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Author Topic: Extremely Touchy Sensitive Historical Novel Issue
Survivor
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The issue is more whether he was educated than whether he was particularly good at dealing with authority. But I take it that you're saying he enlisted rather than recieving a commission. And you're saying he wasn't yet 18...what was all that blather about whether he'd have sex, then? Sheesh. On the other hand, the Civil War eventually saw conscription down to youths of 13 and old men in their sixties (in the Confederacy, at least). Certainly it was hardly unusual for boys as young as 15 to be found in the ranks of both sides, though naturally not as officers.
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hoptoad
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Well, the experience I described is an extremely isolating one.
In a situation where your life depends on your fellows, isolation could be deadly or at least feel that way. He may try to 'prove' his worth to his mates somehow. Like bringing in the occasional rabbit or -- if his morals allow -- access to contraband tobacco-- I don't know, it could be a million things.

The fear of not knowing whether, in your extremity, your friends will stick by you or abandon you is very real and may cause him to act differemtly than he would normally.

The last thing he would do would be to ask them that question. He would be likely to receive a 'what sort of blokes do you think we are?' style response and that would make his position more precarious, exposing his weakness/insecurities and introducing additonal doubts/reservations into the minds of his companions.

What he does not realise is that once he has proved himself by sticking to his principles a few times, a group of blokes will usually begin to stick up for him too.

[This message has been edited by hoptoad (edited January 21, 2007).]


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Survivor
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If it's the early phase of the Civil War, then almost everyone in his unit is someone he knows (if only slightly) from back home. I'm sure I mentioned this, but let me address it again. Social isolation was very unlikely in units composed of volunteers for a specific cause who all originate from the same geographic region. And the probability that very many of his peers, given that he's not even 18, would be seeking out "Hooker's women" (which had yet to be "invented" at that stage of the contest, by the way) is so slender as to be almost non-existent.
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hoptoad
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yeah, well that's what I meant about not having read the whole thread.

I do find it unlikely that the whole group would go looking for prostitutes. It would be a smaller group within it, probably a group with a nucleus of one or two men.

However survivor's point about social isolation is not necessarily true in all cases.

In the event that the character was already an outsider at home, the fear for him would be that of a return to social isolation.

The MC could in theory migrate to another small group of friends but if he had little rapport with his fellows in the first place then acceptance is far from guaranteed.

[This message has been edited by hoptoad (edited January 22, 2007).]


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Survivor
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CSCS's portrayal was more of a loner than an outsider. Besides, the nominal point of the discussion wasn't to try and get this character to have a reason to have sex. Obviously, as has been reviewed, there were prostitutes in urban America at that time. Somebody had to be patronizing them. It would be atypical for somebody in that category to be the first to sign up for an "abolitionists' war", which is why the institution of the draft was so critical to the social impact of the Civil War.
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Elan
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Bordellos were quite common during the late 1800's. I happen to live in the town that was the end of the overland Oregon Trail. As such, it was a wild west frontier town. I'm involved with the committee organizing our towns sesquicentennial celebration this year, and as such have access to articles printed in the newspaper of the era.

I've recently read an article, printed in 1880, telling how in 1879, the downtown business district burned to the ground... all seven blocks of it.

I mention all that for this reason: the aforementioned newspaper article lists the businesses that replaced those that burned. Of the long, long list of newly constructed businesses, there were 13 saloons and two liquor stores... in a seven block area. This doesn't count the high-brow hotels that had "billard rooms" for drinking and smoking. A fair number of those saloons had bordellos in them that were active until they were shut down in the 1930's. I remember reading once there were 20 bordellos in the red light district in our town. Keep it all in perspective... this would have been a community of probably less than 10,000 people. It ain't New York.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that the services of a prostitute were easy to access. Mountain men, gold miners, soldiers, laborers, seamen, railroad workers... you name it, in an old west boom town, "fallen women" were a dime a dozen.

dunno if that helps in the discussion or not, but them's the facts from the Old West.


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Survivor
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I know I mentioned this before, but that "Old West" isn't old enough. 1879 is very post Civil War. Still, it's true that prostitution existed in America prior to the Civil War, both North and South. The Northern culture was more definitely puritian in outward morality, but had a much larger immigrant population and a larger underclass, albeit one that was not eager to be morally inferior.
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Grandma_Jan
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The expectation that men would be sexually experienced before marriage is relatively new. It's true that, in the era you're writing in, more leeway was given to men than to women (a woman who wasn't a virgin was"spoiled" and unmarriagable, while with a man there was no clear way to tell), but most decent women wouldn't have wanted to mary a man who had whored around.

If you look at the psychological research, the easiest way to get a strong, attractive man who's a virgin in his twenties is to give him a mother in your story. If he sees his mother as beautiful, loving, and strong, if he respects her as a person, he's much less likely to see the girls around him as sex toys, more likely to treat women as human beings, as equals. The same qualities that keep him from having casual sex will make him a more desirable catch. But then, of course, the only woman he'll want to mary must be beautiful, loving and strong.

By the way, even in romance novels, the mere fact that he's a virgin doesn't mean he can't please her. Let his father, or a father figure, or even his mother, have the "marriage talk" with him, where they tell him to concentrate on her desire, her fears, her pleasure, before he lets himself be carried away. This was a common talk to have with young men at least through the 1950's.

Strong, attractive men can remain virgins if they respect women, see them as equals, and are waiting for sex to mean more than momentary gratification. Of course, then you're going to have a problem. If it's madatory that he NOT be a virgin when he marries (though I can't concieve of how this could be), you'll have a hard time getting him to visit a whore before his wedding, since this would be a betrayal of his values. Which makes him less desirable, less a lovable MC.


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Grandma_Jan
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CoriSCapnSkip said:

quote:
Thanks, I didn't know the Catholic Church's position on this. My church teaches that the Catholic Church views sex as a "necessary evil," not a good. If this is not the Catholic Church's position, either the Catholic Church's position has changed, or my church has got it wrong. So the clergy who take vows of celibacy do so for other reasons, not because sex is viewed as evil?

Cori, dear, do your research! Don't ever just accept what one group says about another's beliefs! You're online here, so I KNOW you can do searches on yahoo or google. As for your "unique brain configuration", I'm not sure as to which configuration you refer, but most of us here aren't your average joe or jane. That's why we write!

I'm an ex-mensa member. Being eligible for mensa puts me outside 99% of the population; having decided that mensa folks were boring as hell puts me god knows where! Add my ADD and my obsessive-compulsive tendencies, my world-view being shattered at the age of three by a mother who explained how light and sound travel at different speeds, fracturing my world into bits carried by different senses, leaving me wondering in what other ways the world wasn't as it seemed . . . Add, too, my photographic memory, and the songs that always play in my head (audiographic memory), and tell me I'm more normal than you are, hon.

The Catholic clergy take vows of celebacy because of Paul's letters to the churches (New Testament) where he tells them that a man would be hard-pressed to be a decent husband and a good pastor, too, given the times they lived in.

If you must have Christian grounding for what your characters do, #1, read your Bible. I mean really read it, as though it were a novel or a history, which it is. But always do your research where the background of your characters differs from your own.


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CoriSCapnSkip
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Mother: died when he was 10, but he has an aunt and female cousin he greatly respects.

Education: very good up until age 16 or so, then interrupted by some trouble he got into. Unless he skipped a grade earlier, he didn't have a high school diploma, or earned it after the war.

As for worrying whether he'd look weird in comparison to other men, average or not: it's a manifestation of my own obsession. Will I look weird in front of other historical novelists, particularly male ones obsessed with casual sex? (Think John Jakes.)

As for my brain, I missed being eligible for Mensa by nine lousy I. Q. points!


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Survivor
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On which side of the curve?

Kidding, kidding. Though one does get the feeling that Mensa is culturally dominated by its 98th percentile members...at least that's how I always felt about them. Boy, how's that for effete snobbery?

What about his father?


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hoptoad
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I found the mensa fees a waste of money as loca lmembers appeared obsessed with wasting their wattage on little games and trivial amusements and not the least interested with actually doing something.

I don't think CSCS needs to agonise over this. Make a decision and you can justify it a million ways. OSC reckons you can do anything so long as you're willing to pay the price, ie either the price of developing an appropriate back-story or the price of letting the plausibility slip and risk losing some readers.


Clearly you want to produce a book, but what outcome do you wish to achieve? Flattering peer review? To tell a story? The widest possible readership? Knowing the answer to those sort of questions and what outcomes are your priorities will help define what price you should be willing to pay and, in comparison, whether you are paying too much or too little.

[This message has been edited by hoptoad (edited January 23, 2007).]


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CoriSCapnSkip
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Main character's father is a hypocrite--very verbal in giving lip service to whatever he perceives as being the socially acceptable thing, then doing "whatever." If MC put any weight on his words as a child, by late adolescence he learns to ignore them.

Low-end objective: be better than John Jakes!

High-end objective: take my place among the literary greats in producing works towering and immortal.

Super-short explanation: I was judging by "What might modern readers think of an author who writes such things in fiction?" NOT by "What might characters living in that time and place think of such a character?" I can see certain readers, particularly male, picking up my book and thinking, "Who is this naive small-town unsophisticate who is so stupid as not to KNOW that 95% of people have sex before marriage AS A MATTER OF COURSE? What kind of nonsense is she trying to pull here?" I also worry not what other people, real or fictional, might think about my character, but what he might worry they are thinking about him--since I must understand *his* thoughts.

[This message has been edited by CoriSCapnSkip (edited January 25, 2007).]


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Survivor
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So...who is this guy's role model?

Like I've said, anyone that is so culturally unsophisticated as to believe that the sexual revolution changed nothing about sexual activity in this country and that no culture has no impact on personal relationship choices isn't going to be interested in reading anything remotely historical. So you have nothing to worry about. Write to the readers who might actually read your book.


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CoriSCapnSkip
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Thanks, Survivor. I just watched the most recent adaptation of "Jane Eyre" and was heartened by how well that has stood up.

My main character's role models are Grandfather and Uncle, with Father and two Brothers as bad examples.

Someone mentioned Kinsey. An article in the "Reader's Digest," also not the most trustworthy source, still REALLY provided food for thought. It alledged that Kinsey gained most of his information from a very few people, the main one being a sex pervert who had served time for his crimes. He then wrote that "most people" indulge in certain activities (sex with kids, animals, multiple partners, etc.) Many people read the study and said, "Oh, GEE, what kind of chump am I to have been missing out on all this great stuff that 'most people' do? Gotta get busy!" Hence, the "Sexual Revolution" occurred largely due to this.


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CoriSCapnSkip
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If we keep this thread going, maybe I can get my whole novel written!
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Survivor
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Well, I tend to believe that it will be possible for you to get your whole novel written whether or not this thread keeps going.
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CoriSCapnSkip
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Your faith does WONDERS for me!!! Thanks!!!!
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CoriSCapnSkip
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Hey, I ordered some books about sexual attitudes and customs in Victorian times which should prove most enlightening.

In case I didn't explain enough about my characters, the reason the question of this specific subject is important, in their particular case, is we're talking about adventurous people (hunter/explorer/soldier types) who didn't stay put in civilized settlements or necessarily just take other people's word for anything. I wonder if it is unrealistic to portray such people behaving in a [S]sensible[/S] conservative manner regarding sex. I can even write to some extent about a character who is reckless--I just have trouble writing about one who is stupid or takes unnecessary risks with himself and others--in other words, one I don't respect. Also, I understand men are MUCH less discriminating than women, but this doesn't necessarily apply to all men. Even if I write about a character with either high standards (respects women) or just shallow (won't do it with anyone not as good-looking as he is, and he's in the top 1%, so--) wonder if readers will respect or believe him if he's not like something I wonder whether I can write about at all. It's a real problem.

What's got me all rattled is the vast chasm between "Casanova" and "total virgin." It seems to cover a LOT of territory! Also, not talking about a guy who would ravish a virgin or really hit on any woman who wasn't asking for it--well, I guess that would take care of a lot of potential situations right there-- --we don't even have to "assume" opportunities were way less in the 1860s, that's a GIVEN--what I'm asking is a little more complicated. Would the character question his OWN manhood for not going out and looking for it, knowing others do--and I assume this would apply more to a naturally sociable person than a total loner? And, if he did question his manhood, what would he do? Give in to what he knows has serious dangers and was taught was wrong? Prove his aggression in other ways, like getting in a lot of fights and beating up guys? Or, not say anything till someone said something to him first, then skewer them with sarcasm? My MC is what you might call defensive without being insecure, if that combination makes sense at all. By the way, this is an EXTREMELY honest person who would NOT lie or brag about anything he hadn't actually done, or encourage another person through any sort of deceit to do anything he wouldn't himself--I do know THIS much for FACT. Thanks for your consideration.

[This message has been edited by CoriSCapnSkip (edited May 19, 2007).]


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I am destiny
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My MC is a 30 yr old virgin, he is not a wimp, rather he is a brave strong caring special agent. He loved his (adoptive) mother, she was raped and killed as he was held hostage in the house at 12 yrs old. (a home invasion) this firms in his head that women are to be loved and respected. His cousin on the other hand was raised by family, but not parents. He raped some girls in school and has a general disrespect for women, and this is a catalyst between the Protag my MC and the Antag, his cousin. my readers like the conflict and dont see a 30 yr old virgin as a problem.

Good luck
destiny


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CoriSCapnSkip
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That sounds like a great story. My MC also has some issues with male relatives, chiefly a cousin.
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I am destiny
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Thanks CSCS, *blush*
Sometimes family can be the biggest pain, the familiarity VS. blood loyalty.
~Destiny

edited because I really can spell....

[This message has been edited by I am destiny (edited May 25, 2007).]


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CoriSCapnSkip
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To be honest, the issue isn't with his cousin, but himself. His cousin makes plain to him that he doesn't believe personal choices constitute a competition. This is a plain case of having to find the QUESTION, before even looking for the ANSWER. What I am dealing with is an extremely conflicted character! If having sex was something he really did not want to do, it wouldn't matter in which direction, if any, other people were pressuring him, he just wouldn't do it! If he is trying to be sensible, is he wimping out and being a "church lady"? The thought would fill him with a horror I can scarce describe. The most important question for him, I think, isn't even right or wrong, but if he really wants to do something (which, by his own inclinations, he has more than a hint he does) is he not doing so for reasons that would be counted "cowardly"? We're talking a person certainly not suicidally stupid, but borderline reckless. If he suspected cowardice in himself, he might force himself to action regardless of the consequences. Yet at the same time he does have a sense of self-preservation, and right and wrong. And he is an active person. Even if he chooses not to do something, it must be done in a decisive manner. I definitely want to write about a character who thinks and cares about consequences but not such a prisoner of caution he has every event in life planned out. Establishing the social context from which he'd be working would help a lot. Hence all the questions. That is, if he was told, or believed, that every right-thinking decent person did things exactly the same way--then found out different--that maybe there are "choices"--he would be confounded by the choices and which to make!

[This message has been edited by CoriSCapnSkip (edited May 26, 2007).]


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CoriSCapnSkip
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Of course, the attitude to behavior, which had to have been judged by its perceived effects on society, is a big factor. As for the conflict of the main dilemma, I think I've figured out how to proceed. Thanks for the input.
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jeffrey.hite
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All I have to say is Yea! a SF story, other than my own, that could possibly be able to share with my kids without having to explain that some people have other moral beliefs.

Thank you for thinking of it and to everyone else thanks for the lively support of the subject.

[This message has been edited by jeffrey.hite (edited June 14, 2007).]


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RMatthewWare
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Why assume a male couldn't be a virgin at marriage? I was. A lot of my male friends were. For some people, we believe in not having sex outside of marriage. I'm not condemning anyone who disagrees, I'm just saying, we're out there.

So sure, have your male MC be a virgin if you wish. It shouldn't even be an issue.

Matt


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CoriSCapnSkip
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Thanks, you guys!!! It is good to hear people in this day and age promoting and affirming these beliefs! The reason I thought readers might have a problem is the way it is portrayed in many books, and a lot of times these authors just cheat. John Jakes, for instance, skimming over a character's first experience by saying the guy visited a local loose lady and next thing you know he's a stud. You see this in books all the time. They don't go into what a person really experiences, especially someone who's defying or forcing himself to go against his upbringing because he thinks he has to "prove" his manhood.

I would like to know when loss of virginity became a rite of passage for males and that one was not really considered grown up until it happened. I am GUESSING American popular culture starting in the 1920s, but that's just a guess. Not saying stuff didn't happen before then, just wondering when it became the expected "norm."


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CoriSCapnSkip
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The book _Virgin: The Untouched History_, by Hanne Blank (March 2007, Bloomsbury USA), has been recommended, which I will probably add to the other volumes I've already purchased on this topic.

Also _Virginity Lost: An Intimate Portrait of First Sexual Experiences_, by Laura M. Carpenter (2005) covers this very issue.

[This message has been edited by CoriSCapnSkip (edited June 18, 2007).]


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RMatthewWare
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If your story takes place in the 1800s, I think it was often the case that people would marry a lot earlier. Today, eighteen is an early marriage. Then, it could be possible to be married at thirteen. Hard to be sexually active before then.

Matt


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CoriSCapnSkip
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Yes, early marriages were not uncommon. At least for women, I guess they were considered past it by their early 20s.
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CoriSCapnSkip
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If I said it before, it's worth repeating: the big issue here is that this not be about an author manipulating a character into a certain behavior to push an agenda of the author's, but a realistic story hopefully portraying some situations people faced then and decisions they made based on the realities of their lives. My big horror was that people would think my character was a loser, prude, or copout if he just didn't automatically have sex by whatever the "expected" (?) age is regardless of circumstances. I (at least) don't have a problem with a female character being a virgin, or even a male character without much appeal--you know, where it would be obvious the only way he'd get any is to pay for it--but this is a very good-looking young man genuinely attracted to women. The worst thing that could happen would be a male reader saying, "This reads like it's written by a girl." I dunno, for some reason that's my imagination of having really failed. I think some male authors throw in sex just to liven up a story or add interest, but if done right a story about a person's real decisions and why could be of extreme interest. (It seems like it would sure be different!) To me it's interesting just how much times have changed (several times!) in the last 50 years...to the extent that I think modern readers may be more accepting than those of just a generation ago.
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