posted
I'm curious...do you guys think having say an English degree or some other sort of "formal schooling" or training in writing makes much difference to a typical magazine editor?
If so, whats the most helpful? English Degree? Writers workshops or creative writing courses?
posted
I don't know how an editor would find out if I had a degree. Do you include a resume with your manuscript? But seriously your writing should sell itself; any degree or diploma is beside the point. I am not saying that an English degree is not valuable to a writer, only that the knowledge gained from attaining that degree is more valuable. That said, some of the best writers that I have met have been completely self-taught. They did not have a degree in the end but still had attained the requisite expertise in writing to be published (or at least publishable). If you have the time, money and inclination, by all means pursue an English degree, it can't hurt, but don't expect the piece of paper to sell your fiction.
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posted
Let me clarify a little more...many publications do accept or even ask for cover letters, and I was acting on the assumption that if you have an English degree, or a certificate from a writing course or whatever, you would mention it...and again, some markets do even ask for such information.
I am actually of the opinion that such things arent likely to make much difference to most editors, and that certainly, the story is going to be the main thing. But I was interested in other opinions.
Also, magazine editors aside, how about agents, major publishers etc? What do they look for?
posted
I've wondered if a degree in English lit. (or English comp. or whatever,) would've helped me write better or get my work published.
I wonder now...then, when I was younger and had the time to go and get one, I didn't think I needed one. English lit. and lang. were generally the most boring of the classes I took, and I wondered what I could get out of them...
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I went to study physics after I decided to write. With time I realized I like to write stories where technology is not the most important part but understanding physics still lets me do certain things properly.
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David Farland's "Kick in the Head" covered this recently. He said he thought a degree could go both ways. First of all it would ground you in grammar, punctuation, etc. But on the flip side, few colleges had writing classes in genre, and fewer teachers had experience in marketing their work.
He encouraged college classes to the novice for the mechanics. Workshops, writing groups, seminars and conventions for continued growth.
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The univ of Oklahoma used to have a writing program that turned out publishing genre fiction authors. That was back when Dwight Swain and his successor Jack Bickham were in charge. I don't know how it's faring now. You might look into it.
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I believe earning a degree makes you a better writer, but having a degree doesn't.
Art is not like other jobs. In music or sculpture or painting or writing the experience of earning a degree can help you produce better stuff, but in the end it is the stuff that is judged, not the degree.
If you want to be a doctor or an engineer then your degree will be judged before they give you a chance to produce any stuff.
posted
I should also say that just because I didn't go for a degree in English lit. doesn't mean I went for a degree in anything else. Two years of community college and an Associate Arts degree at the end of that.
I was going to be something in "math / science / engineering," but by the end of it I was (a) intimidated by having to go elsewhere for more education, and (b) pretty sick of school and school work.
And there was also (c) I wanted to see if I could make a living at writing. I think you can all guess how that came out...
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The best writing advice I ever received was from one of my English PhD professors when I asked him whether or not a MFA was worth pursuing (at the time he and another professor were in full support of my enrollment to the Iowa's Writer Workshop). His simple answer and one that has guided me to this day was (loose paraphrase).......
'All the best writers and poets are shaped from the lives they live.'
I never went to Iowa or pursued any advanced degree after taking my bachelors.
All you need to know about the mechanics of writing should have been learned by your freshman year of High School (age 13-14). Getting advanced degrees will not NECESSARILY make you a better writer. Will it help? Without a doubt the pursuit of a higher level liberal arts degree such as English or Philosophy will expose you to ideas and works you might never experience. You will learn critical thinking skills when analysing the merits of the work studied. There's a reason most of my upper level philosophy courses were packed with computer science and mathematics students. You will learn different writing styles. You will develop your own writing style when are forced to express your opinions by employing the critical writing craft.
Do you need an advanced degree to be a better writer? Most certainly not. Will an advanced degree help you to become a better writer? I'd say that it certainly won't hurt.
My philosophy -- always pursue education based upon development and self-enlightenment in relation to life goals. Never pursue education for education's sake. Never pursue education for a title... NEVER PURSUE EDUCATION DUE TO MONETARY PURSUIT, many wealthy people don't hold degrees, and most don't have advanced degrees(they become wealthy through living, hmmm sounds familiar).
quote:NEVER PURSUE EDUCATION DUE TO MONETARY PURSUIT
This is just bad advice. Each level of education raises average salary, and lowers average unemployment.
Writing fiction is so much more than the mechanics you learn in freshman year. Learning from professionals is not just learning different styles. It's learning how to craft words together, how to create and develop characters, how to be true to characters, how to evoke place, how to create suspense, how to manage plot, etc. There are different theories for all of these, of course, but these are things that are teachable. I believe there are parts of writing that aren't teachable, but those are the exceptions.
Since I joined this forum I've taken classes from two very talented professors. People on this forum have seen my work improve immensely in the past year and a half. I've published. I say writing is teachable, because I've been taught.
I read in one article about MFA's, that most people would say that you can't teach someone to play the piano as well Mozart. But it would be absurd to say that you can't teach the basics, and even the complexities, of playing the piano.
I plan to attend an MFA program (after I go on a 2 year mission trip for my church, so it's a ways off), and my advise is to research. The programs that say they allow a writer to develop independently sound useless. I'm interested in the programs that don't look down on popular literature, that teach writing, that will let me focus on novel writing, and that have faculty that I want to write like. My list so far is Virginia Commonwealth University, Florida International University, and Columbia Chicago, and...there's another I can't remember, wherever Mort Castle teaches. Of course, things like financial aid, and whether or not I get in, will influence where I go.
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I think education is always good. It exposes you to new ideas, and new ways of thinking. Gaining an education purely for monetary benefit is a practical outlook, it's the way the world works. Gaining an education simply for self-enlightenment is great in theory, but has a hard time putting food on the table. If I had time and money I'd love to go and get a degree in English. My degree is in Elementary Education, but I almost finished a degree in music first, and music is what pays the bills. Music is like writing in that it is also an art. What I found in studying music is that it gives you more control. I had more tools. I learned to play a high F either soft, delicate, and in tune or loud and full. Then it was up to me to take those tools and create something great. I imagine that studying writing would give me the same things, better understanding of the craft and more tools. Using them to create great stories would be up to me.
FYI - Mozart was taught to play piano by his father who was a concert pianist himself. Of course his genuis came from within.
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Look, to each their own. A quick re-reading of my post would reveal to you that we are in greater agreement than disagreement. With that beig said, nothing in your post helps the OP at all, yet it does illuminate your level of utility in regards to the subject.
Having a MFA isn't going to guarentee any success. A MFA in and of itself isn't going to make your novel necessarily any more profitable or acceptable than the next. None, zip, nada. No level of education can. Higher education isn't necessarily indicative of better pay, you even indicate this in your post (averages are stressed). "Necessary" v "sufficient" is the critical argument here.
If wealthy people are all educated, then it would be true that all educated people are wealthy. This factually and logically just isn't the case.
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dinoroxxx said: >>If wealthy people are all educated, then it would be true that all educated people are wealthy.
Your logic is faulty. I'm not claiming that wealth implies education (good God, look at Paris Hilton). But if it did, that would not imply that the reverse were true.
A silly example to prove my point:
fact: Wood is flammable.
Conclusion (according to your logic): Everything that is flammable is made of wood.
posted
I read the original question as, "Is is helpful to list a degree in a cover letter for your story?" (Not, "Should I get an education?") I've read that for fiction, the credentials that matter are prior publications. For novels, I can see a science degree as worth mentioning for hard sci-fi, or experience as a police officer for a mystery, etc. Credentials are particularly helpful in a query for non-fiction.
There's a lot of advice out there about how to write an effective query. What made sense to me was, for a short story, keep it very short. The editor should spend his time reading your story, not your cover letter. But for novels, the query letter is an art form all on its own.
posted
I'd have to agree with MrsBrown. I've been putting my English degree in the query simply because I have no prior publications, but I've done a lot of writing in and out of school. I've even been putting my MS in Technical Communication in there just to demonstrate that I have been writing for a long time, even it isn't fiction.
Of course, I have yet to get an acceptance (and just started submitting over the last couple of months), so I could be way off. I just figure that it's got to be worth something!
posted
I think the degrees might help if you've got questionable theories in the piece, but for the most part--and it's been pounded into the ground around here for a couple of years--it's the story that sells the piece. If you've got a good enough story, it trumps everything. We try to tighten up our prose and eliminate clichés and other detrimental elements to give the story more attention than the writer.
If you're trying to sell a non-fiction book, medical- or scientific field thriller, or something else based on "special" knowledge, then it definitely will help. If not, it's whether or not the agent/editor/publisher is hooked enough by the story to read it, and satisfied enough with the ending that truly matters.
[This message has been edited by InarticulateBabbler (edited December 03, 2008).]
For the record, I already have an "education", from life and I'm not, truly, a big fan of organized schooling of any kind unless its necessary for what you want to do.
What I was asking is, as Mrs. Brown saw, basically just wether it looks extra good on a cover letter or not.
quote:If you've got a good enough story
quote:it's whether or not the agent/editor/publisher is hooked enough by the story to read it, and satisfied enough with the ending that truly matters
I mostly agree, except I think its a much simpler, more general matter of, quite frankly, whether the editor or agent likes/enjoys the whole story, or not, that makes the decision.
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