When I joined here years ago now, and at that same time surfed other bulletin boards I wondered why don't we see OSC, Hickman, Rice or any number of mid-list or lower list writers on these boards?

I think I know why. Time is a big one. With doing the next book and keeping up with marketing the first, time is the thing in shortest supply.

Next would be when your value to a community is gone. And it seems my value here is gone.

I have always done all I could to help new writers--now it seems I no longer do. I've helped them write query letters that sold stories, got people agents. I've worked entire years with writers to help them build their craft.

Now, I don't make constructive posts, I romanticize writing as art, don't understand the hard work part, or the craft . . . I now discourage writers.

My posts come across as snobbish.

When it is said that there are painters who are not technically proficient and it is used to compare those who write one way and those who write as I do with no outline as proof that somehow I do not understand the craft or the tech--well I could post copies of my degrees, but then I would be a snob.

A friend and an editor of mine and my hubby read the posts of late and both asked why I wanted to put myself through it, why waste my time where obviously my experience and know how was not needed.

Thing is if you go back to the start, my posts are the same, in the same tone, offering the same this is how I do it tone--

My hubby who has followed this BB for years as I contributed said of the above--what changed, Shawn, is that you made it to the next step, now they read your posts and say she just thinks that because she has an agent--what a snob.

Welcome to the ranks JB, with an agent and major publishers I wonder how long it will be before you also become the board snob. You already are that way to some extent as far as your attack on me, on romantic art vs the true way to write.

So I have to say when the value of a person's posts is lost and they become the rage-induced-aphasia poster it is time to move on.

As to a constructive post--how about a post on how to outline vs this dumb which is right and which is wrong-- which is a non issue--it is not that important! what is important all you newcomers that I may have slammed or harmed, is that you write--everyday. It is that you are willing to grow and learn and put in the hard work. YOU must find your own path and there are many things that work--try them and if they don't work for you move on.

As to how to outline--well it may surprise some of you that I do know how, that I have taught it. Gee I can even write technically correct plot strong stories without one.

Anyway--before I scare Survivor I best stop.

Good luck to each of you. And stay away from PA.

Shawn

Best of luck to you.

Oh, damn dignity--please don't go!!!

:P

Hopefully, we shall meet in some area of life. Until then,

I didn't read the post before because it was yet another outline/no outline post. I haven't been here that long and it's been done to death.

Anyway, I am truly sorry to see you go. I've always valued your comments and opinions.

I personally don't know but maybe one or two people here and I usually don't have a bad thing to say about anyone. But it is your decision to leave and if you do, well, I'd have to say: Please remember all of us here.

Thanks for being here and helping out when and where you could.

So I looked at the thread. I saw the same old opinions from the predictable sources. I failed to decide to change my own method but continue to have respect for others' methods.

....and then I saw it explode. What happened?

srhowen, I think that many of us have been angry enough to leave from time to time. I have entertained the notion before, especially when I realize how much time this site takes from my active writing pursuits, even for one such as me who has managed to work full time on writing because of a supportive husband.

But as I isplit apart my day into tasks I realize that taking myself away from places like this takes something meaningful out of my life. I spent a certain amount of time every week reading, a certain amount of time every day writing on my novel, a certain amount of time planning for my next novel, and I donate a certain amount of time each day to providing feedback for other aspiring writers.

I do this for me, because I expect people to return the favor in due course. But I also do it because it makes me feel good when I see a problem with someone else's work that they could not or would not see themselves; or maybe they just did not know how to solve it. I feel like I have a lot to offer because ever since a little over a year ago when I began to work full time at the craft of writing, I have taken it VERY seriously. I have not written the entire year, rather, I have tkaen months to sit down and study the craft through books, on-lilne courses, and OSC's boot camp, not to mention practice, practice, practice. I have often found myself agreeing with you on many things.

But you have one advantage I do not....you have made it to the next step: becoming a published author. I sit and hope that my abilities will some day be validated. I send out short stories in the hopes that a partial validation will come soon and I work endless hours to try to make a finished ovel happen by the end of 2004...but without the publication credits it is difficult for me to take myself seriously, let alone justify it to others.

You and I don't agree on outlining, as it happens, but who cares? It's a highly charged, highly opinionated topic with two distinct extreme pointns of view and some middle ground that people don't often cover in their emotinally charged debates. I at least respect your approach and believe it to be worthwhile. Heck, it's proven itself for you.

I'm starting to ramble, but the point is that I hope you don't go. I've never found your posts to be any snobbier than anyone else's. W e all speak as though we know what we're talking about from experience when the vast majority of us don't have that experience.

If you leave, though, I will understand. I hope you do not let this one debate make the decision for you, but I know that there does come a time to move on from an amateur site like this. Namely, when you stop being an amateur. I appreciate your presence and even hoped you would still be around to repeat your advice at the end of the year when I start marketing my novel, but I can find someone else.

There is value in helping people along, but one thing you have to get past is that not everyone wants help. This is why I've becoe pickier in F&F. I won't usually help someone who hasn't gotten past the point of bad grammar or structure. I also won't usually help people who try to defend their work. (I have broken both of these rules before, only to reaffirm them each and every time.) But it is often the silent ones who benefit most from your advice, even the lurkers who have not yet presented themselves.

I am always amazed at how quickly things can get out of hand. But where opinions rule, so do ego's. The thing about posting on a BB is that unfortunately words don't always transfer to the screen the way you intend them. People have varied styles of communication and somtimes it comes across as snobbish or rude.

I know that when I first came aboard, I was fairly defensive about what I was posting. That is just because I was new and was trying to find out where I fit in. I have since had time to relax and grow. Now I feel much more comfortable in my writing skin, so to speak. I don't really try to defend my opinions anymore because it doesn't do any good, they are just opinions. It is rare here that more than two or three people see things exactly the same. And that is a good thing. Otherwise we would all be puting out the same drivel and there wouldn't be any unique or standout stories or writers for that matter.

I for one appreciate the "long timers" opinions. Sometimes it is wisdom, other times... Well, lets just say I consume what is good and throw away the rind. I think we are all here to learn and bolster one another in our efforts to become published writers. I ain't just doin' this for fun. Fun, yes, but it is work too. But, it's work I look forward to everyday after my regular job.

So, Shawn(if I may). I will say that I have appreciated your honest, straight forward, no-crying-whining-screaming-baby type of advice, or "opinions". Leave if you will, but I will miss "having my skin thickened" by one such as yourself. And thick skin, in my opinion, is very necessary if writing is what we choose to do.

If you do choose to go, good luck.

I feel very fortunate to have found this board, and know I have benefitted from the discussions lead by veterans such as yourself, and newcomers who brought up things I might have felt too shy to ask.

BBs do take time. So does eating and sleeping and - wait, what was that last one???

I hope that if you choose to leave, it will only be because you truly need the time for something else. But if you like being here, and you like sharing (for those of us lucky enough to read what you share), I hope you reconsider. Do not think your value is lost - it has, instead, multiplied. The diversity is necessary. (I'd like to think that ANYONE who decides to stop posting does so either due to other obligations or for time issues, and not because they felt uncomfortable or useless for any reason.)

However, it is selfish of those of us who want you to stay to ask you to do so. You must make the best choice for you. In all things, as we all must.

And actually, I would not be surprised if some of those more famous professional writers who we aspire to follow DO sometimes look at a BB, or even throw a post in. They certainly don't need to use their real names... Even they need a break from their writing, or to connect with the rest of us. Might OSC not take the occasional peek here? Or throw a bone to us to gnaw on? It's not like we'd KNOW!

I would hate to think it is all one way, and that the published writers among us feel the discussion is one-sided, that they don't get anything out of posting with aspiring writers. That said, it is very helpful to have published writers among us that we KNOW about, to give us that dose of reality us dreamers need.

It is great to have you.

Whatever you decide, know that I have never had an issue with your posts, and your tone seems reasonable to what you post. I wish you the best with your book, and hope to see more posts from you!

And the notion of romantic notions. I don't mean "romantic" like that. I was merely stating the the idea of writing is sometimes greater than the writing itself. As far as outlining goes, it is just a tool. Some people need it, others don't, and I personally feel that it is wise to advise new writers to use it. Why? Because most new writers don't have much experience at pulling together cohesive plot. When Stephen King tells them not to outline, and their first book is a wreck because they didn't think it through, they're liable to give up. I've talked to too many aspiring novelists that that's happened to. But that's just my opinion, it's not an attack. It's like giving a kid training wheels.

You talk about NOT seeing the pro's here. And, as your career progresses, how you won't be here either. I for one take your leaving as a great loss to the community. Sure, heated debates happen, there's no stopping that. Sure, some people find you to be a hair brash and cutting . . . good! You cut the bullsmeg and tell the truth, when so many other people are scared too. AND, you are one of the most experienced writers here.

I'll tell you what, above all else, I feel bad. Partly because I don't really care whether I belong or not. I don't have any real friends here. This site is just a place I come, I read, and I spout off at the mouth . . . err, fingers. I hadn't read any other recent outline posts, and if I had I certainly wouldn't have started an irrevelant one. I can't apologize enough for making you feel the way I did, and I certainly wasn't trying to grandstand anyone.

For me, I guess, this site is a release. In an everyday reality where no one understands the world I'm facing as a writer, I need understanding. I need validation. We all do. It's that conflict that keeps people posting, that keeps them coming back. It's the intellectual discourse that YOU bring to the table, with your experience and wisdom.

We don't only want you here Shawn, we need you. You're right--OSC isn't here (at least, out in the open), Hicks isn't here, Jordan, Bradbury. . . . Most people don't know why they're here. They don't know what to do. You tell them. In a way, that's almost been your job. Yes, sometimes people don't like it. But that's too bad. Don't leave us one MORE pro short.

Yeah, uh, I've been a little redundant. I should edit. Or delete. Or just take a step back, and hope there's some way I can apologise enough. The newbies don't deserve to lose you. . . . Neither do the rest of us. The ones who just want to socialize. Maybe we just need someone strong to understand.

And I'll recommend them to all the newbies. 24/7 PA. You'll be able to buy the Hatrack boxed set from their website, for only $35,000. It'll be a new golden era. . . .

Look, SR's time is her's to spend as she wishes. And as she has other things to write that she can sell...hello? She can write a book about writing and you can all buy it.

This site is provided by OSC, on his own dollar, and run by volunteers. SR is not obligated to contribute, particularly if she doesn't feel valued. But even if she is valued and we tell her not to go, she is still allowed to leave. Take a hint guys, OSC, Hickman, Rice...lots of writers don't spend a lot of time here (though a number do spend money on keeping these boards going, which we should remember).

I've given up on a number of BB's where I didn't particularly feel like spending my time (I tried to get kicked out of one or two but couldn't muster the necessary number of offenses without transgressing the bounds of good taste). As long as Shawn doesn't change her profile e-mail to something invalid, you can still contact her if you really need to do that. She can be your secret friend...the one that doesn't have to put up with publishing her writing for no money ever.

I know my little opinion doesn't amount to much here, but I did want to sincerely thank you for the things I have learned from you. When you post, I sit up and take notice. You have helped me shift my writing paradigms into something more useful to me and my scribblings. Thank you, from the bottom of my heart. I will miss you...

And just for Reference I have seen Hickman on a site like this.

http://pub124.ezboard.com/bthebronzecanticlesvillage

I see both sides of the issue that boiled over in that other post, so I don't suppose it's worth rehashing the debate. I will say that sometimes people make comments that on the surface seem pretty brutal -- I know I've definitely been guitly of that myself in the past. I liken it to tough love...I teach private lessons and I know I'm not doing anyone a favor if I cast roses at their feet each day. Any comments designed to help us grow as writers and get us closer to our goals/dreams is a good comment, no matter how painful it may be to hear.

Some of us need to just make sure we keep the personal stuff out of it (myself included)...and the rest of us need to realize that many of the comments made are merely a healthy exchange of ideas, not a personal attack.

With the quality of my writing I've had more than my share of negative feedback!! But I persist and appreciate all those who comment on my writing or ideas--positive or negative. One person even went so far as to write me personally to apologize for the critique he gave me of a story of mine. He didn't need to, but it was a nice gesture.

...but I'm babbling now. Bottom line, lighten up folks. We're all here to help each other, no matter what level of success.

Your posts were genuine, your help sincere. Not one word was snobbish.

I, too, have marvelled at the sacrifice you made to come here so often. So much brainpower shared for free when it might have put bread on your table or fuel in your tank. Surely these are the acts of a friend. You are a good person, Shawn, and it's been a pleasure knowing you.

As you leave I ask of you only one thing: