Merlion said:

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...I've always had the idea since before I started writing that writers generally start with short stories and then (for those who want to) move on to novels as well, and that most writers publish short stories well before and often as part of garnering a reputation to help getting a novel published.

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From the agent blogs that I stalk, I've read that to publish a novel one has to write a really great, marketable novel (easier said than done), and that short story publications might give you a slight edge on partial requests. But in the end, it is all about the novel.

I would think that writing a short story is considerably different than writing a novel; thus, my approach is to concentrate on novel writing with the hopes of getting really good at it.

Now I am not trying to start a debate on which is the better path to take in becoming a published novelist but more about which path makes you a better novelist.

Given the realities of today's market in science fiction and fantasy, I would also suggest that any aspiring writer begin with short stories. These days, I meet far too many young writers who try to start off with a novel right off, or a trilogy, or even a nine-book series. That's like starting in at rock climbing by tackling Mt. Everest. Short stories help you learn your craft. They are a good place for you to make the mistakes that every beginning writer is going to make. And they are still the best way for a young writer to break in, since the magazines are always hungry for short SF and fantasy stories. Once you've been selling short stories for five years or so, you'll have built up a name for yourself, and editors will start asking you about that first novel.

But, for some reason, most of my short stories either turn to mush or they turn into novellas. Some of them turn into novellas and then turn to mush. If I get one or two that may be publishable, I'll be happy. But I'll continue to work on it.

This was a difficult decision for me - I feel that it is a very compelling story. However, there was several reasons why I switched to short stories:

1. Visibility - I was always concerned about finishing the novel and not finding a publisher - I see this happening a lot. I do not like the idea of spending all of my time laboring on something that would never be published. I have heard over and over again by just about every prominent writer that short stories, especially in genre fiction, are the best way to become visible to publishers.

2. Time - I mentioned this above, but it is also deserves its own space. My time is very limited, and novels take more time. This goes hand in hand with the next reason.

3. Accomplishment - Writing short stories gives me a sense of accomplishment. This is the first time I have ever finished a story, except for some little skits I wrote while in college. It is very satisfying reading something I have written from beginning to end.

4. Experience - Short stories have given me a grasp of the entire process. Writing, editing, revising, editing, submitting (for me add more revising, editing, and submitting, but let's not get on that subject). Completing a story and knowing how to refine it is a very difficult task, and I believe experience makes one better at doing it.

5. Learning - *THE MOST IMPORTANT REASON* - I could go on forever on this subject, so I will try to be relatively brief. My goal in writing short stories is to become a better writer. I have gained a better awareness of POV and many other things, such as "show, don't tell", from writing short stories. I already had a fair knowledge of grammar, but short stories are also a good place to learn that discipline (a much needed one).
I have participated in every First 13 Challenge available, since I have been here, for this reason. Winning, although it was nice the one time I won, has not been my reason for doing this. I have tried to experiment with different ways of hooking readers. These challenges have made me think (hard), and I am better for it.
The one thing I have noticed is the difficulty of many writers to sustain a story throughout the process. I have seen some amazing first 13's and the story be almost incomprehensible. And I have seen some great stories where the ending was like an old soldier (they just fade away). Now, I am not saying I have arrived by any means - I'm not even published (YET). But there is an art to be learned by sustaining a story all the way through from beginning to end - short stories are a good place to learn that and many other things.

I realized that there was no way for me to figure out how to write properly working the time scale that novels required. So I turned to short stories to learn the craft. I can say that my writing has improved (although one can get some brutal responses to submissions )

A beginning writer needs to experiment with point of view and structure and develop a writing style. Shorts do that. When I began last February, I couldn't carry on a conversation about any of those things. Now I can.

There is a lot left to learn, but I would always recommend writing short stories first. Without a lot of good feedback, I don't know how someone can write a super first novel without being grounded in what makes a good story and how to present it.

Having said that, I will admit I enjoy writing novel length better than short story length. I've written a novel (first draft) since I started and will participate in NaNoWriMo to start another. But as I write, I go over in my mind technique and story structure that I never knew existed.

But I've also learned short stories and novels are different beasts, and each form has it's own specific elements that come with them and there's only so much you can draw from the other form (in both directions).

I have a finished novel that I thought was pretty good and I now realize it is more of a first draft. But I started to learn the things that told me that by writing short stories and getting feedback on them.

In one critique I received I was told that the pacing used might have been fine for a novel but I didn't have time for it in a short story. It was brilliant advice that made me tighten up my short story writing.

Sometimes in a novel I think it is necessary to be aware of short story techniques. They can help pick up the pace when you need it.

But what I WANT to write now is a novel. I have no passion for short stories (even the ones I have started are more like springboards to novels...) So I put my effort in what I feel I can stay motivated about. But I also know I'll have to delve into short stories soon. I'll have to do this for two reasons:

1) The practical aspects of past success publishing when approaching agents and editors, and short stories are easier to publish. This is the "I have to write short stories" aspect.

2) to learn the craft. As has been stated, short stories are harder (at least for me.) So forcing myself to write them will help me flex my literary muscles, so to speak. This is the "I want to write short stories" aspect.

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Something I have noticed lacking in these responses is PASSION. I write because I feel driven to. Though it would be great to make it a profession, I'm not close at all to that. Instead, I write because it is what I want to do. I get passionate about a story and then feel this incessant itching in my brain until I get writing. (I am a very new writer, one "practice" novel to my name ("practice" because it is long enough, but not very good...)) Because I am new, I know that writing short stories is the easiest way to break into the field.

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Oh, I think most of us feel passionate about writing. We couldn't keep it up if we didn't. I've had stories grab me by the scruff of the neck and refuse to let me go until they were written. My last novel, BLOOD WILL TELL was one. That's why the first draft got written so quickly. I literally couldn't do anything else. The original novella-length version of my current WIP, DREAMER'S ROSE, was another. And, though I've got some distance from it now, I still feel passionate about THE SHAMAN'S CURSE.

I guess that may be the difference for me. Shorter stories don't seem to generate that same passion. I like being immersed in a story in a way that rarely happens with a short story. Maybe that's why I find them so much more difficult to write or write well.

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Do you guys who write short stories, hoping one day to publish a novel, feel that writing short stories has benefited you more than writing "practice" novels? If so, what lessons on writing can be learned from writing short stories that would be harder to learn from writing novels?

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Regarding PASSION: I believe one must have passion to write a good story. Here is the trick - creating passion. I spend quite a bit of time just thinking about a story (no pen, laptop, or paper). Sometimes I write little thoughts down to remember ideas, but for the most part I work the story out in my mind. I wait for a "eureka moment" (the climax and ending) before I move beyond the first 13 lines. I also like to have a title before I actually start writing. Then I just write the story from beginning to end. This is what gives me passion - it is like designing an amusement park ride. Reading critiques is like hearing feedback right after someone gets off the ride. Sometimes it makes you feel good, sometimes not (and you want to make little improvements). Writing a novel that no one will ever read, except my mother, has not given me that thrill, though I hope to make it the best ride I can some time in the future.

I am like Teraen in that I have no passion to write short stories. I started writing because I had a novel length story in me that just won't let go. I have been writing that story for over a year and learned a ton in the process.

I haven't read very many short stories only ones that were required reading in high school and college, but I have read countless novels.

I think that in reading all those novels that I have subconciously picked up on how a novel should be constructed. I certainly can feel when something isn't working, when a scene is too slow or anticlimatic. I know there are probably a million mistakes that I am making that I am not even aware of, but I do think that my reading and studying novels as helped me tremendously.

I think that the structure of a short story would differ considerably from a novel. I do realize there would be lots of overlap in learning the writing craft: POV, voice, realistic dialog, editing, etc. But a short story isn't a miniture novel, right? It would have different pacing, structure, and characterization. Am I wrong?

I think that if I were to start writing short stories (which you guys are making me consider), I would have to read and study a lot of short stories. It would be more work than simply starting to write short stories.

And even after, hopefully, I got good at writing short stories, there still would be more to learn when I went back to writing novels because short stories and novels are different. So is writing short stories really a faster path to learning to write fantastic novels?

I think the best arguments for writing short stories are #4 and #6 on Philocinemas list.

I have been writing for over a year without any feedback. It would be nice to have something polished enough for someone to critique, so I can be aware of the million of mistakes I know I am making but am too close to see.

how to say something in a few words that used to take pages

which parts of my writing actually drive the story and which parts are the 'ramblings of an idiot' (pardon the plagarism).

how to not force feed the reader too much information

and lots more, but my kids won't let me think.

Forcing a story, as I've discovered, into a pre-determined length, is not a good way to let the story tell itself. I've had what I thought was going to be a short story ultimately end up expanding into a novel. I even came up with a story idea once which I was convinced would have multiple lengthy volumes, only to determine that it told itself much better in the form of a poem. Once I opened myself up to this sort of dynamic, I began saving an unbelievable amount of time by ceasing my hatchet editing and my filler writing escapades. Oh...and, the frustration level decreased dramatically, too.

Now, as it just so happens, all of the stories I'm currently working on, and all those I plan to work on next, are novel length. Anybody can read into this any subconscious translation they wish; the only fact that matters in the least is that I'm having a great time working on the stories I'm currently working on.

For me, unfortunately, all the creation of short story impetus has come from outside sources. A desire to get published so that a query letter for a novel has more punch, getting a position at the literary boot camp, etc...

For me, the hardest part is deciding what to say. Its hard to tell a whole story in less space than I am used to, and all my ideas are too big to fit. I lack that plotting aspect of short story storytelling. At risk of hijacking the thread, what is it that helps inspire a good short story?

I am pretty sure I could write one that wasn't too horrible if I had some outline of a plot.

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Now, as it just so happens, all of the stories I'm currently working on, and all those I plan to work on next, are novel length. Anybody can read into this any subconscious translation they wish; the only fact that matters in the least is that I'm having a great time working on the stories I'm currently working on.

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Absolutely! I just flashed on what dog agility competitors always ask, even when you come away with no ribbons. "But did you have fun?" That is the most important thing. And probably the only way to sustain the kind of passion required to keep writing despite the rejection slips.

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For me, the hardest part is deciding what to say. Its hard to tell a whole story in less space than I am used to, and all my ideas are too big to fit. I lack that plotting aspect of short story storytelling. At risk of hijacking the thread, what is it that helps inspire a good short story?

I am pretty sure I could write one that wasn't too horrible if I had some outline of a plot.

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Especially when I'm just trying out a short story for practice, not expecting it to go anywhere necessarily (although that would always be nice), I sometimes try deconstructing a fairy tale. Take out the elements that make it clearly that fairy tale. Add some color and spice to the characters. And just see what I can do with it. It's an exercise. But sometimes it can lead somewhere interesting.

I write flash fiction, short stories, novellettes, novellas and novels. Passion is the motovation, it should never replace learning the skills, but give you a stronger reason to learn them. Passion isn't the tools, and doesn't instruct you where to use them; it's the love of craft that makes you pay attention to the tedious details and concede the areas you need to develope. It's the pride when you finally do publish and feel vindication for all the work that got you there.

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Do you guys who write short stories, hoping one day to publish a novel, feel that writing short stories has benefited you more than writing "practice" novels? If so, what lessons on writing can be learned from writing short stories that would be harder to learn from writing novels?

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In all truth, most people don't have the dedication it takes to finish a novel. If they do finish it, it takes them years. It takes a lot of drive to finish a novel in less than a year, or the first draft in two months or less.

I think you can liken the difference between a painter and a ceramicist. A painter can work lovingly on a painting for months on end and never call it completely finished as they always feel that they can fine tune this or that. The potter makes a lot of pieces, some perfect, some not. These many pieces have the potential to explode in the kiln (especially when you're sharing space with others), develop unforseen cracks or develop an odd shape that you thought you had corrected. And that's all just in the first firing. There's a whole different batch of dangers in the glaze firing. And then, when a piece has survived it all and is beautiful and perfect, it can be dropped and break into a dozen pieces.

My point is, both artists have a different attitude about their work, speed, production and perfection levels. And the nice thing about short stories is that if it doesn't come out right you don't have to throw it in the trash, you can re-work it.

For the people that feel like their ideas are all novel length, try shrinking the scope of your idea to one small point. Start with, 'what if?' until you find something tha grabs you and then build out from there. See how that idea affect a single person and write their story. Look at it from a few different angles and see whose perspective is the most interesting.

A new bit of technology might be good for one group, bad for another and then really bad for someone else. Don't try to tell all of their stories, pick one to follow and do it from the critical point where things start to happen.

So those are my ramblings. Hope they help.