posted
This isn't going to turn into a topic for posting double-entendres is it?
If so, I'm going to have to shut it down.
If, on the other hand, we can turn it to what Samuel R. Delany calls "subjunctive tensions" such as (my favorite)
"As the family sat at breakfast, the morning sun came in the window."
or
"Her eyes dropped to the table."
then we can continue.
(By the way, OSC talks about these when he talks about speculative fiction writers having to be careful with metaphorical wording in his HOW TO WRITE SCIENCE FICTION AND FANTASY.)
posted
No!!! I would prefer this thread to be simply about how poor syntax is becoming frequent in literature ( or how bad it has always been in some areas )
It annoys the hell out of me to read a good book only to find the author making lazy mistakes that he/she thinks that they can get away with making or being so lazy that they let their own modern way of speaking enter that of a character from 1000 years to 30000 years ago.
would you want to read:
"Gee, I really did think it were better to come in the keep than goddamn it look out the window!"
It really winds me up! Who said "Gee" in the dark ages. Who really wants to come in a keep and you cant look out a window. You can look out from one, through one, out of one but to Look out a window sounds to me as if one is about to fall on your head!!!
[This message has been edited by Heimdall (edited February 02, 2002).]
[This message has been edited by Heimdall (edited February 02, 2002).]
posted
I remember once reading a really funny short story that was all about someone reading a chapter in a cheesy romance novel and thinking that it was a horror novel because they took the language literally. It started with the phrase, "His eyes roved about the room" and ended on "He had stolen her heart" or something like that. Very tounge in cheek, but also very funny. Guess you really had to be there...
Then again, that's not a grammer problem, just a style problem.
Then again, again, the problems that you're talking about aren't grammer, but syntax. It's grammatically correct to say "came in the keep" but it doesn't necessarily mean "came into the keep" (i.e. entered the keep) and seems to say "came within the keep" (which has innocuous meanings as well, as 12:30 can come in a keep and does so twice a day without causing any sort of scanddl).
In any case, I fully support you insofar as concerns the language the author employs, but the language the characters employ may be whatever is consistent with the character being depicted as saying it...
Which means that we are back to style problems, since I agree that the phrase is egregious. I don't think that I would have found it believble or engaging as a component of dialogue for a literate, scholarly character.
For my own opinion on the relation of SF to fantasy, read elsewhere.
quote: By the way I bought Orsons book and was annoyed to find that it has only a very tiny percentage of matter relating to fantasy
Interesting... I found the emphasis on fantasy and the soft sciences to detract from the book. Remember his quotes in the world-building chapter poking fun at the science-so-hard-it-goes-crunch crowd? (Of which I count myself a pround member.)
Can't please everyone, eh? On the balance, though, well worth reading.
posted
I would say I have to agree with Heimdall. I write both, of course, but I find it far harder to write good fantasy than good science fiction, and was looking for help from soneone who has mastered both.
I think the emphasis was on the soft sciences as a sort of midway point, rather than either hard sci-fi or fantasy. I write all of it, but apparently I'll need to look elsewhere for advice on the two 'extremes'.
posted
Didn't OSC go on a minor tirade about such nitpicking in an essay about workshops once? I seem to recall him saying somthing about that "Her eyes fell to the table" bit specifically, something like "Come on, now! Eyes in that context is a perfectly acceptable metaphor for gaze". I think the point of the rant was that the reader who actually takes such metaphors literally is a fantastically small part of your audience, so please spend your workshop time and effort actually critiquing the story.
Forgive me, I can't remember where or when or any other details about this incident, except that OSC mentioned in the same article that he was in the middle of a "all-Diet-Coke-no-food" diet and was also, after some time spent locked away in this particuarly intense workshop, beginning to miss the presence of other Mormons.
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