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» Hatrack River Writers Workshop » Forums » Open Discussions About Writing » What changed your writing?

   
Author Topic: What changed your writing?
Nicole
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I'm interested in hearing about what piece of advice substantially changed they way you write.

I would like answers that went beyond "show, don't tell", even though I know it's a valid response. I'd like to know a bit about how it changed you too.

As an example, I don't think I'll ever write again without having in mind the Scene-Sequel structure from Techniques of the Selling Writer. It completely changed the way I think about ideas, how I play with them and how I expand on them.

So, how about you?

P.S.:If you see a silly mistake, don't worry, I'm not an idiot, just learned English by myself.

[This message has been edited by Nicole (edited June 27, 2009).]


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Kathleen Dalton Woodbury
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Will Shetterly told me that if I wanted to write short stories, I should read WRITING IN GENERAL AND THE SHORT STORY IN PARTICULAR by Rust Hills, which I did. The next story I wrote appeared in WotF volume 9.
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Nicole
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Wow.

I should find that book.

Kathleen, do you recall a specific advice or technique you used in your story that came from that book?


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Merlion-Emrys
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I guess one biggy for me would be the point of view thing. It's not a concept I was even familiar with before I began writing seriously. Its now something I take into account when writing, although (as we're discussing in another thread) I think worrying about it can be taken to far and its important not to be straightjacketed by it.

But I think learning of it, and learning all the different levels and classifications people have for it has definitely been useful.

Most of the changes to my writing are of a technical nature and have happened a little bit at a time with small details here and there over a period of years. Most have come from people who have read my work pointing things out.


I think bigger changes have taken place as far as my storytelling moreso than in my writing, based on growing and changing as a person.


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Kathleen Dalton Woodbury
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Well, the main thing that sticks in my mind was his comparison of what he referred to (if I remember correctly) as day dreams (or wishful thinking) and night dreams as sources for stories.

He felt that stories based on day dreams tend to be fluffy and shallow, but stories based on night dreams (which come from the subconscious, and, supposedly, Jung's "collective unconscious") have a lot more depth and power.

He also talked a lot about the importance of unity in short stories, meaning one-ness: one main character, one setting, one time period, one struggle, and so on. A short story should be about the single most crucial event in a character's life, the biggest turning point, the realization that makes all the difference.


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InarticulateBabbler
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Sir Arthur C. Clarke (paraphrased, because I'm unsure where to find the exact text of the quote):

quote:
Our job as writers is not to make the reader understand; it's to make make it so the reader can't possibly misunderstand.

Algis Budrys (again paraphrased, because all of my books but three are packed up):

quote:

A story must have two try/fail cycles, then the protagonist must learn something he didn't know and then he may try and succeed.

quote:

Anything you want the reader to believe, say it three times; no more or less.

quote:

Books are basically a bunch of short stories called chapters.

...of course, he was a fountain of good advice. (RIP)

David Farland:

quote:

The setting must intrude on every scene.

quote:

Trees can march, hills can climb. Use active words in your beginning.

quote:

There are words that resonate with every genre, use them to help identify with the reader. Certain cliches are okay, too, if they help identify the genre.

quote:

Setting a scene with "skeletal trees" that "reach for the sky like a corpse diggin out of a grave" is an example of using the opening to foreshadow danger or evil.

quote:

Replace as many adverbs as you can with stronger verbs, but not to the point of killing the voice.

Lawrence Block:

quote:

The best advice I can give someone who would like to write for a living is: Don't. If they persist, I telle them to get so drunk you pass out on the couch, and when you wake up with a hangover, ask yourself if you're sure you want to do this.

Kevin J. Anderson:

quote:

Don't wait until you can find time to write; make time to write. Bring a laptop with you, or a steno pad, and use every free moment--when you're waiting for a doctor's appointment; a bus; during lunch break.


[This message has been edited by InarticulateBabbler (edited June 27, 2009).]


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MAP
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The writting advice that change my writting was when I read on a website (and I don't remember who said it or where I found it) "Only when our characters defy us do they truly live." Or something to that effect.

That was when I realized that I was forcing my characters to do things they wouldn't do to advance my plot.


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dee_boncci
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What a great question!

I have to say probably the biggest change in my writing came when I read Jerry Cleaver's book, Immediate Fiction. What influenced me the most was his model for dramatic stories, and the process of applying the model both in the drafting and revision stages. Some might find the model simple-minded, but for me at the time it was just what I needed.


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Nicole
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quote:
I guess one biggy for me would be the point of view thing.

Yes, point of view was another big change for me as well. I was a head-hopper before, not much but enough to disorient even myself.I learned that here at Hatrack.

quote:
He also talked a lot about the importance of unity in short stories, meaning one-ness: one main character, one setting, one time period, one struggle, and so on.

quote:
What influenced me the most was his model for dramatic stories, and the process of applying the model both in the drafting and revision stages.

These kinds of changes are the biggest for me, because they change the structure of the story you have in your head, so it gets reworked with that perspective in mind.

quote:
That was when I realized that I was forcing my characters to do things they wouldn't do to advance my plot.


The funny thing about having a "writer's epiphany" is that you can get it from one sentence or a whole book. You read it and a light descends from the heavens and illuminates a braincell.

quote:
A story must have two try/fail cycles, then the protagonist must learn something he didn't know and then he may try and succeed.

I read the same thing in the book I mentioned. Try is Scene and Fail is a sequel, they go round and round. However, I'm testing that and not all books I considered gripping have the same structure.

The strange thing is, to me, that even though I know all those things we mentioned will help my writing and I want it to, I can't make it appear in my writing.


[This message has been edited by Nicole (edited June 28, 2009).]

[This message has been edited by Nicole (edited June 28, 2009).]


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Robert Nowall
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A couple of years ago, someone, who used to post here but I guess doesn't anymore, read one of my stories and pointed out (among many other things about the story) that my characters weren't particularly likeable. I got to thinking about that, and realized it panned across most of the original stuff I've written for about ten years previous. (Excluding fan fiction.)

It had an impact on me. I realized I didn't particularly want to write about jerks and boobs and all that. I dropped a couple of stories I'd been working on, and have suppressed some others in the idea stage, looking for that elusive likeablilty in character. (Of course, I think I've only completed two stories since then...)


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Unwritten
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I first heard it here on Hatrack, but I think Hemingway said it.
quote:
Kill your little darlings

which to me means I can't get so caught up in one perfectly worded sentence or interesting plot twist that I lose the rest of the story. If it's so delicious to write that I want to read it over and over, it almost always needs to be cut. It's horrific how true that is.

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InarticulateBabbler
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Hemingway may have coined the phrase, but Stephen king made it famous in On Writing.
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mikemunsil
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Understand that writing is, first and foremost, a craft. Learn how to use all the right tools for the job first, before using the wrong tool in a new way.

Paraphrased as: "Yes, you can build a house with just a hammer, but you first need to know how to cut down a tree with an axe, before you [u]try[/u] it with a hammer."


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skadder
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quote:
Yes, you can build a house with just a hammer, but you first need to know how to cut down a tree with an axe, before you [u]try[/u] it with a hammer

You can cut down a tree with a hammer? Well, I never...

[This message has been edited by skadder (edited June 28, 2009).]

[This message has been edited by skadder (edited June 28, 2009).]


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A.Windt
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actually, it was no ressource or media that made me write better. i've read quite some books on writing, from card to stein, frey and whatshisname. they all had something unique that made me see things clearly.
but the biggest step in my progression as a writer happened when i found my mentor. she's a great critic and author and pointed me out sentance by sentance where my text's problems were. she made me think and rethink and work harder. also, she made me fully visualize a scene before writing, and this may have helped me most.
i owe her alot.

[This message has been edited by A.Windt (edited June 28, 2009).]


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KayTi
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A quote in one of the pep-talk emails from National Novel Writing Month last year (NaNoWriMo)

I'll paraphrase, because I don't have the exact quote handy. It was from Phillip Pulman, author of the Golden Compass trilogy (excellent series.)

quote:
People often ask me where I get my ideas from. I tell them I have no idea where the ideas come *from*, but I know where they come *to*, and that's my desk. If I'm not there, they go away.

It reinforced to me the importance of that writing habit. I'm not particularly good at this yet, but it's a really powerful line that I have retold time and time again.


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Unwritten
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Well, you may it famous to me, IB.

And KayTi-I remember that one. It's a good one.


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Nicole
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I like the fact that many of you paraphrase, it means the line really stuck with you.

A.Windt: I guess a mentor should be nice, if only because writing is such a solitary craft.

KayTi: That is a very interesting quote. I love Pulman's Golden Compass.
Maybe I need better plumbing because he sits at his desk and gets *those* ideas while I sit at my desk and get...something else, a tingling butt after a few hours maybe.


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philocinemas
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Hello, my name is philocinemas and I'm an omniscient POV addict.

Before I came here I used to not be able to go more than a few paragraphs without hopping a head. It had completely taken over my writing. One day, during a Fragments and Feedback critique someone did an intervention with me. Until then, I didn't even realize I had a problem. The first step was to realize there's a higher power - the editor. The other steps followed. I am now 200 days clean.

I still struggle with limited perspectives, and I'm also working on my problems with purple prose, but I have to take one addiction at a time.


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Nicole
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Hello, philocinemas. Haha, your post made me laugh.

This place does change you, doesn't it?


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Owasm
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Doggone it! I'm still trying to get my writing to change.

Actually the first slap on the side of the head for me was a flash challenge at Liberty Hall and seeing my neophyte writing next to some good stuff. I realized I had a huge amount to learn about recognizing what was bad about my writing. That had more initial affect than subsequent books I've read about writing.

That's when I had to make a decision to really work at writing better or not write at all. I'm still learning, but it's improved from where it was thanks to rubbing shoulders with my betters.

[This message has been edited by Owasm (edited June 29, 2009).]


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Merlion-Emrys
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quote:
Before I came here I used to not be able to go more than a few paragraphs without hopping a head. It had completely taken over my writing. One day, during a Fragments and Feedback critique someone did an intervention with me. Until then, I didn't even realize I had a problem. The first step was to realize there's a higher power - the editor. The other steps followed. I am now 200 days clean.

I still struggle with limited perspectives, and I'm also working on my problems with purple prose, but I have to take one addiction at a time.



Just don't get rid of them entirely. omni POV and "purple" prose have their place...its another thing that depends on story type. Those things are tools too.


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Kathleen Dalton Woodbury
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Nicole, you said
quote:
The strange thing is, to me, that even though I know all those things we mentioned will help my writing and I want it to, I can't make it appear in my writing.

There are a couple of things you can try to help with this.

First, you can study the things you want to have appear in your writing, by reading how-to-write stuff that talks about them and then by looking for them in the fiction you read (even going so far as to underline them when you find them in fiction, if you like). If you do this diligently enough, some of it will sink into your subconscious, and you will make some of those things appear in your writing without really thinking about it.

Second, you can make a list for yourself of the things you want to make appear in your writing. Then, after you've written out your first draft of a story (please, note that I said "after" because you don't do this until the story is already completely written out), go though the story and make notes to yourself about where you can put those things into the story.

Then, go through the story and rewrite it so that the things go in. The more you do this, and the first approach above, the more likely it will be that some of these things will enter your stories automatically.

It's a matter of teaching your subconscious what you want from it, as well as training your Editor-on-Your-Shoulder to help you watch for opportunities to include things in your story that you want there.

I hope this made sense.


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Kathleen Dalton Woodbury
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By the way, I had the impression that F. Scott Fitzgerald first said, "Kill your darlings," but I googled it and, apparently, it was William Faulkner. <shrug>
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Nicole
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It made a lot of sense, Kathleen. I had never thought of doing that, I always assumed the new stuff had to "appear" there somehow, naturally. I'm going to do what you said. Thanks

I read about "Kill your darlings" in the Holly Lisle (?) website. I've been a serial killer since then.

Owasm: Hehe. "The betters" is a nice term. Though I flashedback to The Others and Hatrack suddenly seemed creepy.

[This message has been edited by Nicole (edited June 30, 2009).]


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KayTi
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Philo - I just read a book in omni, or at least I think that's what the author was trying to do - and it was pretty disorienting, a lot of head-hopping. I hope that your omni addiction recovery has brought you to write in a clear way for the reader, because honestly, every style/POV choice is doable in today's market, but certain ones are more popular and will be easier to find markets for. My recent somewhat negative experience with omni only furthers my desire to stick with limited third (though I do keep hearing the first person sirens calling my name...)

And meanwhile, King uses the expression "murder your darlings" which I think has just such a nice little sadistic resonance to it. That's what I think of when I'm going through with the red pen on my WIP. Die, adverb, die! And yes, then I picture that part from the 2nd Harry Potter movie when he stabs the diary with the basilisk fang and the diary spurts ink as it dies. Lovely imagery.


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skadder
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quote:
Will Shetterly told me that if I wanted to write short stories, I should read WRITING IN GENERAL AND THE SHORT STORY IN PARTICULAR by Rust Hills, which I did. The next story I wrote appeared in WotF volume 9.

I biught this book on Kathleen's recommendation and have found it pretty good. It is angled towards a literary style (and anti plot driven stories), but I could do with a little more depth to my stories and characters and so will try and blend the two a little more harmoniously. Certainly it is full of great advice.

Adam


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annepin
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This one piece of advice changed my writing:

Read, read, read; write, write, write; faster, faster, faster!

[This message has been edited by annepin (edited July 06, 2009).]


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satate
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Joining Hatrack changed my writing the most. Before I had read a few writing books and they helped a little. I also got my mom and husband to read my stuff but my husband always said it was good and my mom just pointed out typos. I didn't have the time to go join an in person writing group but coming here and critiquing others work and having others look at mine has changed my writing faster than I could go back and edit the old stuff.
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BoredCrow
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There were two really crucial steps for me:

1) Reading other peoples' stories.
No, really. I was used to being a passive reader, and this applied to my own stories when I was trying to edit them. As I learned what I did and didn't like in stories, I also started reading fiction a different way, and learned what qualities I wanted in my own writing. Of course, getting those qualities into my story was a whole other trial.
(And yes, learning to accept constructive criticism was utterly crucial, but for me, not as important as the above.)

2)Establishing writing hours
I have a period of time set aside each night when I write (right now, though I do allow myself breaks if I'm stuck. Some nights are better than others). I managed to get into this habit by being obsessed with my newest novel. And by the time I got it done, after many months, I'd managed to form the habit. It's really amazingly true for me the quote that KayTi posted. I can't seek out inspiration; I just have to sit and write every night and practice receiving it.

And none of this would be possible if I hadn't found Hatrack. ::hugs the forum::


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Doug Bradshaw
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Wow, this thread is gold.

I hope it's OK if I mention something that, while not a piece of writing wisdom, has still changed my writing--the software I use to write. When I first began writing a daily word quota, I patched a word processor so that it would update the word count in real time by recounting all the words each time I entered a character.

The algorithm was so wasteful that by the time I got to 1000 words the program would start to hang while I typed. The result was that my chapters stayed short and focused.

Later I went back and made the update more efficient. My chapters ballooned back to a more normal size. I haven't verified this outside of my own opinion, but I think that the slow algorithm actually gave my story a faster pace.


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Natej11
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I've got to be honest, what changed my writing most was pounding out page after page. As I went along I'd learn things from various sources that really helped out, which I'd try to include in my writing. It was an evolutionary process, and probably incredibly inefficient, but I keep on learning and writing.

Also I joined a Hatrack group a few years ago, back when they still existed. It fell apart after about a year but it helped a lot to be reading another writer's work every week and learning to critique with a critical eye.


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JenniferHicks
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Last summer at a WorldCon panel, Sheila Williams (editor of Asimov's) said the first sentence of a short story should tell the reader what the story is about. I've been trying to follow that advice, but I didn't realize until months later that I had misunderstood her. I thought she was referring to the story's action, but what she was talking about was theme. Not what happens in the story, but what it's about.

Until I had that epiphany, I hadn't thought much about themes in my writing. If I was including them at all, it wasn't on purpose. Now I'm making more of an effort to understand what my stories are about before I start writing. If I have a theme in mind from the first sentence, the story as a whole (I hope) ends up with a better sense of one-ness (as Kathleen put it).


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keithjgrant
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The comments & critiques on this forum helped me a lot with POV.

One thing that make a marked difference in my writing was advice to show characters' nonverbal communication: expressions, gestures, stance, etc. I had to make a conscious effort at first to add it in (and it still occasionally takes me a while to figure out how to best communicate what I intend), but I think it makes a noticeable difference. It makes up most of how we communicate in real life, but for some reason, I didn't always expect it to be as important in narrative.

Another thing I've heard recently and am still exploring is the power of contradictions in a character. Two conflicting emotions for example, or actions/dialogue that directly contradict emotional state.


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