posted
Something to consider when writing other-worldly science fiction:
I have always been amazed that so few science fiction writers address the potential problem of microbes on alien worlds. In The War of the Worlds, one of the staples of sci-fi literature, these little guys saved our planet. However, elsewhere in the universe they are likely to be our greatest enemies. Hopefully, we will be able to communicate with intelligent life or manage creatures that are not self-aware. But with all the challenges of finding life-sustaining planets out there with just the right balance of oxygen, hydrogen, and nitrogen to allow us to walk around without helmets, I believe microbes will be our greatest challenge.
OSC is one of the few authors who has addressed this (in Speaker for the Dead and subsequent Ender books). But even he limited it to only one virus - the Descolada.
If we do find another planet out there and discover some way to get there, I suspect there will be more than one of these little killers to deal with.
posted
Ben Bova addresses the issue of contamination from both directions--humans contaminating alien environment and alien contamination of humans. Hard SF stuff.
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posted
Microbes certainly could be the greatest threat to us on another planet, but that really depends on how similar we are to the alien life on that planet.
Even on our own planet most bacteria and viruses are species specific. Random mutations have to occur before a virus can jump from one species to another (like we saw with swine flu), so it doesn't happen very often.
These alien microbes would have evolved specifically to infect the alien life form, so jumping to an alien species would not be easy for them. Even if we were similar to the alien life, it may take years after colonization before the alien microbes are able to infect us, and if we are radically different from them, generations.
Also remember that we will be bringing our own microbes to the planet, so the alien life could as easily be infected by us (like what happened to the native americans).
posted
I'm actually working on something along these lines...
I'm more interested in how fast microbes mutate when spread to a new environment or when people tinker with them.
I'm working with human seeded colonies and terraforming (no aliens in my story except the ones we create). What happens when humans seed a work with themselves and their own microbes, and then resume contact with other human seeded worlds years decades or even centuries down the line? Have the microbes on the different worlds gone their own evolutionary ways so-to-speak and could this start some nasty epidemics?
posted
Yup...if you want KDW to delete it then delete everything and leave just a '*' and she will delete the post.
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posted
One thing to consider about microbes is that even though they're potentially catastrophic, we already have the technology to for the most part eliminate the risk they pose. They might be alien and they might be deadly, but they're still by nature fairly simple.
The recurring illnesses that are truly dangerous come from either prions, or protein fragments that behave like living organisms, or viruses that swiftly mutate such as influenza. Even with the latter as long as we have samples we can quickly create a new vaccine.
So while they may pose a threat if people just jump down on the planet and start wandering around without hazmat/respirator suits (and I highly doubt an intelligent commander would allow anyone on the planet unprotected without first thoroughly investigating things like that), it's only an immediate problem, and one that their doctors and scientists will likely be trained to quickly overcome.
A sentient virus like Descolada, however, is another story. Its entire purpose would be to swiftly mutate to penetrate defenses, which would make it a recurring problem until some more permanent solution could be found.
[This message has been edited by Natej11 (edited July 20, 2009).]
posted
There are several assumtions that are in use with most science fiction. this is on the line of faster than light travel.
We will have found a way to make ourselves completely clean of microbes, or we find a way to replace the microbes in our bodies with ones that don't spread past our bodies.
There have been theories that life on this planet, or others, were caused by visits of aliens. the microbes pass to the planet spread and develop from there. I have even used that concept in many story ideas.
Our scientists work hard to prevent or reduce contamination of the other planets we explore, by our microbes. We had also tried hard to avoid bringing in contamination. Even with that, I remember reading at something that mentioned that it was not all that effective. I take that to mean that everywhere we go, so will our contamination. the only thing is to keep it to a minimum.
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I solved the microbe problem in a novel I wrote (as yet unpublished) by the existence of that old tried and true device the autodoc. It was one of those 'doctor in a coffin' affairs'.
It had a database of the known pathogens and innoculated the subject against most of them and issued a report of the ones it couldn't. Worked for microbes, insects, plants, foods, etc.
Funny, I didn't think to use it in the other direction. You can chalk that up to "The Ugly Terran" in me.
posted
The case of microbes is an interesting one. Such a simple life form is much more likely to evolve than any more complex species like a bird. And it definitely should be addressed.
The way I see it, in this world or in a created one, there are infinite possibilities. I personally think it would be unlikely to encounter some sort of strange disease so perfect for our species that it wipes us out without hesitation. However, I'm an ecologist, not an immunologist or molecular biologist, and the above statement is simply my opinion.
Also... science fiction is all about the unlikely, right? So it's also not at all implausable that such a disease could occur. Even more likely would be our body's negative reaction to some sort of heavy metal or chemical found naturally on a planet. In that way, the universe is made up of the same elemental building blocks, so (as far as I know).
quote:One thing to consider about microbes is that even though they're potentially catastrophic, we already have the technology to for the most part eliminate the risk they pose. They might be alien and they might be deadly, but they're still by nature fairly simple.
Microbes may be simple organisms, but this simplicity allows them to mutate quickly giving then an evolutionary edge.
Despite our technology, microbes still pose a great risk to us today. Antibiotic resistant bacteria is a very serious concern, and could cause a major outbreak that we cannot control.
Viruses are even harder for us to control. Yes we have a lot of vaccines that have significantly reduced the outbreak of many diseases, but so many viruses mutate too rapidly for a long term effective vaccination to be developed, HIV, cold, influenza. And antiviral medications do help a little in some cases but are not the magic bullet like antibiotics are to bacteria.
In 1918, the spanish flu killed 50 to 100 million people which was 3 to 6 percent of the total global population at that time. If such a virulent strain was to infect us today, the results would probably be the same. In nearly 100 years, we are in no better position to fight a deadly flu pandemic.
The simplicity of viruses makes them the hardest to fight. Right now our best defense against them is our own immune system (in which vaccines trigger). So in reality viruses kick our butt every time we try to fight them with technology.
Prions, which are even more simple, even our immune systems can't help. Everyone who gets infected with prions dies.
Anyway, my much rambling point is that even in a society sophisticated enough for space travel, alien microbes could very well devastate the population especially if they are nothing like what we have ever encountered before.
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Never mind viruses, think of any sort of natural radiation on a planet that could cause trouble. Cancer is still far from being treated.
I agree with you, MAP, that rapid evolution of viruses would be very problematic. The point I was trying to make is that we wouldn't necessarily land on a planet and instantly be struck dead by an existing virus. But then, infinite possibilities on infinite worlds, and we all know that cross-species virus transfers are all too common and far too quick.
And, of course, lack of resistance means that we have no defenses whatsoever. What I find especially fascinating are the heterozygote forms of genetic disorders that actually protect against certain virulent disorders that humans can catch (eg sickle cell anemia and malaria). One wonders what random or detrimental traits an alien virus might select for.
quote:The point I was trying to make is that we wouldn't necessarily land on a planet and instantly be struck dead by an existing virus.
I totally agree with this, see my first post on this topic.
quote:What I find especially fascinating are the heterozygote forms of genetic disorders that actually protect against certain virulent disorders that humans can catch (eg sickle cell anemia and malaria). One wonders what random or detrimental traits an alien virus might select for.
I find this idea fascinating as well. If you ever turn this into a story, let me know. I would love to read it.
posted
I would expect bacteria, viruses, and prions to be able to affect us quickly on other planets. Though these critters have had hundreds of millions of years to evolve on our planet, they remain the simplist of organisms. Because of this, I think they would not be too dissimilar from our own. There ability to evolve is their evolutionary advantage, and this makes them the most stout creatures on the planet. They have multitudes in types and strains and it would only take one of them to practically wipe us out.I suppose this is a good argument for "borrowing" some of an alien species DNA to fight off these little guys.
Of course, this also goes for whatever microbes we would take to another world or if another race of beings visited us.
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Very good points MAP. Guess I know what happens when I assume >.<.
Years ago I thought of a story in which reckless use of antibacterials has led to "superdiseases" which cannot be cured by conventional medication. That, combined with nuclear holocaust, has led to a world in which the few survivors are huddled underground, unable to go out into open air without suits as much for fear of catching an incurable disease as because of fear of radiation.
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What is more likely to damage us, microbes that are similar or dissimilar to those in our bodies?
Scientist Paul Davies speculates existing microbial life may have evolved on Earth differently than life as we know it. These microbes would be so different that we might not even notice them under a microscope.
If alien microbes shared nothing in common with us (for example, no DNA nor RNA), I think they would ignore us. The microbes we need to survive would replicate as usual, and we would go about our merry explorations. Therefore, there would be no need to mention them in our stories, unless we were "reporting" on alien life.
quote:I would expect bacteria, viruses, and prions to be able to affect us quickly on other planets. Though these critters have had hundreds of millions of years to evolve on our planet, they remain the simplist of organisms. Because of this, I think they would not be too dissimilar from our own. There ability to evolve is their evolutionary advantage, and this makes them the most stout creatures on the planet. They have multitudes in types and strains and it would only take one of them to practically wipe us out.
The vast majority of viruses and bacteria do not infect us at all. They have found their own nitches in the environment so they have no reason to invade us. So I think that in order for a rapid infection of an alien virus or bacteria there would need to be some organisms that were very similar to us in terms of physiology that the microorganism already inhabited. So that they would have to take fewer evolutionary steps to be able to infect us. But you are right, it would only take one of them.
Prions are a different case. Prions are just proteins, but the reason that they are infectious is that they adopt a highly stable bad form and have a high homology to one of our proteins. Once the prion comes in contact with the our good protein, it act as a seed to turn our good protein to the bad (harmful) form. So in order for prions to infect us they must have high homology to one of our own proteins. I can't see alien proteins having a high enough homology to any of our proteins to cause this.
quote:If alien microbes shared nothing in common with us (for example, no DNA nor RNA), I think they would ignore us. The microbes we need to survive would replicate as usual, and we would go about our merry explorations. Therefore, there would be no need to mention them in our stories, unless we were "reporting" on alien life.
If the alien microbes had nothing in common with us (different genetic information, different nutritional needs, different ideal temperatures, etc.) then I think you are right, they would just ignore us. But they would probably exist on a planet that was uninhabital to humans. But if they existed on a planet similar to earth in terms of temperature, atmosphere, water, composition, wouldn't at least some of the microbes have something in common with us?
A virus-like alien microbe that had some other genetic information than nucleic acids (DNA or RNA) would probably never infect us since it would not be able to highjack our cellular machinery to replicate itself.
But a bacteria-like microbe doesn't need to have similar cellular machinery to ours, it only needs to be able to thrive in an environment similar to the human body.
I would think that if a microbe that was dissimilar to us was able to invade us, it could be very devastating because our immune system may not be equipt to combat it.
[This message has been edited by MAP (edited July 23, 2009).]
[This message has been edited by MAP (edited July 23, 2009).]
posted
Sure, but then Montezuma will have his revenge. Also those little buggers that swim up your urethra are no fun.
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posted
Nearly? The entire world IS covered in bacteria. Even hot springs, glaciers, rocks buried beneath the crust. The only place you don't find them is anything hot enough to cook them (like a surgeon's sterilizing monoclave...) and as soon as it isn't hot, bacteria recolonize it.
But with millions of species of bacteria, there are only a few that are infectious to people. The water in South America will give you... uh... a less than pleasurable vacation, but if you lived there for a while, your immune system would adapt like the locals and you'd be ok. Its actually a good example of this discussion, because what isn't virulent for one group IS virulent for another group simply because they haven't encountered it. Luckily, we have an immune system that can adapt...
The real questions of how much microbes would impact a new world would be based on how similar their biology is to ours. For instance, all amino acids come in two forms, dubbed "right" and "left" handed. All life on earth uses one form. Another planet could have exactly the same biochemistry, and simply use the other form of amino acids and most species couldn't interact. They'd have trouble digesting food from the other planet, being infected by it and so on...
Bacteria are notorious in that they can adapt to practically anything, including doctors trying to wipe them out with all our scientific learning and most advanced antibiotics. I work in a hospital and I was astounded at how often antibiotics are used and how often resistant strains are found as the cause of infections.
It is the nature of life to evolve and adapt. This would include alien bugs adapting to new hosts, food sources, etc. The longer two species interact, the more opportunity there is to co-evolve.
One last thought: there is an evolutionary theory called aggressive symbiosis that could be a good source of microbe stories. It posits that since viruses usually have a host organism that they co-exist with, usually with no harm to the host, this is a clue to their evolution. When another organism gets to close to the host, by invading their habitat, preying on them, etc, the virus IS virulent to the invading organism, causing it illness and, hopefully, death. Sort of like an external immune system. The host organism gets a way of resisting threats, and the virus gets a host. Everybody benefits.
posted
Thank you, Teraen, you presented my case, as I intended it, much more effectively than I would have. Posts: 2003 | Registered: Jul 2008
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quote: Its actually a good example of this discussion, because what isn't virulent for one group IS virulent for another group simply because they haven't encountered it.
No offense, but I disagree. Virulence is not the issue. In order for a microbe to be pathogenic it has to be able to live in a human. Of course the microbes in the water in Mexico or South America can infect humans. These bacteria live in the locals only they don't cause symptoms because the locals are immune to them, but they are capable of living in the human body.
This is a lot different from humans encountering alien microbes for the first time. Microbes that can live in one human can certainly live in another, but can microbes that live in an alien life form live in a human? Not necessarily, and it would depend on how similar the alien life forms that the microbes inhabit are to humans.
The bacteria in dirt, hot water springs, or fish rarely are capable of living in humans. They have adapted to a completely different environment than the human body. Why would alien microbes that have specifically adapted to their environment be able to immediately infect us? Especailly if they have to compete with our own flora of bacteria that already has an evolutionary edge. I think it would take years, decades, or longer, depending on how similar the other life forms are to us.
Yes microbes evolve quickly compared to us, but not that fast, and especially not without environmental stress. If they did, we would be bombarded with new diseases all of the time since we frequently encounter bacteria that cannot live in us. Most of the microbes that can live in us coevolved with us, very rarely does a new pathogen emerge, and when it does, it usually comes from an animal with very similar physiology to us.
How long did humans work with pigs before swine flu made the jump to humans?
However, in writting, you certainly can tweak the world you create to do whatever you want with alien microbes.
quote:The real questions of how much microbes would impact a new world would be based on how similar their biology is to ours. For instance, all amino acids come in two forms, dubbed "right" and "left" handed. All life on earth uses one form. Another planet could have exactly the same biochemistry, and simply use the other form of amino acids and most species couldn't interact. They'd have trouble digesting food from the other planet, being infected by it and so on
This is a good point. I forgot about the chirality of life. I think most bacteria can turn some of the L (left) amino acids to the D (right) form because some D amino acids are used in bacteria cell walls. So they may already have a way to survive in a D amino acid world.
I never heard of aggressive symbiosis sounds interesting.
[This message has been edited by MAP (edited July 24, 2009).]
[This message has been edited by MAP (edited July 24, 2009).]
posted
MAP, I am feeling a little ignorant about the specificities of my argument, but does not the fact 'that foreign bacteria infects one more readily than familiar bacteria' lend greater support to my argument than it does your own?
It is my understanding that most bacteria can live in or on the human body - they certainly can if the person is dead. It is our white blood cells that are our main defense against unwanted bacteria.
Here is a site that explains how white blood cells work to fight off bacteria and viruses. I'm guessing you work in the medical field, but I needed this as a refresher to my limited knowledge. As I understand it, the main two ways that our WBC fight off bacteria are by digesting the invaders or by using an internal memory to send specific cells pre-equipped to bind to specific invaders and basically suffocate them.
If these invaders were alien, it would appear to me that first, the enzymes could very likely not be able to digest the invaders and second, not be pre-equipped to bind to them. If these are single- or limited-cell organisms that have developed naturally, I would think they would be as similar to our microbes as one planet is similar to another. I do not see how these could not invade our bodies through the air or water (if the planet is inhabitable by humans). My contention is that our bodies' defenses would not be naturally equipped to defend against them.
[This message has been edited by philocinemas (edited July 24, 2009).]
posted
Okay Philocinemas, I finally understand where the breakdown in communication is occuring. Thank you for clarifying.
Your understanding of the immune system is correct, and you are totally right that our immune system would not be equipt to handle an alien microbe infection. But I disagree that most bacteria can live in or on humans, actually very few can.
There are many different types of bacteria that have a variety of nutritional needs and thrive in very specific environments. Bacteria in general lives everywhere, but a specific type of bacteria lives in a specific type of environment (some are more flexible than others). Just like animals live everywhere, but fish can't live on land and monkeys can't live in antartica.
There are bacteria that thrive under extreme conditions like thermophiles that live at very high temperatures between 45 and 80 degrees Celcius and do not function well at 37 degree Celcius (human body temp) or acidophiles that live at pH 2 or below and would struggle to survive at pH 7.4 (physiological pH of humans).
The nutritional needs of bacteria vary widely. There are bacteria that need sunlight for energy and others that need inorganic compounds for energy neither of which could be found in the right quantities in or on the human body. Just because a type of bacteria does break down organic material for energy, doesn't necessarily mean it can live in or on the human body.
These are just a few dramatic examples, but there are more.
The point is that all bacteria have adapted to specific environments, and I am not sure how long it would take for a specific type of bacteria to adapt to a completely different environment. For example, if I injected myself with a thermophile every day, how long would it take for the thermophilic bacteria to be able to live in me, especially since it has to compete with the bacteria that I already have in me adapted perfectly to the environment of the human body? I could be wrong, but I think this would take more than my lifetime.
I think that if it was easy for a bacteria to change from one environment to another then we would be seeing new diseases caused by bacteria developing on a regular basis, but we don't. Most of the types of bacteria that cause diseases in us have been around for centuries. There is a plethora of bacteria out there that we come in contact with all the time but don't grow in us. This is not because of immunity. We don't have antibodies to them because they can't grow in us.
Now I can't even imagine what life would be like on an alien planet. This is why I can't write Scifi even though I love science. Alien life could be very similar to ours or it could be dramatically different. The microbes on the alien planet would have adapted specifically to the different enviroments on the alien planet including the other alien lifeforms; the alien microbes ability to live in us would depend on how similar one of these environments is to our human bodies.
So if the planet contains humanoids who are as far as physiology is concerned practically human, the alien microbes that infect them could infect us immediately. But if the physiology was different, higher or lower body temperature and/or higher or lower physiological pH, the alien microbes would have to undergo evolutionary changes before they could effectively live in us. I don't know how long this would take, but I at least think it would take years, maybe even decades or longer. But clearly, the more differences in physiology between the humans and the other alien lifeforms on the planet, the longer it would take the alien microbes to adapt to humans.
I do think eventually that the alien microbes will be able to infect us because they are good at adapting, but the question is how long will it take?
I hope this makes sense. It is pretty late, and I am very tired.
[This message has been edited by MAP (edited July 26, 2009).]
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You can chalk that up to "The Ugly Terran" in me.
