posted
I am new to the Hat Rack. I am currently writing a book and have been writing for a lengthy amount of time. This is the first chapter, The Battle for Evermore.
I would like to know how this moves, feels, and experiences in your heads.
**The sentences between the dashes are sub thoughts, they are suppose to be italic, smaller font, and very quick. The available font and writing tools available on this site are slim to none, so I am not able to use its full function.
A human? They have got to be kidding. How could I be lowered to such a level? And to think, all of my eternity I have avoided them only now to be summoned by the Eternals and go to a planet called Earth, somewhere in the lower forgotten realms-
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The lower forgotten realms are basically the dirt and waste of the universe. It is there you will find all sorts of ugly, useless and ancient things like Earthlings. Yuck. ________________
-to find a boy. A boy! Why don’t you just wrap me up with a bow on my head and hand me to the fire demons? That would most likely be less painful. I bet he is like most humans; proud and arrogant, stupid as the rock it stands on, and of course my favorite, thirsty for power and possession. That is why they
[This message has been edited by Dal' (edited September 16, 2007).]
[This message has been edited by Dal' (edited September 16, 2007).]
[This message has been edited by Dal' (edited September 16, 2007).]
[This message has been edited by Dal' (edited September 16, 2007).]
[This message has been edited by Dal' (edited September 16, 2007).]
[This message has been edited by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (edited September 16, 2007).]
posted
Dal, I have no idea how to gauge this, but it is way over thirteen lines, even without counting the long lines that just function to separate pieces of text. I am actually willing to take small, tasteful wagers on how and what KDW cuts this down to.
However, looking at what's there right now, I would say that you have a rockin' voice for your MC, very breezy and enjoyable, although he uses a lot of earth-type, 21st century expressions for a guy/gal that dislikes humans so much: barf, for example. There is also a point were he speaks so directly to the reader that it's a little jarring (I know this because I have been thumped on the nose for it myself, with one of Rick Norwood's rolled up comic books, I believe). Anyway, it moves very well, to answer your original question, but there are a few clunky spots (plus my amazement that it just keeps going on and on) that tripped me up. Good luck with She Who Must Be Obeyed!
posted
If your question is simply how it moves, then my answer is that it moves swiftly, which is obviously what you're looking for with the inserted "sub-thoughts." Fortunately, those sub-thoughts aren't too distracting... yet. But could be if your entire book is filled with them. I suppose I'd have to see how well you handle other chapters, if you've chosen to write them in the first person, or if you pull back and tell the story now. If this is the only chapter written like this, it would almost make a better prologue. But I'm getting carried away in supposition here.
The MC's voice is smooth and easy, although I agree that some of the slang in it (barf, yuck) may be a bit much for a being that loathes humans.
If you edit this down to 13 lines, you'll likely get more comments.
posted
I'm viewing the post after being trimmed by SWMBO. I'll call this, the post-apocalyptic event. (He he.)
To me, the narrator does not sound very eternal," which is to say, dignified. Perhaps this is a third-string eternal, which explains why he/she/it is given this low duty and sounds bratty. If this is the case, I would make it clear very early in the story; else you may chase away some readers.
I suppose the human child he will seek is special and may change his view of Earthings, but an endless string of Earth-bashing will get old.
The use of special fonts for the "sub-thoughts," I think, will plague you with editors. It seems to me this is simply back story and will be seen by editors as a typographic cover for telling instead of showing. (They may rebel against the use of multiple fonts themselves, as well.)
I agree with the others about the language. A minor point: the sentence beginning with "I bet..." refers to humans as "he" and "it" in the same sentence.
posted
I found the "loewr forgotten realms are basically..." sentence to be a bit of an info-dump. It took me out of the voice of the POV. He's talking to ME, the reader now, and (personal preference) I don't much care for that kind of "direct to camera" kind of thing in my speculative fiction.
I think we easily get the feel for how MC views his assignment via the wording choices. Also, you can insert those points about the lower forgotten realms without it being such a direct talk-to-camera thing. For example. "No self-respecting seraphim would be caught DEAD in the lower forgotten realms, that wasteland at the edge of the universe. Only ugly, useless, ancient Earthlings can be found there. What a waste of space!"
See what I mean?
Meanwhile - welcome to Hatrack! It's not Hat Rack, by the way. Hatrack (I personally pronounce it as Ha-track but I'm not 100% sure I've got it right. LOL)
Be sure you have introduced yourself on the Intro discussion, and be sure if you're expecting to receive critiques on your work that you spend some time offering your input to others who have posted in this area or over on the Short Storys Fragments and Feedback.
Also there are some really handy notes posted in the "Please Read Here First" - including one that explains the purpose and limitation of the first 13 lines, which She-Who-Must-Be-Obeyed enforces with an iron fist to protect ALL of our rights as authors.
posted
I agree with KayTi. It works much better without the info dump. To be honest, it confuses me. He is thinking (or speaking) and is interrupted by further thinking?
Minor point, but the "it" in "it stands on" should be changed to he. Better still, keep it "it" and replace the pronoun "he" with 'it' - thereby denoting that the boy is thought of as just a 'thing', not a person or living being worth note. Now, I notice, that this was brought up before. Sorry for the repeat.
[This message has been edited by palmon (edited September 17, 2007).]
[This message has been edited by palmon (edited September 17, 2007).]
quote: A [What human?]human? They[Who? have got to be kidding. How could I be lowered to such a level[From what? To what?]? And to think, all of my eternity I have avoided them only now to be summoned by the Eternals[Who?] and go to a planet called Earth, somewhere in the lower forgotten realms-[This sounds very 'As you know, bob'-ish to me. Info-dump in undisclosed PoV.]
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The lower forgotten realms are basically the dirt and waste of the universe. It is there you will find all sorts of ugly, useless and ancient things like Earthlings. Yuck.[Who is talking? WHo are they talking to? A bit jarring, if the narrator is talking to me.] ________________
-to find a boy[Eh? It was a long sentence before the jarring paragraph, I'm disconnected by the time I get to this point.]. A boy! Why don’t you just wrap me up with a bow on my head and hand me to the fire demons[Eh? Fire Demons? There ar Fire Demons? And how does that realte to the undisclosed entities searching for a boy?]? That would most likely be less painful[Than what?]. I bet he is like most humans[;<--I think you want a colon( : ) here.] proud and arrogant, stupid as the rock it[What are we talking about here? Humans were plural; it is singular.] stands on, and of course my favorite[Favorite what?], thirsty for power and possession. That is why they
You are unclear on whose PoV this is from.
This talks to me directly and rips me out of any achieved immersion, not only early-on, but in the middle of a lengthy sentence.
Out of the four entities mentioned, you have only named two (the Eternals and humans), but you left out the most important: the protagonist. I'd also like to know whom it is he has tried to avoid.
Who/what is he? Why does he live eternally?
This voice sounds entirely human. This is an eternal being, speaking derisive -- at least, I assume the tone to be derisive -- about a proud and arrogant race (with greedy tendencies). And for all those negative qualities, their considered stupid. This sounds like the pot calling the kettle black. Pride, arrogance, greed, and power-hunger are symptoms of intelligence. You'll notice neither of these are traits that apparent in any species of lesser intelligence.
[This message has been edited by InarticulateBabbler (edited September 18, 2007).]
posted
I think the aside about the lower regions didn't work--it stopped the motion for me, and if there were pages on pages of this, I'd find it pretty exhausting and annoying to read. The voice of your demon, if that is what it is, comes through loud and clear. While I appreciate it and enjoy reading it, I wonder how a whole book written in this manner would feel. Again, I think it would be exhausting, because it feels rather circular and I would constantly have to scramble to put together what he's saying.
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posted
1st) The subthoughts only arrive through the first two chapters (which are no more than 2-3 pages each.
2nd) If you are asking questions about what, who, why, where , how, then good. read the next chapter and find out
3rd) The novle is called The Battle for Evermore. It contains this character, a boy who becomes a main character throughout. I will look at the things mentioned and ponder upon them. Here is the rest of the first chapter.
[This message has been edited by Dal' (edited September 17, 2007).]
[This message has been edited by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (edited September 17, 2007).]
posted
2nd) If you are asking questions about what, who, why, where , how, then good. read the next chapter and find out.
That answer is fine for a reader who has already paid $18.95 for the book. But that is not the point of this forum.
The point of this forum is to get the beginning of your story in a form so that an editor or agent will bother reading even the second page of it, never mind, another chapter.
There is a lot of lore behind this idea, including the belief that editors and agents make their decisions about a story substantially on the first page. (Or worse, don't read one word of it if the query is poor.) What good is the second chapter if the editor tosses the manuscript into the slush discard pile before the second page is read? If you don't buy that or don't care about traditional publishing . . . never mind.
BTW, the reason that Kathleen deletes the text beyond the first 13 lines is to protect your publication rights.
[This message has been edited by WouldBe (edited September 17, 2007).]
quote:2nd) If you are asking questions about what, who, why, where , how, then good. read the next chapter and find out.
I second WouldBe's response. Here's the problem--if you make me wonder what's going on, or who's speaking, or where or what, I'm more likely to get frustrated and give up than continue reading. It's always a balancing act of what information you decide is necessary to make clear what's happening, and what you can dole out later, since you can't cram everything into the It's fine to have some of the elements vague, to develop them later the first 13. I think you do have to give the reader enough of a foundation to feel comfortable reading on.
quote: 1st) The subthoughts only arrive through the first two chapters (which are no more than 2-3 pages each.
2nd) If you are asking questions about what, who, why, where , how, then good. read the next chapter and find out
3rd) The novle is called The Battle for Evermore. It contains this character, a boy who becomes a main character throughout. I will look at the things mentioned and ponder upon them. Here is the rest of the first chapter.
If these "subthoughts" disrupt the story for the reader, they're going to drop it before they get past "first two chapters". The first few pages are your "contract" with the reader. The promise of cluttered, disjointed prose only throws me off. There are some that this won't matter to, but, why eliminate more readers than you have to?
If I'm asking the questions: "Who am I reading about?", "What is happening here?", and "Why do I care?" those are bad questions. They are not only detrimental to getting published, but detrimental to you getting -- and keeping -- faithful readers. Every decision you make has a cost, how much are you willing to pay?
Does the boy (who is still the protagonist) have a name? If not, I'm not interested in following him; if so, it's a starting place. Yes, you can cite the masters (or your literary heroes) as beginning something without a name, but, they knew and mastered the rules before they broke them.
These themes are pretty-much a constant here. Though many members come and go, we are all concerned with mastering the basics, and helping as many others along as we can. Nobody is suggesting that you conform your prose, just that you don't cheat us on the exposition. Johnny knows what his name is, it's no secret, and whether he thinks of himself as John, Jack, Johnny, J.J., or Jackie-Boy is relevant to his PoV and the immersion of the reader. If Jackie-Boy is an Alexlialan Hitman or and Angel it makes a serious difference in the way your reader's picture him. If that summer started with 12 cycles-old Jackie-Boy being dumped in an intergalactic spacecamp with his best friend Erigivy, his dream girl Livionicka, and the big four-armed bully Chestergill, we'll have a clue it's a coming-of-age space opera. Then, I'm hooked...
[This message has been edited by InarticulateBabbler (edited September 18, 2007).]
posted
Dal - you may not like the feedback you receive here, but it is meant to help you find places where the prose trips up readers. The writers here on this writers workshop vary from the newbie to the experienced artisan. Their feedback is worth listening to, otherwise why bother?
It may help to read the threads in the "Please Start Here" portion of this bulletin board as I mentioned previously. For ease of use, I'll put links to a few of them here.
I trust that someone will post a link to the (in)famous thread called "Just Tell me" that explains the reasons for the questions that posters had for you.
If you are looking for feedback on more than the first 13 lines, you should specify that in your thread and ask for readers. For novel-length work, typically what people are able/willing to do is read a chapter or two. This is done by emailing the portion your work to a person who has agreed to read it.
Also - it is expected that if you are asking for help on your work, you are willing also to spend some of your time offering critiques or input on others' work. Critiquing others has taught me more about writing than anything else. Your mileage may vary, but you should be aware that it is an expectation.
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