posted
I want an explaination, and a timely one at that.
I can understand that you wouldn't prefer to have younger writers here... that is fine with me. But to cut them off without an ALTERNATIVE??? I find it quite disturbing that this banner was put up ONE DAY after I went through the trouble (about 4 hours of my life) to create a separate group/forum SPECIFICALLY FOR people younger than 18 (actually 20 but that's irrelevant). I planned on using Hatrack to contact them so they could work in a group of the same writing level... and now that flow has been cut off to my JUST STARTING group as well... and I could complain all I want, but really you're only doing a disservice to people who want to write... is it too much to ask that instead of being shunned they be redirected? I think not.
posted
Well, this forum was always intended for adults, hopekeeper. Hatrack used to have a dedicated young writers forum, but it was shut down when it degraded into chaos, trolling, flame wars and other childish antics.
I suspect that what is happening now is firmly reestablishing that this forum is still for adults only, perhaps a bit belatedly. There are alternatives out there, though this site is under no obligation to redirect you to them. In fact, this site is a courtesy for authors. It's free for us and paid for by OSC. He can do whatever he likes, whenever he likes. He could shut it down tomorrow and we would have no redress. But he owes us nothing... if anything, we are indebted to him.
So... does that put your mind at ease? Probably not.
Instead of making your complaint, you could have politely e-mailed Kathleen and asked for permission to advertise your new forum for the young writers as an alternative. Though I can't speak for her, she has been extremely generous in the past.
But whatever. This site owes you nothing, hopekeeper. Life owes you nothing. Get used to it.
[This message has been edited by HSO (edited August 12, 2005).]
Hopekeeper, what makes you think that you are owed anything whatsoever? It is perfectly acceptable for OSC to decide who he wants to access the forum and who he prefers to not cater to. There were several reasons for the under eighteen forums to be shut down, and I think that one of them was ingratitude and attitude problems from the younger writers. Unfortunately your post rather reinforces that stance.
If you want to be treated seriously please try not to presume on people's kindness and act like this forum is a right. It is a priviledge. I for one am thankful for that priviledge, and do not take it for granted in any way. Try to approach it from that angle in the future and you may have more success as well as fewer disappointments.
posted
Well, there you are. Two timely explanations! I certainly wish that my timeliness had been more... timely, so that I could have answered first. What a missed opportunity to vent!
Unfortunately, I probably wouldn't have been as nice as HSO or autumnmuse.
It is a basic mistake to believe that benevolence confers entitlement. With any luck, you'll learn that. I hope that you do.
[This message has been edited by mikemunsil (edited August 12, 2005).]
posted
The teens' forum devolved into flame wars? Too bad.
I'm sad to see this notice at the top, myself. I like the idea of gradual entry into adulthood, rather than suddenly at 18 or 21. Maybe we could train younger heads. Maybe we also could remind ourselves -- even now -- when somebody issues a flame: "Maybe it's a stealth teenager. Do I really want to get into a sparring match with a teenager? Shouldn't I act more adult instead?" And then if we find the flamer is 52, we'll still have behaved ourselves.
posted
I don't really think whether or tnot it's a godod rule is at issue here. Neither is the age that children gradually slip into adults, which we can all agree cannot be defined with a number except in a legal sense.
No, what is at issue here is that the owners and operators of this forum have set in place a rule for the use of THEIR site. Their FREE site.
They have put up a restriction, a reasonable restriction on many levels though I understand, and am sure they do, the arguments against it. But even if they were pig-headed child haters, this isn't a democracy. The users don't get to vote on the policies set in place here. If they wanted to restrict access via password-protected registration, they could. If they wanted to make you pay for accesss, they could. If they insisted that everyone submit a story about evil robot monkeys before granting access, they could!
But they don't charge, or require passwords to access the site, only to post, nor have I ever written a story about evil robot monkeys (my loss).
Thank you, Mr. Card and Kathleen, for hosting a place where aspiring writers can come and chat.
[This message has been edited by Christine (edited August 12, 2005).]
posted
The issue is really about maturity. Age, especially during the teen years, is often an indicator of maturity. One doesn't expect the same behavior out of a 13 year old as one does an 18 year old.
Young teens have tendencies to behave in ways that may be developmentally-appropriate, ie expected... but those behaviors tend to be disruptive to this forum's purpose. Rebellion, snarkiness, silliness--those behaviors are expected when you run into a teen at, say, a local mall.
But here at Hatrack we have adult writers who are seriously attempting to better our skills. The time we have spent trying to keep the topics on track, to remind younger folk that rudeness is not acceptable, and to reinforce the minimal guidelines--say, the 13 line rule in F&F--has been pretty significant. It is no small thing. And it's been pretty annoying.
Teens aren't the only ones with behavior problems, but they are the majority of it. We've seen an influx of the issues I've described since OSC had to shut down the Young Writers Forum.
No one is checking your I.D. at the door to verify your age. But the "for writers age 18 and older" is another way of saying: "Mature, adult behavior only."
It's OK to ask ALL the participants of this board to conform to the standards of mature behavior: professional intent, respect, politeness, and willingness to adhere to the established guidelines.
posted
I tend to go with Elan's interpretation of the intent of the statement. This forum has always been intended as a place for people that were serious about the craft to engage in mature discussions.
The message is simple, "Act childish, and you'll be asked to leave." You can replace "asked" with a more forceful verb if you like.
The other point, that this site is private property and subject to any rules the owners or appointed operators see fit to impose is very true. But this forum has no policy against requests for explanations of its policies. And hopekeeper was posting as a registered member. The content of the post may seem a little childish for such a delicate matter, but that's a matter of taste.
All that being said, let me put my own interpretation on this. It is a simple fact that most of the serious writers on this forum are over 18. I'm sure if we bothered to go through the member list and find out the ages of every member when those members were actively posting, we'd find that a slight majority of them were under 18. We'd also find that most of them weren't terribly serious about improving their writing skills.
The statement, however intimidating it might look, is just the plain truth. It isn't a new rule or anything (it's not new, and it isn't being imposed as a rule). It's a reminder of the purpose of this forum. It's stated in bald terms so that the target audience--children who think they're serious writers because they're so passionate about it--will get the message. One of our standards for being a serious writer is that you enter this forum determined to contribute to a mature discussion, regardless of your age.
posted
I suspect that at least some of it has to do with potential liability if a writer sends a story for critique that contains "adult" material.
Posts: 2022 | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
I think it also helps with the content of the stories or ideas being thrown around. Not to once again sound like the resident pervert, but there are R-rated stories and themes brought up here from time to time. Not in a gratuitous manner, but not in an all ages manner either. You don’t have to worry about corrupting the youth with the first thirteen lines of your work in progress.
JOHN!
EDIT:MaryRobinette- beat me to it...great minds and all...
[This message has been edited by JOHN (edited August 12, 2005).]
posted
I think you are all misunderstanding my stance on this... I never said that we SHOULDN'T be split off, and the only point that I saw which I hadn't considered yet concerned the fact that this was a private forum...
No, I never feel entitled to anything. No, I don't feel that anyone here is required to help us out. All I was trying to say was that it seems a little unfair, and perhaps it WAS just a coincidence that it showed up a day after opening my forum... in either case I agree that I was acting childish, demanding an explaination like that... but please try to understand where I was coming from before labeling me as an immature teenager. You see, one of my main reasons for CREATING my forum was so that it would detract the younger users from here... I know when I was here I was overwhelmed and I felt sorry for myself because I was "no good" at this... but then after spending some time with my other writing friends, I decided that it was simply the environment. Not to say that this environment is bad, but it is simply not targeted at people my age. So when I made the aspiration to start something out which could in turn help out many many people, I just felt a little confused and angered after seeing that where I intended to find the majority of my members there was a discouraging banner which prevented them from contacting ME... well you get the point.
So in summary, I appologize, and I appreciate your upfront answers, but I will not move my stance on the fact that I feel slightly wronged. (yeah it's a private forum... I know)
And I want to say to anyone my age reading this--if you are the kind of person who screwed us over, I don't appreciate your lack of maturity (possibly hypocritical I guess) and how it seems that "someone will always ruin it for someone else." So please, grow up, or at least attempt to. Then maybe, just maybe, these things won't HAVE to happen...
posted
hopekeeper, I just went down and found your post about the other forum and I think it's a great idea. I cannot imagine that the timing is anything but coincidence. Perhaps you and Kathleen can work something out to divert younger would-be members of Hatrack to your site instead. I noticed that you wanted them to conatct you before you provided them a link, which may be a good idea. This could still happen with a link that says something like: "If you are under 18 and interested in joining a writing group..." link to some way to contact you.
I have to be honest, I haven't really considered this from the point of view of the teens who feel potentially overwhelmed here. I suppose I might have considered it except that I felt as if they were intruding on my territory. This was a place for adults to discuss writinf ro years, and I have noticed a maturity shift lately. I wish I could say it was "one person ruining it for everyone else" as it so often is, but in this case I don't think so. I think, respectfully, that for a variety of reasons the culture of youth has hurt this site. I can't name names. I can't point fingers. I won't, even if I could.
There *is* a maturity shift that happens sometime after the age of 18 (several years after, but 18 makes a convenient legal cutoff). I have always thought it happpens when "kids" leave their parents home and go off on their own for the first time. I nkow that's when it happened for me. As a senior in college, I could pick out the freshmen a mile away. Why? They hadn't hit the maturity shift yet. By the end of the year, most of the now sophomore were indistinguishable from anyone else.
I'm glad you pointed out the flipside of this, the overwhelming nature of a newbie being thrust into the mix with people who are on an entirely different level in terms of not only social maturity, but probably also writing. (Not always...I've seen some of the high schooler's writing samples better than some of the adults, but life and experience is not on your side.) In five or ten yeasr, those of you who stick with this will be highly competent writers and valuable assets to this site.
posted
I guess I'm going blind and senile since i started a second thread on this topic. KDW can nuke it if she wants.
Posts: 2 | Registered: Aug 2010
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posted
In high school, I worked on the school literary magazine. I worked with a lot of aspiring teen writers. I can't name one who would have gotten along well on this site. It's an unfair generalization to say if you're not eighteen you have no place, but by-and-large, it's true. As a teen, I think (hope) I would have been an exception to this category. I wrote every day, I read articles in Locus and bought a copy of Writer's Market. I wrote a novel and spent a year polishing it; then I wrote another novel. I was (and am) very serious about writing. But, I've never met another teenager like that -- who browses the bookstore for SF publishers they haven't heard of, who sees "Tor" on the spine of a book and instantly thinks "Patrick Nielsen Hayden." All the teens I know spent more time talking about Art, becoming a Real Writer, and being Famous, than they did writing.
I managed just fine without a writer's group through my teen years. I was busy soaking up all the articles on the SFWA site, reading books about writing, and doing a lot of writing. Now that I'm a little older, I feel like I actually have something to contribute to this site. I realize now that writing is hard work that I ultimately have to do on my own. I don't come here for someone to hold my hand and show me what to do.
I realize this point isn't even up for debate: it's OSC's choice. I just happen to agree. And I'm very grateful for this wonderful site where I can come and talk with real writers who are serious about their craft. I'd like to think I'm one of those people who could have fit in here before I was eighteen. But, you know what? It didn't hurt anything to work on my own for those years, either. I learned a lot.
posted
I think teens need a place to find there voice but I have to say that I'm not surprised about the new anouncement. Things have gotten a little crazy over the last few months and if that one sentence will help then I think it's great. But I do feel bad for the young people who HAVE been behaving themselves. Unfortunatly the one rotten apple can spoil it for the whole bunch.
As to what Mary said: I recieved a rather explicit story a few days ago that I had offered a critique on. I cringed to think that a young person might accidentally get their hands on it. It was fairly horrifying. I myself would have rather forgon the pleasure but I had no warning of it's content. I mentioned to the young person (I believe it was one of our teens) to put a warning in their post, but as yet have not seen it there. I'm thinking of sticking one in the thread myself.
quote:As to what Mary said: I recieved a rather explicit story a few days ago that I had offered a critique on. I cringed to think that a young person might accidentally get their hands on it. It was fairly horrifying. I myself would have rather forgon the pleasure but I had no warning of it's content. I mentioned to the young person (I believe it was one of our teens) to put a warning in their post, but as yet have not seen it there. I'm thinking of sticking one in the thread myself.
Once I get an offer, I usually give a warning even if it's not that explicit of content, since diferent people have different sensibilities.
I was under the impression that everyone should be 18 or older, so after I gave a warning, I didn't feel bad about who got it.
A warning is all well and good, but when I was under 18 watching cable while my parents were in bed, and saw a movie come on that said, "The following movie is Unrated. It contains, Adult Content, Adult Themes, Adult Language, Adult Situations, Nudity, and Strong Sexual Content..." I knew I'd found exactly what I was looking for.
So, for everyone involved, it's kinda good the 18 and up rule is in place. Sorry to hear about the teen/young writers' forum, though.
posted
First off, I’d like to say that I enjoy having young writers on this site. I find their enthusiasm has often been just what I needed to help me quit complaining about all the difficulties of carrying on an adult life while try to be a writer. However given all the terrible things that some adult are doing in the way of seducing teens by mean of relationships started on the internet, I have been concerned about sharing my writing with anyone under 18 . This has nothing to do with writing only with the fact that if I were a parent, I’m not sure I would want my teen corresponding with any adult I did not know via email.
[This message has been edited by Kickle (edited August 12, 2005).]
posted
Just so you all know, the notification about the forum being for writers age 18 and older was placed there because of the concerns discussed in the first half (more or less) of a topic on the subject:
Because of those concerns, I talked to the Powers That Be about a clarifying notice.
This does not mean that we are going to "card" anyone (interesting term in light of the identity of the Powers That Be) to make sure only those 18 and older post here or participate in the forum. It just means that we expect participants to behave with maturity and to be aware that we are not encouraging or catering to those under 18.
This is one of those kitchens you should probably stay out of if you can't handle the heat.
posted
I just found it interesting that the notice is posted inside the bootcamp areas, even though that is a prerequisite for the bootcamp. It must be a global field in the html code.
Posts: 2 | Registered: Aug 2010
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posted
Kathleen, be sure to tell The Powers That Be that we deeply appreciate this place to congregate. We promise to keep the litter picked up, the tables wiped clean, the refreshments stocked, and the music at tolerable levels.
Posts: 2026 | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
This is one of those kitchens you should probably stay out of if you can't handle the heat.
My point exactly... but if the ones who can't stand the heat can't get to my place either, then they miss out.
Of course, I'm talking about those people who will be so intimidated by the banner that they will cease to even lurk here... and now that I think about it, lurkers will still be able to contact me if they desire, so all is well.
posted
Keep in mind there are always multiple avenues to advertise a product... or a website. Do a few Google searches, you'll come up with plenty of writer's forums. Some may be willing to do banner exchanges or other mutual back-scratching.
Posts: 2026 | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
If you put meta-tags that say something like "under-18 writers" or "young writers" in your home page html, it will make it easier for the search engines to find you.
Posts: 8826 | Registered: A Long Time Ago!
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posted
I would like a teen to come on this board and have the gall to actually be immature. I mean at eighteen, I would have been cowering to press the reply button for fear of the scorn and hate I would receive, if I intended to be anything other than courteous. No, I am not a goody-goody with the inability to do wrong, but no matter where you are and whom you are wtih, you do dread being hated, even on-line. Plus, anyone who does not feel that dread is either in jail or on some other more populated message board.
Posts: 162 | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
Unfortunately, that's not true. I've been here since February, and I've seen quite a few rude people come and go. Many claimed to be teenagers, a few didn't specify. They all acted immature, regardless of what their actual ages were. If you wander through F&F and look for locked topics, you'll find some of the worst ones.
posted
Sorry. I went through a week or so ago and deleted most of the locked topics. Couldn't see any point in keeping evidence of immature behavior around.
Posts: 8826 | Registered: A Long Time Ago!
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posted
Oh, that's cool. I agree, no reason to clutter up the board with immature behavior. A few did have interesting discussions before they devolved, but I'm sure we'll be having similar discussions again in the future.
posted
Well, I left one because the discussion was informative until the person who started the topic began attacking a critiquer. (You think arguing with a critiquer is bad? Wait till you see someone verbally attack a critiquer.)
Posts: 8826 | Registered: A Long Time Ago!
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posted
Wow, Mystic. If you really believe teens don't dare post anything inflammatory, you never saw the crap they were passing around on the Young Writer's Forum. It was a serious hate-fest over there. AWFUL!!
I, personally, laughed out loud and clapped my hands with GLEE when I saw "This forum is for writers age 18 and older," at the top of the page. YAY!!!
Do I hate teenagers? No. I just spent 4 days with 15 of them, whom I love dearly--all girls, no less. But there are places and situations appropriate for teens and places and situations which should be sanctuaries for adults. Hatrack has been MY sanctuary, and the Immaturity Invasion nearly ended my association with Hatrack.
Halleluja for the Powers That Be! Thank you, OSC!! Thank you, Kathleen!!
posted
Hello. I noticed this topic and thought I might as well put in my two cents worth, just from my own particular point of view. I haven't checked this site in a while so I guess I've missed a lot from what it sounds like. I didn't even know there were such things as locked topics. Anyway, here are my thoughts. I am writing as a student who is under 18. I am 17 and will be 18 in February. There's my confession. I try to act mature while at this site (not just this site but whenever I'm online in general) although I'm sure I seem immature at times to anyone who cares to examine carefully. The main reason I post here is because of what happened to the young writer's forum. I love writing. When other people are chatting at our table at lunch I will sit there and jot down the beginnings of a story. I get a lot out of reading what different people write on here and what they have to say about all the different aspects of writing. Even discussing ideas here gives me new insight about things I can write about and how I can polish what I've written already. I'm not saying that the rules should be changed, nor am I trying to say that I am mature enough to post here (after all, I did hide my age on this site, not that mature). However I do think that those under 18 can benefit greatly from older writers like you all who know more than we do. I know that several of my stories are now better off because people have critiqued them on this site and I've attempted to heed their advice. As of yet no one has ever accused me of being an immature teenager, but maybe that was only a matter of time. Who knows. That's just my input. Thanks for listening.
One more thing: Now that my "secret" is out, if anyone with authority wishes me to leave this forum I will respect their wishes and do so.
posted
I actually didn't notice that written on the top of the page until recently. I most certainly understand if someone acts immaturely and is asked to leave, but I (as a 16 year old) feel that I deserve to be here. I have alot to input, and my style is worthy of improvement. Thanks for raising the topic!
Posts: 35 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
I just read some of the other comments left on the site...Listen, I respect all of the writers on this site, some of them have greatly helped me with a story I submitted. If I saw people invading my sanctuary, I too would be disturbed and angry. But the reason I joined this site is because the other "children" my age dont understand the intricate details of weaving a good story together. They're too busy wearing their pants below their bottoms and cursing at teachers to ever worry about doing somehting worth while. I am not like that. I love this site, and I was looking forward to a long relationship with the professionals on it. I was hoping to refine my style, not to be attacked for my age. If someone wants me to leave, dont hesitate to ask me to do so. Just know - you'll be losing someone who can and will contribute a different perspective and a unique style that's sure to impress even the site's veterens.
Posts: 35 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
No one is asking people who act maturely to leave. As had been stated above, the main point of the banner is to make people aware that immature behavior will NOT be tolerated.
So far, mythopoetic and RagDoll, I have not seen any behavior that is immature to the point that we wouldn't want you around. Just keep participating as you have been.
I'm sure Kathleen, if she agrees with me that you are mature, will also agree with me that there is nothing wrong with having you around.
posted
For the record, I would prefer if all those under the age of 18 would find someplace else to go, regardless of maturity.
Obviously, as this is the internet you can pretend to be whomever you choose and I will never be the wiser -- not even if you act immaturely. I have known plenty of adults to act like teenatgers. The trouble is that all teenagers act, to one degree or another, like teenagers. I have never met an exception.
Acting like a teenager is not the same as acting immaturely. Some teenagers, are a part of their rebellious whatever they're trying to do, become entirely rude. Rudeness is not the same thing as acting like a teenager. I believe it may have been this rudeness that disrupted the young adult's forum.
I respect that many teenagers here have "behaved" themselves. But I still don't want you here.
I originally went into a long-winded discussion of what acting like a teenager meant, but I decided to nix it. The important thing is that there has been a shift in the culture of this site, the shift that nearly drove people like dakota and myself away. Cultural shifts are hard to describe, but basically, this place is feeling more and more like a high school to me -- and I HATED high school.
[This message has been edited by Christine (edited August 16, 2005).]
posted
Anyone in the world can come here and read what has been posted. It's an open forum.
I personally don't see anything magical about the age of 18, and I've known people much older than 18 who act like two-year-olds. We have to have an official cut-off age though, and 18 is considered adult for legal purposes.
If people under 18 post here, the only way we'll know for certain that they're under 18 is if they tell us that. I don't think I've told anyone my age, after all. As long as you don't drive away the people who are supposed to be here, the people for whom this forum is intended, I won't ask you to leave.
Just remember that you can't use your age as an excuse, and you can't expect special treatment.
posted
I think I should include one other point. I've been here long enough to notice that people can learn and that time passes. A sixteen-year-old who is teachable will become an eighteen-year-old in less than two years.
It is my hope that that eighteen-year-old will have learned good things here (by giving as well as receiving feedback) in those less-than-two-years.
I believe we might even be glad to have such eighteen-year-olds around because they will have been raised right.
posted
Thank you, Kathleen. I will make every effort to learn as much as I can from this forum. Christine, while I respect your opinion and refuse to start an argument (because that would just feed the opinion that I dont belong here), I plan on staying on the site. Its not an issue of "behaving myself." I am a good writer, and reguardless of my age, I, among others, feel I belong here. Ill try not to turn it into a high school.
Posts: 35 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Just know - you'll be losing someone who can and will contribute a different perspective and a unique style that's sure to impress even the site's veterens.
Is that supposed to be mature? I don't know a single veteran here who would--even after publishing in pro markets or winning WOTF--trump himself up like that. Maybe humility is a sign of maturity?
As a 37-year-old first coming to this site, I felt like an infant among giants. I looked up to them. I feared them. I had to work hard to gain their respect--I most certainly did NOT expect it because I said so.
I feel very much like Christine. I'd rather Hatrack be a sanctuary. If I want to spend time with teenagers--even helping them with their writing--I'd rather do it by MY choice, not their insistence or deception.
posted
Im sorry, "deception"? I never made any mistake about my age. And being confident doesnt make me immature. I greatly respect every writer here, and I hope to gain much from them, even if I merely observe there conversations with no contribution of my own, but I dont feel I need to be afraid or lowered to participate in this group. I know I am good. Ofcourse I need improvement, but that doesnt change the talent I already have. Im surprised by this backlash because of my age. When I first learned of this group, I was very excitd to be participating with "real" writers and professionals, rather than being told im good just because im being compared to kids with C averages. Im not trying to upset or disrupt anyone else here, so I dont understand why im being so victimized. I dont expect any special treatment, I dont believe I've submitted anything juvenile or childish, why can't I just be left alone to work amongst you, not as a child, a burden or an annoyance, but as an equal. Its rediculous to assume I couldn't possibly have an intelligent thought just because im not 18. Please - Give me the chance to prove myself worthy. I know I am capable of churning out great works, dont stifle that pride and ability in me just because you have a poor conception of minors.
Posts: 35 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
I don't normally say this, but with your lack of punctuation you losing any chance of respect for yourself or your writing. People like to think you've taken effort over your post and not just written something in a high state of emotion. Just because people do not agree with you doesn't mean you have to take it personally. You have the right to believe what you want and so do the rest of the members here.
I have my own reasons for not wanting under-18s here. I've really not enjoyed the site much over the last few months. It's not just the arguments, but also people flooding the F&F board.
posted
My post above was me sharing my personal feelings. That's all. There's nothing I can do to act on them save spend more time at another writing site I frequent and less time here. I sometimes feel I spend too much time here anyway, so it's not a huge personal loss.
But just to clarify a few things:
1. This is a site for discussions about writing. It is not necessarily for "serious" writers and trust me, talent has *nothing* to do with it. I imagine we would all have different ideas about what that meant anyway. 2. No one, myself included, "deserves" to be anywhere or do anything. That sense of entitlement can be anywhere from dangerous to disappointing when misapplied. At the moment I am not so much trying to decide who "deserves" to be here but who has a place here -- in thinking about it that way it may, in fact, be me who needs to go. 3. The word "or" in the English language is typiccaly an exclusive or -- meaning that only one of the elements on either side is true. It is a confusing article since it can be an inclusive or, which we sometimes write -- incorrectly -- as and/or to make our meaning clear, but I believe in Dakota's post it meant the former.
posted
Before the main portion of my post, I'd like to say that I don't mind teenagers on this site as long as they behave themselves (I would say "like adults" but I've known too many childish adults). 18 is not a magic number: 3 is.
I remember what it was like as a teen and I have to say I sympathize with RagDoll. That said, I also sympathize with the older members here.
I used to frequent a site where people could submit their entire manuscript for free and have others review it. Often, these writers were teens. What turned me off eventually was a combination of three things (laying aside basic writer's mistakes).
First, most of the writers in the sections I frequented (Fantasy, Romance, Mythology) were either writing about high school or were basing the drama in their stories on high school dramas. Often writers in this group let their fantasies take over the story, completely ignoring how adults actually act. In fact, I could often tell who was still in high school simply by the lack of reality surrounding the adult characters (a result of the "generation gap" we've artifically put around kids in school as a means of glorifying childhood).
Second, the ones who didn't do this tried to be "edgy", or, bless their hearts, "original". Often this meant shock value, not an organic story. After reading a few of these, I got the feeling that the writer didn't have enough real world experience to create the depth he/she needed to take her writing to the next level. The only cure for that is time.
That's why I disagree with teen writers who say they can hold their own with writers who are much older. It's not a matter of writing ability: it's a matter of life. They haven't lived enough yet and the only cure for that is time.
The third item pertains to the quality of critiques and isn't germaine to the discussion except to say that they were rarely helpful.
My point with this long post (sorry) is that, like I said, I don't mind teens who behave themselves. However, I don't think teens should expect adults to react to their stories with the same enthusiasm that an adult would show another adult.
posted
Okay, I'm leaning more and more towards Christine and djv's position on this.
Why?
Because of the kind of posts we're getting from the under-18 crowd in this thread.
If you're going to argue that you're mature enough to contribute to a forum for adult writers, then start by making your arguments persuasive to adult writers. Yes, that means leaving the teen-ness out. Yes, that means paying at least some attention to such basics of writing as spelling, punctuation, and grammar. Yes, that means making arguments based on facts or sound logic rather than emotion and personal hurt (though such arguments can be used sparingly to juice up an otherwise dry point).
Look, I don't have any problem with thinking that persons under a certain age are necessarily lacking in ability to write and write well. But by the same token, I don't have any patience with teens and their teenness. I don't look back on my own teens and cringe, but I don't look back on them wistfully either. I don't look back on them at all because I never went through them.
But that doesn't disqualify me from commenting on what I'm seeing here. So if you want to be considered mature enough to post on this forum, then start by making your posts more mature. That's all anyone is asking.