Take a look at "The Writer's Market" at your local Library, look at the publisher’s section and see what word length they are looking for.

Pick up a book in you genre and average the words per page to see how many pages what you have will fill.

It remains though that rarely does a "break out" "first book" have more than 120,000 words. The average and preferred length is between 70,000 and 90,000 words. At 90,000 words you will have about 310 manuscript pages, using standard 1 inch margins, 12 pt Times New Roman and a header on each page---(slug line with title, your name, and page number in it). Though I am coming across those agents that want courier 12pt, larger, and makes the page count jump and the postage.

I checked and the book I just finished reading had an average of 285 words per page. A long book may use a smaller font, a short book larger---so a judgment of pages seems to be more of a writer thing---a I have written X number of book pages.

My advice, learn to keep track by word count, which is how you will have to think once you reach the selling stage.

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It remains though that rarely does a "break out" "first book" have more than 120,000 words.

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If it is ever published is almost irrelevant at this point. The people I've had look at it thus far have said it was pretty good, so it might even get published, but my primary objective now is to just get it done. The only sticking point is that I really am no more than half done and I'm already at 80,000 words, and I might only be 1/3 of the way done.

Another related question. How to count words. Computers have changed this. MS-Word gives me both word and character counts. I was told the many publishers still use the character count and divide by five rule rather than the actual count. Does anyone know which is more common?

Thanks

It costs more to publish a longer book as well, so publishers are less willing to take a chance on a huge long book the first time around.

I know we've gone the "rule" route many times.

If you feel that your book is over long then look where you can cut it without cutting the story.

BUT above all else write the story you have to tell. The proof of what sells is out there, but then the "rules" can always be broken, just make sure you know what they are before you decide to step outside them.

Copy editors I am sure use the by five rule to determine space. When you send a submission in (a query letter) they want to know word count. Use your writing programs word count and say something like, 91,000 words by MS word or whatever.

NO one is going to be so nit picky that they will point and say HAH! I counted and got 91,001 words so I reject you.

It also goes along with my feeling of trepidation. By Chapter 16, I've got about 60,000 words under my belt and am just NOW entering the "middle" of my book....

I have also seen something else, it goes like this--

My first book 325,000 words---sent out 60 some queries---Two requests for the manuscript. One from a publisher and one from an agent. The publisher, editor, was nice enough to write me a very long letter, (someone from DAW). He said I had a gift for story telling, but that my text was overblown and over full, it was bloated. The book was written form all knowing and he suggested I re-write it in third or first person ---- he went on to red line about 10 pages showing me where I had repeated myself, where I should have done this and that—by the time he was done there where about 4 pages of that 10 left. I have kept in contact with this man over the last three years on and off. The other was an agent that ripped the work to shreds in much less helpful way.

My second book was not much better for over word use it turned out to be into the 400,000 range. I didn’t even bother to send queries on it. Maybe some day I will dig it out and divide it or burn it. LOL

My third book ended at 190,000. I am working on making it into two books---but in the year and half before it was done I have learned a lot thanks to my friend at DAW. I sent out about 20 queries on it. Sorry too dark where most of the rejections and I got several too longs back thus the desire to re-write it. I am working on it now.

My forth book ended at 70,000 words. I stumbled on a formula that is supposed to work for a first book. While I do not say this will work for anyone else as we all seem to work differently, but it worked for me. I sent out 10 queries thinking I had plenty of time to revise, three days later a big name agency asked for the complete manuscript. BONK! I was not ready for that and neither was the manuscript. I sent it anyway and it got rejected. I learned something though—one, as Kathleen told me, I should have taken the time to do some revision as they were not standing there checking their mail to see if I had sent it. Two: park the arrogance at the door. Look at the statistics for first time books---I had already done that with the word count per chapter ect. So I was one up on that one. Three: it worked, this idea of following the rules. I had a 1 out of 7 ratio in favor of the book looking at requests for it. Even if it got refused. Gadds with good reason.

Now I have added about 20, 000 words to it and ma sending it out again---guess what adding words was certainly easier than killing my darlings. And I am still averaging about 1 out of 7 in the area of requests for further material.

My fifth book is right now 40,000 words and I wrote the last chapter. Time to decide what to do with it. E-book maybe, or add another 35,000. Don’t know yet will see where it is at when I am done.

So I apologize as well for coming off like a bitch here lately! I am not like that. I am living in agent search hell and it is driving me round the bend. Thank goodness for my crit group-----

I hear so many writers say things like, "No, I don't really go back and add very much. It pretty much comes out the way I type it in." and it amazes me. This causes my inner-editor to go hogwild and scream at my inadequacies the whole time I'm writing. Things like, why can't you get it right the first time? or, You know <insert name here> would have gotten it right the first time....

Oh well, someday soon.... maybe! haha

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I hear so many writers say things like, "No, I don't really go back and add very much. It pretty much comes out the way I type it in."

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I submit that at least half of those writers are either lying or in denial. Very few writers can quit with the first draft.

So don't let it get you down. The more you write, the better you'll be in first draft, but you will probably always have to do some rewriting.

I agree Kathleen. The novel I am currently marketing has been through 12 drafts now. And I have no doubt that an agent or editor will see it as a first draft and it will go through many others.

Feeling a bit less stressed today---did not end up going to the Frontiers conference--grrr, bunch of stuff came up, so I entered in their contest (back in April) and await hearing who won.

Also went to see Scooby-Doo last night--ROFLMAO--till I had tears running down my face, great spoofs on other movies if you watch for them. Great stress relief, so ignore the bad reviews, it was a kick.

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"No, I don't really go back and add very much. It pretty much comes out the way I type it in."

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Well, that first book is going to be four or five books at some point. I plug away at it when I am blocked on other things. So, it’s an epic that should be many books. I was too green to writing long fiction to stop when I got to the end of book one and say, OK let's wrap this up and go on to book two.

My second book---have no idea what to do with that monster---I checked word count on it today and it is out of this world. And i am not done with it. I stopped because there didn't seem to be any point any more with it. I went on and on and on and on and on----somewhere in it there are stand-alone books.

But--oh how I love some of the scenes! They jump from the pages vivid and sparkling, among many others that do the same. So to explain murdering my darlings---I need to choose which of those sparkling scenes best tells the story and advances it and kill the rest.

To me it is also not just in a long work this needs to be done. In the novel I am marketing right now, the main character drives a Jaguar. I had a scene where he was washing the car, by hand. It was, I reasoned, part of the setup to show how material the character was. (I had already done this in several places) A fellow writer commented that it was the only sex scene in the novel. As in, he didn't wash the car, he made love to it.

While a great and vivid scene, it went a little over the top for the characterization, and for the character as he grew and learned throughout the book. So, though I have kept the scene on my hard drive and in back up, it was cut. But boy I loved that written in flow scene! Thus another of my murdered darlings.

Cutting the junk is cutting the junk. Have mouse will travel. Highlight and hit delete with delight. But that is something learned along the way----what is good for the story and what is good for the writer are often hard to see. Practice and crit groups, though, help a lot.

my epics need work---ekkk. The first two anyway. The 200,000 word one I am very pleased with, though even it will undergo much revision.

You know you have written too much stuff when your backup to A drive tells you do not have enough disk space for even one backup. Gotta go for the CDR drive and even that one is getting to the point where "my documents" folder must be divided in two. Yikes---just realized that my first computer had a hard drive smaller than what fits on a 700mg CDR.

Off to work on something. My latest must be doubled in length to query the paper publishers, as is I may go the e route with it and see where that takes me.

JK, I have work at www.wildchildpubishing.com A serial called Hidden Truths, if you are interested. I also do a column aimed at beginning writers, though I have taken a break for May and June from that one.

On query letters, buzz my e-mail if you want. I can share the letter I have been using that has gotten me a great many requests for further material.

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Yikes---just realized that my first computer had a hard drive smaller than what fits on a 700mg CDR.

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Our first hard drive, way back when, was a whopping 20MB. Not GB, MB. :-)

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Why CDRs, Shawn? I use a Zip drive myself.

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Well, for me, it would be mostly the fact that ZIP discs cost a fortune compared to blank CDs. There's also a big compatibility issue, since you'd have to work really hard to find a computer without a CD drive, while the same can't be said of a ZIP...

To visit his site try this ur"l" instead:

http://www.wildchildpublishing.com/

1) How in the world do you people find the discipline to actually hunker down through the boring parts of your story (because we all know that you have a less boring part in your mind but you can't write it because you need background from earlier in the story)?

Hopefully nothing is truly boring. If it’s really boring, who’s going to want to read it? I think you would want to rethink that section. A reader will wish you had.

But I assume you’re talking more about transition/information scenes between “big events” or something like that?

Really, they have a lot of potential of their own. They should be serving some purpose besides gushing exposition, and so they have action, character development, and new plot threads to grow. Lots of fun stuff to play with, which equals interesting writing time.

But really, if you’re so hungry to write a certain scene why don’t you? You can always change some of the details later to fit the lead-in as appropriate. I’ve been working that way lately, keeping in mind some things said on here about not having to work in a linear fashion (BTW -- Thanks for the head smack on that topic Kathleen ) Since I do have an overall scheme lined out, they’ve fit in well for the most part, and give great ideas about what to use as lead-ins that are often better than some of my original thoughts on the matter.

I always miss that darned l. I had a magazine tell me that my link did not work--but they figured it out. LOL

How do we hunker down through the boring parts--for me if I hit a part that I find so boring I could sleep in the keys---I go back to the part that started putting me to sleep and I get rid of it and start from that point on again. I stand by my thoughts that if it bores me, the all mighty creator of the work, then it will bore the reader. <shrug> works for me.

How old are us people? I, too, remember my first lap top. It had two 3.5 drives, one for the dos and one to save on. LOL Can I say I learned to type on a electric typewriter? Yes, I can. But being past 40 doesn’t feel any older than when I went past 20 or 30.

Chronicles, ummmm---I am female. I have a picture up over at Wild Child through the author’s page if you are curious.

Hmm.

Well, when I was about your age, Uberslacker, I was able to take a special class at the university for high school students in which I learned a little about computer programming using a language called Fortran IV. I put my programs on computer cards and fed them to a UNIVAC 1108 (the same kind of computer that got a man on the moon--I won't tell you how old I was when I watched that happen, though).

Later, when I got into college, I learned some about programming with Basic.

I had my first computer (a desktop--still don't have a laptop, FWIW) before you were born--8086 I think it was, two floppy drives, and very little RAM.

I have since had at least five other computers. The one I use the most has Windows 3.11 on it (I love DOS, but <sigh> ).

My favorite word processor is a true dinosaur (it came on that first computer and is older than you are) and while I can use Word Perfect and MS Word (and have them on another computer), I still like the dinosaur best.

My philosophy? Keep what works and make good use of it, but be able to use whatever comes along if it will do a better job for you. Be open to progress, but don't throw out old stuff just because it's old.

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I'm appalled that Kathleen prefers Windows 3.1 I'm more a 95/98 kinda guy. Or, if I could, a Windows-None kinda guy.

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We are MOT going to get into a "my operating system is better that your operating system" battle here, okay?

That said, I wish to point out that I did not say I prefer 3.11. Rather I said the computer I prefer using has 3.11. What I actuallly prefer is DOS 6, but you can't do much with that any more.

The other computer I use has Windows 98 and I'm fine with that. My dinosaur word processor won't run on it, though, and that's why I keep the older operating system around.

Everyone can laugh--my fav word processor was one of those smith corona ones. The one that had the seperate monitor and you feed sheets into it type-writer style. What did it do that others don't do even now?

It did a word count on the top 25 words you used. Told you howmany times you used the word "that" for example.

And my fav version of WP? the old 4.2 yellow on a blue screen. I'm dyslexic in the extream--and that color order helped a lot with catching mistakes.

I can make WP 2002 blue with yellow letters but then every screen on the computer is dark blue--and I can't read the black ont he blue at all.

No not a my op system is better than your op system but a this is my fav is ok, I think. I findit interesting anyway.

What do we run. One PC with 3.11, one Windows 98, two Windows 2000. NO XP yet.

And I liked DOS 6 as well.

The irony is . . . I utterly detest Microsoft. *sigh*

Kathleen, believe me when I say I sympathize with you regarding your older word processor. And DOS. Dos was cool. (Well, UNIX/LINUX is still around, and it's close enough to keep me happy.) Personally, I miss the days of Word . . . 2.0? I think. Way back a long time ago on the Macintosh while it was still a screen surrounded by plastic. (which it has become again . . . go figure)

But I'm happy with MS Word of today and tomorrow. As long as it keeps running, I'm happy. (though don't EVER use it to write HTML. *shudder* *shudder*)

I use one called 4dtude.

Tried to use Dreamweaver, but it simply overcomplicated everything in a quite ridiculous manner.

In my free time, I just designed a website for my dad's/brother's business completely from scratch, completely in raw HTML code, and for just raw, straight HTML. I can't stand using Word for HTML editing. Anytime Word finds a document that's in HTML, it lays it out, then inserts its own styles EVERYWHERE in EVERY tag, and makes the whole thing convoluted, unintelligible, and 10 times the size it originally was.

Other editors are better, but I still find that Notepad is just fine for my purposes. At least my recreational purposes.

But Word 97 can't handle certain elements, such as javascripts, which is why once the basic tables, text, and pics are dealt with in Word, Notepad is required to finish off and sort out details.

I'm certainly no expert on these matters - necessity has simply taught a few basics.

I prefer using raw html code, too, Falken.

I'm no expert, but I've found that I can figure out what I need from looking at the source pages of webpages I like, and if that doesn't do it, I have also used Netscape Composer to set up what I want and then seen what the html is like for that, and adapt it to my needs in raw code.

Re: titles

You could use Notepad to edit a single HTML page. But for a project of any size, why not leverage a little technology? I suppose you could also hammer nails with the flat side of a rock, or use Notepad to write your next novel, but why? I like watching the guy on the 'Old Yankee Workshop' build furniture using hand tools--but when I build something, I'll take my Black & Decker over a hand-cranked auger every time.

I'm with Falken224 on not using Word to create HTML. Let's expand that to not using any Microsoft product. FrontPage has the same problem as Word when it comes to HTML. Make a few small style changes, and both programs spit out the worst looking HTML you'll ever see.

I will defend view source though. It is a great tool when you just can't seem to figure out how someone got their site to "do that". I don't think Kathleen or I meant that we copied someone's code only that you can learn by taking a look at what they did.

JK, hmmm I didn't even think of that with the CD--yes if he is reading the story on the CD or it is written ont he CD then he is walking a thin rights line.

No, the CD isn't a narration - I found myself composing an orchestral/mediaeval soundtrack album on my Korg while writing.

So I put it on the net for free. Sort of a marketing tool.

One of the tracks made number 1 in the classical charts at mp3.com for 10 days this June. Still in the top ten, I think. Not bad for a site boasting over 1.5 million listed tracks.

I use the listening royalties I earn there to pay for the CDs I give out.

Hmm...is that why no one from here wanted the CD...'cos you all thought it would just be my voice droning on about rain for 4500 words?

I noticed the following on your homepage:

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To commemorate the publishing of CHRONICLES OF EMPIRE, 200 soundtrack CD's will be given away.

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Has COE been published, or are you referring to your own posting of the sample chapters in your online library?

There's a big link entitled "music", under the title header on the homepage, that takes you straight to the soundtrack page on mp3.com

The 200 CDs giveaway thang was originally a marketing ploy to get people to register in the forum, and thus give me another hook for the agents - ie, mailing list equivalent. The deal being to send the CDs out when the first "Chronicles of Empire" book hit paper publishing, which would be some time away, and the advance would cover some costs.

Mr. Whipple
I'm your junior by more than a decade, MrWhipple, but even so, I once owned a TRS-80 and an Apple IIe. And as a teenager, I wrote some software on a Data General Nova system that had a 5MB rack-mount drive that was so heavy it took two people to carry it! We used a typewriter with a serial interface for a while as well--it was the only thing that could make an imprint through the six carbons on our invoices! That printer/typewriter was so loud, we gave it it's own room. (It had a killer typewriter ball ... remember those? http://www.beware-of-art.com/journal/200110/typewriter_1.jpg )And while we're reminiscing ... Remember acoustic modems? So, you may be the 'old dude' here, but you're not the only one with memories of Z80s and 300 baud modems!

Maybe someone should start a tech topic ...

For example, one of the Hatrack group members has an instruction sheet on how to use the tracking tool in Microsoft Word to comment on Word documents in much the same way that someone would write on a hard-copy manuscript.

I was trying to stay on topic by mentioning wordstar. There are a few SF writers who are big fans of WordStar like Robert Sawyer

http://www.sfwriter.com/wordstar.htm

Anyhow, several of you are older than me but I can say I still have copies of my earliest programs on paper tape and that I (with some of my friends) wore out the single-step switch on an altair 8800 doing our assignments for our machine language (not assmbly, not high level stuff, real men program on the bare metal!) class.

I've used every version of WP since 4.2 DOS up through 8.0 windows and Word since 1.1 for Windows to XP.

Two asides that might interest you all. I make my living teaching other people how to use every possible feature in all of MS Office (and Bill Gates is no friend of mine). So, if any of you ever have technical Qs about things Word can or can't do let me know.

Second, there is something odd about Word XP. While working on my current novel I found that for reasons I still haven't discovered it did something to the file that caused it to triple in size. I fixed the problem by telling it to save in an earlier version of Word, but I have no idea what really is going on. The file leapt from around 250K to nearly 1 meg and when saved in an earlier version when back down to the previous size.

So far the latest version of the grammar checker in Word XP is about the only thing I like better than Word 2K. Just thought you might like to know.

Dave