My problem is this…I need to set up a romantic relationship between my two of my characters. Now, I really don’t want to draw it out, because I hate when you know something is going to happen and the author feels it’s necessary to write a 100 pages leading up to the most expected and anticlimactic sequence of the story. From the outset everyone knows the Queen’s champion and the Queen are going to “get it own.” Their relationship takes place in a series of flashbacks and after I’ve established the relationship between the Champion and the Queen the plan has always been for her to die. The one thing I’m trying to avoid is setting up a “straw man.” A character that serves little purpose and lacks any characterization and is essentially a prop. The Queen’s death is the reason for the Champion being a total piece of sh*t at the beginning of the novel. Characterization has never been one of my weak points, but in this case I feel it’s terribly important to the novel as a whole. I have to make the readers care when the Queen dies---I have to make them feel the way the Champion feels. Now, the way to do this is to see the relationship between the two of them develop through the Champion’s eyes. You take the roller coaster ride with him.

I know what I need to do, but not how to do it. First off she’s in a position of extreme authority. Not only that but the story takes place in a sword and sorcery world, so it’s not like the can go to Chi-Chi’s or talk on the phone and get to know one another. I have a few really bad ideas that all sound like a medieval version of “Saved By The Bell”----not really what I’m going for.

Now, I’m not asking anyone to write this for me, and I’ve done my best to keep the details ask vague as possible, but I’d be interested to know how some of you would approach this situation or even how some published authors have approached a similar scenario. I’m just looking for a little brainstorming and anything that could jumpstart my own thought process. I’d appreciate any ambiguous suggestions.

I’ve always thought there was a fine line of asking for help and explaining a few details of your story and asking people to critique your work. I hope this post doesn’t fall into the category of the later and I apologize if I’ve broken any of the BB’s rules.

Thanks,

When a person dies, I think a lot of one's sorrow comes from the destruction of all the good work that person would have done in the future.

So don't write as if the Queen is going to die. Get that out of your head. Write as if she has an entire life ahead of her, one filled with dreams and hopes and aspirations, with goals and duties and responsibilities, and the million other things that make us human. Then, when you suddenly end her life, the reader will be heartbroken, which is exactly the point you're trying to make.

(I ask because you say you need to show the romance so the readers will know why the Champion is the way he is at the beginning of the novel.)

If the romance is not part of the novel, but only part of the novel's past, why not make it a mystery that is revealed through the course of the book instead of in one big lumpish flashback that stops the story you really want to tell?

Flashbacks, when used at all, should be used sparingly and should not take up a lot of space in the story.

The state the Champion is in at the beginning of the novel should be enought to tell the reader how wonderful this romance was and how tragic the Queen's death was. I'd think you could also "up the ante" (if it fit with the story you are really trying to tell) to have the Champion feel responsible in some way for her death (even if you don't have other people think he's responsible).

Usually material that is important to the story and that happened in the story's past can be revealed in bits and pieces (as in a mystery).

If you really feel you have to show it all, don't do it as a flashback, start the novel while the romance is still all moonlight and roses, right before the sweethearts find out the Queen is going to die, and then show about her death. Then skip to the beginning you have now, however long after the Queen's death that is.

Handled well, that could be a jumping off point for a good romance. Depending on the characterization of the queen, (is she as likely to hang him for such a thing?) and the way in which the champion defies her, (is she exerting her authority unjustly? does he have a good reason? and is he *polite but firm*?) there's a lot of openings for some strong chemistry, for good or bad. Though I assume you want GOOD chemistry.

Now that's only one way to do it, but remember, she's a queen . . . he has to do something worthy of her attention . . . BESIDES being the knight-in-shining-armour type. Think of how many blustering idiots she sees in a month!

Anyway, just a few thoughts.

Perhaps because of some assignment the Queen’s Champion is doing for the Queen they end up having some private meetings. Such a set-up might become just informal enough for them to get to know each other more as people rather than ruler and servant. And there are always little subtle things that can happen, like a brush of hands while pointing to something on a map, etc. that can sort of slowly jolt them out of their formal relationships.

Just a couple of thoughts...

The flashbacks go in chronolocigal order and there is a bit of a build up to the Queen's death. When I start the story the Champion is huanted by his noble past and I'm more comfotable starting the story when these events are already in his past.

Thanks again,

You guys kick ass!
JOHN

Ever BB has different rules for profanity and I've been kicked off of certain unrelated BB's for using profanity. (although the the things I words I was using were a lot more extreme that a simple ass) Personally I agree with you, we're all adults and as a writer I depise censorship and I perfer using ass instead @$$ it annoys me to the same end, but in case you haven't noticed past BB experiences have made me a little scared of being booted.

BTW, just a personal thing, but if you're gonna write 'ass', write it, I beg of you. We're all grown-ups here, we can stand the sight of the odd ass. Although, for me it's an arse. Point is, an @$$ irritates me. Sorry, but there it is.

As much as I like discussing writing in general this is more of what I was hoping from this BB. A community of people just bouncing ideas off one another for their own individual projects. I guess I was looking for a sounding board.

Again, further comments are appreciated, but you guys I've helped me tremendously.

Thanks,

First off, I don't think that it's even slightly fair to try to hide information that the POV Character already knows. This guy knows that the Queen is dead, no matter how drunk he gets every night, how many stupid, pointless duels he jumps into, and no matter how much he lies to himself about what did and didn't happen to cause her death. It underlies far too many of his motivations for you to try to hide it. I'd actually say that rather than just hinting between flashbacks you should make it explicit that the relationship is over permanently every time he thinks about her, whether or not you reveal that she is actually dead as such.

Another point is that there is no necessity of them actually having that much of a relationship, as long as it is clear that he loved her intensely. If you can't think of a plausible way to have them 'get it on', then don't bother, an unattainable romance is every bit as good, particularly for making him feel crazy about her death. Actually, the very best would be if they just might have been together, but they were held back by some small thing, and then she died. That's the kind of thing that drives you nuts with the secondguessing and the might have beens.

For that matter, look at Romeo and Juliet. That relationship didn't QUITE develop before it all went to hell, and while it's not DIRECTLY applicable (knight/queen) it illustrates my point.

Okay . . I'm getting incoherent and sloppy, but hopefully you get the point. If it's not what you want to write, then it's ultimately not what you want to write. But if you're ALREADY having a hard time describing their relationship . . . keep in mind that they don't necessarily have to have had one for him to have been hurt terribly by her death.

And that's the last of my two-cents worth.

BTW, this thread has been useful to me also. This is a discussion about writing.A discussion about how to make one character's death most effect another one. (It's helped because I'm sorta doing the same thing in my current story).

I am manipulating the readers to certain extent. I want them to believe they're getting a fairly cliched by well characterized fantasy novel and then halfway though the book turn the tables on them. The knight would rather get trashed then slay dragons, the blonde haired blue eyed faiy princess dies and her former champion is blamed, and when all is revealed the actual female lead can only be imagined as resembling a black woman.

I want it to mean something when the Queen dies however. It's not something I'm doing for just shock value. Obviously, this event means something to the Champion so I need to make it mean something to the reader. Think of it this way...

What if Khalan died fairly early on in the Sword of Truth? or David Eddings' Queen Elana? or Katerina in Enchantment?

That's the emotional impact I'm looking for. Hopefully, ny writting is at least 1/8 as good as the athours I mentioned then I MIGHT have a chance of pulling it off.

JOHN!

Make the flashbacks match the intensity of the ACTUAL story. Don't have them be motivations for the action, use them as expositions OF his actions. Subtle, I know, but very important. If you use the flashbacks to explain why he's doing something that seems COMPLETELY irrational, or that seems to go against his character, it helps us to get the full impact of how drastically the events in the flasback are affecting him now.

And from what I can tell, you are already pretty much doing that, and seem to have a good handle on it. Just remember to tell the right story. As much as the Queen's death affects the story you're telling, it's not story, it's background. And the character ALWAYS HAS TO BE TRUE TO THAT BACKGROUND. But always remember, even though you might not reveal that the Queen dies, the character knows, and as much as he might be trying to forget it, he can't. But the reader doesn't have to know WHAT he's trying to forget, as long as we know that he IS trying to forget it. (We'll want to know eventually, but you can tell us in your own sweet time.)

Which of these you portray depends more on how much effort you put into demonstrating that the hero is still heroic despite his condition than on which you believe. If you don't create a believable personal history that demonstrably would lead even the bravest, most honorable, and best person into the sorry state your hero is depicted as occupying, then the audience will assume that the story is making the latter point.

Artistically, this is a point that can be made, but making it by default because you have not presented compelling justification for the actions of the protagonist will leave you with a weak story. And when I say compelling justification, I don't mean the sort of thing that any of us would tolerate as an excuse for ourselves, but what we would demand of someone better than ourselves.

You need to break this character in places that someone dying, even his beloved, would not even begin to touch. He needs to have, not only his personal emotional comfort or social position, but his very theological existence challanged. You need to take away his soul, break it over your knee, and cram the broken pieces down his throat.

ARBITRARY DREAM SEQUENCE

John* knew exactly where he was even though the room was black expect for the small light given off by the lone candle in the far corner of the room. Without being able to see anything recognizable, John’s remaining senses told him exactly where he was. The distinct smell of the scented candle, the cool, soft feel of the bed sheets, and the crunching noise they made under his weight, all told him he was in Queen Bianca’s* bedchamber.
John wore only his trousers and lied peacefully in her bed on the verge of falling asleep. He wondered if it were possible to fall asleep in a dream. It was then John realized he was dreaming, but he hadn’t been so at peace for quite sometime and it would suite John just fine if he never woke up.
He was on the verge of getting an answer to his question whether or not one could fall asleep in dream as he started to doze off, but before he could the door opened. John turned to see who entered and was greeted by the silhouette of a female figure. She entered the room without saying a word, shutting the door behind her. John squinted to trying to make out the woman’s face, but the room was too dark and she was too far away. His efforts were made even more futile after she blew out the candle.
His thoughts confused and surprised him. Was he expecting anybody besides Bianca?
Still silent the woman laid her body on top of his; John felt her weight oddly arousing.
*No offense to anyone who post here but I've changed the characters' names being the paranoid writer that I am.

Yeah, I know it's more than a little lackluster. I not looking for story suggestions, but I'm sure I'm not the only one who has been stuck in such a funk. My question is what do you do to get out of this and get your shit back on track?

JOHN!

I take a break. Pure and simple. It might be a break from writing period, and I'll start reading again or watch TV or play video games (the ones where you just shoot stuff and loot the corpses).

But I also find that taking a break from what I'm currently writing helps. Usually, some idea, or a fragment of a scene comes to me. I'll craft that scene, or what little bit I see. Recently, I was completely stumped. Knew where I had to go in my novel, but unclear-- or unmotivated-- as to how to get there. While racking my brain for somethiing-- anything-- to write, a snippet of a scene popped in. So I wrote it. One page of pretty darn good stuff for a prologue... of a completely different novel. I saved it, filed it, and all of a sudden my juices were flowing again. 2 hrs later I had the chapter I needed.

Oh, and as asinine as it might sound, try listening to something different while you write. I find music helps guide my juices. Somethings are too distracting, other things fit the mood just right. My current favorites are the Gladiator and LOTR soundtracks, with an occassional Enya thrown in there if I'm writing something that has little hard-core action.

So 1)admit it sucks 2)admit you need a break 3)take the break 4)write scenes in your head (not sure how easy this really is) 5) go write them until your headache goes away.

1. Write a different scene, something from later that is clear in my mind. That gets me back in the groove of writing again, and the next day I can get back to the point of the plot where I was working before. And it’s not like that scene is going to waste or anything (well, unless the whole plot changes drastically before you get to there, but my point is you can still feel like you are making progress.) Sometimes working on that future scene helps clarify where I’m going with the old scene I just couldn’t seem to continue with before.

2. Find some good theme music for the part you want to work on (which you may or may not be able to listen to while writing, depending on your need for quiet).

3. Go away from the computer and go read something else. I’ve found a few authors that, not only do I enjoy their stories, but love their use of language, and reveling in that for a while seems get me writing again.

4. Go away and do something else for a while – take a drive or something. I have a lot of vivid “that’s it” moments when driving.

If I’ve had a stressful week that has gotten me out of the writing habit, it takes a bit before the brain cells re-juice enough to get anything out without requiring a crowbar. Trying to write when you’re worn down mentally is just painful, if not impossible, at least for me.

The other thing I’ve notice is that when I do finally come out of a difficult period like that, I’m really with it, really motivate, really getting the words out – in general, a real flush of productivity. So maybe you too have something like that to look forward to.

If you wait until you get that far in the story, you may have lost the excitement you felt when you first had the idea for the scene.

You can always throw it away (consider it an exercise) if it doesn't fit the story by the time you get to it in the story, or you may be able to rewrite it so it will fit.

No writing is ever wasted, and writer's block may actually be caused by trying to force yourself to write a part of the story that you don't care that much about while another part is just begging you to write it.

That said, I'd like to offer one of my favorite "block-busters." I find it very hard to read all the way through a how-to-write book any more because I start thinking about one of my stories as I'm reading, and I eventually put the book down and go write.

If you wait until you get that far in the story, you may have lost the excitement you felt when you first had the idea for the scene.” -- Kathleen Dalton Woodbury

I know, I know, and I don’t always write in order even when things are flowing, although I should remember to jump around when needed more often. And I’m with you on keeping the excitement thing rolling. Write it while it's fresh, not when the idea has set around and gotten stale while you mope through something that isn’t as interesting – that just gets bad all the way around. I just tend to be a linear-minded and goal-driven sort of nut, which comments like the one I made in the post above illustrate.

GZ

Now that's not quite the same as shooting a film/video out of order, which I'm VERY familiar with. But the story's already there . . . you already KNOW what's going to happen, you already know how to direct everything and make the pieces fit together. Writing's just more dynamic than tha. One day, you think you know how the story'll go, the next, you discover it has to change, and even just a little bit can end up making a DRASTIC difference in the end.

JOHN!

[This message has been edited by JOHN (edited May 22, 2002).]

Anyway, maybe I read too many Penthouse letters, but the only adjectives I can think of to describe a woman’s breasts and not sound clinical are firm and supple. Of course it’s a fantasy story, and the female character undoes her bodice. Dear Christ, my story it starting to sound like something you would buy at the grocery store with Fabio on the cover. Next think you know I’ll be writing about heaving bosoms and throbbing manhood. I don’t want to be lurid and gratuitous about the whole thing and there is something to be said about “less is more,” but I think I can be sensual and subtle at the same time without disappointing the preadolescent male that lives within all of us. Any suggestions?

Less really is more.

I'd recommend that you say that she undid her bodice, and then describe the reaction of the person who sees what she reveals, instead of describing what is revealed.

You know, "she pulled apart the lacing, and as her bodice opened up, he froze. He couldn't stop looking, even though he knew his face was turning red, and at any moment she might glance up and laugh at him..." or somesuch.

That way, the reader can imagine more than anyone could ever adequately describe.

It's how I'd do it, anyway.

You have to find the way that works for what you're trying to accomplish.

You could do what OSC did when he was working on the beginning of ENDER'S SHADOW--see Uncle Orson's Writing Class when he talks about beginnings--he tried several different things until he had what he wanted.

Start out with the most lurid, purple, overly adjectivized (is that a word?) description you can think of.

Then swing the pendulum all the way to the other side and write the most clinical description you can manage.

The scence was made even more difficult as I'm kinda messing with the audience giving them what the want, and pandering to the cliches, getting them attached to both characters (not that my use of cliches is meant to be a substitute for characterization) then the female character dies as I've mentioned before.

This idea was inadvertently given validation when I recently went to the movies. At the end of the moive, which will remain nameless so not to ruin if for others, the male and female lead didn't start a romantic relationship as the cliche would dictate. As the credits rolled the lady behind me become verbally upset saying how stupid the ending was. Me and my other writer friend were laughing to ourselves. The movie ended both ambigously and realistically and it was more than this lady's feeble mind could handle. It was actually rather infuriating. I want people to think they know what is going to happne next and then just come out of leftfield. Especially morons like the ignorant moviegoer.

Again, thanks for the advice. My next step was to go to a strip club and write it off on my taxes as a buisness expense.

Now I'm dying of curiosity . . .

Can you give me hints . . . Old or New, Genre? Maybe even go so far as to reveal the names of an actor or two?

Sounds like an interesting movie. I like ones that dare to break out of the cliches.

And incidentally, I'm glad you worked out your story problem.

Glad I can end the suspense, and sorry to dissapoint those expecting something more highbrow (not that My Best Friend's Wedding would fit into that category. If it's Julia Roberts you want check out Notting Hill (yeah, it they get together but the movie's dialogue was so understated and subtle I didn't mind.) I fell in love with Anna Scott.)

JOHN!

Now I REALLY have to see spidey in action! And I agree about Notting Hill. In fact, I would venture to say that almost every Julia Roberts romantic comedy made in the last decade is worth seeing. Okay . . . Runaway Bride was pushing it a bit, but it was unique enough I thought it worked.

And I'll recomment America's Sweethearts too. Though pay attention to the rating. It's not the 'nicest' film but it's funny as heck and it's prolly the most truthful-feeling cliche out there. :-)

Kathleen,

Thanks for your "less is more" post above. My story is approaching a similar point, and I've been very worried about it. I'm setting up (unique, I hope) variation on the Blue Lagoon scenario in which two healthy, young people of the opposite sex are accidentally marooned together for a long time.

Both will be ongoing characters, and the fact that they were marooned together will shape the rest of their lives. It's very critical to my story. But there is no way I can depict their adventure together without including some sex scenes.

I believe the scenario I have created will be tantalizing enough, even for the most over-hormoned teenage reader. No need to make it pornographic. But to understand the long-term emotional effects on the characters, the reader needs to experience what the characters experience. I could not figure out how to do that without getting pretty hard core.

This may sound weird, but when a noble character dies don’t you want the readers to be sad? When the villain does something dastardly don’t you want the reader to be angry? To me it’s all the same. One of the reasons I write is to get a emotional reaction out of people.

JOHN!

I have written sexually...oriented material, and on one occasion started to write something having to do with an army of evil and so forth, that was to involve some pretty deviant stuff, which I decided not to write after all, (because it was really devient but even without being explicit it was also really pornographic--basically a big S&M orgy to get our evil guys in the mood, which is as far as I would like to go in print).

Hey, I'm not in favor of making the main character a sex object, since that really does tend to lessen our regard for him (and his woman) as persons. There are legitimate reasons for sex to be depicted (and that evil army thing I was talking about was one of them, but I still don't feel comfortable writing it), but you have to realize that usually you only want to show bad characters as being motivated by sex...so it should only be bad guys that have sex on the page (you know what I mean ).

Good guys, or people that we are supposed to care about, shouldn't be depicted in any way that will make it less likely that the audience will see them as truly sympathetic characters. And it can be hard to be genuinely sympathetic to someone that you've gotten a voyeristic *bang* out of.

*bang* the bad guys all you want, though (well, have a little taste, there may be children reading this stuff--school kids, if you're a good enough writer).

As far as a sex scene where you don’t want your readers to be aroused such a rape scene. Think about it. I’d give a little detail here, so the reader is aroused by the nudity and sex in the scene and recognizes those base desires (sexual desires not a desire to rape) in themselves and then are even more disgusted by the horrible actions of these men.

Sorry to be so long winded.

Thanks

I quote:
If you are using a known foreign langauge, by the way, take the time and effort to get it right. Among your readers there will always be someone who speaks that language like a native. If you get it wrong, those readers lose faith in you - and rightly so. Whenever you can be truthful, you should be truthful; if your readers can see that you're acting by that credo, they'll trust you, and you'll deserve their truth. But if they catch you faking it, and doing it so carelessly that you can easily be caught, they'll figure that if the story wasn't worth much effort to you, it shouldn't be worth much to them, either. They may still like the story, but you have blunted the edge of their passion.

Endquote

Phew, so much to say so little. But the point is that there will be people who read your story, should it go to print, that know a Vicar is, in the Episcopalian Church and the Church of England, simply a priest. And in the Roman Catholic language a Vicar is a priest acting in absentia for a higher ranking member of the clergy - an rather unlikely candidate for stewardship of a kingdom, no?

What you could consider doing is diving into a thesaurus and pulling all of the apropriate titles out of Religious Leader section. Once you have those, try translating them into other languages - while they'll mean the same, your general audience won't know the difference (of course, the different language is only appropriate if that kingdom were culturally influenced by people who spoke the language). Also, try going back into the Latin roots of things. For instance, 'Pope' in Latin (as well as Spanish, Portuguese and anything with Latin roots) is Papa, and in Greek it's Pappa. Cardinal is Cardinalis and the latin root means 'Principle or primary' - certainly a word that would befit a King.

If you want to write about religion that at least spend a little time researching those you'd like to base it on.

If you want to base it on the Roman CAtholic Church, then visit here and link through to the CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPAEDIA:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/

I like the suggestion (sorry, I didn't catch the poster's name!) of looking at ancient languages for a similar word (only in so far as it will have meaning for you and be far easier for your "internal" usage). THEN you could always steal my trick-- I take a foreign word which feels/sounds right and then change the first letter (or a combination thereof). Poof! Now you instantly have your own, unique word. (I actually do this trick to come up with character names; ha ha ha, but foreign last names with the first syllables dropped often make great fantasy character names.)

Good luck...

John - if you really want a name, perhaps consider first what sort of religious culture your world has, and the theology involved, and see what matches best in the real world by doing some research. That way you can narrow down specific areas.

But do ensure you have at least some understanding of any real-world terms you use. For example, Vicar is a specific denominational term.