posted
I recently got a crit in my group that I used too many "he said" and "she said" attributions. One critter wanted me to use things like "he mused" or "she confided" etc. The thing is, a lot of writing experts condemn using anything other than "said" as an attribution, so I've tried to keep it as unintrusive as possible by minimizing the detours from "said" in my attributions. What are your thoughts?
Posts: 440 | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
My advice is to avoid saidbookisms. Too many confided's and mused's are obtrusive. Said's are invisible.
If you feel that there are too many dialogue tags, it's possible to find ways of avoiding them without resorting to "he communicated".
Examine each tag to see if it is necessary. I think you need to avoid long lists of dialogue that's unattributed, as that forces the reader to play the "he said, she said" game. That's only fun where you discover that a line of dialogue has inadvertently been omitted . However, sometimes it is possible to eliminate one or two tags where it's obvious who is speaking.
Try using this construction:
David sighed. "I want to go home."
No tag, but it's clear who's speaking.
Or this:
"That's typical." She tossed her head. "You always whine."
(Okay, that second one works best where you don't have more than one character of that sex in the scene )
Although it takes some of the fun out of reading, you can probably find other workable alternatives to "he said, she said" if you examine how dialogue is attributed in anything you happen to be reading.
[This message has been edited by BuffySquirrel (edited October 27, 2005).]
posted
The examples BuffySquirrel gave are known as action tags. Please notice that they are separate sentences (set off by periods instead of commas).
Action tags are probably the very best way to avoid "he said, she said" if you think you're using "said" too much.
Not only do they provide an alternative to "said," but they also provide a little more action, characterization, and, it is to be hoped, interest in a story than "said" can.
I personally recommend using them as often as possible.
posted
With dialogue, the most important thing is to make it clear who is speaking.
The word said is invisible and can be used pretty much every time you have someone speaking.
If you don't have to use said because you can follow action with the dialogue, dont't.
Avoid over using alternative tags. 'said' is invisible, chided, replied, exploded, shouted, exclaimed, etc... are not and can render a piece of writing laughable. Use them where they fit, not everytime.
Avoid using said in the same place every sentence.
"Blah blah blah," he said. "Blah blah blah," she said. "Blah blah blah," he said. "Blah blah blah," she said.
Instead,
"Blah blah blah," he said. "Blah," said she, "blah blah." He said, "blah blah blah." "Blah blah blah," she said. "Blah blah blah." "Blah," she said. "Blah blah."
posted
I've recently noticed that I tend to use alot of dialogue in the form: "I'm bored," he said, twiddling his thumbs, "there's nothing to do."
Is it a good/bad idea to add those action phrases after said very often, or should I probably go back and try changing them to "I'm bored." He twiddled his thumbs. "There's nothing to do."
posted
While it's true that "said" may be invisible, consider the impact of having your piece peppered with invisible units.
Posts: 366 | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:I've recently noticed that I tend to use alot of dialogue in the form: "I'm bored," he said, twiddling his thumbs, "there's nothing to do."
Is it a good/bad idea to add those action phrases after said very often, or should I probably go back and try changing them to "I'm bored." He twiddled his thumbs. "There's nothing to do."
In general, either approach is fine. What's probably most important is to vary which ones you use. If you have a lot of dialogue constructed in exactly the same way, it will eventually stand out as a pattern. What you want is to avoid having the reader notice how the story is put together .
In the example you give, I would be tempted to choose the first approach, as that suggests to me that he's twiddling his thumbs while he's speaking. The second version suggests that he speaks, twiddles his thumbs, stops, then speaks again.
posted
I'm going to have to disagree, Ms. Squirrel. When you consciously try to vary patterns like that, it often calls more attention to the fact that you're trying to make it different all the time than having it be constant would. How many readers would really say, "Man, I can't believe he always uses action tags for his dialogue." Few to none.
If you are trying to write invisible prose, that is words that the reader doesn't notice because he's to wrapped up in the story, changing structures constantly can ruin it and make the prose completely visible.
posted
I'm with Buffy on this one. I'd also prefer the first option unless I meant to indicate a pause in the conversation.
Repetitive rhythms are lulling and I prefer to keep my readers awake and willingly attentive. One of the first things I notice about veteran authors versus novice writers is that novice writers strain my brain with their attempts to avoid using the word 'said'.
'Said' is invisible. Avoid it when you can, but it will not hurt you to use it a lot.
But, always, always, dialogue or otherwise, vary your sentence structures and your paragraph structures.
[This message has been edited by pantros (edited October 28, 2005).]
posted
I'm a proponent of the said is invisable thing. But there are times when another verb is warranted. Like when someone mumbles or yells. Basically when the verb means something. None of that Intoned/Expectorated/Magnamoried stuff.
Posts: 1895 | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
A word of warning; "said" is not invisible. It's usually unobtrusive, but it can becoming screamingly and horrendously visible.
John Norman, among his plethora of sins against taste, exhibited this in some of his "Gor" works. His dialogue frequently ran as follows:
"Yes," I said. "No," she said. "Do not contradict me," I said. "I'm sorry," she said. "So you should be," I said. "Forgive me, master," she said.
And so on. For a page or two at a time.
(Eventually, and inevitably, they stopped talking and she got a sound spanking, for which she was truly grateful as it made her realise how fulfilled she was by her rightful place as a subservient being... blah blah blah. When I was growing up, this stuff was actually popular, big-selling science-fantasy. Thankfully, even then, I had the sneaking suspicion that it was, in fact, deeply twisted and just plain wrong...).
posted
I just got done reading the book "Dialogue" by Gloria Kempton. I highly recommend it. Not only does she give you the basics for intriguing dialogue, but she shows you how to effectively weave it together with narrative and action to achieve a nice balance. Some of the exerpts she used as examples were from Stephen King's books. I thought it amusing that those exerpts violated King's own recommendations in his book "On Writing."
I think the important point of dialog is to mix it up... don't use "said" exclusively. Moderation in all things, including dialog tags. It's the excessive use of any one style that makes it noticable, and as BuffySquirrel said, invisibility should be your goal.
quote: "Yes," I said. "No," she said. "Do not contradict me," I said. "I'm sorry," she said. "So you should be," I said. "Forgive me, master," she said.
I don't think the problem with dialogue like this is the use of "said" over and over. I think the problem is that the dialogue is hanging empty in space without any depth or context. Rarely do two people stand perfectly still with the same facial expression, thoughtlessly having a conversation.
The dialogue would be equally boring, IMO, even if you change said to various saidisms. Any dialogue that just goes: "blah blah" he *saidism* "blah blah blah" she *saidism* "blah" he *saidism* "blah blah" she *saidism* etc. is dull. What are they doing? What are they thinking, what inflections are they adding to their voice etc.
In any case, I don't think it's really an example of "the problem is using said over and over." IMHO anyway.
posted
Your point about the lack of narrative detracting from this extract is spot on. However, I think the repeated said's are also a problem, if only because most of them are redundant.
Posts: 245 | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Weren't the Gor novels specifically an experiment in sucky writing, though?
What, all 17 or however many of them?
AstroStewart - yes, it's "sucky" writing whether it uses said or saidisms, though it might read slightly less repetitively if there are a few alternatives (and rapid-fire dialogue can be perfectly acceptable if only a proprtion of the lines are given attributions at all).
I was just using it as an example of a situation where "said" was far from an "invisible" word.
posted
I think there's, like, 22 or something. I've not actually read one, but I heard about them from a friend who has. She said he wrote (the first one at least) to prove to a friend that he couldn't write a novel so sucky that no one would publish it.
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. However, sometimes it is possible to eliminate one or two tags where it's obvious who is speaking.
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