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» Hatrack River Writers Workshop » Forums » Open Discussions About Writing » Outlines... yay or nay? (Page 2)

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Author Topic: Outlines... yay or nay?
Gen
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quote:
Responding to earlier, my cat bites me till I put him on my head when I write.

Wow. See, this is why I wish I had cats. Are they transportable through the internet? Can I borrow someone's cat through FTP protocol?


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teddyrux
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You can't transfer a cat through FTP, not yet anyway. There is a rarely used protocol, CTP, which is desiged for just the situation you described. CTP is the Cat Transfer Protocl.

Rux
;]


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Kolona
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To outline or not to outline, that is -- or at least seems to be -- the question. Cat protocols notwithstanding, if anyone seriously thinks they're going to find a definitive, one-size fits all methodology...<wicked laughter>

Why not follow the experts? <more wicked laughter> For instance, according to Snoopy (who has his own opinions about cats, BTW):
Danielle Steel: One year to write outline, a month for first draft, eighteen months for editing.
Ed McBain: Never begins a novel till he has a solid title. Doesn't "believe in detailed outlines because once a book has been outlined too rigidly, the rest is only typing -- and that's no fun."

Why drive yourself insane? For as many writers as there are, there are as many variations of the outline vs. free-write methods. Do whatever works for you. And whatever works will probably vary with different projects for the same writer. Vive la difference!

And adopt a cat.

[This message has been edited by Kolona (edited April 17, 2004).]


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srhowen
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I couldn't agree more--adopt 2 or 3 cats. LOL

And I also think every writer has to find what works for them. The best way to find your way to do it--try the ways others do it.

Make sense?

That's why there are so many "how to" books out there. You will hit a method that works for you and it will be a huge bright bulb going off. For me this was that danged "you are so sick of hearing about" Feb 2000 issue of Writer's Digest and a book called "The Complete Guide to Editing Your Fiction" Writer's Digest books. Now very dog eared and marked up.

I started there and it worked for me. Then I refined until I have my method--which BTW I don't recommend to most people. It is not easy, and it takes practice.

But once you find your way, and we all learn by mimicking others, your writing will take off.

Sorry if this sounds pompous and bossy, not intended that way at all. All of the above is IMHO--intended only to help others.

Shawn


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cvgurau
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A question for those of you who write as the King does: what do you do when you write yourselves into a corner? Or worse, when you write yourselves into a corner and don't know how you did it? When you get stuck, you just can't go on, and you don't know why?
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srhowen
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back up out of the corner and start at a previous point where the story was going well.

Most times this corner happens when you try to make the story go your way. If I do get into one--most times you do know right where you started into the corner.

You just have to admit it and then be willing to back up.

Shawn


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AeroB1033
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quote:
back up out of the corner and start at a previous point where the story was going well.
Most times this corner happens when you try to make the story go your way. If I do get into one--most times you do know right where you started into the corner.

You just have to admit it and then be willing to back up.

Shawn


Good advice, though it could be argued that it's quite possible to "write yourself into a corner" by being "truthful"... that is, you can sometimes get yourself into a really tough spot simply by having your characters do exactly what they would do. This can be especially tricky when it comes to motive, but there can also be problems when it comes to extracting the character from some situation or taking the plot in a direction that allows the story to continue and/or end in a fashion that was set up by the beginning. If all of that makes sense.


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Alias
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I think it could be fun to write like King does, but whenevr I do it my story either self-destructs or lives horribly unbalanced. Without a proper outline, I'm screwed. I think for a lot of other just-beginning writers this is the case, and less guideline is needed as skill and experience progress--but maybe that's just me.
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srhowen
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Could be.

But I've always written this way--fly by the seat of my pants.

Outlines can be explained and taught.

The BIC fly by way is either something you can do or you can't.

IMHO

Shawn


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Alias
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I don't know, Shawn, all evidence suggests I can't. But that's not a nature thing, I bet if I gave the time and effort I could, it just isn't my more natural method.
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danquixote
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quote:
you can sometimes get yourself into a really tough spot simply by having your characters do exactly what they would do

If that's the case, I wouldn't try to force character's behavior, but perhaps there is another conflict, some subplot, some ... thing missing that your story needs to "encourage" them in another direction.


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Survivor
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I can write by the seat of my pants, but the problem is that the story is over the moment I do that. My characters are too darn smart to do things the hard way just to entertain the reader.

For one thing, either my villians turn out to be unbeatable superheros in disguise, or they decide to give up being villains, or they are just idiots compared to the heroes. If I just fly by the seat of my pants, then either the villians change sides, the heroes change sides, they both come to a reasonable accommodation, or somebody is a total idiot (usually the villain) that is no match for the opposing team.

The big problem is that when my heroes get uber-smart and solve everything, they usually do it in a way that completely disregards conventional notions of morality. I've written a couple of stories about that kind of thing, but they're probably a bit disturbing to most readers.

I let the characters write the story, and they're like, "well, the readers all have thumbs to suck, and you don't have a plan, so we'll do it our way!"

I personally love the stories they write. But I'm a bit of a socio-path that way. Most people shudder.

So I have a goal, and constraints, and objectives. I don't allow my characters to have their druthers...they'll just take the audiance apart and laugh at your expense.


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Pyre Dynasty
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I sometimes write the King way, and when I write myself into a corner. I do what King does, either go for a walk, (and we can see where that got him) or blow something up. (his example about his blockage in the Stand) If you've written yourself into a corner that means you havent realized something that's there. You need to back up and see what you have.
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