(Frowned would be tempting, but if we're inside her point of view, we can't see her frown.)
Shook her head?
Also, "unhappy" and "lamented" in the same sentence is rather redundant. You probably don't need "unhappy."
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posted
Using "was" and "were" in sentences does not mean you are using passive voice.
Passive voice is the term for sentences where the object of the sentence acts like the subject (as in "the man was bitten by the dog" - the dog is the true (active) subject of the sentence (the one who acts - in this case does the biting) and the man is the object), or when the subject of the sentence is left out (as in "mistakes were made" - the person or people who made the mistakes is/are the true (active) subject of the sentence).
Sentences with "was" and "were" are static (using "state of being" verbs), not necessarily passive.
I hope this helps, drew.
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Thank you Kathleen. I'll get a grip on these terms. The highly technical critiques eXtrinsic offers are quite intimidating to me, and I think diving in that deep at this point is more confusing to me than it is intended.
My education was incomplete due to the fact that different schools taught grammar at different times, and I moved from foster home to foster home so often that I would miss out on many key topics, especially in English and Math.
For a long time, I couldn't tell you what an adjective or adverb was, or how to properly apply rules of grammar to form proper sentences in any complex way. Much of what I "know" has been learned through context and self study, which is a poor substitute for proper education. It has been a point of persoal shame, because I am not unintelligent by most standards.
This book, English Grammar for Dummies, is a real boon for me. I believe when I get my understanding up to par, much of this confusion and frustration will melt away, and I can work more effectively towards completing this work.
Please forgive my ignorance. I promise it is living on borrowed time. Posts: 76 | Registered: Apr 2019
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quote:Originally posted by drew: --- I just put a hold on both of our host's books on writing. I'm hoping Characters and Viewpoints will lead to more eureka moments.
You're in for delightful treats and powerful and accessible craft method descriptions.
Commiserations for the burdensome expenses of useful reference and craft texts. For economic reasons, I borrowed craft books from local libraries, too, to sample if those had any helpful substance. If a local library did not have a copy, then borrowed through interlibrary loan. Several renewals for most of the regular circulation and interlibrary loans. Many of the books I wanted personal copies of ready to hand went on the to-buy list. If the budget could stand purchases, I bought.
Alas, the libraries hereabouts, anymore, don't do interlibrary loans for my circumstances. The public library eliminated the program. The alumni association ended university library affiliations. Yak-holes.
Now the library of extrinsic stocks many linear bookshelf feet of reference books, craft texts, companion novels, short story collections, and creative nonfiction essays, plus, archived online sources -- and sturdy self-made bookcases to hold the lot, on a budget. A lifetime accumulation, I built a story craft library piece-by-piece.
I've moved many times, felt like an orphan adrift then and now, and attended many diverse schools, too, though blessed, cursed by the more or less standardized curricula of private schools -- need-based scholarships -- preschool through seventh grade. All public schools thereafter through postgraduate study, far later than traditional college age, dusty-old-bones late in life, and also a lifetime accumulation of extant knowledge.
Anyway, drew, your grammar, composition, and story craft skills are above the average pall and are suitable to the vocation's demands. Not that long ago, my, etc., skills were at par with yours.
posted
Oh my Goddess, stop the world, I wanna get off.
extrinsic just complimented somebody's grammar.
This is clearly a sign of impending apocalypse.
You should be honored, drew, for however long you have left before our universe is devoured by tentacled horrors from beyond time and space.
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posted
As to the current version, I agree that the first line is a teensy bit wonky, not sure why though-something about "night shift ticket girl," maybe.
I like the sentence about the couple making out particularly.
I think the "though" needs a comma after it as well, or could use one anyway. I could be wrong though.
The second part seems to shift from past tense to present.
And I think it's "guaranteeing."
Overall, I like it though. Nice and moody.
I'd like to add that, personally, I like setting the scene, and for me being in the character's "headspace" is not a total necessity. For me it's a wash between "in the head" and "setting the scene"-either are good, just depends on the story. Here, I feel you've combined them nicely.
I'd also add that, again for me and in my experience, it is very possible to capture visuals and ambiance in literature via description. I have entire authors who a large part of my love for their work is based on their visuals.
People (or at least me and the people I know) don't necessarily read stories solely to be carried along the plot by only relevant details, or to make the MC into their "avatar"-they also read them to feel, to experience moods and atmosphere, to be transported to another place and/or time or perhaps be reminded of one where they've already been.
I'm not saying don't learn the things presented here-a storyteller can never have too many tools-just don't get caught up in the idea that some styles/modes/methods/foci of writing/stories are "better" than others. They all have their place and can often be freely combined for better effect (something you seem to show signs of being good at.)
Posts: 226 | Registered: Oct 2018
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posted
It's good to be able to see the text now, especially with the benefit of several rewrites.
First, I think it must be "lamented" not "lamented at". Then, that sentence needs commas: "The unhappy night shift ticket girl lamented the nearly empty cinema, while the audience, in plush chairs, enjoyed her favorite classic film. I don't think "before her" adds anything. "Well, most of them did." makes a nice relief after that long first sentence.
But I am left wondering a little "Why do I care whether she was unhappy that the cinema was nearly empty"? It doesn't catch the reader and make them say, "Hey, what is this? I want to know more."
It is almost always better to begin with an action: something happens. That something should make the reader curious to know more.
You are doing an almost systolic-diastolic rhythm of long, then short sentences. That is not bad and I have seen it recommended before for pacing. Yet some of the long sentences are too long and the modern reader will get bored. No one wants a blood pressure of 500 over 50.
The 3rd sentence, for example, is sort of cute but the reader can get lost in all that verbiage. Try "She had just slipped in to watch the movie but now noticed a teenaged couple at the back, acting out their own movie."
I think the sentence about Kieth adds nothing and beats the cute little aside to death.
I guess the Oxford comma in the next sentence is American usage. I don't want to start a 100 hour debate on the issue, which has never been finally resolved.
The final sentence: I thought you were leaving why she was displeased at his presence open, so as to attract the reader to find out why. But are you telling why in the last sentence, because he is a drunkard? If so, the rest of that horridly long sentence is unnecessary, description and all.
But I would say don't tell now why she is displeased. Stop with "the cause of her displeasure", let it sit a while and go on to tell us what happens in the cinema. These 13 lines go on a bit long and the reader might be saying by now "Nothing's happening here."
posted
"though" punctuation depends on if a conjunction or a conjunctive adverb use.
English usage examples from Merriam-Webster's 11th Collegiate Dictionary:
Conjunction "while" 1 : <though they know the war is lost, they continue to fight Bruce Bliven> "even if" 2 : <though I may fail, I will try>
Adverb "however" or "nevertheless" <It's hard work. I enjoy it[,] though>
A Webster's error, skips the above comma. The listed uses are for conjunctive adverbs, not broad-definition adverbs, and take comma separation, or other apt punctuation, dash maybe.
From the latest fragment: "If they start distracting the other patrons, though[,] she would tell Kieth"
A conjunctive adverb "though" or "nevertheless" use, mid sentence, takes bookend commas.
Though many are the writers who leave out wanted punctuation to decrease bumpy syntax, as many realize apt punctuation's appeal strengths and realize bumpy syntax prompts revisions.
Connective tissue words, for prose, like "though," "nevertheless," "however," etc., want reconsideration or omission altogether. Conjunctions, conjunctive adverbs, particles, and prepositions want close consideration. Those are necessary idea connectors for impersonal and formal composition genres. For prose, those telegraph or force unnatural connections or are too sophisticated a diction for prose's personal, casual mannerisms, in general.
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quote:Originally posted by Princesisto: I guess the Oxford comma in the next sentence is American usage. I don't want to start a 100 hour debate on the issue, which has never been finally resolved.
Actually, the consideration is about as resolved as the debate will ever likely be.
Oxford -- or Harvard -- the magnificent serial-list comma, is if used other than for journalism and its offspring or informal correspondence, for U.S. dialects. British, Commonwealth, and international English dialects are likewise. Consistent usages, though, vary as wild as the cosmos is broad.
Oxford or Harvard or serial-list styles: A, B, and [or, but, any conjunction] C. Journalism, etc.: A, B and C.
A comma that precedes a conjunction is the infamous Harvard, Oxford, or plain ole serial-list comma.
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posted
Realistically, connective words also get used heavily in people's everyday thought and speech and so, to me, stripping them away too far can make a piece sound...odd. Overly formal or technical, like "robot speak." Especially dialogue or narration that's absorbed parts of a character's voice.
Depends on the setting and the character also though. A scientist or a by-the-book military guy might be more likely to talk/think/narrate that way than an average civilian lay young person.
quote:Originally posted by extrinsic: Commiserations for the burdensome expenses of useful reference and craft texts.
Thank you. The library is an excellent resource, especially with our inter-library loan program (my condolences), and the staff are more than happy to assist fledgling writers. There are also many resources online, such as this forum, though some are far more valuable than others. I personally find YouTube to be a fine source for educational material as well as entertainment, for those willing to deal with the dross.
quote:Originally posted by extrinsic: Anyway, drew, your grammar, composition, and story craft skills are above the average pall and are suitable to the vocation's demands. Not that long ago, my, etc., skills were at par with yours.
0_0 That's very encouraging. Thank you for the kind support, and the challenges. Posts: 76 | Registered: Apr 2019
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quote:Originally posted by MerlionEmrys: You should be honored, drew, for however long you have left before our universe is devoured by tentacled horrors from beyond time and space.
I do! Let us make the most of the precious little time we have left. Posts: 76 | Registered: Apr 2019
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quote:Originally posted by MerlionEmrys: As to the current version, I agree that the first line is a teensy bit wonky, not sure why though-something about "night shift ticket girl," maybe.
Yes, now that you point it out, that is very wonky. When I drop 'night shift' from the first sentence, it reads much better. If she's working, we can assume there are shifts, and the time of day isn't important right away.
quote:The ticket girl lamented...
I guess I as trying to cram in as much information into that first line as I could. I realize we don't need to know what time of day it is until it's time for departure. We're in a dark cinema, after all.
quote:Originally posted by MerlionEmrys: I think the "though" needs a comma after it as well, or could use one anyway. I could be wrong though.
You are not wrong. Comma added.
quote:The second part seems to shift from past tense to present.
Ah, you're right. Past tense it shall be. Unless placing the events in the now is more engaging? I'm unsure.
quote:Originally posted by MerlionEmrys: And I think it's "guaranteeing."
Cool. I think I had gone with that at first. Maybe my tense safu caused me some confusion there. Thanks.
quote:Originally posted by MerlionEmrys: Overall, I like it though. Nice and moody.
I'd like to add that, personally, I like setting the scene, and for me being in the character's "headspace" is not a total necessity. For me it's a wash between "in the head" and "setting the scene"-either are good, just depends on the story. Here, I feel you've combined them nicely.
Giddy joy. Someone likes it! It took much thought and reworking to get to this point, and I have this community to thank for tempering the writing. Your feedback really means a lot to me.
quote:Originally posted by MerlionEmrys: I'd also add that, again for me and in my experience, it is very possible to capture visuals and ambiance in literature via description. I have entire authors who a large part of my love for their work is based on their visuals.
People (or at least me and the people I know) don't necessarily read stories solely to be carried along the plot by only relevant details, or to make the MC into their "avatar"-they also read them to feel, to experience moods and atmosphere, to be transported to another place and/or time or perhaps be reminded of one where they've already been.
I understand there are a myriad of tastes and desires, and no matter how hard I work to improve myself, there will always be judgement. Picking the style critiques that resonate with me seems the best approach. Of course, I have to understand the landscape before I can claim good taste.
quote:Originally posted by MerlionEmrys: I'm not saying don't learn the things presented here-a storyteller can never have too many tools-just don't get caught up in the idea that some styles/modes/methods/foci of writing/stories are "better" than others. They all have their place and can often be freely combined for better effect (something you seem to show signs of being good at.)
Thanks. I get the impression that I've a decent shot at publication, if I'm willing to put in the effort to hone my craft, and am determined and willing to finish what I've begun. I will, and I am. That's in no small part due to quality feedback and guidance. I shudder to think how I would have fared in one of those other communities that were recommended to me. Posts: 76 | Registered: Apr 2019
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quote:Originally posted by Princesisto: It's good to be able to see the text now, especially with the benefit of several rewrites.
Bullet dodger.
quote:Originally posted by Princesisto: First, I think it must be "lamented" not "lamented at". Then, that sentence needs commas: "The unhappy night shift ticket girl lamented the nearly empty cinema, while the audience, in plush chairs, enjoyed her favorite classic film. I don't think "before her" adds anything. "Well, most of them did." makes a nice relief after that long first sentence.
Lamented it shall be. When I replace it with 'mourned', it makes no sense to me with the ''at: "mourned at". Ick. Good eye.
The "before her" was recommended to establish her place in the scene as it relates to the audience. Actually, the recommendation was "around her", but she's standing at the far back, not sitting in the seats. If I omit that detail, the reader might think she's out in the lobby, where ticket girls should be. Perhaps I can work it in some other way.
quote:Originally posted by Princesisto: But I am left wondering a little "Why do I care whether she was unhappy that the cinema was nearly empty"? It doesn't catch the reader and make them say, "Hey, what is this? I want to know more."
It doesn't really add anything if we also see her lamenting. Removing makes the line read much better. Even more so with the edits applied from above. I left the "before her" in for now.
quote:The ticket girl lamented the nearly empty cinema, while the audience, in plush chairs before her, enjoyed her favorite classic film.
quote:Originally posted by Princesisto: It is almost always better to begin with an action: something happens. That something should make the reader curious to know more.
I could start with the moment her boyfriend sneaks in behind her and startles her by saying "Bob's got a date.". That's the first bit of action in the scene, and it's not far off from these 13 lines now. The very next paragraph, in fact.
quote:Originally posted by Princesisto: You are doing an almost systolic-diastolic rhythm of long, then short sentences. That is not bad and I have seen it recommended before for pacing. Yet some of the long sentences are too long and the modern reader will get bored. No one wants a blood pressure of 500 over 50.
Completely unintentional. I wasn't trying for it, though now that you point it out, I'll do my best to not make it a habit. Maybe just keep it in the beginning for subtle effect? Really good eye.
quote:Originally posted by Princesisto: The 3rd sentence, for example, is sort of cute but the reader can get lost in all that verbiage. Try "She had just slipped in to watch the movie but now noticed a teenaged couple at the back, acting out their own movie."
I was trying not to simply say there were making out, but perhaps I should. Seems cliche though. I kinda liked that "plot lines" could be a double entendre. Although, it does bring a little ego grin with it.
quote:She had just slipped in to watch the movie, and amusingly noted a teenaged couple in the back row, making out.
And should it be teenage or teenaged? My Merriam-Webster dictionary app has the same definition for both. If I were to hyphenate it, I guess teen-aged would be more appropriate, but it catches my eye when I read it. That could just be my eye. -_0
quote:Originally posted by Princesisto: I think the sentence about Kieth adds nothing and beats the cute little aside to death.
She isn't lamenting the tiny audience because not enough people attend a movie she fancies. She's lamenting the small audience because it means she will have to admit Bob, and she doesn't like Bob. I had the teenage couple tossed in for contrast, and I wanted to make it clear they were not the reason for her discontent. Hence the line about them not upsetting her. Then I considered that they might upset the audience, and she would likely note this, since she's an employee, and would comment to herself that Kieth might have to talk to them. Kieth makes a dramatic appearance in the next paragraph. I could cut him out of the first, and perhaps the entire comment about them possibly disturbing the audience. That actually might make the line "Bob was here again." more appropriate. Hrmm....
quote:They didn't upset her. Old Bob Gantry was here again.
That way, his mention would imply that he did upset her, which is what I do wish to imply. The Kieth bit sort of makes that unclear.
quote:Originally posted by Princesisto: I guess the Oxford comma in the next sentence is American usage. I don't want to start a 100 hour debate on the issue, which has never been finally resolved.
I don't have a can opener on me, so I'll leave those worms for someone else. I'll just try to remain consistent. I'm sure the readers will be fine with that.
quote:Originally posted by Princesisto: The final sentence: I thought you were leaving why she was displeased at his presence open, so as to attract the reader to find out why. But are you telling why in the last sentence, because he is a drunkard? If so, the rest of that horridly long sentence is unnecessary, description and all.
No no, not because he's a drunkard or homeless. She doesn't like his intrusive social faux pas, however, the whiskey on his breath doesn't make it easier for her. She feels trapped, unable to avoid his rambling tales and bits of wisdom, because she has to attend the ticket counter. If she didn't have to deal with him so often, or felt she could excuse herself from his company, she would likely find him rather adorable. Most people do.
The description of him is simply a description. I can move it elsewhere if it causes such confusion in the reader. I want it to be clear that she doesn't dislike his status, only his personality. He would rub her just as wrong if he were rich and well groomed.
quote:Originally posted by Princesisto: But I would say don't tell now why she is displeased. Stop with "the cause of her displeasure", let it sit a while and go on to tell us what happens in the cinema. These 13 lines go on a bit long and the reader might be saying by now "Nothing's happening here."
Hope that helps.
P
I think the limit of 13 lines is a bit too constraining. I can't fit everything in a scene into so few characters, and sometimes it feels like people want me to. I describe Bob, because I just introduced Bob, and he is pivotal to the drama which immediately takes place in the next paragraph.
If you could see the whole page as it would be in the book, you would not say nothing is happening, because dialogue is presently presented, and conflict starts. This kicks off the whole shebang and leads her directly to wind up on a riverbank in a strange magical world. I want Bob to give her some wisdom, and have it be satisfied far far far later in the story. Perhaps a sea tale, or perhaps a nugget of unpolished truth, not sure yet. Likely a bit of both.
Meh. I dunno. I'm still trying to figure this all out. I could be off the mark. I probably am.
Here's the opening with the suggested edits, well most of them. Removing the line about Kieth allows me to post the entire first paragraph again. Neat. I would delve into the film, but I haven't picked out which movie to use yet, so [INSERT MOVIE HERE] is about the best I've got. This is under 13 lines now, but until I pin down which film to use for the scene, it's about all I have without jumping into the dialogue with Kieth, which I can now see would not be appropriate without first describing the film.
Writer problems. I'll take 'em!
quote:The ticket girl lamented the nearly empty cinema, while the audience in plush chairs before her enjoyed her favorite classic film. Well, most of them did. She had just slipped in to watch the movie, and amusingly noted a teenaged couple in the back row, making out. They didn't upset her. Old Bob Gantry was here again. Galwin didn't care for the old sailor, but the owner let him sit in on cold nights like this, when his presence wouldn't disturb a tiny audience. The cost of admission was never mentioned when it came to old Bob.
I feel like I missed something, but I'm guessing someone will point it out. I have a dinner date, so I have to cut this short.
Thanks for your insights and critiques. Best community ever. Posts: 76 | Registered: Apr 2019
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posted
The present descriptions for the dramatic import of the scene amount to Bob is an unintended oracle per Homer's Odyssey, a messenger scene also per Odyssey emulations, Charles Frazier, Cold Mountain, and Joel and Ethan Coen motion picture O Brother Where Art Thou?
Artful messenger scenes present off-kilter prophesies from peculiar oracles for events to come. The off-kilter nature poses reader appeal through comparisons between the prophesies and actual events when those unfold. Of course, the prophesies are spoken. Their setups are a challenge.
A drunken old salt suits the basics for an oracle scene setup. Though -- cut to the chase, as proverbial they say in Hollywood, as soon as practical. Or, lose the pump primers, as they say in writing studio workshops.
"lamented" Is that part of a teenager's informal vocabulary? Narrator sophistication maybe. Youngsters these days and for some many years say "hated," "sucked," or similar other terms.
Same for "amusingly noted". Teenager? A narrator extra lens filter anyway, akin to She saw.
"Old Bob Gantry was here again. Galwin didn't care for the old sailor".
Misses or one-dimensional overworks, rather, how Galwin regards Bob. As explained above, Galwin thinks his long-winded intrusions when she's a captive audience late-show ticket clerk are presumptions on her personal space.
"The cost of admission" holds portentous overall proverb and chapter subtitle potentials, though incomplete. A stray quote of similar substance, "You find out your mistakes from an audience that pays admission." - Edgar Bergen
That's a semantic inversion irony. Bergen suffered the "costs of admission" and close audience attention for his Charlie McCarthy ventriloquism flops.
Say, Galwin's costs of admission through a portentous portal into an unexpected milieu? The cost of admission to [place]? Some place's name that foreshadows prophesy and is a semantic inversion irony? A stray thought of the sort: The cost of admission for a free lunch.
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posted
This is rambling, and probably signals the thread is drawing to an end. But....
I peg Galwin to be about 17, above average intelligence, interested in a few peculiar things like classic movies, old time rag, and forgotten books. I don't feel her using the words 'sucks' or 'cool' very often, unless she's trying to fit into a group that does. Also, I'm fairly certain this takes place pre-2000. No smart phones, no massive internet, small community vibe with more TVs than radios. Kids play outside, mom's don't fret. The mall is The Place. That sort of thing.
She's basically me before life sucked the fun out of living. Well, all three main characters are, but she reflects me at that age the most, the hopeful me that was super interested. We don't share interests. Mine were more computers and art and game design, but she has the same passion for hers that I had. She would much rather read a book that hasn't seen the sun in 45 years, than go out drinking or hanging out at the mall.
I should have her reflect on the particular points she dislikes about Bob's character, and not just state 'She didn't care'.
I had first invented Bob in order to bring the theme of home, homelessness and the search for place in the world into the story early. The setting of the theater allowed a film to reflect on the idea of a portal journey.
Sad note: My first idea for a setting was a stupid party... uhg. I've come to learn not to trust my first ideas.
Once I had Bob, however, I felt I needed to give him some satisfying purpose for the tale, rather than being simply a piece of furniture that fits a theme. So, I was going to give him that opportunity to annoy Galwin again, but have it speak a truth to her later on.
Then we went down the maritime path with the water metaphors, and it all sort of snowballed into this very compelling idea you present.
He was never intended to be portentous or play the role of fate seer. I'm trying to avoid fate or prophesy. However, wise words are still wise, and are often not realized as such until much later in life, from my experience.
I could have her realize his wisdom as she dies, and have that be her cost. Very very interesting. O_O
I'll have to mull this one over. Neat concept, eXtrinsic. Posts: 76 | Registered: Apr 2019
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posted
drew, ignorance is only a problem for people who won't admit their ignorance and refuse to do something to remedy it. You are not behaving like that.
Something to consider in your story start:
if Galwin is the night show ticket girl, she doesn't need to look over the almost-empty theater to see that Bob Gantry is in his usual seat.
She will know that Bob Gantry has been admitted because she is the one who has to issue him a ticket without his paying for it, or she is the one who has to let him pass her and go into the theater without giving her a ticket.
Maybe you need to start with her taking tickets (or selling them, or whatever it is she does as the ticket girl), and then seeing Bob Gantry walk in the front door of the movie house. Show us her reaction to him as soon as she sees him.
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quote:Originally posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury: drew, ignorance is only a problem for people who won't admit their ignorance and refuse to do something to remedy it. You are not behaving like that.
quote:Originally posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury: Something to consider in your story start:
if Galwin is the night show ticket girl, she doesn't need to look over the almost-empty theater to see that Bob Gantry is in his usual seat.
She will know that Bob Gantry has been admitted because she is the one who has to issue him a ticket without his paying for it, or she is the one who has to let him pass her and go into the theater without giving her a ticket.
Maybe you need to start with her taking tickets (or selling them, or whatever it is she does as the ticket girl), and then seeing Bob Gantry walk in the front door of the movie house. Show us her reaction to him as soon as she sees him.
You know, I considered that, but having already regressed two scenes, I feared this could become a trend. Although, that would allow her to comment on the film, how much she likes it and why. Perhaps to Bob's date, Miss Pinkerton. Hrmmm...
I'm currently pouring over old movies and music, trying to find what they're watching. Maybe it doesn't have to fit the cross-world adventure theme exactly. I've already tossed out the idea of it needing to be black and white. The Sting has some good ragtime, but I think I can do better.
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posted
Interesting.... One of my absolute favorite movies when I was a child was Disney's Bedknobs and Broomsticks. It doesn't get nearly enough attention, and it does feature 3 orphans, magic, travel to another land... and of course Angela Lansbury. I may use that. It's a cute movie, and has a nice underwater scene with a catchy tune. Although, I'm far more partial to Substitutiary Locomotion. Unless I find a better title, this might be the one.
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posted
I usually don't debate critiques or replies but you asked me some questions and showed some misunderstandings about what I was advising, so I shall briefly reply here.
I must say everyone is on such good behaviour in this thread it seems like another site, so I don't mind "rising again" here so much.
DREW:"The "before her" was recommended to establish her place in the scene as it relates to the audience. Actually, the recommendation was "around her", but she's standing at the far back, not sitting in the seats. If I omit that detail, the reader might think she's out in the lobby, where ticket girls should be. Perhaps I can work it in some other way."
But "before her" sounds like she's her majesty the Queen! You can put in a brief sentence at the start of the paragraph saying that she comes into the cinema to watch the flick. That shuts the matter down. The readers here really love chronological order: once I wrote that my main character started talking and later in the sentence wrote that she had put on her wireless microphone before sitting down at the piano. I got hit with kilogrammes of bricks.
DREW:
"I could start with the moment her boyfriend sneaks in behind her and startles her by saying "Bob's got a date.""
Right! Right! Spot on! Then we don't have to read Lamentations or any other book of the Bible. And the reader says: "Oh! Who is Bob and why is that a problem?" Then they start entertaining themselves by speculating that Bob is her husband, her still-married father, or some other less-than-innocuous scenario.
But if you start with dialogue, there's another wheelie-bin full of bricks rolling around with your name on it . . . .
Here's my proposal for the first few lines:
"What's-her-name sneaked into the cinema, as it was night and no one was at her ticket counter, nor would there be.
Suddenly, what's-his-name whispered into her ear, over her shoulder: "Bob's got a date.""
Try that on.
PRINCESISTO:
"You are doing an almost systolic-diastolic rhythm of long, then short sentences."
DREW:
"Completely unintentional. I wasn't trying for it, though now that you point it out, I'll do my best to not make it a habit. Maybe just keep it in the beginning for subtle effect? Really good eye."
No! No! No! I am not saying to stop it! It's a good literary technique.
I am saying "Shorten the long sentences because your reader can't survive to get to the short ones." The long sentences can still be longER than the short ones but not by such a wide margin.
DREW:
"I was trying not to simply say there were making out, but perhaps I should."
No, I got the "action" going on. If you're quite keen on "plot lines", that's OK. If you are putting her entry to the cinema at the start of this paragraph, you won't need my first clause.
Then try:
"She noticed a teenaged couple near her at the back of the cinema, running their own plot lines, without a care for the movie."
I think that's exponentially better than stating the obvious that they were "making out".
DREW:
"She had just slipped in to watch the movie, and amusingly noted a teenaged couple in the back row, making out. And should it be teenage or teenaged?"
Looking at the internet it's all over the lot. If you're a bullet dodger, say "teen couple", which seems to be most popular on the net.
DREW:
"She isn't lamenting the tiny audience because not enough people attend a movie she fancies. She's lamenting the small audience because it means she will have to admit Bob, and she doesn't like Bob. I had the teenage couple tossed in for contrast, and I wanted to make it clear they were not the reason for her discontent. Hence the line about them not upsetting her. Then I considered that they might upset the audience, and she would likely note this, since she's an employee, and would comment to herself that Kieth might have to talk to them. Kieth makes a dramatic appearance in the next paragraph. I could cut him out of the first, and perhaps the entire comment about them possibly disturbing the audience. That actually might make the line "Bob was here again." more appropriate. Hrmm...." . . . They didn't upset her. Old Bob Gantry was here again. That way, his mention would imply that he did upset her, which is what I do wish to imply. The Kieth bit sort of makes that unclear."
Having read this twice, I think it's Shakespearean: "much ado about nothing".
When you start the story with "Bob's got a date" as I proposed, I think it will resolve itself, as you will have to describe the issue with Bob there and then.
DREW:
"... the Oxford comma ..."
Short answer: you decide but yes, do be consistent.
The author has prima facie jurisdiction to decide all such questions but, when you want to submit, look at your chosen publisher's guidelines: many publishers have a policy on this matter, for or against. If they state no policy, they will normally accept your decision. In general, American publishers seem to like Oxford commas more than Commonwealth ones.
DREW:
"No no, not because he's a drunkard or homeless. She doesn't like his intrusive social faux pas, however, the whiskey on his breath doesn't make it easier for her. She feels trapped, unable to avoid his rambling tales and bits of wisdom, because she has to attend the ticket counter. If she didn't have to deal with him so often, or felt she could excuse herself from his company, she would likely find him rather adorable. Most people do. The description of him is simply a description. I can move it elsewhere if it causes such confusion in the reader. I want it to be clear that she doesn't dislike his status, only his personality. He would rub her just as wrong if he were rich and well groomed."
Again, Shakespearean, in the worst sort of way: but if you put the "Bob's got a date" in the first paragraph and deal with him there, maybe you can briefly state what you want to state about him. What you have told me above is that now you have got one sentence standing in for a giant dollop of backstory: that is why I got lost and most other readers would.
DREW:
"I think the limit of 13 lines is a bit too constraining. I can't fit everything in a scene into so few characters, and sometimes it feels like people want me to."
Too right! That's one of many reasons I stopped doing it.
"If you could see the whole page as it would be in the book, you would not say nothing is happening, because dialogue is presently presented, and conflict starts."
Quite willing! Use itsjack2017@yandex.com
"This kicks off the whole shebang and leads her directly to wind up on a riverbank in a strange magical world."
Now THAT's interesting! We don't get a clue about it in this irrelevant snippet about the ticket girl surveilling teeners who are snogging in the cinema . . . .
DREW:
"The ticket girl lamented the nearly empty cinema, while the audience in plush chairs before her enjoyed her favorite classic film. Well, most of them did. She had just slipped in to watch the movie, and amusingly noted a teenaged couple in the back row, making out. They didn't upset her. Old Bob Gantry was here again. Galwin didn't care for the old sailor, but the owner let him sit in on cold nights like this, when his presence wouldn't disturb a tiny audience. The cost of admission was never mentioned when it came to old Bob."
What you have here is wide of the mark. She's still lamenting but I have to read your author's notes to understand why or even care a little. The sentence with "amusingly" and "making out" is off for the reasons I stated far above. Then saying she didn't mind, in this context, makes it immaterial. Who is Galwin, the ticket girl or the cinema owner? There is not enough here about the relationship between the girl and Bob to make their mention important to the reader, although your notes suggest it is a central part of the book, and you still portray Bob like a no-hoper who lives in the road.
Final word from Princesisto: Follow your own advice about putting Bob in the first paragraph, as in my draft above. That sorts out a lot in the rest of the selection. By the end of the second paragraph, the reader needs to understand who Bob really is and why he is important to the ticket girl (her name would also be a pleasure).
posted
Much of this first part is here simply to establish theme and indicate genre. The film and Bob are meant to show in microcosm, what the book will be about, more or less. I may have lost something in trying to build that idea up.
Kathleen advised possibly taking it back one more scene. That can still start with dialogue, allow us to see her selling tickets, so naming her 'ticket girl' would be unecessary. I can have her react naturally to Bob as he enters, making his behavior an act we see play out, instead of a reflection in her mind. I can introduce Bob's date, with Galwin talking briefly about their mutual love of the film, to establish that. Then we can follow Galwin in real time as she sneaks into the cinema to watch, get startled by Kieth, and... yeah.
I believe that would be a more natural way to start, and should lay your concerns about the above to rest. The more I consider your critique, the better an idea it sounds to have the book start in the lobby. I can begin right with Gantry entering, or hrm.... Still need to make it pop from the start.
If I end the chapter with her fall, as a result of heeding Bob's wisdom, perhaps even thinking about him as she dies, it might be best to open the chapter with him as well, using Bob as bookends to encapsulate the chapter. Begin and end with Bob on her mind. Hrmm.... I think I like that idea a lot.
posted
When I consider all the events, it occurs to me that the pivotal event that changes everything is the breaking of the film stock. This is either a chance event, or a result of Kieth's decision to leave the projection booth. I really want it to stem directly from Galwin's choices. I may have to rework it so she calls him out of the booth, instead of it being his decision. Hrmm... that teen couple could be useful here. I'll have to think about this some more.
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posted
Ah-ha! I think I've got it. I originally had Galwn get upset at Keith because he wasn't as torn up about the film breaking as she was. This always seemed wrong to me. Projectionists tend to be very passionate about the work they do, and it felt ingenuous that he would be so calous. But what if it's the other way around? What if he blames her for pulling him out of the booth, and he leaves her to walk home alone. It's his job on the line, after all. This would make the event stem from her decisions, not his. Hrmmmm... Her decision to call him down would have to be a good one, in her mind. If I have the teen couple actually causing a disturbance, forcing her to address that as a good employee, then it could still be the actions of a good person, just doing her job. Plus, that would add some conflict too. I think this works so much better than my first idea. Yes. First ideas are not very good, I've come to understand.
I realize this section isn't for discussing plot. :/ I'll go write up my final opening draft and get back to you with a more appropriate post. Just working out this thread of ideas helps me to see it better. I'll refrain from making this a habit. :|
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posted
Princesto might mean, if a first sentence is a dialogue line, might that be the dread speech (or thought) from a disembodied mind -- all too common.
"lament," verb or noun, means an aural, visual, or both display of bereavement.
The likewise dreaded scene-to-scene backward regression tries for an aptest start time, place, and dramatic situation. Too easy to regress a start to ab ovo, from an egg's conception.
The standard guidance, write a raw draft through and through anyway, then review for rewrites and revisions after the draft enjoys a fermentation break, suits the challenge of an aptest start strategy.
A plan-intuition-both writer might ask up front what is a story's destination, end, outcome, payoff, what a story is truly about. Message is, ultimately, the substantive facet of all the former. A milieu emphasis, likewise, all the former, ends upon a return to a previous normal routine or establishes a normal routine within a new milieu and, either way, a discovered moral truth and life-lesson learned message.
The former above, example of excellence, Mark Twain, A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court; the latter, Cormac McCarthy, The Road.
Therefore, setup of a setting's (time, place, situation) routine interruption is a highmark for a milieu emphasis story, novel, or narrative essay. Actually, any story wants a routine-interruption outset setup. Another writing workshop proverb: Three hundred sixty-five days a year, the moment that's markedly different is a story's start.
Considerations for a media type, a movie, as it were, for the novel that parallels the interruption setup:
Extant movies are subject to copyright. Title names can be used, some limited paraphrases can be used, though limited to incidental uses or social commentary purposes: parody, lampoon, etc. Films from before 1924 are now public domain. January 1st each year hence, the copyright year lapse date advances a year: January 1st, 2020, all works from prior to 1925 enter the public domain, etc.
Such media uses want relevance throughout a whole or are otherwise throwaways. Once and done and over at a start leaves audiences to wonder, if so much word count expended, emphasized, that is, the motif(s) must be important, where's the later relevance?
A device, known as False Documents, invents fictive media that is real-world within a story's milieu: fictive films, novels, poems, diaries, songs, essays, memos, letters, email, websites, encyclopedias, dictionary entries, commercials, ship's logs, technology, consumer goods, magic spells, magazines, etc., any media, any material invented for dramatic effect and to validate a narrative's reality imitation, also known as verisimilitude and several other labels.
Kurt Vonnegut's alter-ego Kilgore Trout published False Document missives in Vonnegut's milieus, and were published in Venus on the Half-Shell within the milieu. The novel escaped from the fictive milieu in 1975, by Vonnegut consent, published by Philip José Farmer. An uncommon example of ostension: folklore artifacts become real-world real fact.
A consideration(s) is whether or not to invent a movie that is Galwin's favorite, whether or not the theater scene occasions a routine interruption setup for a milieu emphasis, and what of the start time, place, and situation occasions an early enough interruption setup that readers soon realize before Galwin.
quote:To play devil's advocate, this scene isn't ended in thirteen lines. Unless there's something I'm missing. There's probably something I'm missing.
What you’re missing is that readers aren’t conscripts, they’re volunteers. They won’t read to the end of the scene unless you make them want to. In general, a reader arrives with mild curiosity, that fades, line by line, unless you replace it by active interest. And since they’re surrounded by thousands of other books, all shouting, “Read me, I’m better,” the reader is on a hair-trigger. Bore them for a line while you’re auditioning; lecture them for a line; confuse them, and the audition is over. As Sol Stein put it: “A novel is like a car—it won’t go anywhere until you turn on the engine. The “engine” of both fiction and nonfiction is the point at which the reader makes the decision not to put the book down. The engine should start in the first three pages, the closer to the top of page one the better.”
quote: You're referring to the "Writing Fiction for Dummies" book, correct?
No, the article was condensed from, Dwight Swain’s, Techniques of the Selling Writer.
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quote:Originally posted by Jay Greenstein: What you’re missing is that readers aren’t conscripts, they’re volunteers. They won’t read to the end of the scene unless you make them want to. In general, a reader arrives with mild curiosity, that fades, line by line, unless you replace it by active interest. And since they’re surrounded by thousands of other books, all shouting, “Read me, I’m better,” the reader is on a hair-trigger. Bore them for a line while you’re auditioning; lecture them for a line; confuse them, and the audition is over.
I never thought of it that way. I'm competing for attention on the shelf, and there are many heavyweights to contend with. No pressure!
quote:Originally posted by Jay Greenstein: No, the article was condensed from, Dwight Swain’s, Techniques of the Selling Writer.
Ah. I shall add it to the shelf, then. Thank you for the clarification. Posts: 76 | Registered: Apr 2019
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quote:Originally posted by extrinsic: Princesto might mean, if a first sentence is a dialogue line, might that be the dread speech (or thought) from a disembodied mind -- all too common.
You're probably right. I think the dialogue I have is not of this sort. I hope. 0_0
quote:Originally posted by extrinsic: "lament," verb or noun, means an aural, visual, or both display of bereavement.
I've eliminated the word from the draft, and I shall reserve it for more apt situations. It's pretty strong, and as you say, observable. Her thoughts are not. Thanks.
quote:Originally posted by extrinsic: The likewise dreaded scene-to-scene backward regression tries for an aptest start time, place, and dramatic situation. Too easy to regress a start to ab ovo, from an egg's conception.
The standard guidance, write a raw draft through and through anyway, then review for rewrites and revisions after the draft enjoys a fermentation break, suits the challenge of an aptest start strategy.
I have the opening scene set. I dare not regress any further. I believe I was needlessly worrying about it. It makes complete sense to start with admission, I see that now. It's, well... you'll see.
quote:Originally posted by extrinsic: A plan-intuition-both writer might ask up front what is a story's destination, end, outcome, payoff, what a story is truly about. Message is, ultimately, the substantive facet of all the former. A milieu emphasis, likewise, all the former, ends upon a return to a previous normal routine or establishes a normal routine within a new milieu and, either way, a discovered moral truth and life-lesson learned message.
I can't seem to avoid that monomyth, no matter how I try. Shucks. Well, if the shoe fits....
quote:Originally posted by extrinsic: Therefore, setup of a setting's (time, place, situation) routine interruption is a highmark for a milieu emphasis story, novel, or narrative essay. Actually, any story wants a routine-interruption outset setup. Another writing workshop proverb: Three hundred sixty-five days a year, the moment that's markedly different is a story's start.
"Then suddenly, everything changed." <- story starts here. I do understand this much, but I also recognize the opening doesn't always match that moment precisely. Sometimes there's a little prelude, introduction, or other setup that immediately leads into the story.
If I were to start right at the moment everything changed, she would be sliding across the hood of a car in the opening line. I would have to use reflection or a flashback to establish her old life, as I was forced to do when she was on that riverbank, prior to these many rewrites. Powerful? Yes. Best? Perhaps.
I don't know. It feels like a cheap fish hook to me. A parlor trick designed to fool the reader into thinking they like the story. I'm not comfortable playing cheap tricks just to knock out the other books on the shelf. Maybe that's foolish, but I don't write because I'm wily or wise.
If the reader isn't willing to give me a little time to turn down the house lights and raise the curtain, I don't think we should be seeing each other. Crass, but it's how I feel. I did say in my introduction that I could rub some people wrong with my sense of morality. I understand if this point of view loses me some respect. I won't deny my faults. :|
quote:Originally posted by extrinsic: Considerations for a media type, a movie, as it were, for the novel that parallels the interruption setup:
Extant movies are subject to copyright. Title names can be used, some limited paraphrases can be used, though limited to incidental uses or social commentary purposes: parody, lampoon, etc. Films from before 1924 are now public domain. January 1st each year hence, the copyright year lapse date advances a year: January 1st, 2020, all works from prior to 1925 enter the public domain, etc.
Such media uses want relevance throughout a whole or are otherwise throwaways. Once and done and over at a start leaves audiences to wonder, if so much word count expended, emphasized, that is, the motif(s) must be important, where's the later relevance?
It's funny. I was going to demonstrate for you that I didn't need to name the film, or describe it any recognizable way, for it to serve the purpose I intended it to. I began writing a simple exchange between Miss Pinkerton and Galwin to show this, and well... it turned into the entire first chapter. It sort of just wrote itself. It was really easy, and I was excited to write it. I'm even more excited to have someone read it.
On that note, here is my final opening scene. I can't imagine changing it to any other time in the story. It just works so well, and does everything I wanted to and more. It even incorporates your "cost of admission" so well, it's downright spooky. The ending paragraphs of the chapter actually make me well up a bit. 0_0 That's probably just me, though. I don't know how a reader would respond until I let a few at it. I hope they make it to that point. I'm honestly curious if it has the same effect.
"I'm excited to see this one!" Miss Pinkerton exclaimed, as she handed the ticket girl her money.
"Are you familiar with it?" Galwin asked, handing her a ticket for the last show.
"Oh yes! Three orphans off on a magical adventure? It's one of my favorites."
"Mine too," Galwin said.
Miss Pinkerton, smiling, turned and entered the cinema. She was a sweet old woman, but a little lonely since Mr. Pinkerton passed. Galwin was glad she still came to the cinema.
She had the shutter pulled halfway down, ready to close the booth for the night, when old Bob Gantry sauntered into view. She pushed the shutter back up with a sigh.
quote:Originally posted by drew: I never thought of it that way. I'm competing for attention on the shelf, and there are many heavyweights to contend with. No pressure!
Yes, that competition is nearly impossible at every step. But once they've read your first sentence, you have the advantage -- your book is in their hands. You second sentence is very convenient.
So your opening just has to be good enough to keep the reader reading. It shouldn't give them a reason to stop. I'm not saying that's easy to do. But it doesn't require histrionics.
And your book has to appeal to only some readers. Apparently most readers do not like Twilight, that's why it sold only 120 million copies [Edited: for the series], but that still worked out well for the author.
quote:Originally posted by drew: I realize this section isn't for discussing plot.
I can certainly serve that purpose. Why create a separate topic to discuss the same story? You are welcome to get feedback on the plot and any other aspect of the story in a Fragments topic.
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posted
"'I'm excited to see this one!' Miss Pinkerton exclaimed, as she handed the ticket girl her money."
Speech from a disembodied mind, said-bookism "exclaimed," "as" correlation conjunction misuse that causes a fused sentence run-on and a not-simultaneous mistake and causation inversion.
Money handed to Galwin first, then a minor setting detail about the ticket booth that expresses an emotional commentary of Galwin's, then Pinkerton's dialogue line, is a logical and possible tension setup sequence and possible narrative distance closes from Galwin's personal external perceptions and thought presences. A template worth consideration anyway.
Ms. Pinkerton's scene presence for the latest fragment would be a throwaway if Bob's close in proximity presence were a throwaway feature, too. Otherwise, the proximal nature remotely intimates they will rendezvous in the theater. Pinkerton's excitement also suggests the movie is not what she's excited about -- prior arrangements afoot!? Some stronger cue for readers might be wanted, not that Galwin need know yet. Maybe Pinkerton shows Bob an unexpected romantic kindness? Pays his admission ticket though disguises her true motives from Galwin? This would be a bridge scene to a later bridge scene to the later main action scenes.
posted
Drew, tip number one, in flashing lights, don't start with dialogue if it can at all be avoided.
Question: What has any of this to do with the real story? You know, the one where she ends up in a different reality. And do any of these hangers-on come with her? I'm betting no.
Phil.
[ April 23, 2019, 07:45 AM: Message edited by: Grumpy old guy ]
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The last three replies have contained the advice, "Don't open with dialogue," with Grumpy's being the most blatant. The manner in which you've all given it, however, leads me to suspect that you don't really believe it to be true. Princesisto doesn't want to talk about it, extrinsic fears it, and Grumpy old guy dressed it up. If you thought it good advice, would you not plainly give it, with some mention of why, beyond it being dreaded and disembodied?
"They're made of meat."
It seems you're trying to convince yourselves, as much as me, that this should be the case, and yet many fine stories exist that seem to defy it, or even celebrate it. I may not know writing, but I do know people. Cognitive dissonance seems afoot.
I thought this was the real story. You have the ending up bit, but where do we start it out? Twenty years or so ago, when I first tried to start this story, she was about to cross the bridge. I painted a nice scene of her reflecting on the night's events that led her to be walking home down a dark country road late at night in the drizzling rain. It was clunky and full of flashbacks to explain how she got here. It didn't offer a way to show her character. It was pretty close to "where everything changed", and it didn't work for me.
Then when I tried again, I put her on the riverbank in the strange world, more as an attempt to avoid the monomyth than anything else, and it still required flashbacks and reflections to establish how she got there. Again, random character we should care about, but don't. It also lacked any genre or thematic indicators.
So I took it back the the theaters, and then again to the ticket booth. It wasn't until the ticket booth that I found a start that required no previous scene to setup how we got here, and I could tell it from here to the riverbank in real time. It allowed us time to meet Galwin as she is, doing things in character. That seems like a story beginning to me.
A new life, and all that she loses, requires some establishment of the old life and all that she stands to lose, for the new life to have any real meaning. Honestly, what is more interesting?
Anonymous girl struck by car? "Everything Changes" Random character we know little about struck by car? "Everything is About to Change" Galwin the ticket girl who we just witnessed lose her job, boyfriend, ride home and chance to see her favorite movie, struck by car? "Everything is Changing"
:/
The opening line of dialogue, I especially like, because it serves as a mirror for the reader. It says, "I'm a reflection of your anticipation, as this story is a reflection of you.". The entire chapter is short, with lots of things leading one into the next. I think it has really fast pacing, and I'm hoping it serves to suck the reader down the drain and spit them out onto that riverbank with Galwin before they know what hit them. Sort of like how she dies.
Every character I name plays a key role in sending her along, even the teen couple who are only ever referred to as Romeo and Juliet have a part. Gantry is the theme and the threshhold. Pinkerton is the mirror and the end, and Keith represents in character, her life being lost. Romeo is literally the vehicle that takes her there. I don't think I can start this story without them all, and while none of them physically join her, she does bring them with her.
And with this reply, I've likely ostracized myself. Good worms, though.
posted
Dialogue without dramatic physical context beforehand or aptly simultaneous, contemporaneous, or sequential is as common as breath across literature. Oh. So-and-so does it; then okay, that's how it's done. Feels right.
Many first sentence dialogue lines launch full ahead, show this scene is a dialogue scene and that's about the full extent of it: conversation for conversation's social pleasantries' sakes. Many other first sentence dialogue lines are dramatic as well. That -- an ideal for a dialogue line at the very first outset.
The several past fragments move away from third, close, limited and more toward third, remote, several indistinct personas, narrator foremost. That's a traditional choice, yet asks for several stronger and different characterization features: in that circumstance, narrator, Galwin, Pinkerton, the ticket booth, Bob, and the dramatic situation itself foremost. Next, the theater auditorium, the sparse crowd, the teenage sweethearts, and Keith, too. Uh-oh, population explosion and all are stone statues.
Pinkerton, Bob, and the ticket booth have near term relevance, not long term; she, he, and the booth are extras, want little characterization development or emphasis, bare verisimilitude features and nonetheless potent drama at that. The voice-over narrator is a mere opaque block in the way of the views of Galwin from her insider perspectives. Traditional narrators, from a stage-left dim-lit lectern, at a forefront express emotional-social-moral commentary about specimens observed, express an attitude, that is: Tone.
Social pleasantry dialogue is as dry and flat as beginner foreign language instruction:
"Hola, Isabel," dijo Juan, "Como estas?" "Ça va," Isabel dit que, "merci, Jean. Et toi?" "Pasa nada," dijo Juan.
General consensus, several responders note the same thing(s), are dialogue from disembodied minds and "cut to the chase." That saying was first used by print shops to mean skip proof prints and proofreads, go direct to production print, cut out the frivolity and get on with the main action. The "chase" for printers is the frame a galley of type is fixed into for platen printer machines, since Gutenberg's original press. Hollywood adopted the saying to mean get to the car or foot chase already, a metaphor derived from the original pragmatic expression: Let the main production begin.
Pinkerton and Galwin can be as pleasant and polite as Ms. Etiquette at a formal cotillion, though their conversation wants dramatic physical detail descriptions and dramatic subtext leavened between the lines, that set up for Galwin's transfer to another locale.
Prose's several expression modes: Description, Introspection (thought), Action, Narration, Emotion, Sensation, Summarization, Exposition, Conversation, Recollection, Explanation, and Transition, DIANE'S SECRET. Action, Emotion, and Sensation are foremost; Description, a close second, Conversation and Introspection, nearby third; Recollection next, followed by Transition; last in sequence, Narration, Summarization, and Explanation.
Add dramatic emphases' seven aspects: Setting, Plot, Idea, Character, Event, and Discourse, SPICED; and drama's three factors: Antagonism, Causation, and Tension, ACT; mnemonic device: DIANE'S SECRET SPICED ACT. Or act out, act up, make a spectacle, enACT dramatic performances on the prose page.
Social pleasantries can be dramatic -- if antagonal, causal, and tensional. Antagonal, for example, if Pinkerton and Galwin have ulterior motives, shown through subtext. Say, Pinkerton is Bob's movie date and doesn't want anyone to know. Want is antagonal motivation, and problem. Likewise, what's Galwin's motives at the ticket booth? Maybe prurient interests; Galwin wants to know who, if anyone, is Pinkerton seeing? Though what any of those have to do with Galwin's transfer to another locale are beyond me. How prepared Galwin is or isn't for a severe, pendent routine interruption?
As proverbial they say for stage drama and motion pictures, actors to director, "What's my motivation?" Prose writer is director, script writer or script interpreter, stage designer and setter, costume designer, makeup artist, prop builder, camera people, stunt persons, orchestra, ushers, grips, caterers, extras, actors, etc.
[edited] By the way, not subject to ostracism per moi, maybe a few data points gathered for future response strategies.
posted
So I'll jump here, I hope I don't trod on anyone's toes
quote: "I'm excited to see this one!" Miss Pinkerton exclaimed, as she handed the ticket girl her money.
I'm not against opening with dialogue per so, but it doesn't work for me here, because the sayer doesn't say anything particularly original or seemingly important. The words 'exclaimed' would also be a warning sign for me. The exclamation mark already does the job of signalling that it's an exclamation, marking it with a dialogue tag is redundant and draws attention to itself.
quote:"Are you familiar with it?" Galwin asked, handing her a ticket for the last show.
At this point I get frustrated about not knowing who those characters are. Why is Pinkerton a 'Miss' but Galwin doesn't have a title? If this is third omniscient, why isn't it consistent? If it's third limited, then whose POV are we in? And most importantly, why should I care about these two going to the cinema?
quote: "Oh yes! Three orphans off on a magical adventure? It's one of my favorites."
"Mine too," Galwin said.
Similarly to the lines above, without any context this part seems pointless to me. Is them liking a generic fantasy movie important to the plot for some reason? If it is, I cannot fathom why.
It's OK to have some scenes with characters just hanging out, but after the reader already bought into the characters, not outright in the first paragraph.
quote: Miss Pinkerton, smiling, turned and entered the cinema. She was a sweet old woman, but a little lonely since Mr. Pinkerton passed. Galwin was glad she still came to the cinema.
Now, if I knew this sooner, this would perhaps color the dialogue above.
quote: She had the shutter pulled halfway down, ready to close the booth for the night, when old Bob Gantry sauntered into view. She pushed the shutter back up with a sigh.
And now I'm lost. What booth?
...I went back up and only now realized that the girl handing out money is Galwin. I assumed they are two different people, one an unimportant NPC, and one a person accompanying the old miss who might be the main character. Calling her 'the ticket girl' is strange if this is third limited, and it's confusing even if it's omniscient (I'm still not sure which one it is). Also starting with Pinkerton's suggests that she's the more important character of the two.
I hope I helped.
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posted
I removed this reply. It was unnecessarily terse. I'm sorry. You don't deserve that. You're being helpful, and I'm being a jerk for no good reason. Not that it's any excuse, but I'm back to living on the streets and had about 3 hours of sleep. I will take a few days to review everything you've said and get back to you when I'm less... me. Sorry. Thank you for your input. I really do value your advice.
posted
Originally posted by Emma "Emma Sohan" Sohan
quote: Yes, that competition is nearly impossible at every step. But once they've read your first sentence, you have the advantage -- your book is in their hands. You second sentence is very convenient.
So your opening just has to be good enough to keep the reader reading. It shouldn't give them a reason to stop. I'm not saying that's easy to do. But it doesn't require histrionics.
And your book has to appeal to only some readers. Apparently most readers do not like Twilight, that's why it sold only 120 million copies [Edited: for the series], but that still worked out well for the author.
This, times infinity.
Originally posted by drew, AKA "drew"
quote: "They're made of meat."
Ha! I can't tell you how many times this story has come to mind in the course of my conversations here.
Originally posted by drew, AKA "the OP"
quote: It seems you're trying to convince yourselves, as much as me, that this should be the case, and yet many fine stories exist that seem to defy it, or even celebrate it. I may not know writing, but I do know people. Cognitive dissonance seems afoot.
Ha some more! If I had a goldpiece for every time I've had thoughts like this in the course of my time here, I'd be able to buy that Staff of the Magi I've wanted for the past 20 years.
Cognitive dissonance indeed.
Originally posted by A"Certain"Writer AKA "Writer-kun"
quote: I assumed they are two different people, one an unimportant NPC
You said NPC! I love it. Cross-media references for the win!
Posts: 226 | Registered: Oct 2018
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quote:Originally posted by drew: I removed this reply. ~D
The removed post contained a stronger and clearer start revision that is more potent and passionate than prior versions. I'd meant to post a link to a car crash short story for further rewrite considerations: Denis Johnson, "Car Crash While Hitchhiking," first part of the picaresque novel story collection Jesus' Son, print, 1992; motion picture, 2000, (Washington State University hosted PDF image, ten pages).
When I was your age . . . I loathed if anyone said when I was your age. Anyway, unstable daily life was my norm and all in the way of my fiction ambitions. Distant horizon rumbles of an unstable domicile arise again, as they always do.
[Edited: Six times I've moved for the eleven-year span of my Hatrack membership, thirty-nine lifetime total, and months or longer homeless interludes. Across town transfer more burden than across divides. All the baggage goes local, pared to nil long distance.]
And with this reply, I've likely ostracized myself.
No, you haven’t. If we are going to dish it out then we must accept the idea the recipient of our ‘sage advice’ is entitled to a courteous rebuttal . By posting in the feedback forums you invite criticism; you don’t have to like it or agree with it. In fact, a politely robust attempt at defense can sometimes elicit new insights for both parties.
Now, dialogue as an opening sentence. If I come across it when I open a book, I close it immediately. Why? Leaving aside the fact we don’t know who’s speaking, or where, or why, opening a story with dialogue is indicative of a number of writer shortcomings that are not just possible but probable. Starting with dialogue is easy, unimaginative and demonstrates laziness. How will that carry on forwards: shortcuts in plot, character development, tension and conflict development, and resolution, and, finally, plot? I don’t have the time or money to indulge time-wasters who look for the easy options. Writing is hard; it’s why good writers get paid heaps. Not to imply I’m a good writer getting paid heaps, but in ten minutes I came up with a dozen openings with Mrs Whoever or poor ol' Bob Gantry, none of which included dialogue, yet all began the character development process for both characters, major and throw-away.
quote:Originally posted by extrinsic: The removed post contained a stronger and clearer start revision that is more potent and passionate than prior versions. I'd meant to post a link to a car crash short story for further rewrite considerations: Denis Johnson, "Car Crash While Hitchhiking," first part of the picaresque novel story collection Jesus' Son, print, 1992; motion picture, 2000, (Washington State University hosted PDF image, ten pages).
When I was your age . . . I loathed if anyone said when I was your age. Anyway, unstable daily life was my norm and all in the way of my fiction ambitions. Distant horizon rumbles of an unstable domicile arise again, as they always do.
[Edited: Six times I've moved for the eleven-year span of my Hatrack membership, thirty-nine lifetime total, and months or longer homeless interludes. Across town transfer more burden than across divides. All the baggage goes local, pared to nil long distance.]
Thank you, eXtrinsic. Sometimes it's good to know you're not the first one to travel this dusty road. I appreciate that. Posts: 76 | Registered: Apr 2019
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quote:Originally posted by Grumpy old guy: No, you haven’t. If we are going to dish it out then we must accept the idea the recipient of our ‘sage advice’ is entitled to a courteous rebuttal . By posting in the feedback forums you invite criticism; you don’t have to like it or agree with it. In fact, a politely robust attempt at defense can sometimes elicit new insights for both parties.
I have no problem with brutally critical inspections of my writing. I question criticism, however, when it appears to be based on conjecture, especially when it comes lacking in explanation.
quote:Originally posted by Grumpy old guy: Now, dialogue as an opening sentence. If I come across it when I open a book, I close it immediately. Why?
The invitation to presume your motivations is kindly refused.
quote:Originally posted by Grumpy old guy: Leaving aside the fact we don’t know who’s speaking, or where, or why...
This challenge, on the other hand, is gladly accepted:
quote:"It is the judgement of this court that you be remanded to the custody of the state for no less that 125 years, with no possibility of parole."
Any other objections?
When you tell someone to not do something without explanation, you come off as arrogant and prejudice. I feel I must rebel against your assumed authority, but you leave me with nothing to confront except your character. When you provide a reasonable explanation, you allow me to address it with creativity and skill, instead of a character analysis. I would much prefer to refute authority with my creativity and skill.
quote:Originally posted by Grumpy old guy: ... opening a story with dialogue is indicative of a number of writer shortcomings that are not just possible but probable.
Tolstoy would have words with you.
quote:Originally posted by Grumpy old guy: Starting with dialogue is easy, unimaginative and demonstrates laziness.
I would argue, and others have, that the opposite is true. Starting with effective dialogue is hard because of the points you made above. It not only requires creativity, but also a determination to defend it against critics who feel they must impose on new writers the old rules they themselves are unwilling to break.
Rules in writing, as in all arts, are never hard, and every device can be used to effect by the skilled artist. Opening with dialogue is just another tool in the belt. I would rather know how to use it than to be told it isn't useful at all. I hope you can appreciate this.
quote:Originally posted by Grumpy old guy: How will that carry on forwards: shortcuts in plot, character development, tension and conflict development, and resolution, and, finally, plot?
Assumptions you have admittedly never taken the time to consider, if you can never allow the author the time to convince you otherwise. A closed mind closes many books before reading them, and remains prideful of his ignorance. I find this point of view to be detestable, primarily because it leads to needless conflicts without any clear way to resolve them.
quote:Originally posted by Grumpy old guy: I don’t have the time or money to indulge time-wasters who look for the easy options. Writing is hard; it’s why good writers get paid heaps. Not to imply I’m a good writer getting paid heaps, but in ten minutes I came up with a dozen openings with Mrs Whoever or poor ol' Bob Gantry, none of which included dialogue, yet all began the character development process for both characters, major and throw-away.
I wish you all the good fortune you can muster.
Phil.
I don't know how to respond to this tactfully, so I'll just say this: My life is not up for critique. Please keep your not so subtle insinuations, that I am lazy, unskilled, a timer-waster or unable to muster good fortune, to yourself.
As to your twelve openings, braggadocio does not impress me. Besides, none of them are canon.
posted
Oh my sweet, merciful Goddess, drew that was possibly the most impressive thing I've seen in all my years on Hatrack. You excellently summed up the majority of the issues with how people crit-and approach writing and critting-that I've been on about since what seems like the dawn of time and so far, without being blown to smithereens as I'd most likely have been had I said the same thing.
Heck, you got somebody to thank you for responding to their feedback, rather than attack you for it. That's pretty epic.
My hat is off to you. Leastways it would be, if I had a hat.
Posts: 226 | Registered: Oct 2018
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posted
Nah, we hashed a few things out in private. I probably overreacted, misunderstanding his intent. I can be a little sensitive about my current state. I'll check my emotions at the front desk. I can't speak for Grumpy, but I'm cool now.
Oh, I decided to make my email public, so if people want to contact me, even it's to critique my life, that's a good avenue. I have a lot of insights into characters who live on this side of the tracks.
Posts: 76 | Registered: Apr 2019
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posted
Well, I think I'm ready for a fuller critique of the first chapter, barring any horrible errors in the first 13 lines below. I went with the "Everything Changed" opening that begins right with the car accident, and then devote the rest of the first chapter to a flashback that brings us to that point. I didn't like the idea, but I think it's workable.
I revised the dialogue with Miss Pinkerton, as you all suggested. I added in some description to set the who, where and why. I also gave some hints that she was expecting someone. I made it clear that we're dealing with a ticket booth for a cinema right up front. I think that covers the major points you mentioned.
I've been reading our host's Characters and Viewpoints (I understand better, now, what you've all been trying to do), and while this could make a fine milieu piece, I honestly think it's a character story at heart, with a strong milieu. I think that's why I feel like I need to establish her in her own world before thrusting into the world of Lore.
I may skip the riverbank scene altogether. The second major character is very soon introduced, rescuing Galwin from jumping off a bridge (she thinks she can get home the same way she came). I may start there, and take Scylia's viewpoint of the rescue, and describe Galwin as being in a sort of daze until Scylia physically grabs her (the first "human" contact she would have had since her arrival on Lore). I believe the physical contact snaps her out of it, and she wakes up in that moment, yelling at her rescuer.
I may cover the riverbank another way, with just a brief campfire recounting of what she remembers. Not a full flashback, but a conversation.
It took me a bit of pondering to figure out why Scylia would save Galwin, but I worked out a compelling reason that fits her character and isn't just mere coincidence or fate. Now I just have to write it.
That rescue, and the following conflict, should lead organically into meeting the third and final character, Lyra. Still working out how to transition from there into the main plot without having it feel weird or forced or convenient.
Since this is YA, I put much thought into love interests. I have some ideas, but I need to explore the world a bit more before I find Mr. (or Ms.) Right. I'm actually leaning towards Ms.. Maybe a little cross-species action. Dunno yet.
I've grown fond of the name Galwin, but it's just a tad too weird for a 90's American teen girl, even if her parents were hippies, which they aren't. Uhg. I've renamed her in this revision to be Gwen, which is the closest feminine name that resembles hers, without bastardizing Gavin to be feminine.
Ok, so without further delaying and exposition, here are my (hopefully) final 13 lines. They are pretty much the same ones I had in the reply I removed, minus the snark. Stay brutal, my friends.
The car bounced, swerved into the wrong lane, and over-corrected back towards the railing where Gwen stood. It struck her dead-on and she was bent nearly in two across the grill, her legs shattering from the force. Her hands slid across the hot metal hood, and her face impacted the glass with a crunch. She was thrown airborne. Her body tossed aside, spun in midair and fell over the rail towards the icy water. The river water gave way to her with a bone shattering explosion, and she immediately began to sink. The surface swallowed and gulped her down, and the pain made itself present and prime. Gwen reached and grasped at the receding surface, painfully, desperately trying to kick the remains of her mangled legs.
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Some small things. Do you need "From the force?" If it helps, it helps, but I think the readers will already understand. You've already figured out to pare out unnecessary words, I can tell by how well the rest of the paragraph works.
I'm pretty sure you don't want "bone-shattering explosion". She has enough shattered bones already, and water doesn't explode. Everyone else gets metaphorical freedom on that, but you are so vividly precise I think you have to keep that up.
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posted
Powerful scene, the latest fragment version. Some thoughts for aesthetics considerations and a few minor grammar adjustments below.
Meantime, a thought about workshop conventions: a general and principle set is submissions offered for comment will garner what works and what doesn't work comments, for a given responder, considerations for facets to enhance a creator's extant creative vision, and an unspoken principle: submissions are always considered offered to prompt adjustment enhancements.
"railing" leaves many other possibilities open than might be the intent, weighted against the primitive thoughts that someway foreshadow and go along with a traumatic experience's impact. //guardrail//?
An aesthetic consideration there and, further, likewise, is the odd way time perception flows when such an event transpires, slows, stalls, or altogether suspends, and how to use diction and syntax, etc., to imply that distorted time sense.
The first sentence, for example, barrels full ahead speed, due to syntax and somewhat diction. For such as that and to slow Gwen's time sense of the car crash-pedestrian event, one method uses judicious polysydeton: multiple conjunction words. Ample intuitive polysyndeton for that distorted time sense function as is, though on the succinct end of the axis. Another method uses longer descriptive phrases.
Another uses off-kilter description details. Or all the former and above and similar others. Say, apt or non-succinct, off-kilter, judicious article adjective use, A instead of "The"? Or skip articles if the sense accepts. Otherwise, plural nouns avoid articles altogether, hence, stretches time sense duration.
Plus, ample regular and special punctuation marks imply a jumpy, excited, emotional, off-kilter time sense, especially apt, judicious dashes; nextmost, judicious ellipsis points. Wordiness for dramatic effect, rather than pretentious airs, is a sublime prose method. Not, though, that the fragment evinces pretensions.
Another method uses fragmentary syntax units that imply fragmented perceptions and thoughts. Sentence subjects might be omitted if a sentence fragment is proximal to a prior intended subject and implied governs a sentence fragment's predicate, as the illustration below demonstrates.
"The car bounced, swerved into the wrong lane, and over-corrected [overcorrected, (one word)] back towards the railing where Gwen stood."
For a crash scene, a few of those words, verbs especially, are on-the-nose succinct. Maybe too succinct for the scene situation? Also, a few judicious adjectives could lend an air of suspended time movement yet the read and comprehension ease and action situation plow forward anyway.
An advanced prose topic entails different time senses: narrative time and story time. Narrative time is how much time expended and sensed from actual read time, and may rush, dwell, stall, or match story time. Story time is elapsed time within a narrative's milieu; what, an instant, seconds, years, eons transpire?
Illustration:
//A putz BMW bobbled on a road lump. And fled over into the far off lane. Back again, and scared driver -- to the guardrail, at her.//
A person would think the self's name for such an occasion? Seamless methods for name introductions wait for another persona to address a viewpoint persona, or a viewpoint persona introduces the self to another persona, or a viewpoint persona addresses the self aloud or by thought, maybe self-castigates.
The above illustration is about the same word count and real estate consumed as the original, accessible, relatable, comprehensible, non-gimmicky, stronger and clearer personal to Gwen perspective and attitude and characterization from the get-go foremost (putz, one word or so could do much narrative distance closure and character and situation characterization mischief), and a slowed time sense from off-kilter perceptions.
Example exaggerated for effect and such -- so as not to usurp another's creative vision. And, of course, ample occasion for similar other of the creator's design there and throughout.
However, write on ahead. These above considerations ought could be left for rewrites and revisions. Re-visions re-seen and revised from later possibly more dramatic perspectives.
By the way, a slipstream timeline tames flashbacks and recollections' errant time transition senses. Slipstream timelines treat each and all scenes as present-now sense events, in simple past if the main tense, without regard to detailed scene-by-scene, segment-by-segment, and overall temporal organization of When emphasis.
Expanded white space, section, and chapter breaks mark slipstream jump transitions. A mere empty line break for a minor transition; type art nonce glyphs, page centered, for more substantial time and maybe place and viewpoint persona transitions.
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Standard Publication Format examples above. Three hashmarks, page centered, is the Standard Manuscript Format convention.
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I might could read further as a somewhat engaged reader anyway.
Come a long way, haven't we, from the check-out girl spying on the teeners in the cinema hall?
I don't know how to do exponents in this format but this is exponentially better!
It has action, shock-value, it gets the readers' attention and makes them want to know "Why?"
Now it could develop in many different ways: horror, certainly. Mystery is open. Maybe a psychological analysis about how she got to this place and why. That I have no idea which way it will go after the first 13 lines is a very good thing.
So may I join the others in praising this metamorphosis.
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Good worms, though.
