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Author Topic: Golden Compass
Zero
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Oh, what a great idea!
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InarticulateBabbler
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quote:

Completely off topic: I'm convinced Americans deliberately forgot how to make decent tea to make sure us Brits never came back ;-)

Actually we developed our own method for making tea that involved a far superior amount of tea dunked into a large bowl (harbor) of cold (salt) water, thereby forever changing our tastes and opinion of Brits and tea.

Now, the majority of us prefer iced tea (sweet tea)--though we have drifted away from the salt.

[This message has been edited by InarticulateBabbler (edited November 23, 2007).]


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teddyrux
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Let me see if I can get this right.

Some Christians find the movie and the books objectionable and don't want their children to see the movie or read the book. (Yes some of them think the movie is bad for society. Which is a discussion for another website not this one.)

This is a bad thing?

We have people expressing their opinions

quote:
There are attempts going on all over the country to ban this book and the movie, and control the thoughts that authors are allowed to express
that these people are bad for expressing their opinions. There's a word for this but to use would violate the TOS for this website.

I've been away too long. This forum used to be about writing. What happened??????

[This message has been edited by teddyrux (edited November 23, 2007).]


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Lord Darkstorm
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I think I throw in a fer thought before getting back to my nano work...

I do believe religion and politics are very important subjects that are related to writing. While the arguing, fighting and long debating about certain issues might not be appropriate here, the idea that people have these beliefs (and for those who haven't notice, many have very strong opinions that they feel quite a bit about) and when we write our characters can have strong political and religious beliefs. They are motivational factors, and should never be overlooked because it might be..oh! Controversial!

I've met people who refuse to let their kids read harry potter because they use spells...and there are witches. Now, none of them have bothered to read the books themselves, since someone has told them how evil it is. I've asked the simple obvious question, "so why is it bad"? The reply is usually, well, they might act it out. So a kid picks up a stick says a few words...and nothing happens except for what their imagination provides. It just boggles the mind.

Since when did we forget to explain the difference between reality and fiction? I can read anything and take away from it what I desire, but if it is fiction, then I will know that it isn't real, it's made up. Lessons, words of wisdom that come across from the book can still be valid when the story itself is just that...a story.

I think something that I've found when it comes to fiction and religion, and atheism is a religion in this respect. Those who fear that something might disturb their beliefs, or the beliefs of their children, you have to wonder...could the beliefs be lacking? Some people are so vocal about what they believe, but their actions say otherwise.

Pay attention to religion, and the people who tend to be overzealous or inflexible. Many wrongs have been carried out in the name of religion, like 9/11 or the crusades....even Hitler had his own form of zealous beliefs that brought out a hatred so strong he brought about the murder of many jews.

Religion can be a motivational item behind any character, be it good or bad. If we all take each book that has a religious skew that might make us question our own beliefs, maybe we should question our beliefs until we find out whether we believe the right things. A book only has the value we give it.


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Vanderbleek
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I read a quote from Pulman that went something like "I guess I am an atheist, but I follow Christian morals, so I'm a Christian atheist. More specifically I was raised Catholic, so I'm a catholic Christian atheist." (Paraphrased, totally, but I think it gets the point across. I read it in a companion to the books.)
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skadder
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Apparently Philip Pullman likes a cup of tea in the morning. It doesn't say what type.

http://www.philip-pullman.com/about_the_writing.asp

I would imagine he likes his tea dark, perhaps that is what he is referring to with 'His Dark Materials'. Earl grey, maybe.


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JeanneT
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An interesting website. I was taken with a number of his comments. I admire them since they are very close to my own beliefs and most of us admire those who are smart enough to agree with us. LOL

I'm sure he also has the good taste to drink Assam tea.

Edit: You also have to admire a man who has a bandsaw in his office.

[This message has been edited by JeanneT (edited November 24, 2007).]


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skadder
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I agree with those people who are smart enough to admire me--of which there are few.
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tnwilz
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Whether we like it or not. Whether we are comfortable discussing it or not the responsibility that comes with success in the field of writing it yours to own. This thread may to some extent enlighten us all as to the reality of that fact. The merits of atheism as compared to creationism is pointless to discuss here. But, that was never what this thread was about. It was only to highlight the fact that you can’t just write absolutely anything you so please without reaction.

The terrible things that happen today with ever increasing frequency like schoolyard shootings or the rape and murder of children. These are the direct result of societal tolerance of pornography and gratuitous violence in video games and movies. No matter what we as a society tolerate we will always be pushed to tolerate more. NAMBLA is a real organization that will continue to push for greater recognition. There are numerous organizations that push to legalize the very drugs that most of us know first hand, destroy lives and families. The type of movies that our children have to choose from today would have been utterly unthinkable 20 years ago. Our teens are out watching movie after movie of humans being slowly tortured to death. And we say as an enlightened and progressive society that their young minds can handle it objectively. Its just entertainment! Is there anyone on the planet (who’s not making money off it) that actually believes that?

So forgive me but there will always be FANATICAL people who want to take away the moviemakers right to completely destroy the moral fabric of society just because they will get rich in the process. There will always be people who want to ban the video games that make teenage boys actually think that killing for real would probably be kind of cool. If you don’t believe that’s a reality you haven’t researched the subject. Most of the people who scream that all choices, harmful or not, should be available to society at large, would react quite badly if their mate came home with a stack of porno or began selecting a third partner for the bedroom. They seem to want it on the street but not in their own home.

Like it or not this is the world we live in. This is happening around you as we speak. Things ARE changing and have changed alarmingly recently. So pick a side cos someone is wrong. Religion is definitely on the downswing, there’s no disputing it. The churches are emptying out and religion and Christianity is off the school curriculum. We are having to rename everything so as not to impose religious ideology on those who wish have a clear conscience to engage in whatever activity should so please them. In Britain where I am from you are treated as a complete idiot if you have any kind of faith in God. Religion is a dirty word and God is for the weak minded. There is tremendous peer pressure to abandon any kind of faith. In Britain faith is the new gay and the old gay is now a badge of honor. Christians are moving into the closet.

Yeah, this is quite the rant. I’m done.

This thread was made possible by the writing of Mr. Pullman. A writer. A writer, writing into the same market as you. And making quite a stir doing so. It is relative to this forum. Arguing religion does not belong here but nobody has done that. At least not in this thread. If you think they did go back and read again. This thread is about the moral issues facing those who aspire to be successful writers. It is about whether it is appropriate to protest new lows such as subtly promoting atheism to children without actively alerting guardians that this is the nature of the material.

There has been plenty of business minded approaches to the art that utterly avoid the moral implications. Plenty of groups on the web that hate moral considerations altogether. I like this group because I know that KDW and OSC are neither greedy or self-indulgent and both take the privilege of standing in the public podium with humility and moral responsibility. Neither would publish just anything purely for personal profit. OSC is in fact quite well known for his moral commentaries on many issues. I started this thread simply because I felt it would be healthy to discuss the reality that what we write is not inconsequential. In truth if we meet with success it will affect other peoples lives in one way or another. Im sure all of you know numerous people who you know have been very affected by various mass media. Some adopting entire life philosophies that seem ridiculous to you. But then not everybody has family and stability.


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Igwiz
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I think its time for everyone to have a cup of tea, whatever cup of tea you're into. Doesn't matter whether the leaves are in the shape of a cross, a star, a crescent or a little dude with his arms in the air. But I believe our goal here is to share our thoughts about writing, not our thoughts about our ideologies. IMHO, this is not the venue for that kind of discussion. So how 'bout we all just try to get along here.

JeanneT, mfreivald, your conversations are rapidly denigrating from a lively debate into a dichotomized animosity. I'm not saying who I think is right (you both bring valid positions to the table, because this is a personal issue, and all positions are valid).

So, how about y'all do one of two things: pistols at sunrise, or bury the hatchet.

HOWEVER, regardless of your decision, how 'bout you refrain from conducting it in this venue.

Me, I think I'm going to go have a lively debate about Inadvertent Plagiarism. I suggest the rest of us do the same.

Cheers


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TaleSpinner
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Just when you thought it was safe to go back in the water ...

So, before the thread gets locked, I wanted to say it was cool how we were avoiding flames.

The tea thing was fascinating, I've never seen it work metaphorically before. As Skadder said, whenever there's a crisis the first thing the Brits do is reach for a kettle and tea pot. It's a neat technique of crisis and conflict management: Find something everyone has in common (tea) and through that get them talking and sharing. Also, it's a good mechanical ritual that gives one something distracting something to do.

And to Kathleen's question, it's a good theory (although mine's funnier). We Brits have boiled pretty much anything for centuries -- vegetables, steam pudding, drinking water (when invading someone else's country), wort (for beer), and of course marauders climbing castle walls. So we'd naturally boil coffee too, methinks.

So, I'll make tea. I think there are two Assams with milk and sugar, another without cream or sugar, a Darjeeling, several regular English Breakfast teas for those who didn't specify, a pot of warm not boiled coffee, one superior tea-crate dunked in a harbour and a Monkey Picked Formosa ...

Cue the evil robot monkeys?

Pat


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Robert Nowall
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(The smell of gasoline makes me nostalgic.)

*****

I haven't read the books---I did see them in the stores. But not before several volumes had come out. I looked at them, held them in my hands, looked at the cover art and read the jacket copy, pondering whether to buy. But I didn't.

First off, (1) these commercial attempts to duplicate the effect of Tolkien usually disappoint me. Plenty have been of interest, some form the leaf mold that makes my view on the world what it is...but, in general, they copy Tolkien (or Peake, or Grahame, or Lewis, or whoever), but don't live up to him.

There's also (2) the open-endedness of these commercial attempts. For all the later expansion material, The Lord of the Rings was complete---and these new books rarely are. And sometimes even death doesn't stop it.

But mainly, (3) it was the price. I think it was, like, four books at the time I looked at it. (I forget the details and could be in error here.) Four hardcovers at, oh, twenty-something a pop, add tax...we're talking over a hundred dollars for a series I wasn't sure I''d like, when there were other books to buy I thought I would (I probably drop more than, oh, two hundred a month on books.)

So the books stayed in the store and I read other things.

[Footnote: I don't know (or don't remember) when these moved into paperback editions---I think I saw the hardcovers first, but there may have been trade paper editions out at the time. I may even have looked at those.]


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wrenbird
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I read the title of this thread and I thought "Oh boy, here comes trouble."

In the style of Wolfe_boy and some others, I am going to comment solely on the actual books themselves and not the topics of book banning, religion, atheism, etc.

I couldn't put the first book, The Golden Compass, down. I loved it. Fantastic book. I was really excited for the next book.
Unfortunately, I was sorely dissapointed. I finished The Sublte Knife, but I disliked it so much that I didn't even start the final book. And let me quickly emphasize, that it had nothing to do with the alleged anti-religious themes. No, there were other reasons.

Reading the 1st book was so much more enjoyable for me. I felt that Subtle Knife could have been written by a different person.
Three things attributed to this
1. As has been metioned before, the setting in the first book was FAR more exciting and enjoyable. WAY more interesting.
2. In book 1 the story only follows Lyra. In book two we follow three narratives, two of which bored me to tears and seemed to be totally unimportant to the plot. So the pacing was much slower.
3. Book 1 was just an exciting story. Book 2 felt it had an agenda. Pullman sacrificed alot of his fine storytelling to further it.

So, in sum, read The Golden Compass, skip the other two.


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TaleSpinner
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Is it possible the books were intended to be the first three of a possibly indefinite series, thus sowing the seeds of deterioration after book 1? (It seems to me that if you want to write lots of sequels, you've got to leave unanswered questions and subtle hooks lying around, hence perhaps the meandering plotlines.)

Or has the agenda -- regardless of how one feels about it, there is an agenda, I think -- subverted the story-telling?

Pat


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Zero
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quote:
(The smell of gasoline makes me nostalgic.)

Nice hook, now write the story.

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Kathleen Dalton Woodbury
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I hereby declare that I will delete any further posts on the subject of banning or not banning books.

I am doing this in hopes that the topic can move to discussing the books themselves and whether those here who have read them have found them worth reading and why.

The reason I am doing this instead of just locking the topic is that I am interested in what you all may have to say about the books themselves.

Please consider yourselves warned.

Edited to add that I am going to delete any posts that are not directly discussing either tea or Pullman's trilogy.

This is not the place for discussions of religion.

[This message has been edited by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (edited November 25, 2007).]


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Kathleen Dalton Woodbury
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By the way, I'm an herb tea (tisane) drinker.

So I'd like some rooibos (red bush) tea, please.


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Kathleen Dalton Woodbury
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By the way, I have only read THE GOLDEN COMPASS though I have copies of the other two books.

One of the reasons I haven't managed to "get around to" reading the second and third books is that people whose opinions I respect have said they didn't like them as much as the first one.

Maybe I'll get them read this coming year.

Also, I'm not terribly excited to see the movie because I was severely underwhelmed by Daniel Craig in the latest Bond movie.


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skadder
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'Nostalgic Gasoline'

There's the title.


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Igwiz
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Kathleen:

I have just the ticket for you. I have found a wonderful tea and tisane blender from Boston who does a great rooibis. Our favorite (my wife and I) is their Key Largo blend. It is an organic green (not oxidized) rooibis, with dried papaya and mango pieces, peach pieces, orange and lemon peel, rose petals and marigold flowers.

Smells as good as it tastes.


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TaleSpinner
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"So I'd like some rooibos (red bush) tea, please."

Wups, sorry, I missed your preference Kathleen.

Pat


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RMatthewWare
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What I loved about the books were the characters. What I didn't like was where the story went (even with the anti-religioius stuff, which I can ignore to a great extent).

What I disliked was that it seemed a lot of story elements were being set up that never went anywhere. SPOILER WARNING: It seemed the lady doctor that hooked up with the tree people was being set up as a sort of tempter (ie Lucifer, but nicer). It also seemed Will and Lyra were going to be a sort of Adam and Eve and would be the parents to a new world, free of the religious persecutions of the world Lyra was from. At the end, none of that happened and Will and Lyra had to return to their worlds (kind of a parallel earth thing), and be separate. The reason given for this was really thin and it seemed the author wanted to do it even though everything else pointed elsewhere. Like maybe he got bitter at some point and decided to wreck the story.


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Kathleen Dalton Woodbury
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Igwiz, if that Key Largo tastes as good as it sounds, I'm very interested.

And I found a source for it on the web. Thanks!


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teddyrux
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Forgive me, but I prefer Earl Gray.
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JeanneT
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I read only the first of the three books in question. I found it interesting but not so much so that I've gotten around to the rest of them. There is just so much to read, it's impossible to manage everything. Considering my extremely low opinion of organized religion, I had no problem with Pullman's take on it. I actually didn't view it as anti-religious though. I don't think that was his point at all. Take a look at the atrocities over the centuries that have been perpetrated in the name of organized religion (whether it was burning at the stake of hundreds of thousands of "witches", killing millions of jews, the crusades, the Islamic invasion of Europe--which people tend to forget since that war was a long way from one sided, on and on and on...) I really thought this was what he was getting at.

Now I have to read the others and see how they stack up.

Just so everyone knows, I have pity for anyone who doesn't prefer Assam. But you can't help your wrong-headed preference.


[This message has been edited by JeanneT (edited November 24, 2007).]

[This message has been edited by JeanneT (edited November 24, 2007).]

[This message has been edited by JeanneT (edited November 24, 2007).]


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Igwiz
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To any who enjoy tea, or who are willing to suspend their gasoline-oriented assumptions, you can find any and all here, at some of the most reasonable prices I've been able to find outside of special ordering from the Tea Garden itself.

They not only show you the leaf and the brewed cup, they provide you with sufficient background on each individual tea they sell for you to be able to determine what best fits your palate. For those Assam fanatics, you can have smooth and smokey or sharp and distinct.

Enjoy...

http://www.specialteas.com/


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RMatthewWare
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quote:
I actually didn't view it as anti-religious though. I don't think that was his point at all. Take a look at the atrocities over the centuries that have been perpetrated in the name of organized religion

I have no problem with him going against 'the church' if for the atrocities. The books never single out a church by name (though the hints are strong enough). But if a church did commit atrocities, they can't hide behind God. I agree with that.

It was in the subsequent books where the author seems to go after God himself that annoyed me. Yes, there are many people who commit evil in the name of deity. It doesn't mean the deity is wrong, it just means humans are losers.


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JeanneT
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What I have read ABOUT those does not show me that he was going after god but rather those who use religion to gain power for themselves. I do think that he believes that power in the hands of a church is a bad thing and that this is a theme in his books. Interesting how a theme becomes an "agenda" when you don't agree with it. LOL

I haven't seen that he has some kind of anti-god agenda. But I'll be able to judge a lot better when I read the subsequent books. So far I am going on what he himself said and what I have read in reviews.

I like a sharp and distinct Assam myself. I'll be happy to proselytize for converts.

[This message has been edited by JeanneT (edited November 24, 2007).]

[This message has been edited by JeanneT (edited November 24, 2007).]


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RMatthewWare
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quote:
I haven't seen that he has some kind of anti-god agenda. But I'll be able to judge a lot better when I read the subsequent books. So far I am going on what he himself said and what I have read in reviews.

I don't know or care what agenda or lack of one Pullman has or hasn't. I have read the books, and he goes the extra step from criticizing a church in the books, to going straight after the deity. You can trust one who has read it, or you can read it yourself. Maybe you'll have a different interpretation.

quote:
Hm. It's worth examining these things, I suppose, though I suspect you are being an opportunist after observing your modus operandi. Let's not use this as an opportunity for more histrionics, ay? You are notoriously bad with your facts now, and these are not exceptions.

I thought we were having a discussion on the books. Is it possible to take these tangents to another topic (or to private email)?

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Vanderbleek
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I think we all need another drink...I'll take a hot cocoa with nutmeg and peppermint myself.

On the subject, the second (and even more so) third books do go straight after "god." However, I'm not sure that's a bad thing.

-------------------------------------------
SEMI SPOILER
--------------------------------------------
God in Pullman's books is not truly God, he is a mortal being like any other, however he has taken it upon himself to rule over all the other beings. In fact the war isn't really against him, but his second in command...I have no problem with the idea that a false god should be overthrown.
--------------------------
END OF SPOILER
-------------------------

What I liked about the books is they showed how any institution may just be wrong...which is why you constantly have to check if what you're doing is truly "right."


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Robert Nowall
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Why do people react so when I mention the smell of gasoline? Any story would have to be a personal memoir...my father owned a gas station, and the smell always reminds me of visiting him there and hanging out back in the bays, playing with the lifts, poking into the tools...
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Igwiz
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Nice images, Robert. I grew up on a farm in western Kansas, and we used to run cattle on pastures that we had to haul water to and didn't have power. When it got below 25 degrees, we used to sink a 55 gallon drum in the middle of the big round tanks with cement blocks and then put some hedge and diesel fuel in. It would usually burn until the next morning and keep the water from freezing. Poor man's ice breaker.

The smell of diesel fuel always seems to bring that memory back, so I can totally understand. That smell, mixed with alfalfa hay, wheat dust and cow ... manure pretty much cover my childhood.

As to the books, I haven't read them. Just bought the whole set second hand. Tried to get into the first of them, and its first 13 didn't hook me. Guess I might have to try harder, but maybe not...

In either case, regarding the rest of the raging debate, I'm a "whatever gets you through the night" kinda guy. Not what gets everybody else through the night, or what you think should get them through the night 'cause it feels so good to you, just what gets YOU through the night. And that's generally the problem I have with these types of debates. It's so personal, so tangible, so close to the center of the chest, that it's very hard to separate the debate from the feelings.

"So me," he says, returning to the pleasantries of reminiscence, "I'm happy to stay with the tea and the gasoline."

[This message has been edited by Igwiz (edited November 25, 2007).]


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skadder
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With all that energy, you two could get a lot of real writing done!
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Kathleen Dalton Woodbury
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I don't believe this.

I'm going to go back and change my warning to say that I'm deleting everything that isn't directly about Pullman's trilogy (or tea).

As others have pointed out, Jeanne T and mfreivald, if you want to keep arguing, whatever the points are you choose to argue about, please take it to email.

Either that, or ignore each other.

Thank you.

[This message has been edited by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (edited November 25, 2007).]


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JeanneT
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You're right, Kathleen. And I apologize for my own lack of self-control on this subject. I shouldn't have commented further.
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RMatthewWare
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You know, I thought this discussion had gotten to three pages. Good to know I'm not crazy. Not entirely, anyway.
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wrenbird
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I read an interview with Pullman when he said the reason he wrote the trilogy was as a response to the Narnia series. So . . . to me, that's an agenda.

I also think the Narnia books had an agenda to some degree. Except for the Horse and his Boy. I can't figure the symbolism behind that one. Anyone know?

PS: the millions of Jews were killed because of racism and political reasons.


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JeanneT
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wrenbird, I don't think that has anything to do with Golden Compass.
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wrenbird
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The first part does.

As for my PS . . . well, maybe your right. I apologize.
It's just, I was a History major in college and I felt compelled to correct the slight historical inacuracy.


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RMatthewWare
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Everyone has an agenda, except for me.

I thought the way Pullman dealt with the phenomenon of dark matter was cool.

What was really interesting about the series was that it started out on a parallel earth. Lyra's world of England has the same geography, but a different world. Each person has a daemon (basically a part of one's soul, but in this world it manifests as an animal). Her world is governed more by magic and spirits, yet The Church (not mentioned as any specific church) does maintain great power over how the world runs and pissing it off is a bad thing.

In the second novel, most of the events take place in our world. The third novel has to do with Lyra's father's attempt at restarting the human race on an empty earth where they would be free from tyranny. If you can read the books and suspend yourself from the idea that Pullman may or may not be attacking religion (which I can do), then the read is quite good. If you tell yourself that The Church is not any particular church, then you realize that The Church, as painted in the novels, is not a good thing, and the rebellion from it is justified. If you tell yourself that the 'god' and the 'angels' are not actual deity or angelic beings, and simply fantastic creatures from another world, then it takes some of the controversy out.

I honestly don't know what Pullman's goal was. I'm not in his head. To me, it did seem to attack religion in general and God specifically. But if you can look past that and look at the merits of the books, then they aren't half bad. I still think a lot could have been cut, which would have greatly helped the pacing, and I think the end could have been better, but the story was good and the characters were wonderful.


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JeanneT
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One might question whether Judaism is a race or a religion. But let's drop it. You're right that the first part was on topic and I didn't mean to imply otherwise.


I agree that of the first one I thought the best part was the characterization. I really wish I had already read the others. I have used copies on hold at my favorite bookstore and will pick them up tomorrow. It is amusing, and Rowling pointed this out as well, that this kind of controversy inevitably increases book sales.

[This message has been edited by JeanneT (edited November 26, 2007).]


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mfreivald
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quote:
I'm deleting everything that isn't directly about Pullman's trilogy (or tea).

I couldn't think of a better fate for them, Kathleen. Thank you. I only wish it had come sooner.

Shouldn't there be a protocol of some kind

Note from Kathleen: I have deleted the rest.

There is protocol for posting on the Hatrack River Writers Workshop. It is on the registration
page

and on the introduction page

This is a forum for writing, not arguing for or against various takes on history or politics or religion, and so on.

The above two pages should be protocol enough.

[This message has been edited by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (edited November 26, 2007).]


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tnwilz
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HOWARD: I don't see it that way, Geoff. [sniff] Let me tell you what I think we're dealing with here: a potentially positive learning experience to get an--

GRIM REAPER: Shut up! Shut up, you American. You always talk, you Americans. You talk and you talk and say 'let me tell you something' and 'I just wanna say this'. Well, you're dead now, so shut up!


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annepin
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Hm... hoping onto to this discussion now that the smoke has cleared...

Robert Nowall, what do you mean by "commercial attempts to duplicate the effect of Tolkien"?

<spoiler>

I read all three books. Like some other posters, I was enraptured by the first book. And then, it all went down hill from there. Somehow the focus on Lyra's attraction to her friend Will was the downfall for me. It felt forced and unbelievable to me, and had me rolling my eyes and groaning. The ending felt weak to me, though I can't specifically remember what the ending was.

</spoiler>

However, I love the dark flavor of the books, and his setting, and much of what Lyra does. And I love many of his concepts--the subtle knife, that sort of thing.

As for tea, I prefer Lapsang Souchong, though I have been known to enjoy a cup of Assam, Keemum, or Sencha. (Now the Japanese and tea, there's a whole 'nother forum!)


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Robert Nowall
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quote:
Robert Nowall, what do you mean by "commercial attempts to duplicate the effect of Tolkien"?

Those books that fall into the commercial publishing category of "fantasy," that take elements of Tolkien's work, but rarely as effectively. Tolkien was a painstakingly thorough writer who brought a vast scholarship in language and literature to bear on what he wrote. This gave Tolkien's works depth and breadth on a virtually unprecedented scale.

Those who followed in Tolkien's footsteps wrote books that lacked this breadth and depth. Compared to Tolkien, the likes of Terry Brooks or Stephen Donaldson or Barbara Hambly or Katherine Kerr all the way down to any of the Dungeons and Dragons titles are just the publishing version of yard goods. This "Golden Compass" may be a good example---I haven't read it and can't discuss details, but the comments suggest it's another "heir of Tolkien."

I have fondness for some of these works. (I have a lot of affection for Niel Hancock and his "Circle of Light" four-book set---it came out in 1976, just as the fantasy genre was establishing itself.) But most of them? Well, to lift an analogy I heard the other day, "When you've had turkey, it's hard to go to tripe." Compared to Tolkien, they're tripe.


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annepin
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I'm curious what made you think it was Tolkien-esque. Thinking back on the book, I don't really see many similarities. There are no elves, orcs, or rangers, the elements I usually associate with Tolkien. The book is pretty well-founded on it's own mythology, but there must have been something in the packaging that triggered that thought for you. As a writer hoping, desperately, to avoid Tolkien's shadow, I'd like to know what it was, if you remember.
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Robert Nowall
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Again, I can't comment on what's in the books, 'cause I haven't read them. Mostly it was the physicality (the ubiquitous multi-volume series in this category of fantasy) and the jacket copy, and maybe the reviews.

Also the recent movie ads bring in a few more Tolkien-esque things.

Since you've read it, you'd definitely know better than I. It may still be worth a shot. I may take it someday, but not right now.


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TaleSpinner
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I agree with Robert. I think the comparisons with Tolkien are at a more abstract level.

Both stories are about an epic struggle of good against evil. Good is an underdog, whereas evil appears all-powerful. Evil is aligned with some truly awful monsters. The core story is a long journey with many false turns and challenges along the way. There are encounters in strange and faraway lands with exotic or terrifying creatures, some helpful, some not, and their intentions aren't always immediately apparent. Nice father figures get bumped off. When there's love interest it's peripheral to the story and one wonders why it's there.

Sure, that's a pattern for many fantasy stories. For me, Tolkien did it so well (though a bit long-winded in places) it's hard to follow.

In SF there are similar icons. For example, it's almost impossible to do robots after Asimov and Heinlein defined permissive futuristic societies in "Time Enough for Love".

Pat


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JeanneT
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It's epic fantasy. Part of the DEFINITION of epic fantasy is that it include a struggle between good and evil. That hardly makes it a rip-off of Tolkien. Saying that Tolkien was a wrote great epic fantasy so you'll never read anyone else seems a bit self-defeating. Of course you'll never like them if you never read them.

That's like saying Heinlein set his stories in the future, so anyone who sets a SF story in the future is ripping him off.

In fact, Pullman's works are not in the least "Tolkienesque" in my opinon. He used none of the trope that are associated with that description.


Edit:

quote:
There are encounters in strange and faraway lands with exotic or terrifying creatures, some helpful, some not, and their intentions aren't always immediately apparent. Nice father figures get bumped off. When there's love interest it's peripheral to the story...
All good things whether in SF or fantasy and hardly unique to epic fantasy NOR extremely Tolkienesque. I don't remember a single father figure getting "bumped off" in LotR.

So now we can only set a fantasy OR SF in downtown Trenton, NY for fear of being accused of being "Tolkienesque?" Heaven help us if we have an exotic creature? Love interests have to be centrail to the story? I seriously object to that since I DON'T write romances. I beg your pardon.

I'll choose to be "Tolkienesque" if those are my choices.

[This message has been edited by JeanneT (edited November 26, 2007).]


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annepin
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Tolkien said that he wanted to write a myth for England, and that's exactly what he did. But he himself pulled from mythology, and much of what you describe, Talespinner, is the archetypal heroic struggle and structure. Tolkien used it; he did not invent it. These days, it's difficult to tease out the differences, esp in fantasy, since Tolkien has, for many, become the definition of fantasy.

Maybe our preoccupation with these themes is the result of Tolkien's influence. I think that's changing.


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