where I want to have it seem like the reader is in one POV when it really another telling the story. Yikes, what a mess. But it starts out in first person—a court scene—and then as the character gives testimony it fades to the third person –present time—which gradually fades into regular past third person limited. At the start of each chapter I want to slip back to the present time in the court room letting the first person character give a bit of testimony, but I don’t want it to sound like explanation for what I have just shown.
POV can be a confusing mess---but I think it can also be a very flexible and challenging part of writing a good story. Try this with some of your scenes---write the same scene in first, second, third, and all knowing. You will be surprised at how similar and yet how different they are. I have found that many times it helps me get the pace correct and the story flow going better if I do that with a scene that is trying to give me brain stall.
posted
Personally, there is no more annoying thing for me as a reader than to plod through a story written in second person. No matter how well done, it just sounds like a Choose your Own Adventure" to me. Jay McInerny's acclaimed "Bright Lights, Big City" was written from a second person POV, and I made it through all of two pages before tossing it aside. Liz
Posts: 34 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
Protector, by Niven (my favorite book and writer, BTW) was all written in 3rd, except for the last chapter, which was written in 1st. It worked very well because the character went through a huge change, and had to mull over what had happened to him. ("I would have died to prevent what I've now done," or something, he says.)
Armor, by Steakly, switched after about 100 pages and I threw it against the wall, as it was sudden and random, rather than justified. (Steakly might have justified it later -- but I never bothered to find out.)
And I refuse to read 2nd, also.
[This message has been edited by chad_parish (edited August 05, 2001).]
posted
The Sherlock Holmes / Dr. Watson question is interesting!
I can understand why Sir Arthur Conan Doyle would use Watson's point of view rather than Holmes'. One of the most annoying things about first person detective novels is that the writers shares most of what the hero thinks and feels . . except for critical moments that create artirficial suspense.
Example: "I wondered why anyone would kill Sir Reginald, then in a flash it came to me. I picked up the phone and called together all the suspects."
The narrator knows exactly what is happening, but he/she keeps the reader in suspense. The otherwise trustworthy narrator turns against the reader. Yawn. Boo!
When Conan Doyle wrote from Watson's POV, he did not need these stupid tricks. Watson would just see Holmes do something and report it to the reader. Watson would experience the same suspense as the reader. It felt more natural, and the reader could always trust Watson.
Still, why did Conan Doyle not write his Sherlock Holmes stories in third person? I need to think about this one.
It might be because Conan Doyle wanted Holmes to be bigger than life. As a character, Watson could gush about Holmes' amazing deductive abilities all he liked. As a third person writer, it would have been unseemly for Conan Doyle to praise his hero in the same way, especially in Victorian times.
posted
I agree with Doc about Holmes not being the type to gush about himself. He is almost silent most of the time, and lets Watson babble away.It gives him his own sense of mystery, and the reader hopes to learn as much about him as the solution.
I think many novels written about a larger-than-life character work better when told by a person who is invisible to others. Many historical novels tell hero stories from a slave's, or underling's, perspective. The slave is always there, and sees everything, but no one sees him or her.
If you want a different perspective on Holmes, and a creepy one, read "The Last Sherlock Holmes Mystery," by Michael Dibdin. (Liz shudders) I will say no more.(Don't know if it's in print) Liz
posted
I call this the "Great Gatsby" effect. When the main character must be a puzzle, it makes more sense to show him from someone elses' viewpoint.
I used this myself (not that I'm comparing myself to F. Scott Fitzgerald) when there was something "different" about my main character. (Can't say what; it'll spoil the suprise for my crit group.)
Thus, if I wrote half-competently, the narrator and the reader discover the weird clues about the main character, hopefully giving the reader a chance to guess the weird scientific fact the story grew out of before the main character (ironically named Nick, but for reasons unrelated to TGG) reveals what is "different" about himself.
------
Different topic: Slaughterhouse Five was in a twisted semi-first, semi-third POV. It worked very well because it was a satire, and the first person narrator is obviously supposed to be Vonnegut, even though he never says so.
[This message has been edited by chad_parish (edited August 07, 2001).]
posted
The Great Gatsby is a really excellent example of a first person narrator who is not the main character accomplishing exactly that.
One of the most unique elements is that Nick (the narrator) never does learn all the truths about Gatsby. Nick has a little curiosity, though Fitzgerald gets the reader dying of curiosity, but Gatsby dies before we learn about much more than his motivation.
After Gatsby dies there are many clues left behind, but Nick's curiosity seems to have died with Gatsby. By then Nick knows all that he needs to know, having learned enough terrible lessons about life and love.
Ironically, by the end all the other characters have revealed more secrets to Nick than Gatsby has. Nick even knows Wilson's dirty laundry, without ever speaking to him.
I have not yet read Orson Scott Card's Ender's Shadow, but based on discussions elsewhere at Hatrack River it sounds like he uses Bean in a similar manner. Like Nick, Bean has a talent for getting people to open up to him and reveal their deepest secrets to spin a complex tale.
Would anyone who has read Ender's Shadow care to comment on its use of point of view in plot exposition?
posted
Well, Doc, first point is that OSC's use of POV is -fantastic- it allows you to get into Bean's head w/o going to first person. Second, while I haven't read Gatsby, is that in doing ES as a companion novel (saga?) it gives insight on the originator of the saga Ender, in an analytical manner that is rarely equalled, short of a 1st person POV...
WARNING: The following has potential for revealing contents of part of the story.
Just a pointer here, though this story near the end has alot to do w/ Ender, Ender is a support character if you will for ES. He shows up infrequently in the story. Now I must stop here for fear of giving more then I may or may not have. Sorry, tried to keep it informative, yet vague enough not to spoil the store. :/
posted
Maybe it goes without saying, but changing the viewpoint character around can yield some interesting things. Even if it's just as an exercise or a character-development study, looking at a scene or section of dialogue through a different person's POV can help flesh out aspects of that scene or related issues, as well as give the writer new insight into different characters' motivations. It's worth trying -- especially as an antidote to writer's block. Maybe the resulting text doesn't work its way into the story you're writing, but it will provide valuable background and might just open new doors. -Michael Burr (yes, a Jr. member -- longtime lurker)
Posts: 1 | Registered: Aug 2007
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posted
Probably I haven't been lurking long enough to post yet, but this topic got me writing replies in my head . . . I personally prefer third person when I write *and* when I'm reading. I get a better feel for all the characters that way. One thing about first person is that it can be really bad at times. I know some of mine have been <grin> About writing multiple first person views in the same work . . . You've got be really careful that they don't sound like each other (i.e. all sound like you) One way I've found to combat this is write the full story from each character's view. My preferred method for dealing with wanting the individual thoughts and personalities of each character to come through is something I fluked upon when writing a novel and later discovered is an actual device (with a french name that I can't remember). It involves writing in third person but skewing your writing in such a way that it sounds like the voice of the person you are focusing on. Lee Maracle does this in RavenSong. She's the first to pop into my mind right now. If your character is neurotic, the writing would be. If (s)he is prim, the writing would be. However, it's in the third person at the same time. In a way the narrative voice is the voice of the focal character yet one which knows the him/her better than (s)he knows him/herself. Sorry if that's too convuluted . . .
Posts: 2 | Registered: Aug 2001
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