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Author Topic: Non paying and token payment markets
honu
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I have submitted a few stories now and have started getting my share of rejection letters The question I have is this: Is it better to send stories to non paying and token markets first to get yourself published faster or is it better to start at semi-pro and just work on your writing until you get it to a point that it's good enough to sell at that level. Or are editors at every level just as discriminating, anyway?
On the one hand, it would be nice to see a story published anywhere, but I also want to make some money at it at some point. What are you guys thoughts and experiences on this?

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steffenwolf
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It's totally a matter of taste, I think.
I've been sticking to pro markets so far, because my ultimate goal is to make it into the pro markets, but when i run out of pro markets for a particular story, I'll start sending it out to semi-pro markets. I personally don't think I'll submit to non-paying markets, but that's just how I feel.

I have heard that many semi-pro, token, and non-paid markets are very difficult to get into as well, but in some cases the acceptance percentages are much better. For instance, Duotrope lists Bewildering Stories (a non-paying market) as having a 60% acceptance rate. This is probably higher than the reality because people tend to under-report rejections, but compare to many other markets with 1 or 2% acceptance rates on Duotrope.

Fair warning: Getting published in non-pro markets may not help you get published in pro markets. I've heard the opinion of at least one major editor (Mike Resnick) that you should leave non-pro writing creds out of your cover letter, because they will only hurt your chances. If you have published nothing, they may consider you a fresh new face and will look at your writing with an open mind. If you claim non-pro credits, they may assume you couldn't "cut it" in the pros, so will give you less consideration. That's not my opinion, so I'm not going to defend that view, but something you might want to keep in mind.


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Robert Nowall
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If you have confidence in your work, start high and work your way down.
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TheOnceandFutureMe
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I start high and work my way down. I've got 3 sales - one non-paying, one token, and one semi-pro.
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Robert Nowall
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For the high-end, too...you shouldn't claim non-pro credits, in fact you shouldn't claim any credits. Unless you personally know the editor or have had some prior communication with him, you should just send the manuscript.
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rstegman
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I was taught to start at the highest paying market for your story. With each rejection, go to the next lowest until you run out of markets or you get it published. One guy I knew had dozens of stories in the mail, sending them back out the moment they returned. He got a few published while he was at it too.
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steffenwolf
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Robert,
Why shouldn't you claim any credits? Most places ask for a cover letter, so if I had pro credits I would mention them in the cover letter.

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tchernabyelo
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I'll join the chorus. Start ambitious and work your way down the payscale.

It's much more helpful to know the highest level your writing will sell at, than the lowest.

I sold the first time out of the gate to a pro market. It can be done.

And most magazines won't take any notice of your other publishing credits unless they are from markets they know and respect. Building up a portfolio of "published" work is pretty meaningless in terms of moving to the "next level up", though that isn't to say it's necessarily without any purpose or merit.


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Robert Nowall
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One of those things about "professionalism" they insisted on when I was starting out, that stuck with me. Your story should be judged on the story itself, not your credentials. If the story is good, they buy it; if it's not, they bounce it.

(Or so I thought before realizing how many people no brighter than I am got where they were by going to "the right schools," and so on, and so forth.)


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steffenwolf
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The story will definitely be judged on the story itself, but if I (for example) have published a story in Asimov's and I mention that in a cover letter to F&SF, it might make the slush reader more optimistic about my potential. At the least, I figure it couldn't hurt.
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honu
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Great Answers guys!!! I've got 7 stories being read (or slushed atm)....And another 2 close to send out....all to semi-pro and up markets...I just wasn't sure what would be the most successful way to do it, rather than learn to write well fast....
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Spaceman
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What will publishing in a non-paying market gain you? It's pretty much worthless. Even token payment means somebody liked your work enough to pay for it.
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Brad R Torgersen
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Pro editors think semi-pro and amateur credits are worthless, so the notion that you have to "work your way up" is not true.

Better to aim high, and keep aiming high. Dave Wolverton recently addressed this in one of his e-mails. And Dean Wesley Smith harps on it endlessly. Keep your stories out to pro-pay markets as long as is humanly possible. If you're always selling to the low-end, how can you prove you have what it takes to make it on the high-end?


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steffenwolf
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Also regarding Dave Wolverton's recent email, I think he also said that once you break in with a few stories, your old rejected stories suddenly become sellable at the pro level because of name recognition.
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Brad R Torgersen
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I sure hope so! Lord knows we see plenty of Names selling less-than-stunning material to the top markets. Which is not to say we should aim for less-than-stunning on every story. But it would be nice to think that something which is better-than-good without being amazing, is still "pro" enough to warrant a sale.
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extrinsic
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Why does anyone write?

For profit? Not much money in the short-story marketplace, from none up to 10¢ a word, and at a thousand to one odds, slim chance of publication and payment, perhaps a little higher pay for a very few outlets through contests and such, but greater odds. Though the shorts marketplace is the traditional apprenticeship track toward a breakout in novels, a very few writers breakthrough into novels right out of the box.

Novel profits, though?
"On average it takes 475 hours to write a fiction title."
"The average royalty is 10.75% of net."
"[Publishers]Most had print runs of 2-5,000 copies."
"40% of manufactured books are returned."
"Many advances are between $1,500 and $7,500."
"70% of books published do not earn out their advances."
"5,000 novels, 200 first novels and 100 scripts are purchased [acquired for publication] each year."
For accomplished authors, 475 hours of work to make between $3 and $15 an hour, the lower end being closer to the norm. However, at least one publisher, Peachtree Publishers, reviews 25,000 unsolicited manuscripts a year and publishes only 20. Lots of unpaid 500 hour committments to novels.

Then there's the attraction created by the rare anecdote of a first novel paying a million dollar advance, earning out the advance, and resulting in bigger and better contracts for future titles.

From personal interviews with agents and publishers, and Department of Labor statistics, $30,000 is the average annual gross income for full-time novelists in the US, roughly 80,000 full-time novelists worldwide, 8,000 in the US.

Writing can't solely be for the money, but for a very few talented, blessed by Providence, or fortunate authors. Perhaps the anticipation of profits is a motivating force, but not if the money is for so few and far between.

What else? For the recognition of an approving audience. Lots of heartache and frustration on the way to market, shunning, rejection, disapproval, humiliation, solitude for an emerging writer.

To share a story?
"81% of the population feels they have a book inside them.
27% would write fiction.
28% would write on personal development
27% would write history, biography, etc.
20% would do a picture book, cookbook, etc.
6 million have written a manuscript.
6 million manuscripts are making the rounds.
Out of every 10,000 children’s books, 3 get published.
--Jerrold Jenkins. 15 May 99.
http://www.bookpublishing.com.

For me, recent writing epiphanies have shown me why I read, why I write, to connect meaninfully in what ways I can. Reading a good story vicariously places me in deep connection with thinking, feeling social beings and their vivid worlds. Writing a story explores my needs, my wants, my hardships, my world in ways that I seek to connect meaningfully with my world. Part catharsis, part therapy, part entertainment, part wishing for profit as concrete reward, recognition, and approval, I know now why I write. So for me, yes, the top-end approach first, of course, to reach a wider audience; but solely for approval's sake, nonpaying or token markets aren't out of the question.

[Cited stats from Dan Poytner's Parapublishing, http://bookstatistics.com/sites/para/resources/statistics.cfm.]


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snapper
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All very good points ladies and gentlemen. As all of you know, the pro avenues are very hard to crack into, and most offer very little feedback.
The lower end markets get their share of submissions so don't always expect an easy sale. The editor of alienskin told me they receive 300 submissions an issue. On The Premises publishes the amount of submits they received as well. (154 last issue).
A benefit to making a sale at any price is it is a moral booster. Rejections are a drag. Having anyone tell you they like your writing enough to want to put it out for all to read just feels damn great.

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Brad R Torgersen
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I'm approaching a lifetime word total of 800,000 without a pro sale.

I understand the "art" and "ctharsis" side of this whole thing, absolutely. And the few non-paid publications I've had -- especially the radio serial -- were a gas when they happened.

But I want more than that now. I'm not content to just fiddle on fanfic or 4-dah-luv fic. There are probably hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of fanfic and 4-dah-luv fic writers in the U.S. alone. And while I hate to sound like I am trashing on them, my goal is to prove that I am BETTER than just a fanfic or 4-dah-luv fic writer.

My goal is to be a 4-REAL pro fic writer. Even if it means only 1 short story in 100 sells. Even if it means only 1 novel in 10 sells. I have resigned myself to the fact that I am willing to take the hits, and the sorrow, if it means I can at least secure some bona fide pro success.

Maybe that means I am just being a sheep and playing The Game, as it were. I know lots of writers think that Business As Usual in the pro fiction world is bunk, and that writers who work hard to sell and who only pursue pro sales, are literally selling themselves out.

Me? I want to walk into a Barnes & Noble or a Borders or even a (dream high!) grocery store or Wal-Mart, and see my novel(s) sitting on the shelves. With (dream high!) awesome, expensive covers on the front. Foil, embossed lettering. End-cap stands. The whole enchilada.

Maybe I'll never get there. But I've learned that the things in this life which are worth doing and pursuing, are usually the things that are the most difficult.

The level of satisfaction and reward is directly tied to the level of difficulty in achievement. That's my life axiom.


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Robert Nowall
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I haven't added up my totals lately, but it was about a one-point-five-million word count last time, and probably no more than another hundred thousand or so since. (Finished work, that is.)

I should say that I'm not totally ruling out my submitting to some so-called bottom market...I have in the past and may do so again...for reasons like, say, I like the market, or I'm doing a favor for a friend, or maybe I just felt like it that day.

But right now I generally get a couple or three bounces from the pros, and zingo! I put the story up on my website. (Not that there's any new activity; I've written a good deal, but not put anything in a finished state since sometime last year.)

[edited to correct a spelling error---hope it's the only one.]

[This message has been edited by Robert Nowall (edited December 18, 2008).]


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honu
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Wow, statistics are a bummer, huh? Just kidding Setting the odds aside for just a moment....there are days when I pick up a newspaper and read about the latest bombing, or market crash, or floundering industrial American institution seeking bailout... and yearn for a little escapism. In times past, I would pick up one of favorite authors and retreat for a while///then I discovered that I could create my own worlds and realities and people them and enjoy putting them into fixes and trying to figure out how to get them out....So I guess what I am also seeing here is...writing is wonderful...just for it's own sake by the way, I've eaten a few pigeons....doves in teriyaki sauce are much tastier

[This message has been edited by honu (edited December 18, 2008).]


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Spaceman
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Brad, my token-payment comment came from Dean Wesley Smith.
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Brad R Torgersen
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Bingo. Dean is relentless, when it comes to pay vs. non-pay.
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philocinemas
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I don't want to derail this thread, but this dialogue reminds me of something I remember seeing on Star Trek: TNG.

In one episode, Dr. Soong (Data's creator) asked Data why he thought humans procreated. It is actually a very philosophical question. Soong's arguments against having children were very practical at many levels. And though children do provide an altruistic effect, which is very self-satifying, there is definitely more to it than that.

There is something amazing about having this little person, who is a part of you and who you contribute to in character and knowledge (even for those who adopt).

In the episode, Soong suggested procreation was a means of obtaining a kind of immortality. Part of you continues living on in this person and in his/her descendants.

In some ways, not nearly to the degree of having children, I believe writing serves the same purpose.

[This message has been edited by philocinemas (edited December 19, 2008).]


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tchernabyelo
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Statisics are interesting. Statistics are useflu. Statistics are also, however, potentially very misleading.

The probability of a bad novel being published is very very very low indeed (this i not the same as saying "but novels I don't like get published all the time!". Novels many people don't like are published all the time. Novels NOBODY likes are published very very rarely indeed). The probability of a really good novel being published is much hgher. But it will take time, which will take persistence, and probably luck as well.

That's the magic triumvirate: persistence, talent, and luck. Without at least two of those three, you'll never get anywhere. With all three, you stand a MUCH better chance than most people.


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extrinsic
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Stats are stats, subject to interpretation, subject to intents and purposes for which they weren't compiled, subject to surveyor bias. Poytner's listing of stats is full of contradictory information, too. It's interesting to note that a survey conducted in Britain found that a significant number of people are not truthful about their reading habits.

"Be wary of statistics on reading. Numbers will vary depending on how the question is phrased. When asked if THEY read books, many people will inflate the figure to appear knowledgeable and scholarly.

'40% of people admit to lying about having read certain books, according to a study published last year by the Museums, Libraries and Archives Council.'
--BBC News, http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/7178598.stm″ Para Publishing, http://bookstatistics.com/sites/para/resources/statistics.cfm

As far as royalties are concerned, it's not about whether buyers read, but that they buy.

[This message has been edited by extrinsic (edited December 19, 2008).]


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