There are many stories where mystical powers are actually technologically based, but I was unsure if any had been explicit about Jesus being an alien etc.

I realise this could be offensive to some, but it is fiction--I am not saying it's true. Presumably a christian's beliefs should be sturdy enough and they should be tolerant enough to be able to accept that this is a fiction. Who is offended by the idea?

1) Please don't limit your creativity based on whether or not somebody else would be offended by it. (I mean, if you're writing things classified as "hate," that doesn't apply.) How your new and/or creative words are received are not your responsibility. You writing a good story with the intent to make people think is your responsibility.

2) I think that you could have a deeper story, as well, if you looked at the concept that is almost always overlooked (imho), which is much more important to the entire "concept" of the man.

The miracles are easy. Walk on water (anti-grav boots), raise the dead (nano-regeneration), water into wine (molecular chemistry).

To deepen the alien's motivation, try to delve into why the alien came and took on that role. What was he trying to do. And why? Was it negative (social control, dichotimization of religions), or was it to help us lowly organisms evolve a bit so that we would be more open to First Contact. If you boil down the Jesus message from an extra-terrestrial's point of view, it could sound like this...

Warlike creatures, be at peace. (turn the other cheek)
Tribal-locked factions, be more accepting. (love thy brother as thy self)
Backwards but potential-filled humans, evolve so I can come to you as my real self! (I am the way, the truth, and the light. No one comes into my father's kingdom, but through me...)

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I realise this could be offensive to some...

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Someone will always be offended if you write something about religion, race, or politics. I think what matters is your intent behind the story. Some will write hateful material under the guise of "fiction", which I think is apalling.

I probably wouldn't read the story, but I certainly wouldn't go on a crusade to have your head if you wrote it. I usually just ignore something that's offensive unless it's directed toward me or my family personally.

I am glad no-one plans to hang me.

Actually I have tried a number of different starts to this story in the novel section on Hatrack. (Cuculus and Quantum Seed... if you want to look and comment, that would be great!) I have written two chunks so far. One 20000 words and one 40000 words, but I have been unhappy with how I have structured it.

I have a new structure in mind, which focuses more on the messianic nature of my protaganist. Religion and sci-fi seem to mix reasonably well, but this means I have to start again.

I'm sure some would be offended. Who and how many would depend on the nature of the story, whose Bible it re-interpreted and how.

The question is, do you care about causing offence?

I think that for artists to speak a truth as they see it is fine, regardless of whom it offends. But to set out to cause offence, or cause it through ignorance, that's not right and counterproductive, IMHO. (You're clearly in the first sentence, not the second, of this para, skadder.)

Or to put it another way: should stories have a moral basis, or can one speculate simply for amusement?

Just 2c,
Pat

[This message has been edited by TaleSpinner (edited December 06, 2007).]

[This message has been edited by TaleSpinner (edited December 06, 2007).]

A small part of me thinks that a little controvosy could help with sales...

If:

a) I actually complete it.
b} It's any good.
c) I get an agent.
d) We get a publisher.
e) It gets good reviews.

Meanwhile, try this:

http://www.geocities.com/evilsnack/cliche.htm

If it was cliche back in 1965, chances are good it still is. However, don't let that stop you from writing it, just don't be surprised when someone (particularly an editor or agent) rejects it because of it being a cliche.

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If it is a cliche, which I am not convinced of

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Mmmm, perhaps it is cliche.*swallows pride*

On a brighter note, as I stated earlier it is not integral to the story and I can eliminate it altogether yet still keep my story--no harm done.

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However, don't let that stop you from writing it, just don't be surprised when someone (particularly an editor or agent) rejects it because of it being a cliche.

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EXCUSE ME (now I am using caps!), but I have no plans to write a novel that is:

a) Cliche...and if I do it will be an accident.
b) Has a major strike against it in the eyes of agents and editors.
c) Is cliche.

If this were my idea, I might sit and ask myself some "what if" questions regarding it for a few minutes, jot ideas down, and see if anything comes out.

As an example:

What if...

... he was an alien, and he's still among us - nah

... he was an alien, but a secret cult of aliens living among humans trying to advance them enough to repair their space ship - nah

... he was a zombie

... he was a vampire

... he was an elf, dwarf, leprechaun or Valkyrie

... he was an alien, shapeshifting, zombie, vampire -- nah, nah, nah and nah.

Now I'm writing Beatles lyrics. When I get to that point, I usually give up but I'm not being so serious about the ideas (I hope that was obvious).

Not really.

I'm Christian, but I can handle other opinions. I know there seems to be a divide between science and religion. It seems to be that either one or the other must be true. But couldn't science simply be man figuring out how God did some of the things he did? I mean, we're starting to figure out how planets and galaxies are formed, but we can't do it ourselves. And by strict definition, isn't Jesus an alien? Didn't he come from Heaven to earth?

When it comes to cliche, of course everything has been done. Maybe you should find some stories where Jesus was an alien and see if your story is too close to them.

OSC has said he could give everyone in a room the same idea and everyone would write a different story.

A lot of the mags say they want originality, but when you read them, aren't a lot of them similar to other stories out there?

It has a messianic message, a mars-man. It's a very interesting story.

It might help you see how one of the masters did a similar theme, and did it very well.

When I did a post and mentioned a talking gun it inspired a few stories. So I can't really mention how this story is different. If you read it you wouldn't really think the story was about Jesus being an alien. I suppose you could say it was more about an alien who could have been Jesus, once, in some sense it's almost irrelevant to the story, I just wondered if it would ADD to the story to make that a fact or merely to leave it implied and possible, but never actually known.

Apart from Asimov and Artur C. Clarke I prefer more modern Sci-fi.

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the atheist way (he's just a scam artist, etc.),

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There is, of course, no one atheist way of looking at Jesus, but let me give you some links that give a somewhat more accurate idea of some fairly common atheist ideas, none of which involve Jesus being a scam artist. However, that idea might fit better into your story which is fine. I don't know that you have to use ideas that many atheists find probable.

http://www.depts.drew.edu/jhc/

http://pages.ca.inter.net/~oblio/jesus.html

Just for information purposes. I have no need or interest in prosylizing for atheism.

I'm not beginning a flame war here, just so people know. I find the information in the links JeanneT was kind enough to provide very interesting. It's just another aspect in which I find "fairly common atheist ideas" amusing.

I expected someone to flame me--or simply make insulting remarks as you did--for giving any atheist links, but if someone is going to write from a supposedly atheistic viewpoint they really should research what that viewpoint is in my opinion.

Personally, I don't really much care one way or the other. I could hardly believe Jesus is the "son of god", if he lived, since I don't believe in god.

However, I hope the link might help in deciding how to write on the subject. And the insults might help decide whether someone wanted to put up with flack they'd catch if they did.

Good luck with it if you decide to write the story, skadder.

[This message has been edited by JeanneT (edited December 06, 2007).]

So I guess I'm going to buck the trend and caution you on writing it. I have several reasons.

First of all, there are certainly different viewpoints on Christianity, even from within "Christendom", however there are definitely some populations who would be very offended by the implications of what you are writing. The reason they would be offended is not necessarily because of what you write, but what lies behind what you write. They would read into the statements you make in your novel, whether you claim they are truth or not, and they would take a logical step and assume that what you are writing comes from your own personal beliefs (not that you think Jesus was an alien, but that you don't believe he was the son of God). So that would definitely offend people.

More so, you will be messing with some very finely tuned doctrine. For example, I read earlier that someone said science was a way for us to understand how God performed his miracles (Forgive me if I'm misconstruing your statement with my paraphrase). Yet this is not consistent with doctrine. It alludes to the statement that if we could only just understand our universe scientifically to just the right degree that we would be able to imitate those miracles ourselves. Basically, it infers "gods in the making" status on humanity. However, even ignoring that, doctrinally, Jesus was able to perform the miracles he performed, manipulating nature the way he did, because he was nature's creator. He was the master in a way that we can never be. I'm not trying to sound picky or anything, but I hope you can see where your interpretation begins to split dramatically with the current interpretation. And the way much doctrine is set up, if one thing slips, then other things slip in following. This too would serve to arouse concern from a conservative Christian audience.

Furthermore, you are going to have serious believability issues. You will have to thoroughly convince your audience for the duration of time that they spend reading your story, that Jesus was an alien. This is going to be near to impossible for a conservative Christian audience, because everything in them is going to be rebelling against the idea. You won't find an audience willing to grant you temporary suspension of belief.

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So what I'm trying to say by all of that is, if you have your heart set on this idea, you had better write it very well and present very strong characterization in order to show your alien Jesus' motivations, etc.

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I would think that this goes without saying, whether you were writing about Jesus-was-an-alien, or just an alien named Hay-Zoos.

AstroStewart, J, can we at least make the semblance of trying to stay on topic?

Nice post.

However...

I don't mind offending people who don't think I should be allowed a different point of view than them. They are entirely allowed to hold their own beliefs and self-censor should they so wish to, but their right to censor my beliefs steps over the boundary and interferes with my 'God given' right to make my own decisions.

My view of Jesus is as follows:

I have never met him. I am not prepared to believe a book written by unknown people is necessarily true. I accept the possibility it is true--but quite frankly I don't know. I have seen nothing that disproves the existence of god, the other side of the coin is I have no proof (that satisfies me) of his existence.

If it is true, and Jesus did exist and was the son of God, I very much doubt he would have a problem with a novel suggesting he was an alien--again entities whose existence is unproven--as surely those aliens would also be products of god and therefore equally entitled to be 'his son'. Christains often quote the 'God works in mysterious ways' line and so I see no problem that if Jesus used (in a work of fiction) a high tech approach to miracles, if he had it at his disposal, as he was doing so to further his cause. Why does he need to do bonafide magic tricks-- I thought it was his message that counted? He preached tolerance and understanding.

Is it only the miracles that prove(?) he was divine?

Anyway it's fiction...it's all lies anyway, no matter what you write, isn't it? Aren't we all sinning?

If only I could sin enough and complete a bloody novel!

But I don't mind being offended, it gives me a chance to defend my beliefs and decide if I really believe that. It keeps me thinking. I don't think that someone else's personal beliefs is a reason to be offended as theworldinthewords said. (which is probably not what he meant to say.) To be offended that someone believes something different than you is so arrogant because you are declaring yourself to be the standard on which all other people should be judged. (Which is a title reserved for God.) I am offended by JeanneT's post, but I'm not offended that she believes it, nor that she shared her beliefs. I value her input to the conversation. Being offended isn't the worst thing in the world.

This is a very dangerous mission you have set for yourself.

You must not offend Aliens. They can be a nasty piece of work, Aliens, if they're offended. Some have rows and rows of big teeth, others drip mucous green stuff, and still others don't even want us to know they're in our midst.

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AstroStewart, J, can we at least make the semblance of trying to stay on topic?

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Of course that was intended to start a flame war, AstroStewart.

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Are we so afraid of offending each other now that responding to the content contained within a link someone has provided is now "off topic" or "intended to start a flame war?" If, in a discussion on editing a novel, someone provided a link to a site that suggests you NEVER edit your novel, and just label a first draft as a final product, the opinion of that website would certainly be critiqued and discussed. But giving my opinion on the links provided in this case means I'm trying to start a flame war, apparently...

All I was trying to point out was that the second of the two links JeanneT provided is contrary to mainstream historical fact, as accepted by historians and biblical scholars. Not to mention that a link to a site that proclaims that the historical figure, Jesus of Nazareth, never even existed is hardly a useful site in this context--a discussion about a story where Jesus was an alien. (He can hardly be an alien if he didn't exist, can he? )

Any insinuated insults in the tone of my comment was aimed at the historical veracity of the website in question, and nothing more.

Back to the matter at hand, though, in the end, write the story as best you can, in whatever way you want. Writing Jesus as an alien might limit your audience, but that can be said of any number of things. Adding an explicit sex scene to a novel limits your audience. Making your main character a certain age, or a certain gender, or a certain sexual orientation may limit your audience. Heck, just writing in a certain genre will limit your audience. At the end of the day, you shouldn't keep from exploring ideas based on the reaction they might bring. Explore the idea first, and if people don't like it, maybe that won't be your best-selling story ever--doesn't mean the story shouldn't be told.

I had no idea you were a biggot. The remarks you made about aliens were horrendously judgemental and biased, and I am going to make it clear right now that I stand firmly against you from here on out.

Everyone who isn't simple-minded knows that aliens are kind creatures, and they wouldn't hurt anyone. This growing racism against our kind cousins is really getting out of hand. Curse you, TaleSpinner, and your family!

Respectully yours,
Jay

http://www.gazetteofthearts.com/writer3.htm

There ya go. *raises eyebrows*

Back on topic. Aliens are a bit like unhousebroken puppies. A good smack with a rolled up newspaper will make them stop chewing on Talespinner's leg.

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Don't fall into the "nanotechnology = magic" trap, either...

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Every good SF/F that I can think of involves something that someone thinks is a cliche. The whold "shaggy god" thing came from a proliferation of "crashed spaceship crew who became Adam and Eve" stories. I think that one would be hard to save from clichedom, but if you could twist it around enough even that could be done.

It matters what you do with it and the quality of the writing not whether someone somewhere thought it was a cliche. As for whether it will offend some people, sure it will. Almost anything is going to offend someone. There are plenty of things that offend me. I refuse to ever read Donaldson's work for example. And he whimpers piteously all the way to the bank.

Now, I know almost nothing about the religion, but I do know that they belive a supposed 'mothership' will come and get all the believers in the end. A sort of science/alien version of the Revelations.

I'd find it fascinating if you aimed your story at Jesus being the Messiah, not of God, but of the alien beings that 'created' humanity. That would answer the question of why the alien Jesus would want to come to Earth and perform all sorts of miracles.

(p.s. not offended or anything, just wanted to give some clarification.)

I was making assumptions based on word-of-mouth, without further researching the matter. I read up about Scientology, and it's much more clear to me now. Quite fascinating actually.

It would still be pretty funny if there was a religion waiting for the mothership to arrive though, eh?

-Jay

That means I'm not at all offended by stories like DVC or Golden Compass.

I do respect religious people who are thoughtful and who respect the--different--views of others and do not seek to impose their views on the rest of us.

I think it might be possible to write a story whose premise is that Jesus was not of this world and, by aligning with an atheistic interpretation of historical records, make it credible to people like me, though probably not to those who believe he's divine.

Done skillfully, it might even not offend (if that matters). For example, the protag could wind up uncertain about the "Jesus is an alien" premise and the story could leave it to the reader to decide.

This might be a useful link for anyone interested in religion in SF:

http://www.adherents.com/lit/

I couldn't find any references to "Jesus is an alien" stories on it, so either I'm remembering wrongly and it hasn't been done (which I find a little hard to believe, with all due respect skadder) or they have been mysteriously deleted by aliens.

Thanks for saving me, Jeanne, I must remember to keep a rolled up newspaper next to the tea pot.

As for being a biggot, Jay, I thought size didn't matter.

On Heinlein: the novel with the "stargates" and "stobor" mentioned above is Tunnel in the Sky---y'know, up until this mention, I never noticed it was "robots" spelled backwards. (It wouldn't be the only Heinlein novel with word games in it.)

On Heinlein's rules: Heinlein formulated them, but, really, didn't stick to it. He revised here, there, and everywhere. He substantially revised some of his early work when reprinting it later. He'd cut his novels even before they got to an editor. (Really, get your work into the best shape possible before sending it out, and if that invovles constant editing, or no editing at all, do whatever works.)

It's a bit like writing a story where Adolf Hitler (not comparing Jesus and Hitler obviously) was actually a woman. You could leave clues in the text, so readers may suspect--but not actually say it. However the real story is actually about the woman before she becomes Adolf Hitler. So the reader then, by being privy to her thoughts, can surmise by the end of the story that this woman will begin to dress like a man and lead the fledgling Nazi party.

The story is never actually about Hitler, it's about a woman. My story bears a similar relation ship with Jesus and the alien. It's not really about Jesus, but I can strengthen the relationship or weaken it according to what I think--we think.

Now that's a good story.

I have zero interest in entering into a debate about it. In my opinion, it's not fair to fight with someone about their religion and it's entirely pointless. Regardless, I would never want to knock someone else's beliefs if it's making them happy and better able to live a good life.

So until I drink the magic kool-aid or become a kamikaze bomber, please respect me and agree to disagree.

1) Jesus IS an alien. He's certainly not from earth and never claimed to be.

2) All his "miracles" were scientific. He did them so they must be possible and they must be possible within the constraints of physics. We don’t know how he did them so we call them miracles. Humans don’t even understand the force that is gravity, so naturally when someone who does, circumvents its effects we call it magic.

Obviously I could go on and on about this. I think what your story really is about is a man who was actually an ordinary man with access to advanced tech that he didn’t invent or even necessarily understand. That my friend is where you will offend people. Take the most revered character in human history and say he was nothing at all. Just some guy with a ray gun and a tricorder who deceived everyone. Believe me, Pullman would be greatly relieved to have all the attention taken off him since your story makes him look like a saint.

You should first write a story about Hitler, the misunderstood hero. Just to see how you like that kind of attention in your life. If that goes well for you then go for the Jesus was an ordinary bloke who ran out of gas in orbit spin.

Actually, purposefully writing to offend has proven to be a very powerful marketing tool. It may however, be tantamount to selling your soul to the devil for money and success. If you believe in that stuff. What did they say in the great war? There are no atheists in a foxhole.

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I think what your story really is about is a man who was actually an ordinary man with access to advanced tech that he didn’t invent or even necessarily understand. That my friend is where you will offend people. Take the most revered character in human history and say he was nothing at all. Just some guy with a ray gun and a tricorder who deceived everyone. Believe me, Pullman would be greatly relieved to have all the attention taken off him since your story makes him look like a saint.

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