Hatrack River Writers Workshop Post New Topic  Post A Reply
my profile login | register | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Hatrack River Writers Workshop » Forums » Discussing Published Hooks & Books » Harry Potter 6 SPOILERS!! (Page 1)

  This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2   
Author Topic: Harry Potter 6 SPOILERS!!
Christine
Member
Member # 1646

 - posted      Profile for Christine   Email Christine         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
If you haven't read the sixth book, stop reading before we give away the ending, which is quite good, IMHO. Otherwise, come on in and share your feelings.

So, first of all, I think it's quickly promising to be my favorite. I want to reread it before I make that decision, as a truly good book is also good on a reread, and because I've reread the others and found them almost as enjoyable the second time around.

Second, I'm afraid I did know, or at least highly suspect, that Dumbledore was going to be the main character Rowling said would die in this one. I'm afraid I did not feel she could have a successful last book with such a wise and powerful wizard overshadowing him. I thought his death came off rather spectacularly, even if it did make me sad to see him go. I was far more fond of him than I ever was of Serius.

Snape's betrayal, on the other hand, did surprise me. It's not like there wasn't always the possibility. She definitely laid it out so that he could choose either side to truly join at a moment's notice, but somehow I thought Dumbledore had some really good reason up his sleeves to trust Snape. I still hope he had one, and that it comes out in the last book.

Anyway, I'll have more to say, I'm sure, but for now I thought I'd open it up to reactions and predictions for the final volume....


Posts: 3567 | Registered: May 2003  | Report this post to a Moderator
rickfisher
Member
Member # 1214

 - posted      Profile for rickfisher   Email rickfisher         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I pretty much agree, especially about the Snape bit. Even if Dumbledore was wrong about Snape (as it certainly appears right now) we haven't been given any remotely convincing reason for him to have trusted Snape. As Lupin said, "I trust Dumbledore's judgment." Well, don't we all? He could be wrong, but if it turns out he was merely a fool I'll be very disappointed.

And something that makes me think that Snape could still be working for Dumbledore: When Snape appeared, Dumbledore said, "Severus . . . please, Severus." This sounds like begging. But Snape hadn't done anything at that point (I mean anything new) to indicate that he was on Voldemort's side. So why wasn't Dumbledore saying, "Ah, there you are" or "Just in time, Severus"? Unless he WAS begging Snape to do something, previously arranged, that Snape really didn't want to do--and Snape did it.

Maybe I'm overthinking this.


Posts: 932 | Registered: Jul 2001  | Report this post to a Moderator
Christine
Member
Member # 1646

 - posted      Profile for Christine   Email Christine         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Argh! Not you too!

That's not the first time i heard that theory, but I think it's total rubbish. First of all, that interpretation amounts to a cheat. If there was *anything* in Dumbledore's voice that suggested he wasn't begging then we, as active viewers of the scene through Harry's eyes, better have heard it too. I know Rowling has withheld information before, but nothing like this, and never in such a dispicable, low, completely rip-off way. If that is the answer I swear I will call the whole series a wash, despite loving it to this point. But it just can't be because there's no way any remotely competent writer or storyteller would use such a device. Dumbledore was begging. In fact, there was a change in that scene. I can't put my finger on it, but I knew the moment Snape walked into the room that it wasn't good. The simple fact that he was there and not staying out of it spoke volumes for what he was planning to do...being there meant he had to blow his cover for one side or the other (depending upon which way he decided to go). No, his walking into that room told Dumbledore what he would do.

As to whether or not he's really a bad guy...I understand why people are saying no. From the first book, ROwling has set him up as a dispicable character who nevertheless worked against the bad guys and was therefore, sort of, a good guy. It was part of her "the world is not black and white" theme. In fact, Snape was her biggest contributor to that theme in the past.

The thing is, though, that *I* can't forgive him. Not for this. Unfairly docking points right and left is one thing, but he KILLED DUMBLEDORE. The story's heor to date. Or at least, the hero's hero. He can't just walk back in and say that they had planned it all along and Dumbledore had asked him to do it -- no. Uh uh. Not gonna happen. Not gonna believe him. Not when Dumbledore, weak and helpless for the first time in the series, begged for his life. (And I already said I won't see that any other way without calling the whole series wasted.) The way I see it, the moment was truly significant...Dumbledore's whole death is just the next great adventure thing and I'm sure he believed it but in the last seconds of ihs life he was as afraid as anyone else to die. It made him more human than he had ever been in the series, when he seemed so distant and aloof.


Posts: 3567 | Registered: May 2003  | Report this post to a Moderator
iamfetch
Member
Member # 2684

 - posted      Profile for iamfetch   Email iamfetch         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
No, you're not. I was thinking the same thing and scratching my head, wondering why Dumbledore was pleading with Snape rather than relieved to see the person he supposedly trusted so much.

When i first read the word snogging, I laughed. I knew what it meant, but it just sounds really funny when not accustomed to it. I guess it's the combination of the words snot and hog that got me.

Over all, the book was ok. I found the beginning a little bit harder to get into, but the ending proved worth it. I loved Harry's grim determination at the end and how grown up he has become. It feels like I have grown up with the books, having started the first one at 11 and reading the most current at 16. To me, the series hasn't been about how good the writing was or wasn't. It's been about the overall story and concept of a boy growing up trying to be good, while facing the evils out in the world, that are there for all of us.


Posts: 14 | Registered: Jun 2005  | Report this post to a Moderator
'Graff
Member
Member # 2648

 - posted      Profile for 'Graff   Email 'Graff         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I was certain that Dumbledore would die very early on. And it still riled me up when it happened.

What's with this quote:
"Then several people screamed. Bright, white flames had erupted around Dumbledore's body and the table upon which it lay: higher and higher they rose, obscuring the body. White smoke spiralled into the air and made strange shapes: Harry thought, for one heart-stopping moment, that he saw a phoenix fly joyfully into the blue, but next second the fire had vanished. In its place was a white marble tomb, encasing Dumbledore's body and the table on which he had rested."

She's not setting up an Obi-Wan Kenobi with this, is she? I don't want Dumbledore coming back from the dead and teaching Harry anything. That would irk me considerably, especially since she made such a big deal about coming back from the dead in interviews, etc.

Is anyone falling for the R.A.B = Regulus Black gibberish that so many are propounding? Anyone see another possibility?

----------
Wellington


Posts: 114 | Registered: Jun 2005  | Report this post to a Moderator
WobblyG
Member
Member # 2055

 - posted      Profile for WobblyG   Email WobblyG         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I really wanted to believe that Snape was a bad guy and killed Dumbledore out of pure evil. I have loathed him from book 1. However, I have to say that I believe Snape is still working for the Order of the Phoenix.

To Christine’s point, clearly Dumbledore was begging, but for a different reason than Harry thought. To Harry is looked like Dumbledore was begging Snape not to kill him. That to me is totally out of character for Dumbledore. I cannot imagine him begging FOR his life. I believe he was essentially begging Snape to go through with their plan and kill him, thus protecting his cover.

Why do I think this? Several reasons.:

1. I still trust Dumbledore’s judgment. He has a good reason that we do not know for trusting Snape. I think if Snape were really a bad guy, JK would have shown us the reason and then shown how Snape had deceived Dumbledore about it. (I really wish I knew what it was, but I am sure we will find out in book 7.)

2. We know that Draco’s task was to kill Dumbledore. Snape made the unbreakable vow that he would help Draco to accomplish it and the penalty for not fulfilling the vow would have been Snape’s death. (Which I would have preferred!) I think Dumbledore believed that the only way of finding all the Horcruxes is to have Snape be a spy to find out that information. I could then see Dumbledore believing that Snape’s life and position in the Death eaters was more valuable than his own life. If they now had to choose between them… He also mentioned to Harry several times about how little his own life was worth compared to Harry’s, so there is a precedent.

3. I think when Hagrid heard Dumbledore and Snape arguing, and saying that Snape had agreed to it and had to go through with it, that it was an argument on Snape needing to be willing to kill Dumbledore if it was required to keep his cover. That sounds like something Dumbledore would do: sacrifice himself for the good of the cause.

4. He may have been dying anyway from the potion he drank. He didn’t ask to be taken to Madam Pomphrey, but he asked to be taken to Snape. The perfect opportunity to fulfill the vow and solidify Snape’s cover in the Death Eaters.

5. He spend a good part of the book passing on his knowledge to Harry, indicating to me that he may have been planning his own death once Snape had told him he had made the Unbreakable Vow.

6. I am not sure that Dumbledore is really dead. This may be my own wishful thinking (Dumbledore’s death disturbed me more than I thought a fictional character’s death could), but Dumbledore is very closely associated with the symbol of the Phoenix: The order of the Phoenix, Faux the Phoenix, his patronous is a phoenix (JK mentioned this in an interview), and I would be willing to bet that his wand core is a phoenix feather. That has to mean something. He had also mentioned to Draco that the order has a way of hiding people and making it appear that they are dead. He offered to do that for him and his mother. Book 6 introduced us to the concept that skilled wizards can cast spells without speaking, is it possible to speak one spell and cast another? That way it look like they performed the killing curse, but instead they are stunned or something of that nature? Admittedly, this one is reaching at straws, but I want to believe he will be back.

Anyway, I can see both sides of the argument. I want Snape to be guilty. I really do. But as I read, my gut feeling was that it was part of a larger plan that Harry was unaware of. My 2 cents. (Or $1.50 this was a long post!)

By the way, anyone else here believe that Harry himself is a Horcrux?


Posts: 29 | Registered: Jun 2004  | Report this post to a Moderator
abby
Member
Member # 2681

 - posted      Profile for abby   Email abby         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Wobbly - yes, I believe he is the last horcrux. I am also afraid it will mean that they will both have to die in the last book. Especially since Rawling said there would be no adult Harry potter books.

As for could he appear to cast one spell, and really cast another, that is an intriguing thought. Though, if he had, would the office have accepted it? Would the portrait of Dubledore as a dead headmaster have appeared? Kinda like I hoped Sirius wasn't really dead, but would find a way back (okay so it looked like a Gandalf in the mines of Moria trick).

As for Snape, I can't help but think he is evil through and through.I don't like bullies at any age, and he is obviously that. Of course, his bullying does succeed in causing harry to do some of the things he does. It also causes Harry to recognize, and relate to the darker emotions he otherwise would have trouble believeing existed.


Posts: 92 | Registered: Jun 2005  | Report this post to a Moderator
Christine
Member
Member # 1646

 - posted      Profile for Christine   Email Christine         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
No, I do not think Harry is the last Horcrux. It doesn't make sense. First of all, I'm pretty sure Voldemort would have had all his horcruxes in place before he began his campaign to take over the wizarding worl. Second, Harry's death turned out very badly for him, so even if he had meant to use the opportunity to make another horcrux, he would not have succeeded.

I also do not believe that Harry will die in the last book, although I think there remains enough doubt to make it particularly suspenseful. There will be no more HP books after these because teh story will be over then whether Harry is dead or alive.

As to the arguments presented for Dumbledore wanting Snape to kill him:

quote:
1. I still trust Dumbledore’s judgment. He has a good reason that we do not know for trusting Snape. I think if Snape were really a bad guy, JK would have shown us the reason and then shown how Snape had deceived Dumbledore about it. (I really wish I knew what it was, but I am sure we will find out in book 7.)

I trusted Snape up until now because I believed that Dumbledore had a good reason for trusting Snape. I'm disappointed that Rowling did not present it during this story, as a matter of fact. But this does not mean that Dumbledore's judgement was good. I think it may be possible that Rowling was trying to show that Dumbledore was only human and can make mistakes. In fact, he became more human in this book than in any other. As to the reason that Dumbledore trusted Snape, well, I'm still waiting for it and it had better be good, but blind faith in Dumbledore is not holding me at this point.

quote:

2. We know that Draco’s task was to kill Dumbledore. Snape made the unbreakable vow that he would help Draco to accomplish it and the penalty for not fulfilling the vow would have been Snape’s death. (Which I would have preferred!) I think Dumbledore believed that the only way of finding all the Horcruxes is to have Snape be a spy to find out that information. I could then see Dumbledore believing that Snape’s life and position in the Death eaters was more valuable than his own life. If they now had to choose between them… He also mentioned to Harry several times about how little his own life was worth compared to Harry’s, so there is a precedent.

Snape hesitated before making that last vow. I think it was truly significant. I also think Snape was not truly on Voldemort's side at that point. The other clue to support this idea is that Dumbledore did not want to give Snape the Dark Art's job for so lonb because he was afraid it would turn him back -- and maybe it did. Either way, while I do believe that Dumbledore would sacrifice himself for the cause, I do not think he thought Snape's job was more important tha nhis life. I don't even know that Snape knows about the horcruxes. I think only Dumbledore and Harry knew. I also think that when Deumbledore was talking to Malfoy, talking him down, that he thought there was a good chance he'd get out alive. He was still confident then as he was not later on. No, the only person I think Dumbledore thought was more important to the Order than himself was Harry.

quote:

3. I think when Hagrid heard Dumbledore and Snape arguing, and saying that Snape had agreed to it and had to go through with it, that it was an argument on Snape needing to be willing to kill Dumbledore if it was required to keep his cover. That sounds like something Dumbledore would do: sacrifice himself for the good of the cause.

Could you give me a page reference on this? I'm not remembering the scene you are talking about.

quote:

4. He may have been dying anyway from the potion he drank. He didn’t ask to be taken to Madam Pomphrey, but he asked to be taken to Snape. The perfect opportunity to fulfill the vow and solidify Snape’s cover in the Death Eaters.

I don't know why he asked to be taken to Snape so vehemently, except that Snape was an excellent potions master -- as the book Harry borrowed all year suggested, he may have been the best. Also, Dumbledore still trusted Snape at that point and had been just as vehement with Harry on other ocassions when Harry called Snape's character into question. He may have been responding to that.

quote:

5. He spend a good part of the book passing on his knowledge to Harry, indicating to me that he may have been planning his own death once Snape had told him he had made the Unbreakable Vow.

I'm not sure Snape told him any such thing. There's no evidence of that. Also, Dumbledore's treatment of Harry completely follows from their conversation at the end of book 5 in which Dumbledore admits that Harry is old enough for certain information. I'm sure Dumbledore always thought his own death was an option, but I'm pretty sure that their lessons throughout the year had nothing to do with a certain death -- I think Dumbledore would have said MORE if that had been the case. No, I think he was starting to groom Harry for the role he knew Harry had to fulfill.

quote:

6. I am not sure that Dumbledore is really dead.

When I reached the point in the book when the phoenix escape from the flames I had a moment's doubt, but I am absolutely positive that Dumbledore is dead. I'm not sure what Rowling meant by releasing the phoenix there -- maybe we'll find out in the seventh book or maybe it was just symbolic of his soul flying off to heaven. Or maybe this is how new phoenixes are born. If Harry is joined by a phoenix next book that decides to be his constant companion, I would not be surprised, but it will not be Dumbledore, not truly. I believe Nearly Headless Nick explained ghosts too well in the fifth book and Dumbledore was adamant about death not being the worst thing that can happen -- it seems ghosts are too terribly afraid to move on properly. That's not our hero.

But I am curious what was meant by the phoenix escaping there. If she doesn't explain it in the seventh book, I think she'll be getting a lot of letter.


Posts: 3567 | Registered: May 2003  | Report this post to a Moderator
WobblyG
Member
Member # 2055

 - posted      Profile for WobblyG   Email WobblyG         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Christine,

All excellent points and unfortunately for both of us, we will have to wait until book 7 to see which of us is correct!

As for Harry being a Horcrux, I think of him as the “Accidental Horcrux”. Voldemort did not have all his Horcruxes in place when he attacked the Potters. Dumbledore said he only made Horcruxes out of significant deaths and went to Godric’s Hollow with the intention of using one of their deaths to make a Horcrux. (I wish I had my copy with me for page numbers, I am doing this at lunch at work!) I think he had planned on using the death of the boy from the prophecy to make a Horcrux not knowing the second half of the prophecy. I don’t know what object he was planning on using for the Horcrux… When the curse rebounded instead of killing Harry and making a Horcrux, it destroyed Voldemort’s body and placed part of his soul into Harry. That is why Harry has the connection to see into Voldemort’s mind, why he is a parselmouth, and why the wand that chose him was the brother of Voldemort’s.

Also, from my reading of the prophecy (before book 6 came out), I had interpreted it to mean that Voldemort couldn’t truly die unless Harry died too. (She made it vague on purpose to frustrate all of us!) That fits with the Harry as a Horcrux theory since as long as Harry lives there is a piece of Voldemort’s soul still alive. Again, it is all speculation, but it’s fun to theorize!


Posts: 29 | Registered: Jun 2004  | Report this post to a Moderator
WobblyG
Member
Member # 2055

 - posted      Profile for WobblyG   Email WobblyG         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
You are right, Abby, his portrait on the wall in the headmaster’s office is pretty convincing evidence, I must admit. I had forgotten about that. I know it is highly unlikely that he will somehow come back, and from a literary point of view, the book will work much better with him dead. I concede the point of Dumbledore really being dead, but this little piece of me keeps wondering about the Phoenix references and hopes that maybe, just maybe, there is somehow more to it.

Pathetic, huh?


Posts: 29 | Registered: Jun 2004  | Report this post to a Moderator
Lullaby Lady
Member
Member # 1840

 - posted      Profile for Lullaby Lady   Email Lullaby Lady         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I go back and forth on Snape and his true position. The argument between Dumbledore and Snape is a clue to something. It was left unexplained, and I have to believe that more will come out about Snape-- whether he truly is on the "dark side" or not-- because I don't believe that JKR has finished telling his story. I read the book through twice, (once myself, and once aloud to the kiddos) and I was able to look more closely into Snape's character the second time through. One more thing NOT in his favor, is that he stunned Flitwick in his office before tearing up to the tower alone.

However, I am sure that Dumbledore has moved on to the next life, because Harry needs to face the last steps all alone. I was sad to see Fawkes leave Hogwarts, as I was hoping that he could be a companion or help to Harry. I was also disappointed that Harry broke up with Ginny, even though he thought he was being noble.

Things I hope are in book seven:
-- I'd like to see Godric's Hollow along with Harry.
-- I hope Aunt Petunia spills all the information she's got. I think she still knows some things that Harry has not yet discovered.
-- I'd like more information about Snape; especially who it is that "loved him," (as Dumbledore said) and if he had feelings for Lily Evans.
-- I'd like more glimpses into "The Marauders," though I'm not holding my breath. They have been some of the most interesting characters in the series for me.
-- I hope the D.A. members step up and join the Order.
-- More Fred and George! Those guys are great tension relievers! ("U-No-Poo" ROFLOL!)

Oh, as a side note, have any of you read the three-part interview with JKR on MuggleNet? ( www.mugglenet.com ) Rowling actually discusses Book Six, and even gives a few hints about what's in store for Harry in Book Seven. I think it's worth reading!

~LL

P.S.-- I don't think that Harry is the last horcrux, because Voldemort was not planning on Harry surviving. Why would he put a piece of his soul in someone and then try to kill them? It doesn't make sense. He was using Harry's death to CREATE the horcrux. I don't think he had enough time or strength after the Avada Kedavra didn't work to make Harry the last horcrux.

[This message has been edited by Lullaby Lady (edited July 25, 2005).]


Posts: 212 | Registered: Dec 2003  | Report this post to a Moderator
rickfisher
Member
Member # 1214

 - posted      Profile for rickfisher   Email rickfisher         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
As for Snape--although I still think Dumbledore was begging him to go through with the plan and kill him, that doesn't mean I think he's really a good guy. He's a jerk. But jerks can fight for the right side, too. If Rowling can manage to present Snape as an actual good guy, whose merely been acting, and BELIEVABLY explain all his actions in that light, that would be the literary feat of the age. But I'm not expecting that. I simply think that, for some reason, he's fighting against Voldemort, and that Dumbledore knew that reason, and we don't. But I have no expectations at all that he's a good person.
Posts: 932 | Registered: Jul 2001  | Report this post to a Moderator
TL 601
Member
Member # 2730

 - posted      Profile for TL 601   Email TL 601         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I think it's simpler than all of that. Dumbledore continually says that Good's greatest power over Evil is the ability to love.

I think he saw the flaws in Snape but also the good, and as an exceptionally caring person, he loved Snape. And that is why he trusted him. Greatest strength, biggest weakness:

The ability to love.

And that is why Dumbledore is dead.


Posts: 237 | Registered: Jul 2005  | Report this post to a Moderator
Miriel
Member
Member # 2719

 - posted      Profile for Miriel   Email Miriel         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I keep waffling on the issue of Snape, but I resolutely refuse to believe that Dumbledore was begging for his own life. Dumbledore? No. He didn't beg Malfoy. Dumbledore doesn't beg, not for himself. If Snape is a bad guy, then I think Dumbledore was pleading for Snape, just as he was trying to convince Malfoy not to kill him, not for his own sake, but for Malfoy's. Dumbledore wants to see Snape happy, on the good side, and how devastating would it be to die knowing that he had just destroyed his own life and returned to evil? Just like an above post says -- Dumbledore emphasizes the ability to love, and I have no doubt that he loved Snape in a brotherly way and wanted the best for him. I guess I'll have to wait and see. There's also another small shred of evidence that Snape might be *sigh* still a good-guy...when Harry calls him a cowards, tells Snape to kill him like he killed his parents...Snape loses it. Gets really, really upset. Bad-guy or not, I think he does feel guilty about that one.
Posts: 189 | Registered: Jul 2005  | Report this post to a Moderator
'Graff
Member
Member # 2648

 - posted      Profile for 'Graff   Email 'Graff         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I read an article at www.mugglenet.com that prposed that Dumbledore was not, in fact, pleading for his own life.

We all read the book; we all now that there were two brooms on that rooftop. Malfoy guessed that Dumbledore had been accompanied by someone--surely Snape, clever as he is, knew immediately that Dumbledore had a partner on his trip.

And Dumbledore, knowing that Snape knew, did not beg for his own life, but for Harry's.

----------
Wellington


Posts: 114 | Registered: Jun 2005  | Report this post to a Moderator
cvgurau
Member
Member # 1345

 - posted      Profile for cvgurau   Email cvgurau         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Wow. I didn't think it would happen.

Surfing a webcomic forum, I found a Harry Potter thread that said Snape killed Dumbledore, and I didn't want to believe it.

Now I'm done with the book, and Dumbledore's dead, and I'm really, really depressed. I want to think he'll come back (the pheonix out of the fire inspires some hope) but I'm not holding my breath. JK Rowling doesn't seem to be of the "real heroes don't die" belief. I don't know if he wanted Snape to kill him or not (I just finished it today for the first time; I'm still digesting it), I just know that I dislike him more than ever. If he is working for Voldemort, I eagerly await his painful comeuppance.

What I want to know is, why is it called HP and the Half-Blood Prince? The HBP was a minor storyline, and a small mystery compared to what Malfoy was up to, which Harry was more concerned about. Yes, I was a little shocked to hear that it was Snape (I gave up hope of his being Dumbledore after the sectumsempra incident, and didn't see it coming), but it was not a big deal, storywise.


Posts: 552 | Registered: Jan 2002  | Report this post to a Moderator
Christine
Member
Member # 1646

 - posted      Profile for Christine   Email Christine         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Well, book five was called "The Order of the Phoenix" but barely introduced that concept. Mostly, book 5 wasn't about them.

SO many here don't believe that Dumbledore would beg for his life? Is he some kind of God? No, he's human, and Rowling spent a good portion of this bok showing us that fact. I like Dumbledore MORE because he begged for his life. And in fact, it doesn't make sense any other way. Aside from the fact that I will throw away every HP book I own and never read the series again if it turned out Dumbledore was begging for Snape to kill him (because that's the cheapest, cheatingest, stupidest thing I've ever heard of), I also have these thoughts to pose:

-Why would Dumbledore have said anything at all if they had prearranged things?
-Why would Dumbledore ask Snape to kill him, when death leaves a stain on one's soul? (even putting aside that he may not have specifically wanted to die)
-What purpose does Snape's life over Dumbledore's serve when Snape is now hated by everyone?
-Which of you (readers) would forgive Snape for this?

The thing you forget is that while Rowling doesn't take death lightly, she also doesn't take killing lightly. I've often wondered why the death eaters don't just throw around endless killing curses while they're battling. I think the reason she would suggest is that killing is a big deal. When she was talking about the formation of the horcruxes, she mentioned the awful stain on the soul that allowed it to shatter into two pieces (or eventually 7). No, it takes serious evil to kill in this world. Harry has not yet killed, and I continue to wonder how he's going to off Lord Voldemort...in the end, he's going to have to kill, even if it is evil he's killing.


Posts: 3567 | Registered: May 2003  | Report this post to a Moderator
mogservant
Member
Member # 1739

 - posted      Profile for mogservant   Email mogservant         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
What makes it hardest for me to take Dumbledore's death at face value is a bit off from the usual perspective. I like Snape. He an interesting character with a cruelty filled past and a struggle to overcome his darker side. I thought James Potter was an ass from the memories we've seen and always had a twinge of pity for Snape. His docking points and mocking Harry I always saw as his small indulgence in light of his commitment to the Order and to protecting Harry. I just have a hard time believing he was "bad" the entire time. In the beginning I wasn't satisfied by his explanations, even if Voldemort was. But there was no turning point either where we can see him switch. I have to believe he's been wholeheartedly one way or the other the whole time and I'm just struggling with the idea of him being on Voldy's side and yet gaining so much trust from Dumbledore. Alas, my penchant for flawed characters may leave me incredibly dissapointed in one of my favorites.

[This message has been edited by mogservant (edited July 28, 2005).]


Posts: 36 | Registered: Sep 2003  | Report this post to a Moderator
tchernabyelo
Member
Member # 2651

 - posted      Profile for tchernabyelo   Email tchernabyelo         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
A Harry Potter ignoramus writes...


I've never read any of the Harry Potter books. I did, not long ago, watch the first Harry Potter film and to say I was less than impressed would be putting it mildly; the plot appeared to make no real sense whatsoever, but then films always have a hard time compared to books, they have much less time and space available; the visual aspect is just about their only advantage.

So, should I actually read the things, or should I continue to ignore them?

I write, incidentally, as one who spent today (and will spent much of the next three days) sitting in the cloisters at Gloucester Cathedral, watching people point out where Harry saw a basilisk and where somebody-or-other was petrified... just thought you'd like to know


Posts: 1469 | Registered: Jun 2005  | Report this post to a Moderator
Christine
Member
Member # 1646

 - posted      Profile for Christine   Email Christine         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Well, let me put it this way. I'm one of the bigger Harry Potter fans I know and I DETEST the movies.

Will you also hate th movies but love the books? Can't say, but isn't it worth a try? I mean, usually when there's smoke there's fire. Not everyone loves them, but so many people do...and the first few don't exactly take a whole lot of time to read. They're short.


Posts: 3567 | Registered: May 2003  | Report this post to a Moderator
Christine
Member
Member # 1646

 - posted      Profile for Christine   Email Christine         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Let me just clarify something...I didn't dislike the movies because they paled in comparison to the books. I hated them for the following reason:

1. Mediocre acting (mostly on the part of the children...Snape, for example, did a very good job, as did Dumbledore...but the kids make up a majority of the acting time so)

2. Disjointed, incohrent plot that did not make much sense when taken alone. Even reading the book and having the details in my memory to fill in, this irked me big time.

3. Almost no characterization. Harry came off like a punk kid when he's supposed to be a bit scared in the first book/movie. Plus, I felt very little from any other characters. This did not just pale in comparison to the book, in which characters like the twins were hilarious and well done, it BOMBED. Neville made no sense, especially at the end. No, very bad characterization.


Posts: 3567 | Registered: May 2003  | Report this post to a Moderator
NewsBys
Member
Member # 1950

 - posted      Profile for NewsBys   Email NewsBys         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I agree with mogservant. I like Snape. It's hard to believe he is all evil.
As a teacher, I encounter kids that try my patience, I even encounter kids who's parents seriously try my patience.
Still, I'm a teacher. I'm there to protect and educate. I'm dedicated to that principle.
I've always thought Snape had the same attitude. He didn't like James, so does not like Harry, but he protects him and others when they are in danger.
(FYI - I understand, but don't agree with his meanness to Harry. I always find something to like in each kid.)

As soon as I read the second chapter I thought it was a clumsy set-up to either make Snape look really bad, or to convince us that he has been bad all along. It was more an explanation to us then to Bellainia and Narcissa. It was obviously an "as you know ..." info dump.


Posts: 579 | Registered: Mar 2004  | Report this post to a Moderator
Christine
Member
Member # 1646

 - posted      Profile for Christine   Email Christine         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I've always hated Snape, for the same reasons that you said you liked him, NewBys. He has not done much to either protect or educate Harry. Yes, he apparently saved Harry's life in the first book. But that's been the end of it. His dislike of Harry has made him into a terrible teacher, incapable of teaching Harry the simplest things. Everything he's learned about potions he's learned on his own or in sixth year, when hef inally got a competent teacher. In the OWL exam, he commented that he could actually seem to make the potion without Snape breathing down his neck. In the fourth book, Snape holds up Harry from trying to tell Dumbledore about Crouch in the forest -- thereby doing the opposite of protecting him. "What's this rubbish, Harry?" He enjoyed seeing him suffer and knew, obviously, if he's an occlumens, that Harry needed desperately to see the headmaster. If he's in Dumbledore's inner circle, he might have suspected why. He's tried a million times to get Harry expelled when he should have known that Harry needed an education more than anyone else to go up against Harry (or maybe only Dubledore knew that...but it certainly means he didn't want to teach.) In the occlumency lessons in book 5, he did very little to actually help Harry learn. Granted, Harry also didn't try very hard, but Snape did not give him the kind of education he needed and even Dumbledore admitted that heprobably should have taught him himself.

No, Snape has done nothing to demonstrate that he wants to educate Harry and very little to show he wants to protect him. I'd even be willing to believe that he saved his life once -- and just the once -- because he felt he owed James some kind of debt and then could go back to hating him in peace.

But I will agree that chapter 2 was a clumsy "as you know, Bob" setup. I hated it when I read it but the book picked up after that so I disregarded it.


Posts: 3567 | Registered: May 2003  | Report this post to a Moderator
autumnmuse
Member
Member # 2136

 - posted      Profile for autumnmuse   Email autumnmuse         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
As far as how Harry will defeat Voldy at the end is concerned, I firmly believe that love will have a major factor. Somehow. In order to stay on the good side, Harry cannot fight evil with evil, and Dumbledore was very clear on the point that sacrificial love is what saved Harry in the first place. Which is why I don't think he should have broken up with Ginny. I mean, of course Voldemart will come after her if they are together, but V would also come after Ron and Hermione and I didn't hear Harry making a big deal about that. It was very Spiderman-ish, and I hope he realizes (or Ginny knocks some sense into him) in book seven how much he needs her love to get through things. Perhaps the only way to kill Voldemort is for Harry to sacrificially give his life to save her and his friends. Just a thought. And sometimes, once that decision is made, something happens that makes you not have to go through with the sacrifice. The intent is sufficient.

As far as the Harry-Horcrux thing goes, I cannot take credit for the following, someone on Codex suggested it but I think it works: why not have the Horcrux be Harry's scar? It throbs etcetera whenever V is near or thinking about him. That would indicate that part of Harry's bond with V is from the scar. Ergo the horcrux. I agree that it would have to be accidental; I don't think V would have put the Horcrux there on purpose, but maybe JK will explain how it happened. That way, too, allows for Harry to live at the end, after his scar is removed or whatever.


Posts: 818 | Registered: Aug 2004  | Report this post to a Moderator
cvgurau
Member
Member # 1345

 - posted      Profile for cvgurau   Email cvgurau         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Truth be told, I envy you a bit. You haven't had to wait for each new installment.

I first learned of Harry Potter from a cousin, who described it as "a story about a kid wizard who learns magic and fights evil and stuff"...or something similar.

Now, I don't hate the movies (great special effects, decent actors--Daniel Radcliffe is at his best in PoA, I think, though it has been a while since I've seen it...or any, in fact), but they simply don't compare to the books. I suggest you try at least the first one, if only to see what the fuss is about.

About Snape/Dumbledore...I had something to say, but I botched submitting, had to hit Back, and lost it. Something along the lines of "I hope Dumbledore's reason for trusting Snape is something more substantial than his apparent remorse for having lead to Lily and James' murder (more Lily's than James', I'd imagine), because Snape has never seemed a particularly remorseful man. I'd be awfully disappointed if this was all the thought JK Rowling had put into it, and if she left it at that."

I've been wracking my brains, but it seems it was a one-time epiphany. Rats.

I don't know if it was here or elsewhere that I heard the "Snape loved Lily" theory, but I think its true. I never gave it much thought, but looking back, I realize that for all his insults about James' arrogance and superiority, he never had a bad word to say about Lily. He never had a good word, either, but I imagine that if he did, it wouldn't have been within earshot of the Boy Who Lived.


Posts: 552 | Registered: Jan 2002  | Report this post to a Moderator
Gwalchmai
Member
Member # 1807

 - posted      Profile for Gwalchmai   Email Gwalchmai         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
My take on the Snape killing Dumbloedore thing is that Snape is going to prove somehow integral to Harry's defeating Voldemort at the end of book seven and that Dumbledore knew this. In my mind the scene with Snape swearing the unbreakable oath was put there so that we would know he had no choice but to kill Dumbledore at the end, and it wasn't entirely his fault since I believe he swore the oath so as not to blow his cover. Dumbledore knew that it was likely Snape would be put in this position and at the end was possibly begging Snape to go through with it and not to try to go against the vow so he could be there at the end to do whatever it is he has to do.

I'm not convinced about the Harry being a horcrux theory. Seems a bit unlikely to me and didn't the prophecy say something about one not being able to live while the other survived, implying that one will live at the end?

As to the rest of the book, I wasn't too impressed. No real reason except that they've begun to wear a little thin now they're becoming longer and longer.


Posts: 156 | Registered: Nov 2003  | Report this post to a Moderator
Lullaby Lady
Member
Member # 1840

 - posted      Profile for Lullaby Lady   Email Lullaby Lady         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
My favorite part about Book Seven is how much Harry's character has developed. Many have mentioned they hated Book Five, and I believe that none of us enjoyed going through Harry's angst and frustration with him. (I wish that Umbridge woman would get what she's got coming!!! )

Anyway, many of the characters have changed and grown so much. It's a pleasure to me to see how calm and capable Harry has become. When I look at all the books in the series and get a big picture of the character archs, I am inspired. JKR does a wonderful job, IMHO, of creating people we really love (or hate) and believe in. I cried when I realized that Dumbledore would be the one to go. His insistance that Harry promise to obey him at all costs jolted me. I KNEW he would be stepping aside and allowing Harry to become a hero in his own right. (I sobbed both times I read the scene when H. had to keep feeding D. the potion... )

I know I'm rambling, but I just wanted to share my feelings of satisfaction with the series. JKR has created a world that I literally cherish. There aren't too many authors I can honestly say that about. I know some here find her writing mediocre, and I'm certainly not a great expert on the matter myself, but I am inspired any time I sit and crack open one of her novels. And no one can deny her real influence on the world and society as a whole.

If you have not read her works, I encourage you to set aside some time, and read through them. I resisted reading the series for years, but once I gave in, I devoured them all (then up to Book 4) in about three days. I have read them many times since, and they continue to delight my family and myself. It will not be time wasted!

(Okay, unpaid testimonial now over... )

~LL


Posts: 212 | Registered: Dec 2003  | Report this post to a Moderator
NewsBys
Member
Member # 1950

 - posted      Profile for NewsBys   Email NewsBys         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
What if Snape and Dumbledore changed places via Polyjuice potion. So really Snape died. Hmmmm.
Posts: 579 | Registered: Mar 2004  | Report this post to a Moderator
Jeraliey
Member
Member # 2147

 - posted      Profile for Jeraliey   Email Jeraliey         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
-I sincerely hope Dumbledore was indeed pleading for his life, and I think it's the case. Rowling obviously has a penchant for making the deaths she chooses to highlight as tragic as possible. Also, it deepened my love for the character, who proved himself to be ultimately and heart-wrenchingly human. On the other hand, both Sirius's and Dumbledore's deaths were ambigious, and that frustrates the heck out of me. I will be quite upset if either one of them comes back. I guess that makes me heartless, but I guess I can live with that. I also want him to have mistakenly trusted Snape. Yay, fallible heros!!!

-I guess this is contradictory, but I want Snape to still be a "good" guy. I don't think that "the POV character hated him from minute one" or "he's a jerk to Harry" are good enough reasons to believe that he's ultimately evil. He is human, and people hold grudges against people who did them wrong. I hate black-and-white characters, and Snape has enough ambiguity (still!) to be one of the most interesting and intriguing characters.

-Something that bugged me: it always seemed to me that the portraits in the office acted exactly like their objects would have if they had been standing behind a window. There is no precedent for making Harry unable to have a deep conversation with Dumbledore's painting about all of the information he was lacking, and unable to gain solace from the painting's advice and reassurances. I know it's not ACTUALLY Dumbledore himself, but there's little to imply that it doesn't retain a significant enough part of him. If I were Harry, the first thing I would do is wake up Dumbledore's portrait and talk to him a while until I felt better.

-I also thought that James was a bit of a prat, but honestly, that made me love him even more. He was a handsome, popular kid showing off for a pretty girl. How many wonderful adults that you know did stuff as kids that they're not proud of? I'd hazard to say a whole lot. It made James less of an idol and more of a character to me. I also think that a large part of growing up is discovering that your parents are human, after all. This was a really good way to desanctify James, and I was really impressed.

-I loved the angst. I'm sorry, but I'm sick of good guys always being confident and admirable. That woman writes teenagers like nobody's business, if you ask me. That said, #5 didn't impress me. At all.

-All in all, the stories are beautifully crafted, even if the writing itself is artless. I very much look forward to the seventh book, and am cautiously confident that I will not be disappointed.

-I love the ideas that are being tossed around here. How much fun!

[This message has been edited by Jeraliey (edited July 31, 2005).]


Posts: 1041 | Registered: Aug 2004  | Report this post to a Moderator
Jaina
Member
Member # 2387

 - posted      Profile for Jaina   Email Jaina         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Am I the only one who got hung up on when Harry said that he wasn't going back to Hogwarts after the summer was over?

Well, let me explain. I believe that Harry thinks he isn't going back to Hogwarts, and will probably continue to think so until the end of the summer, or even a little bit into the term. Until he realizes just how important being fully trained is when going up against someone like Voldemort. Even if there is no official Hogwarts for some reason (I can see the school falling apart in the face of Dumbledore's death on top of all the other problems facing the wizarding world), he's still going to need more training. No matter how much love he's got on his side--and I'm not saying that love isn't a powerful ally, because it is--he's got to have a lot of skills or Voldemort, who's been up against this kid plenty of times and has had as much opportunity to study him as he has to study Voldemort, is going to tear him to shreds.

Just for something else to chew on for a while.


Posts: 437 | Registered: Feb 2005  | Report this post to a Moderator
yanos
Member
Member # 1831

 - posted      Profile for yanos   Email yanos         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Well I think the current theory is that one of the horcrux is at Hogwarts so he has to go back.
Posts: 575 | Registered: Dec 2003  | Report this post to a Moderator
TheoPhileo
Member
Member # 1914

 - posted      Profile for TheoPhileo   Email TheoPhileo         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
So no speculation about RAB here yet?

*insert innocent whistling*
Upon cleaning the Grimmauld house:
"There was musical box that emitted a faintly sinister, tinkling tune when wound, and they all found themselves becoming curiously weak and sleepy until Ginny had the sense to slam the lid shut; also a heavy locket that none of them could open, a number of ancient seals, and an Order of Merlin..." (Order of the Phoenix, p 116)
My theory RAB = Regulus Black

[This message has been edited by TheoPhileo (edited August 01, 2005).]


Posts: 292 | Registered: Feb 2004  | Report this post to a Moderator
Kathleen Dalton Woodbury
Administrator
Member # 59

 - posted      Profile for Kathleen Dalton Woodbury   Email Kathleen Dalton Woodbury         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I think Harry's going to need to learn Occlumency from someone, unless he figures out how to use his lack of skill with it to trick Voldemort <shrug>. Whether he learns at Hogwarts or not is another question, though. He'll be of age in the seventh book, after all.

TheoPhileo, that's my theory, too, about RAB. If Regulus is RAB, and if he was able to find more of the horcruxes, they're probably all in Kreacher's cache.


Posts: 8644 | Registered: A Long Time Ago!  | Report this post to a Moderator
Christine
Member
Member # 1646

 - posted      Profile for Christine   Email Christine         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The thing about whether or not Harry will actually go back to Hogwarts or not is that it's all speculation. I'm curious, yes, but in the end there's no real way for sure to know which is right. On the one hand, you have the arguments that he's not done learning yet. He's still got to learn mor more stuff. On the other hand, you've got one book in which he has to find and destroy four horcruxes, confront Snape, and kill Lord Voldemort. If he's also taking classes he can't do that. First of all, his missions will take him away from the school grounds and he can't wait for a hogsmead weekend to do it.

Actually, I'm heavily leaning towards him NOT going back to school next year. I think she's been setting that up all along with the idea that 17, not 18, is adult age in the wizarding world. And frankly, I don't think there's anything else that hogwarts can teach him. They never specifically taught occlumency there. As to nonverbal spells, Hermoine can coach him. Plus, he was getting the hang of it by the end of the book.

For some reason, though, I couldn't care less who RAB is. As near sa I can tell, Regular Black is the only one whose initials even potentially fit it -- assuming the person isn't going with a Lord Voldemort-style nickname. So it's either him or someone new, either way, it's not all that interesting (to me) to speculate.


Posts: 3567 | Registered: May 2003  | Report this post to a Moderator
Exile
Member
Member # 2575

 - posted      Profile for Exile   Email Exile         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
My Horcrux Theories

I think the Harry-as-Horcrux theory has merit. After all, Dumbledore did say that he believed Voldemort had achieved seven Horcruxes, and also told us that Harry's death was to be the means for the last. How many times have we heard the bit about Voldemort putting something of himself inside of Harry that night? Perhaps accidentally making Harry a Horcrux?

I don't know about the scar-as-Horcrux theory. I mean, I know Jo has said that the last word of the series (currently) is "scar", but I think that Harry won't survive the next book. He's already escaped fatal situations far too often...one of these times, it's gonna catch up to him. And it would be a definite seal of finality to the series. Hard to write another Harry Potter book when there's no more Harry Potter, eh? (I do bet Ron and Hermione go on together, though.)

As for the exact wording of the prophecy, I don't think we should set too much store by that. While it does say, "Neither can live while the other survives", it doesn't say, "One of them is definitely going to stay alive".

I think Harry's a goner.


Posts: 12 | Registered: May 2005  | Report this post to a Moderator
'Graff
Member
Member # 2648

 - posted      Profile for 'Graff   Email 'Graff         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I pick up my theories as I visit www.mugglenet.com, so that is where the one I currently ascribe to is from. If Dumbledore, the greatest wizard of the age, required someone to force-feed him the potion that guarded the locket, wouldn't it be needful of RAB to have someone do the same?

Didn't Rowling state explicitly (through Dumbledore) that the boat that took it's charge across the lake could take only one full-grown wizard. Therefore, the force-feeder must have been a younger age wizard.

Or perhaps not. What has been clear throughout the books is that the wizarding world is chock full of racism of one brand or another. Would a spell preventing two full-grown wizards have prevented a wizard and a house elf? No. Wouldn't a house elf perform the exact duties it was told to? What if Kreacher had been told to drink the potion? What if creature had then been told (by Regulus, of course) to hold on to every single item? Hmmm.... Wouldn't Kreacher have a stash somewhere?

I wonder.

----------
Wellington


Posts: 114 | Registered: Jun 2005  | Report this post to a Moderator
narcisus
New Member
Member # 2771

 - posted      Profile for narcisus           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The book was definitely preparation for the last book. very enlightening.... but i agree with one of the comments, it has flaws and a bit passive also inconsistent to other books like Hermione suddenly being mediocre to pave to Harry’s new found keenness.. To sum it up, though, still acceptable. but i would just like to share my view regarding snape... there are evidences that support what he did was dumblebore's bidding. there are: hagrid overheard snape and AB arguing about snape being over worked and didn’t want to do something anymore. my view here, he didn't want to kill him even should the circumstance ask for it; the hatred on Snape's face when he was about to kill because he didn't want to do it; Dumbledore to beg? Not so likely he’s not even afraid to die… my interpretation, he was begging to Snape do it; Snape has knowledge of AB's quests for horcruxes for he helped him to counter the curse when he dealt with the ring. Snape was still teaching harry to do nonverbal and close his mind, though not in a nice manner, but still inspite of the situation, when he was about to escape. i still believe he just did what AB told him to do should the situation ask for it to save Draco, himself and help Harry to be a better person as well as to make Harry realized his final task. About the R.A.B, its probably regulus black


Posts: 3 | Registered: Aug 2005  | Report this post to a Moderator
narcisus
New Member
Member # 2771

 - posted      Profile for narcisus           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
sometimes we are blinded by our biases. i am not under to any illussion that Snape must be a good guy but i'm adamant to believe that he did what he had to do.. he was also the one who informed Dumbledore that the Dark Lord after the Potters, He cured Dumbledore with his injuries from the horcuxed ring. again, the argument that hagrid overheard was about the plan that must be carried on should the dire situation ask for it to save malfoy, just like what Dumbledore said to Draco " it's my mercy that matters now " Another thing, when Harry was arguing with Dumbledore about Snape, Dumbledore paused and considered to say something but thought better of it. wonder what that was, guys. and JK has been working so hard to convince or confuse us Snape is "good", that we have been doubting all the time, meaning we're not convinced. she's not going to justify that doubt, would she? JK is a prolific writer. she wants us to hate snape on this book only to appreciate him on the last....
Posts: 3 | Registered: Aug 2005  | Report this post to a Moderator
Aaron Johnston
Member
Member # 2728

 - posted      Profile for Aaron Johnston   Email Aaron Johnston         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I'm throwing in my vote: Snape is good.

Wobbly gives some great reasons above, many of which I had already considered and the biggest being . . .

1. the argument Hagrid overheard between Snape and Dumbledore.

I think Snape told Dumbledore about the unbreakable vow, and since Dumbledore KNEW what Draco was up to (ie. trying to kill him), Dumbledore KNEW that either he or Snape would have to die.

And Dumbledore, being the heroic character he is, thought that Snape, acting as an agent of Voldemort, would be a greater help to Harry than he Dumbledore would be as an outsider; Snape could possibly find out what and where the other horcruxes are located.

So when Dumbledore was pleading on the tower it was for Snape to keep the promise between them and to kill Dumbledore.

Some have said that if Snape is indeed good after all, then Rowling is a cheat. Not so, says I, because she has masterfully planted sublte seeds to this theory. Otherwise we wouldn't be having this debate.

And . . .

2. Dumbledore told Harry he had a hard-iron reason for trusting Snape. We don't know what that reason is but it must have been convincing enough for Dumbledore to stake his life on it.

And my purely speculative theory on THAT is . . .

Snape loves Lilly
Snape has always loved Lilly, Harry's mother. If you recall, Lilly was a master at potions, like Snape, and always defended Snape in the memories in which James and Sirius teased Snape.

So Snape was always in love with her. And when he realized that his telling the prophecy to Voldemort resulted in Lilly's death, he was consumed with guilt and THEN became determined to stop Voldemort. Dumbledore knows all of this, of course.

And if my memory serves me right, Snape has never made a negative comment about Lilly, only James, whom he would naturally loathe because James won Lilly's heart.

3. Snape did not harm Harry after Dumbledore's death on the grounds. In fact, he stopped the pain Harry was receiving from one of the other Death Eaters.

Yes, he said the Dark Lord wanted Harry for himself, but that was just a tactic to protect Harry in the moment.

And when Harry was defenseless and Snape was over him, the text says that he looked as if he were in great pain, which, I believe was the pain of having just killed Dumbledore and not of having been called a coward.

But I could be very very wrong.

Other Theories
Some of my other (mostly baseless) theories for Book 7:

  • Lupin will kill Fenrir Greyback.
  • Snape (if he is indeed good) will teach Harry Occlumency to prepare him for his showdown with Voldemort.
  • Draco will redeem himself and assist Harry somehow. He's seen in this book how evil Voldemort is and has proven himself as not the killing type.
  • Fawkes will return to somehow assist Harry.
  • Harry and Ginny will hook up at the conclusion.

Theories I don't agree with:

  • Harry is a horcrux. This won't work. Harry would have to die first before Voldemort is mortal and therefore killable. And who would kill Voldemort then?
  • Harry's scar is a horcrux. Interesting, but I don't buy it. If this were even a suspicion, Dumbledore would have considered it.

OK. Now I'll stop.

[This message has been edited by Aaron Johnston (edited August 07, 2005).]

[This message has been edited by Aaron Johnston (edited August 09, 2005).]


Posts: 12 | Registered: Jul 2005  | Report this post to a Moderator
Christine
Member
Member # 1646

 - posted      Profile for Christine   Email Christine         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
it has flaws and a bit passive also inconsistent to other books like Hermione suddenly being mediocre to pave to Harry’s new found keenness..

Er...WHAT? I'm pretty sure Hermoine was just as clever as usual and Harry just as average or slightly above average as usual.

SNAPE IS EVIL

Ok, I'm going to remain in the minority here, quite obviously. It seems the majority of you will need to be proven wrong in the last book when it finally comes around. I've really heard no convincing evidence that counters the fact that Snape KILLED DUMBLEDORE. Dumbledore wasn't afraid to die? Bull crap. He was human. He just knew that there were worse fates and that death was part of the natural order of things.

I remain adamant in my belief. In fact, I remain adamant that I will chuck the whole series in the fire if Snape comes up good next time because I'll consider it cheating.


Posts: 3567 | Registered: May 2003  | Report this post to a Moderator
rickfisher
Member
Member # 1214

 - posted      Profile for rickfisher   Email rickfisher         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
I will chuck the whole series in the fire if Snape comes up good
I think I might agree with you on this. But the thing is, he doesn't have to be good for him to be working on the right side. I'll never believe that he was such a good actor that he could seem so despicable all this time. But I could easily believe that, for some other reason, he is absolutely committed to seeing Voldemort finished.

Posts: 932 | Registered: Jul 2001  | Report this post to a Moderator
Miriel
Member
Member # 2719

 - posted      Profile for Miriel   Email Miriel         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I agree. However much I want Snape to be evil and to die a horrible, horrible death...I don't think he is really truely hard-core evil. I think he's a petty kind of evil, like Malfoy. They're bullies. Bullies and jerks. But that doesn't necessarily mean that they support Voldemort and want him to win. I don't think Malfoy has any love for Voldemort -- none at all. His life would be a lot better if Voldemort was dead. I think Snape's similar.
Posts: 189 | Registered: Jul 2005  | Report this post to a Moderator
Aaron Johnston
Member
Member # 2728

 - posted      Profile for Aaron Johnston   Email Aaron Johnston         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
rickfisher is right: Snape will never be good in the sense that Harry is good. But I do think that he is on the right side.

These aren't one dimensional characters, which is why Rowling is such a master at what she does. These are complex individuals, each with their own motivations and goals.

To state that Snape is evil simply because he killed Dumbledore, at the surface, seems like a reasonable conclusion. But what if there were other things at work that we don't know about yet? What if Snape was doing precisely what Dumbledore had asked him to do?

quote:
I will chuck the whole series in the fire if Snape comes up good next time because I'll consider it cheating.

It would be most unfortunate if you burned all the HP books simply for this reason. If Snape does indeed turn out to be working on the right side (a fact that none of us can be sure of until Book Seven), then Rowling has not cheated. She has planted plenty of subtle seeds along the way that support this theory. Otherwise we would not be having this debate.

In any case, Snape good or bad, I put trust in Rowling that she'll still spin a good yarn and make book seven, like all previous books, a read I don't want to miss.


Posts: 12 | Registered: Jul 2005  | Report this post to a Moderator
Christine
Member
Member # 1646

 - posted      Profile for Christine   Email Christine         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Actually, part of my problem is that, for one reason or another, I refute and whole-heartedly disagree with any such seeds having been planted. I've heard what people think are seeds, but I don't see it.
Posts: 3567 | Registered: May 2003  | Report this post to a Moderator
Aaron Johnston
Member
Member # 2728

 - posted      Profile for Aaron Johnston   Email Aaron Johnston         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Fair enough, Christine. And in that case, you would have every right to be ticked off if Snape does indeed prove to be on right side.

Nothing is more infuriating than unjustified and ill-explained character shifts.


Posts: 12 | Registered: Jul 2005  | Report this post to a Moderator
pixydust
Member
Member # 2311

 - posted      Profile for pixydust   Email pixydust         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I think I've figured out why this book's plot was so weak. It was all just set up for book seven. Now if you want to talk about cheating--that's cheating.

Well Christine, I think you may be chucking the books in the fire. In reading all the books up to this point I have discovered a pattern JKR has with her characters. She likes to show several sides of them--good and bad--and draw our opinion on this and then WHAP! slap us with a fish in the face (The whole book four scenario revisited. And let's not forget the Mad-eye-Moodie slip). It's like she keeps saying, "Got ya!"

This is why I think Snape is "good". She's shown us too many reasons for him to be on the side of good while at the same time giving us a character to loathe. IE: Lily, saving Harry, letting us see his side in book five (which BTW made me despise Harry's dad), and all the above mentioned by others. At the same time she's made him piss us off to no end, but really he's never shown himself to be "evil". It's all a set up for the same old "slip".

Now here's a whopper for ya: I think it would be cheating for the answer to be anything else. Snape has never been wholly bad or "evil". Just annoying. And wouldn't it be a better message to have the last book be about love and forgiveness--as Dumbledore is always talking about like a broken record--then murder and revenge?

These are just my thoughts. On the whole I think this book was a ghost of what it could or should have been and was wholly disappointed. Too much was left to guess at--something I loathe in an author--and it wasn't a complete story in itself--something which all her other books have been.

I'm also beginning to despise the way she kills off all the good characters. She best redeem herself by redeeming someone in the last installment or *I'm* chuckin' it all in the fire.


Posts: 811 | Registered: Jan 2005  | Report this post to a Moderator
Christine
Member
Member # 1646

 - posted      Profile for Christine   Email Christine         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
All right. Putting all these "clues" or "seeds" behind us, putting these potential twisted motivations behind us, I have one question for all of you that sums it all up to me:

Did you even care that Snape killed Dumbledore?

Let me paint the death scene for you one more time:

Snape comes in...the death eaters who had been trying to get Malfoy to kill Dumbledore tell him they have a problem, that the boy won't do it and then...

quote:

But somebody else had spoken Snape's name, quite softly.

"Severus..."

The sound frightened Harry beyond anything he had experienced all evening. For the first time, Dumbledore was pleading.

Snape said nothing, but walked forward and pushed Malfoy roughly out of the way. The three Death Eaters fell back without a word. Even the werwolf seemed cowed.

Snape gazed for a moment at Dumbledore, and there was revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face.

"Severus...please..."

Severus raised the wand and pointed it directly at Dumbledore."


First of all, for those who suggested that Dumbledore may not have been pleading...it was right there. Harry heard it and it frightened him. Pleading for Snape to kill him? I don't think so. It doesn't follow from this scene. Whatever came before, THIS scene was a terrible and cruel lie if that is the case. Snape looked at Dumbledore with hatred! Hatred because Dumbledore asked him to do this terrible thing? It's just too convoluted to see that way. Pleading because he wanted Snape to kill him? Convoluted. And deliberately deceitful.

I didn't give a rat's ass about Serius dying in the end of the fifth book, but this death, this scene, was powerfully emotional for me. Dumbledore was the hero up until book six, which was why I knew he had to die (to make room for Harry), but still, she couldn't have done it better to evoke true emotion from me. Dumbledore standing there, falling in a fight, proud and unafraid as ever, wouldn't have done it for me. Dumbledore, ehlpless, afraid to die even if he did accept death as a lesser evil and the next great step...for the first time, he became more than a hero...he became human. It makes him more of a hero to me, because how easy is it to be a hero when you're afraid of nothing? When nothing can stop you? When you have no weaknesses, not even the fear that you might die? I find those heroes, larger than life though they may be, remotely boring, Perhaps that's why I like Smallville better than I liked Superman...in Smallvill Clark Kent is at least emotionally vulnerable, if not physically. But Rowling did not do that for Dumbledore. She kept him distant, aloof, but in the end she showed us that underneath it all he was a person, scared, in the end, to die.

I got all of that out of those few lines above, and as far as I'm concerned, it's a less convoluted and far more powerful message than anything about who's side is who on. I'd prefer to think Snape made that clear.

And if you want patterns: here's one for you. Rowling has never carried over a mystery between books. She's given us a little more information about the world, the situation, Harry himself, and Harry's parents in each book. We get a little more history and background in each book. But the mystery she sets up is answered in the end and then it's answered. The mystery in this book was what side was Snape on?


Posts: 3567 | Registered: May 2003  | Report this post to a Moderator
Ray
Member
Member # 2415

 - posted      Profile for Ray   Email Ray         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
My vote: Snape is evil. But I don't think he's on Voldemort's side. I think Snape looks after Snape.

Dumbledore's reason for trusting Snape is probably because Snape had an excellent reason not to be on Voldemort's side, but in reality, he looks after himself.

He claims himself the "Half-Blood Prince" becasue he thinks highly of himself. Just a random theory, he plays both sides, and keeps himself truly independent.

Too bad I have to wait for book 7 to find out.


Posts: 329 | Registered: Mar 2005  | Report this post to a Moderator
Aaron Johnston
Member
Member # 2728

 - posted      Profile for Aaron Johnston   Email Aaron Johnston         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Did you even care that Snape killed Dumbledore?

Christine, this is a silly question. Snape's motivations, be they evil or justly founded have nothing to do with my feelings for Dumbledore. Of course, I care that Snape killed Dumbledore. It affected me profoundly.

I don't think anyone is trying to CONVINCE you that Snape is on Dumdledore's side. We're merely giving our opinion of the text.

The passage you site can be interrupted more than one way. No one is suggesting that Dumbledore was NOT pleading. The question is: What was he pleading for? Or, why was he pleading?

I ask myself, would the scene have happened the same way if Death Eaters were not present? Would Snape have looked so full of hate if he didn't have an audience, if he and Dumdledore were alone? In other words, was he putting on a face, an act? And was Dumbledore doing the same?

Those of us who think Snape is still on the right side answer yes.

We all believe that Dumbledore and Snape were preserving Snape's place as a double agent. If you've ever watched Alias, you've seen this tactic before: one of the good guys is pretending to be a bad guy and is forced to off one of the good guys because the bad guys are watching. I can think of three separate episodes in which this device was used. (Yes, I'm an Alias fanatic.)

And we must remember the rules of Point of View. The scene was given to us by Harry. We were inside his head, not Snape's and not Dumbledore's. We know the scene only as Harry interpreted it.

But, be Snape evil or good, let's all agree on one thing: we won't know the answers until Book Seven. And in the meantime, let's not argue. We're all entitled to our opinions. You may, in fact, be completely accurate, and if that's the case, I will respect Rowling no less. A good mystery writer keeps her audience guessing. That's what all of us are doing, guessing.

And the reason why we guess is because we enjoy trying to figure out where Rowling is headed. If Snape is as blatantly evil as you think, I hope Rowling will explain why she introduced:

  • the argument overheard
  • the unbreakable vow
  • Dumbledore's unquestioning trust of Snape

Book Seven will reveal all. Until then it's all speculation and personal interpretation, all given in good fun and with no intent to hurt anyone's feelings.


Posts: 12 | Registered: Jul 2005  | Report this post to a Moderator
Lullaby Lady
Member
Member # 1840

 - posted      Profile for Lullaby Lady   Email Lullaby Lady         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Christine,

I also believe that Dumbledore was afraid to die, not because he feared the unknown, but because he knew he would be leaving the fate of the wizarding world to Harry alone.

Voldemort's biggest weakness-- okay, second biggest, behind his inability to love-- is his FEAR of death. He has done the unthinkable by creating horcruxes to avoid this terror.

I am not afraid to die. I have a peace about what I will find "on the other side," BUT I don't WANT to die because I want to raise my children. I don't want them to face life without a mother who loves them. I need to be here for them.

I propose that Dumbledore's pleading and sorrow at dying stemmed from the fact that he would be moving on, unable to help Harry and the Order. I also think that he was willing to do almost anything in order to keep Draco from mutilating his soul by committing murder. If Snape had not stepped forward and done the killing, Draco could not have withstood the pressure from the other Death Eaters. He either would have killed D., or been killed by Voldemort.

D. valued V's defeat above all things. He knew that he was not the man to finish it. He held his own life as disposable in order for the cause to move forward. Snape's look of hatred, IMHO, was the loathing he felt for himself at his ability to do something so monstrous as killing the best wizard of the age. Not to mention the only wizard who really believed in him and supported him when everyone else loathed him. (We see at the end how many of the Order really liked Snape for his own merits.)

My only dread at reading Book Seven, is that the series will be over, and THEN what series will I have to look forward to?! (Not much modern writing out there that grabs me these days. KWIM?)

~LL


Posts: 212 | Registered: Dec 2003  | Report this post to a Moderator
  This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2   

Quick Reply
Message:

HTML is not enabled.
UBB Code is enabled.
UBB Code™ Images not permitted.
Instant Graemlins
   


Post New Topic  Post A Reply Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Contact Us | Hatrack River Home Page

Copyright © 2008 Hatrack River Enterprises Inc. All rights reserved.
Reproduction in whole or in part without permission is prohibited.


Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classic™ 6.7.2