I love Fragments and Feedback. I've been helped and I hope that I've helped other people. It's a great way to study things that work and don't work even if I'm not willing to do a full critique. It's always interesting to read comments that don't agree with mine.

But lately (for a while, actually) there has been something bugging me. It manifests, in part, as a problem that there are so many new frags on F&F all the time that I can't keep up with them all, but more than that...When I look through them, I am amazes at the number posted by new members who have never participated in any other part of this forum, whether in open discussion or on F&F.

I welcome new members to our family and I hope they get a lot out of this, but here's the thing: Looking back over past threads I can't even count the number of people who have posted a fragment, gotten some feedback, and never participate here again. It makes it so I don't want to help out the new members and I do have a bias for helping regular members when there are so many choices and limited time.

I'm not sure what they were looking for. Sometimes I think they expected their work to be praised and couldn't handle the honest feedback. Maybe they got busy or maybe we just weren't ehr ight flavor for them. But frankly, I think it's rude to waltz in here, get some help, give little or nothing in return, and waltz back out.

Many other forums on the web ask that new lurkers on the site spend some time reading before they participate. I have begun toying with the idea of asking new members to participate before they start asking for help. I would like to see them respond to other critiques and even offer to read an entire piece or two before they post their own fragments.

I've noticed that the same few people keep responding to all the fragments and I fear it's because some of our older and wiser members can't spend their time on all the pieces. I've even noticed that some people are only responding to established member's posts. I would like to welcome and respond to new members, but I would also like to feel as if I'm not wasting my time. I no longer feel like giving them the benefit of the doubt.

In other communities where I've hung out this is explicitly and emphatically stated, and the culture strongly encourages that behavior (as compared to it just being a statement that is ignored). As far as I know there isn't any kind of statement like that here, and the culture is very supportive of new people posting work for crits right off.

So while I think that it is common sense to become a member of a community before asking favors from that community, I don't think that there are the systems in place to enforce it here, either culturally or in publicly stated "rules of the road." I support changing this, but I think it will take some work.

"Welcome to Hatrack! We LOVE newbies! For lunch!!! Just a piece of advice from an old timer--you're more likely to catch flies with honey than with, well, nothing. What I'm saying is that in order to make the most of Hatrack it's essential to build a relationship with the others here. And you do that by contributing. Make it a goal now to give as much as you take here at Hatrack and you'll be one of the gang in no time!"

When I first found Hatrack, I lurked for a good length of time, probably 6 months, I also read all of the back threads available. All of them.
That in itself was very informative.
Finally, I decided I would try participating. At the same time I felt like I had to submit something. Who am I to tell someone what's wrong with thier frag if I never put one up for them to shred? So I did both at the same time.

I don't know if folks need to start throwing around opinions first, or whether they should put a frag out there first, but at the least, they need to read the threads that are most current and maybe some of the archived ones too. If nothing else, it keeps the same topics from resurfacing over and over.

They also need to read the old threads to understand the "unspoken rules". Otherwise they will cause problems for themselves and everyone else.

1. You have to put your stuff out there first, put yourself on the line or you have no right to criticize others.

2. You have to volunteer to hep others by critiquing their stuff or you have no right to ask for their help.

I am obviously in the second school.

Still, I think there is a compromise. We have a forum here called "open DIscussion About Writing" where people can participate in discussions, offer views, and ask questions before they get into the critiquing thing at all. Then, when they post a story they can immediately begin volunteering to read other's work to show their good intentions.

I nominate Survivor.

I'm with NewsBys. I didn't lurk for as long, but I still felt uncomfortable commenting on someone else's work without putting my own in the chum for the sharks (read: fellow Hatrackers) to chew on. I felt it was rude and presumptous.

Of course, I also thought it was rude to put my own work out there and never comment on anyone else's. I tried to strike a balance. I think it worked. I hope it's still working.

Although I understand your sentiment, Christine, I don't like the idea of requiring something to participate. I didn't immediately apply for a group because I didn't know if I had the time. I've since learned I don't. I critique when I can and if that had been a requirement when I first registered at this bb (like Critters with its average of one crit per week), I might not have participated at all.

However, you're right. It's not fair for people to put a fragment up, no info about word count, genre, or anything and then either argue with the responses they get or just disappear. "Newbies" need to give as good as they get (in every way <g> ). And remember to send in their critiques! Don't leave the author hanging!

The problem with that is I really don't want people with no clue what they are talking about muddying up the worthwhile critiques I am trying to receive.

I personally do not critique stories that do not grab my interest. There are plenty of good stories here that do. Maybe I should offer more critiques to new people even if their stories are boring or poor.

But with that said I am raising a house full of kids, trying to be a husband, working 40plus hours a week, producing a magazine, and trying have time to write and participate in the forums here. I don't see myself spending more time on pieces that hold no interest for me. Nor do I expect people to critique my stuff if they do not like it.

Slow down! Wait a minute!

LOL

I haven't suggested any strict guidelines, requirements, or terms for being a member here. I haven't suggested that you have to know in advance if you can put your life on hold for htrack and I hope I didn't suggest that you have to put your life on hold. I'm glad that I can go away and come back and still be welcome. I'm glad others can, too. Life happens, and I am frankly offended by groups that require constant attention and participation in order to be a member.

I never suggested a number of critiques given per critique received. I never suggested a certain amount of time or posts made.

I suggested courtesy. I suggested that if you all you went is a fly-by-night ciritue (or pat on the back) of one story with no follw-up or participation, then you should go elsewhere. I suggested that you should not waste our time unless you've at least poke your nose around here a little bit (how much is entirely subjective) and decided that this board and the type of help we can give is for you.

I suggested that you have to reep what you sew.

In the last few months I have critiqued dozens of pieces in the hopes that new members would like it here and stick around. I've been disappointed so many times I've nearly stopped bothering. In fact, with one exception I haven't volunteered for more than the 13 lines posted here for a new member in a long time.

Skaggs...you may have a point about clutter, but I submit that we should encourage opinions and suggestions as part of what we do here. I trust the members to be able to sort out good comments from bad, and if not we can start up another thread about interpreting feedback. For that matter, I won't hold back if i disagree with someone else's feedback on the board. You don't have to send a story to anyone you don't like.

One of the things I think is wrong with our justice system is manditory minumums. We don't seem to trust judges to judge anymore. In that same vein, I don't want to establish artificial rules for the perfectly intelligent members of this site. I think what I would like is a message at the top of Fragments and FEedback suggesting that new members take some time to get comfortable before diving in, that they check out the open discussion and post any questions or comments, and that when they do finally feel ready to post a fragment that they also provide feedback to others.

No offense, Suvivor, but I think your logic and insight would frighten away most newcomers. Maybe it's tact, maybe it's brilliance...I don't know; but I know your posts have a certain flair that are uniquely yours.

Seriously, I have a great amount of respect for Survivor and his comments. I don't always agree with them, but that's just the nature of things.

You have to admit though,... having him in the welcoming committee would certainly weed out the undedicated.

However, my spare time is just that: spare and little. As a result of my limited time, I participate when I can and how I can.

I have submitted "Olympus" about 5 times or so and have gotten very positive remarks for it, and IF I had the time, I would absolutely love to go through someone else's work and critique it. I'll be happy to get a few stories for critiques, short ones for now.

Being busy (read life) happens to everyone so try to be patient when it comes to giving or receiving critiques. We are here to provide encouragement and goodwill amongst the members here.

So if anyone agrees or disagrees with me, let me know.

I guess I'm rambling now too, so back to the forum.

I think he should be on the welcoming committee.

Of course I don't know if the newbies would understand:

POV

I don't know what the appropriate solution is, but I like the idea of a welcoming committee of sorts -- the nominees so far seem like good choices.

I like to seen neonates posting intros in Open Discussions and getting involved in the community in a variety of ways. Perhaps inviting the newbie to formally introduce themselves could be a function of the welcomers, a subtle way of encouraging them to give us a little more than just 13 lines and taking crits. I especially like it when the intros do more than say "Hi! I'm So-and-So." I like it when they try to get a bit of a discussion going too.

Because I remember mine. It was classic, and absolutely spot-on. Yeah, it took me a few days, weeks, months to see it, but I saw it eventually. And he was right. Bless the poor sod for putting up with some horrible fiction from me. If anyone wonders why he is the way he is, it's probably that he's read more bad stories from all of us (at one point or another) and this would make anyone a bit jaded. But he still persists, so you've got to give the man huge kudos.

Anyway, I'm kidding about making a topic.

Sorry for taking this off-topic.

[This message has been edited by Kickle (edited February 18, 2005).]

Listen, this isn't rocket science and it's not outrageous. I want a little common courtesy around here if that's not too much to ask. I don't care what the reason is that new people come along, post a fragment, and disappear never to be heard from again. I don't care. But the fact is that I'm dont reading their posts until they prove themselves in even the smallest way, such as by poking their nose in other fragments and on the open discussion forum. You can all do
what you want, but I am done.

quote:

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It is my feeling that quite a few people find this site , post on fragments with good intentions and then realize that they have jumped into deeper waters than they intended to.

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So....how exactly does this make it a bad idea to ask these people to find out how deep the water is before they jum pin?

quote:

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I think making access as easy as possible allows that one in a hundred devoted writer to find this site and perhaps allows a spark to be lite which might not of been if there were committees and requirements before posting on Fragments.

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I think continuing to allow access the way we have is causing 99/100 newbies to walk all over us. I think it is discouraging old timers from using the forum because there are so many new stories a day that no one can keep up with them all. Go on...look at all the old threads and check it out. There used to be a couple of new fragments a week. Now there are a few new fragments every day and most of those from new members who never return.

Furthermore, that 1/100 person who is seroius and finds a spark here will find it whether they have to be polite or not. Serious people are not put off by a polite request that they share with us instead of take from us.

BOTTOM LINE:

I want people to be polite. Everything else that's been mentioned here is superfluous.

[This message has been edited by Christine (edited February 18, 2005).]

As a newbie, this looked like the perfect spot to join my first open discussion. As for myself, I joined this site for purely selfish reasons: I needed help with a writing project. Fans of behaviorism will say, "But, of course!" But even the need to exchange fairly with a community is core behavior in most humans. Sometimes they just need to be reminded they're in one.

On a practical note: when I first started lurking (albeit for a very short time), I found myself looking for a FAQ or description of how F&F functioned. I really didn't find anything specific, and going back through the threads was a little daunting, so I just took the plunge. Even a FAQ entry that said, "The F&F forum is open to all and it has no rules, but if you join in, please play nice with the others" would've been more helpful. It probably wouldn't be a big deal to petition Kathleen to install a little note about etiquette that newbies could find easily. As far as a welcome wagon, I kind of had the idea that you guys had an informal one already (got that from the threads I DID follow and from the response I got to my first frag. post).

On a philosophical note: healthy colonies of organisms grow, and it invariably pisses off the original or "proprietary" life-forms. The responses range from the draconian to the apathetic. The healthiest response is probably somewhere in-between.

I think you all have a great community, and I appreciate the fact that you're here.

I have to admit, I look at this more from the perspective of sorrow over the new members that unwittingly subject themselves to the full fury of Hatrack style critiques without having familiarized themselves with the forum. I don't worry that anyone is taking advantage of me (though there have been some infamous incidents with really onesided exchanges of sincerity in the past). I worry about aspiring writers leaving the forum with a bitter feeling (and no inclination to take the advice they've gotten) because they just got drive-by machine-critiqued for the first time. That's time and effort that is truly wasted. Worse, because even the most amateur writer contributes to the overall literary community in this day of instant publishing for everyone. If those writers are embittered rather than improved by our forum, it's a loss to all.

But it all hinges on whether or not we can do sticky posts or something similar with this forum. I'm not sure how much control KDW has over those functions.

P.S. as an original life-form that has always filled something of a "predator" role on this forum, let me say that I'm generally delighted with having fresh meat

I find this site confusing because it's a public forum and it's difficult to get to know everyone. Hats off to those who take the time to try, like Christine and Survivor do. It takes a while for a new member to adjust to this. That's probably why I still consider myself a new member.

Conversely, this is a strenght of this site. It's diverse. If you throw something out there you never know what you'll get back.

I'm all for introductions to help the newcomers adjust, but I always assumed group discussion rules were reserved for private groups.

I look at the public forums (especially Fragments and Feedback) as the area that private groups pulled from. I joined with the intent of finding other people with my interests, people willing to teach me in return for what ever I could provide in return. It's happened to some extent. I'm still trying to figure out the private group thing--and from the recent change in policy regarding group formation, I see I'm not alone.

The enthusiastic newbie can easily feel intimidated by the old-timers. Doesn't matter how nice they are. When one sees a group of people exchanging quips and laughing about characteristic tendencies of each other, it's a natural tendency to feel like an intruder. It's very scary being the new kid at school, especially in a small-town community like this.

Just as the newbies feel intimidated, the vets feel threatened. A vet has invested a lot of time and effort in reaching his or her current status, even if it is subconscious. I remember getting so defensive if I thought some newbie was trying to take over my role as chearleader or sage-in-chief, while consciously reminding myself that newbies are a good thing and necessary to the community.

It's tough being on either side of the continuum, but it's hard to beat out these natural tendencies.

I'm sure I'm not alone in feeling that it would be out of place for me to begin shredding the work of people who have been here a long time and are probably much more accomplished writers than I am.

I have "lurked" as ya'll call it, in the other forums to learn the overall "voice" and format that is acceptable. I also feel that people come across different in print than in person and things that would not be offensive in person, could be taken wrong in a forum. So I am taking the time to get to know all of your "voices" so that if and when I post a fragment, I will have a better idea of your true intent when you bluntly criticise my piece and will be less likely to take offense. I also hope that people will learn MY voice and therefore not take offense when I bluntly give my opinion on their work.

Like you have said about Survivor, I tend to be blunt and to the point. It comes across much harsher than I intend when read on a page by someone who does not know me well.

I also have not posted a fragment because I know that I am easily swayed by others' opinions still (I'm working on thickening my skin) and I would prefer to be so far into my WIP that even if someone completely shreds it, I will not quit.

So, there is a different perspective from a newbie regarding the F&F. Take it for it's worth.

A welcoming committee would have been great, and a place just for intro's as well!! You all are quite intimidating though fun to watch bantering back and forth adn it would have been less fearful entering conversations.

There are lots of people who want to be writers, just look at any of the pics online of the slush piles. The problem is, not many want to put in the time. They just want someone to praise their creation...yep, this has been discussed before as well. So there will be an ever increasing number of people who come hoping for praise, and leaving when they don't find it. When we submit a story we are looking for it's failures, that is what we need to find and fix the problems. I know I rarely (unless something strikes me as really good) praise much of anything in a story I critique. If I like the story I say so, but I'm not going to waste time saying how wonderfull each line is. Most newbies don't understand the process is more to show the weaknesses of the story so they can be improved. I think the best praise I could get for a story is that someone couldn't find anything wrong with it (not that it has ever happend).

I see it as the person doing the crit is doing you a huge favor by reading your story and letting you know what they thought. It's not a matter of shredding it, or even necessarily offering expertise - just reading and reacting.

Offering your own work up to be read isn't doing the people who do the crits any favors! (Although I like reading and commenting very much and I'm glad people do let me read their stuff.)

My role as a writer has changed since I signed on here and my personal time and needs mostly take precidence now. I struggle and go back and forth with my dedication to my craft, but I try to keep at it. So I think I am like Christine in this manner, my time is important to me. It is my most coveted commodity.

I did appreciate the fact that when I submitted my first frag. back then, that I recieved encouragement, and good suggestions. I think that type of critique, at least early on, is important. I have yet to see feedback that was specifically meant to be hurtful. Although, I do see some very pointed comments occasionally; not entirely bad, and sometimes necessary.

quote:

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The enthusiastic newbie can easily feel intimidated by the old-timers. Doesn't matter how nice they are. When one sees a group of people exchanging quips and laughing about characteristic tendencies of each other, it's a natural tendency to feel like an intruder. It's very scary being the new kid at school, especially in a small-town community like this.

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It doesn't help that when you post threads that you get smartass or outright rude comments in return. I'm not accusing anyone of this but I am saying it doesn't help to foster a sense of welcome to the newbie trying to fit in. So a welcoming committee is probably a good idea as long as whoever does it can stay on top of it and get everyone.

At one point I thought I would like to critique other's work in frags and feedback but then life got really busy for me and I have not been able to. I would like to post work there but I will not until I am able to return the favor.

Those that are committed to improving their writing will stick around regardless of how they are initially received. Besides, the atmosphere here is actually quite friendly -- yeah, we bicker from time to time, and some of us (ahem... maybe me) are a bit rough around the edges, but you're going to get treated far worse elsewhere, I've been told.

And the fact is: Those who have stayed the course and participated on Hatrack have become far better writers. You only need to go back into the archives and have a look to see hundreds of examples of this. Hatrack, in my opinion, has some of the finest aspiring writers out there.

So, while we'd like to be able put some sort of control on newbies, I'm not sure if we really need to. Each individual can decide if they want to "risk" doing a critique for someone new, or if one prefers, ignore them until they've shown a willingness to actively participate.

I'll continue to hammer away at the newbs, I think. And if I help them in any way, then I'm happy about it. I don't necessarily need reciprocity -- although that's always nice. I learn more from critiquing than I do from being critiqued, unless Survivor tears my work to shreds, of course. I feel I'm getting more than my fair share of help by doing so.

quote:

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So, while we'd like to be able put some sort of control on newbies, I'm not sure if we really need to.

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<sigh> I was sure I answered this at least three times.

I don't believe that anyone here has suggested controls for newbies. So far, the suggestions we've received were in the form of a welcoming committee and a more informative FAQ that helps newbies understand what they're getting themselves into by posting and what might be considered polite (ie responding to other posts) on this forum.

I know I said this:

I just want some common courtesy.

I'm a stickler for common courtesy as well. I really do get what you're saying. And I agree. If a welcoming committee is formed, then I'll support it fully. From personal experience, FAQs are often ignored due to people's excitement over the idea of posting on a forum.

You don't necessarily need to go through and critique line by line or even recommend changes. And please don't think you're inexperienced. Chances are that you have been reading for a long time. That's the only experience you really need. Everything else is just everything else.

... I think. Maybe.

I realized spending nearly a grand a year at my bookseller's qualifies me somewhat, for what do I do there but stand for hours in the aisles before a dizzying array of titles trying to choose from among them? I often find myself with a book in each hand, alternately stuffing one under an arm while I check out the other's prologue and/or first chapter, trying to decide which of the two (three or four!) interests me more, which I think I'm going to like better, which is going to be the better and more satisfying read.

That, I recognize now, represents the very basic skill I need to bring here. And now I also know that it is the most that a lot of us expect of one another in the first place.

And that's a big part of why I like to keep coming back to Hatrack.

Edited to correct the impression that I evaluate books simply by stuffing them into my armpit!

quote:

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And please don't think you're inexperienced. Chances are that you have been reading for a long time. That's the only experience you really need. Everything else is just everything else.

... I think. Maybe.

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That's pretty much my take on it in a nutshell. Anybody that has read a few books is qualified to give an opinion.

I have some stuff to share from the symposium, but I'll get to that later.

Right now, I want to tell you that I would love to be able to put some kind of Welcome message at the top of the Hatrack River Writers Workshop page that would stay there.

I can create an Introduce Yourself area and have that be at the top, but any topic that isn't posted in continually will sink to the bottom of the page and after 45 days you have to ask the software to show it to you.

If I can find out how to "sticky" a topic or post so that it doesn't sink out of sight (and I've tried to find out from time to time), I'll be sure to set something up that way.

The thing is, when you start at www.hatrack.com and select Writers Workshops, you see a page that is supposed to explain how the forum works. (Please, go look

http://www.hatrack.com/writers/writers/index.shtml

and give me suggestions on how to better explain things.)

I suspect that people may read that page once and never read it again, if they read it at all.

I really appreciate your help in improving the forum, and I would be willing to consider asking new members to participate in the Open Discussion area until they have posted enough to graduate to "member" status before they post in the Fragments and Feedback area.

That was quick, Kathleen.

Couldn't see any reason to wait on the Introduce Yourself board.

I am a very private person trying to get out. I took the step and made my first post on one of the “introduce yourself” threads, then made a couple of posts on another thread.

This was my experience. Not one single “Welcome to Hatrack” and my comment was trashed. So of course, I haven’t posted again until now. I will post in Kathleen’s new ‘introduce yourself’ board and try to start on a better foot. And Please don’t take me wrong. I’m not looking for anything special, just a friendly hello. After surviving a year in the writers group I have pretty thick skin and I am fully aware of my skill level and am not offended by critiques of anything I might post. I probably will not be a heavy contributor because of the nature of my work and my time, but I do want to continue to be a part of what’s going on in the forum.

(edited to say - I thought I had thick skin but obviously it wasn't as thick as I thought since I was bothered by the response I got. Oh well. I guess I'm headed back to therapy.)

Thanks.

MC

Um...I vaguely remember you posting your intro and a couple of run of the mill posts in some "opinion poll" type threads, but I don't remember any of your comments ever being so much as contradicted, let alone "trashed"....

So, will there be an official welcoming committee formed now?