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Author Topic: Thoughts after reading Ender's Shadow
MartinV
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I've read the whole Ender's saga. Now I'm finally getting on with the Shadow saga. Finishing Ender's Shadow, I realized one important thing about myself: I don't know how to manipulate people.

Inevitably there will come a story in which I will need to have a character that is able and willing to manipulate other people into doing what he/she wants. The problem is I don't know how to do that, therefore how can I create a character that can do that as easily as breathing?

The dialogues in Ender's Shadow made this book one of the most enjoyable. There was nothing better than watching the officers and teachers giving Bean more and more information only by asking him questions. Also, the way the child-commanders speak with their child-soldiers in Battle School makes me think about how much information can be shared without actually speaking them out. Reading/listening between the lines, so to speak. To commend someone without actually saying "good work" or being cruel to someone by saying nice words to him (saying someone is better than all the rest so you make others jealous and resentful). Honestly, I would never think of dialogues like that.

How to practice word mastery? How to say something without actually speaking it out loud?

[This message has been edited by MartinV (edited September 27, 2008).]

[This message has been edited by MartinV (edited September 27, 2008).]


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philocinemas
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Martin -

First, I would like to say that I read Ender's Shadow before Ender's Game - I had seen that they were involving the same time period and series of events, so I chose Shadow based on availability. I don't know if it was because of the order, but I enjoyed Shadow more.

Now, regarding your question about manipulation:
Let me say at the beginning that I do not consider myself a natural manipulator (that sounds much too devious). However, I spent a combined seven years in direct sales, which I suppose could be considered the art of manipulation - that and politics. I had quite a bit of training on the subject during that time.

I believe manipulation is much easier on paper than in real life. The first important thing to remember is that people make 90% of their decisions based on emotions and only 10% based on the facts. However, manipulation can be much like a game of chess - if you can arrange the pieces during play in an unintimidating manner, you can control the board. Simple unobtrusive offerings then suggestions tend to control the pieces - "Here, have a Coke." (not asking, but offering). Then, ask a question with which they are obliged to agree - "Wouldn't you agree that..." starting with less objectionable questions. Repeat the process. Now is the tricky part. Once someone has agreed to enough unobjectionable questions, get them excited about whatever you want them to do - "Isn't this fantastic!"
Politicians use this the most. Offer something for the masses and then make a statement that cannot be questioned (immediately) - who cares if it is incorrect (most will never validate it, and pundits further the manipulation in one direction or another)

Now, there is a second form of manipulation that the Ender series utilizes - that of group acceptance and conformity. I understand that Ender's Game is a recommended book for those who seek leadership roles within the military. The military trains its soldiers by breaking them down as individuals, often ostracizing one or two, "who have let the platoon/company down", in order to create cohesiveness for the group and dedication to the group on behalf of the individual. Think of Private Pile in Full Metal Jacket or even Ender in Ender's Game.

If you would like more information on any of this I would suggest reading How to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie or any book by Zig Ziglar.


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KayTi
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I find that I don't like trying to manipulate people.

I want them to agree with me, certainly, and I will go to great lengths to persuade them, but it's all pretty much out in the open. I feel like to successfully manipulate someone you have to have that secondary purpose, that other reason. That's something I have trouble understanding/perceiving and virtually never do - so I get your point MartinV.

I think with many things, though, there will be times and pieces of story that will require us to research them. We'll do our research, we'll talk to people, we'll ask them questions enough to feel like we understand the core, and then we'll write from the heart as best we can.

And we will discover that we usually go back to what we know best, to our core essence, to the things we do, say, believe in. That's what will come through. I ready my stories and it's just completely clear to me from the stories what I believe, how I think. I find writing to be a really revealing exercise, to the point where I shy away from writing first person because it's just too close. Know what I mean? So ultimately most stories have something big and significant of me in there. It's how I write. Writing about something *other* than me is harder and takes more time and research, but we're writers - we can do that!


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Chunky Monkey Sr
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My only advice would be to look at how people are able to manipulate you. Do they get you to agree with what they are doing/saying because of some deeply held belief you have? Are they able to get you to justify things in order to relieve pressure?

I guess what I am trying to say is that, even if you aren't callous enough to manipulate others, there are always others trying to manipulate you. So watch and learn.


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Elan
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I am not a good manipulator, but I think I'm pretty good at observing human behavior. When a behavior is outside your "norm" it's hard to understand the rationalization used.

I've worked with domestic violence victims (who are manipulated by their abusers), and I have a close friend who's worked with prison inmates (who are themselves manipulators). One of the key components in manipulative behavior is a sense of entitlement. People go to great lengths to convince themselves, and others, they are entitled to their behavior. "She made me hit her." "He wouldn't give me the money so I had to steal it." There is no filter in place that stops these people from taking or doing what they think will get them what they want.

Most people have internal boundaries that abusers willingly cross... DV abusers will lie to anyone: the preacher, the judge, the police officer, their mother, their kids -- in order to perpetuate an image others hold of them and keep their abusive rage a secret. They will torture (in a literal sense) the person they abuse. They will too often follow up by killing something, or someone, to make their point. They go to dark places in their behavior most of us won't even consider, and in their thinking they see themselves as the victim, forced to this behavior because they are entitled to be in control.

Manipulators are often charming... on the surface. When you stop and think about it, "to charm" a person is a willful action. Think of being charming as a verb - a person is deliberately manipulating their behavior in an attempt to control an outcome.

My advice in writing a character like this is to consider what they want more than anything, and realize they'll be determined to get there no matter the cost because they will feel entitled to the outcome.


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satate
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Manipulation, not the evil sinister kind, is simply understanding the other person. I think I can be good at manipulating(again not the evil kind). I use it to aviod conflict, like with a two year old. Let's say she doesn't want to drink her milk and I say you get to drink it in the special sippy cup, do you want the purple one or the green one. She is glad to be asserting her independence and I am glad she is drinking her milk. I manipulated her into drinking her milk.

I think this is easy to do with writing because the author already knows what everyone is thinking. Just have the character be very good at deducing what the other character wants, needs, feels. He uses this knowledge to manipulate, or talk into what he wants. Also other ways to manipulate are to not tell the whole truth. Have the character know that if he say XY then the other character will be upset. He carefully constructs a story that leaves it out without it being completely off the truth. It's all in undestanding the other person and knowing which buttons to push when. As the author you're in complete control of that. If you're trying to manipulate someone everything has to be said carefully with the other person in mind. Often successful business people are great at this. They are good politically, manipulating their bosses and everyone to love them.

My husband thinks I'm good at manipulation because he's lousy at it. It's because he simply says whatever he's thinking at the moment without thought to how the other person will percieve it. So he might say yes the dress does look ugly on you and I hate that color.


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Grovekeeper
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As a minister, I find that I have become familiar with manipulation from both sides, as it were. On the one hand, I am familiar with those who manipulate others for their own ends. On the other, the counseling process is, at its core, a type of manipulation, done with the consent and for the benefit of the 'client'.

Manipulation is ultimately about perception. You cannot manipulate a person until you understand that person's motivations. Once you understand what a person wants, at a subconscious level (and this is often different from what he or she thinks or says he or she wants), you begin presenting paths of thought that lead the person to make decisions in accord with those desires.

One of the simplest ways to do this is with the presentation of the False Dilemma. My daughter, for instance, was very resistant, when she was small, to wearing clothes that were picked out for her. On occasions where clothing choice was important (such as a special occasion where more formal attire was proper), my wife would offer her a choice of outfits, each of which was acceptable to my wife. My daughter would then feel that she had the freedom to choose her own clothes, and would not resist. The false dilemma was that my wife presented only options that were acceptable, and my daughter neglected to notice that there were other choices that she could make; instead she chose one of the presented options.

Manipulation is not, in and of itself, a bad or wrong thing. It is a tool, and like any tool it can help or harm. The intent of the manipulator and the consent of the manipulated are the deciding factors in the ethical question.

-G


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