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Author Topic: King's perspective on short stories
annepin
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Anybody else see this article by Stephen King in the NYT today?

What Ails the Short Story. (this link will probably die at some point so read it while you can).

His take: the short story is alive, but not well.

I don't know how much of this applies to the speculative genres, since he's mostly referring to literary stories, but I thought it interesting none the less, and echoes some of the opinions we've expressed here.

Of particular interest, I thought, is that the primary people who buy short story magazines are people who want to get published in them. In fact, I've heard elsewhere, both from the magazines and writers, that as an aspiring writer I should "do my part" to keep the magazine alive, that is, to subscribe. This seems to me to create an odd cycle that feeds into itself, but becomes ever smaller and more exclusive. Wouldn't it be better to try to write stories that appeal to a larger audience? Is that even possible?

Anyway, I thought the article worth reading.

[This message has been edited by annepin (edited September 30, 2007).]

[This message has been edited by annepin (edited September 30, 2007).]


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meg.stout
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The link doesn't work for me already - man, that was fast!

Well, someone else somewhere else also posted a link:

http://tinyurl.com/2qphgb

[This message has been edited by meg.stout (edited September 30, 2007).]


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annepin
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No, i screwed up the link when I entered it. It should work now, at least for a week or so.
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JamieFord
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Beautiful post. King nails it.

The problems with most lit journals is that they really are just filled with writers writing for other writers. Which creates these closed circuits of what OSC calls "Performance Writing."

[This message has been edited by JamieFord (edited September 30, 2007).]


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RMatthewWare
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I wonder how many short story magazines only exist because of the writers that are trying to get published in them.

I wonder.


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oliverhouse
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RMatthewWare, I wonder the same thing. But then, aren't many people drawn to writing stories because they like to read them? I know some people here have said they write short stories because they've been told they need to before they write a novel, but is everyone like that? And if not, then those magazines still serve a market, no?

I think the market for short fiction will get even smaller, though, as people get used to watching episodes of _The Office_ on 1.5" iPod screens.

It would help if there were a television equivalent of the short story market. Twilight Zone and all that; half-hour or hour-long shows, each episode independent of those that came before.


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arriki
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I don't seek out short stories for a basic reason.

If the story is good, I want more time to sink into it, to wallow around in the place, the mood, hang out with the characters.

If it doesn't do any of the above for me, why would I want to read it in the first place?

I much prefer novels. The latest crops of short stories in the f and sf magazines...they rarely print stories that interest me. They seem for the most part, depressing. Or even stupid...???? I can't pin down one single problem that permeates the market but it's there. They seem to be trying to be more literary rather than action-adventure ideas? More social fiction ideas? Something.

[This message has been edited by arriki (edited October 02, 2007).]


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luapc
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quote:
I think the market for short fiction will get even smaller, though, as people get used to watching episodes of _The Office_ on 1.5" iPod screens.

So I guess maybe we should be thinking of switching to writing screen plays instead!

I think it might be a matter of people now wanting the big stories, like Harry Potter, and Lord Of The Rings, and Pirates Of The Caribbean. Like arrika alluded to, short stories just don't hold the attention of today's readers as well. I have to admit that while I enjoy a good short story from time to time, I'll usually buy a novel at a bookstore rather than an anthology of shorts.

That said, I also subscribe to all of the major pro mags as well and read them, but more for reference and research into the markets than because a story caught my attention, just as Mr. King says. I think he has a point.


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ChrisOwens
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As a teen, I read more shorts(Asimov,Zelazny,&the like) but my interests waned thereafter. And until Maps In A Mirror, I was never enamored with short stories.
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Wolfe_boy
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I wonder about the difference between Literary and Spec Fiction markets as well... I know we've lost a few big Spec markets in recent years, but there are always a lot of little ones popping up here and there. Literary markets must folow a similar trend. I was shocked by how hard it was to find a copy of On Spec when I went looking for it since I was looking in the SF&F section, and it was tucked away in the Magazine rack with the rest of the lit mags.

I suppose I would grade the Spec market for short fiction to be stronger than the literary market for one overwhleming reason - the big names in sci-fi and fantasy still write short stories. I really can't name a lot of the bigger names in lit fiction who do the same, and I think that the draw of the big names can drive short fiction sales. What was the last short story that Salman Rushdie wrote? Don DeLillo? Brett Easton Ellis? Hellingway and Fitzgerald both worked in short fiction, and many current Spec Fiction authors still work in the form. As for the four names King pointed out as major short fiction names - Gay, DeVita, Pollack, and Kyle - why haven't I ever heard of any of them? Do I not run in the right crowd?

Jayson Merryfield


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RMatthewWare
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I agree with Arriki. I tried to write short stories as a way of breaking into the market, but they always ran long (10-15,000 words). The better ones are now in the process of getting into novels. If it's almost as hard to get a book deal than a short story sale, why not go for the novel?

So, unless I do well and someone solicits a short story from me, I think I'll stick to what I love: novel writing.


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lehollis
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I'd like to get a few short story credits under my belt--they certainly seem faster to earn than novel credits--but I've been noticing I don't have much interest in short stories (reading or writing) myself.

My ideas tend to be too big for a short story, or if they fit into a short story, they don't have much of a spark.

Short stories tend to disappoint me more often than anything, though there have been some gems. I'm often surprised at what does get published as short stories.

That's just my experience with them. I don't think the short story is dead, though.


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debhoag
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Lehollis, we're still waiting for you to post a 13 from your recent writing frenzy!
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baduizt
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Short stories are very difficult, for readers and writers. There are very few short story writers I seek out (Rhys Hughes, Jeff Vandermeer, Caitlin R. Kiernan, Poppy Z. Brite and Angela Carter). Of those I do read, Angela Carter was the one who disappointed me least, but, since she passed away and therefore produces no new content, I have all of her stories and have read them all at least twice. I always keep on the lookout for new writers that fascinate me in the same way.

Also, I think it is considered 'uncool' to buy literary journals unless you're literary. In the age of Face, Loaded and Zoo (all British popular magazines), more 'arty' mags are ignored as frivolous. Writers, of course, think literature is cool--so we do keep the market afloat. But there are, with spec-fic mags, those sci-fi/fantasy addicts that collect anything related to their hobby, and who will buy every spec-fic magazine out there. So maybe we're selling to two niches instead of one :P But the good thing is that collector-types are loyal and will tend to buy a series of titles from the same company/writer/journal, even if they're not very good, just for completion's sake.

Regards


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Vanderbleek
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I think the problem with short stories (at least for me) is trying to cram too much plot and not enough point into a few pages; my favorite shorts are ones that leave you wondering "what if?" after you're finished. The characters may not be the most well developed, the plot may be brief with no convoluted twists or turns, but still, at the end...you have to wonder if it could happen.

I guess my point is I need to stop trying to write shorts like I would something larger.


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arriki
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Is it really true, what Vanderbleek said about short stories? I've been engrossed in writing a couple of 5000 word ones and have been amazed at how much story and characterization can be crammed into 5000+ words. The shorter stuff -- 3000 and fewer -- yeah, not a lot of room there. Maybe I'm fooling myself that I HAVE gotten a lot in. I see lots of stuff that isn't there on the page and that makes it seem like the story has more...or is it really there? I guess I'm the last person to be able discern that.

[This message has been edited by arriki (edited October 02, 2007).]


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oliverhouse
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I honestly don't think it is. Just look at some of the best short stories, even very short ones. Bruce Holland Rogers has a real sensitivity for what can be done with few words. I love his The Djinn Who Lives Between Night and Day and hold it up as an example of really great, really short fiction. It shows how involved you can get in only 1400 words.

I believe that it's hard to master writing great short stories, but if they're really well-written then they're not inherently hard for the reader.


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JeanneT
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quote:
I much prefer novels and the latest crops of short stories in the f and sf magazines...they rarely print stories that interest me. They seem for the most part, depressing. Or even stupid...????

My own opinion is that spec magazine short story editors are trying really hard to be very, very literary. If I wanted to read New Yorker stories I'd pick up the blinking New Yorker. In spec magazines I want to read pure spec, and for much to much of the genre you don't find speculative fiction there, especially in fantasy magazines. Instead, you find ersatz literary stories. So I don't buy them. Sorry, Mr. King, but I'm not going to support magazines that have, in my opinion, given up or sold out on the genre they are supposed to support.

Maybe they, at least in part, aren't selling because they aren't enjoyable to read.

[This message has been edited by JeanneT (edited October 02, 2007).]


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luapc
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I think that JeanneT has a very valid point. The problem may not be the readers, as Mr. King suggests, but maybe it's the editors and story selections. Below is a post from the slush editor at Realms of Fantasy magazine. I posted it in a thread a while back, so you may have already read it, but here it is again for any who might have missed it.

http://slushmaster.livejournal.com/71644.html

In this post, he talks about a kind of fantasy called Surrealistic Fantasy, which is some kind of subtle fantasy so hidden, that even he says he did not think it was fantasy at all at first.

So here we have a slush editor who is selecting a type of story even he had doubts of belonging in a genre magazine for fantasy. What does that say about magazine editors and the types of stories they are selecting? If even an editor can't decide whether it's fantasy or not, how do they expect readers to? To make matters even worse, Realms of Fantasy claims to be a traditional fantasy magazine who publishes epic fantasy. It seems to me they're doing nothing of the sort.


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oliverhouse
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quote:
Either way, I'm sure some readers were scratching their heads at "Bread Crumbs & Stones" and "Mother Moves In" by Deborah Wheeler, wondering what such tales were doing in a fantasy magazine.

If you rewind to ten years ago, I would have been one of these people. Actually, I would have sneered derisively, convinced this was literary fiction with no place whatsoever in a magazine like Realms of Fantasy. Whether they like it or not, even traditionalists will recognize things like urban fantasy & magic realism as fantasy literature. It's just of a sort they don't like. But some people don't get surrealism, not if it's supposed to be fantasy literature. It all comes down to whether you're willing to accept stories that often rely heavily (or solely) on metaphors and symbolism to achieve the fantastical (again, the disclaimer of a simplistic definition).


Wow. God save me from that sort of sophistication.


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dee_boncci
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The last few years I've consumed a lot of published short fiction, mostly in magazines. I rarely find one I enjoy reading, maybe one in seven or ten. I have to approach the rest of the stories as specimens just to plow through an issue.

So it's no surprise to me that the short story is languishing. For me, most of them are not worth paying money for, and if I wasn't attempting to write short fiction myself, I wouldn't bother. I guess maybe they're just not "my thing".

I can't speculate as to whether it is the choice of editors, or that the editors have little to choose from. Even most "best of" anthologies are usually a chore. But I will try the anthology edited by King.

The best I've found come from collections by single authors.


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JeanneT
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I couldn't resist commenting on that blog, and I'm afraid I did refer to "snot-nosed editors" and "no wonder you're losing subscribers."

Edit: And I no longer even try to sell short stories to the supposed "top fantasy markets" which have sold out on fantasy, in my opinion. Most of what they publish is barely fantasy and nothing I want to either read or write. I am afraid I truly believe that Mr. King missed at least half the problem with the short story market. I'm not saying he didn't have a point. But he ignored the issue of the fact that most of those magazines don't have stories in them that I would read except as an exercise in masochism. If people enjoyed reading them, maybe they wouldn't be hidden.

[This message has been edited by JeanneT (edited October 02, 2007).]


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ChrisOwens
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Ouch!

As Kevin J Anderson and his wife Rebbeca said in a recent podcast: "Be nice to everyone." The first reader might be there today, but he might become the editor of a major publication house tommorow.

[This message has been edited by ChrisOwens (edited October 02, 2007).]


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JeanneT
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Well, if he looks for fantasy that is so non-fantastical that even HE can't tell it's fantasy, he wouldn't buy my work now and he wouldn't buy it in the future. On the other hand, I won't buy his magazine. (Which used to be darn good back in the day when it actually published FANTASY.)

Realms of Fantasy--now wouldn't you think a magazine with a name like that would want to publish fiction that is identifiable as fantasy. But noooo.... They want to "educate" their reader to think stuff that isn't fantasy and has no fantasy elements is fantasy -- cuz it's LITERARY. Well, as a reader, I was offended.

I repeat-- snot nosed editor. But I will freely admit it isn't a good idea for a writer to go around telling editors what your opinion of them is. My response, however, was as a reader, and I think it's past time for readers to speak up to the idiocy that editors are doing.

[This message has been edited by JeanneT (edited October 05, 2007).]


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