posted
The problem with this end scene and the whole question of whether or not Snape is on the side of good or evil, is that we see everything through Harry's POV and Harry is heavily biased against Snape. Yes, Harry might be firghtened because he hears Dumbledore pleading, but because of how he views both characters he will immediately assume Dumbledore is pleading for his life and not stop to think of any other reason why Dumbledore might be behhaving like this. Part of this is down to ignorance of what Dumbledore knows but a lot is down to his own prejudices.
EDIT: Wanted to add this last night but I was in the process of being kicked off the computer.
Because of what I was saying above about bias, I think it is quite possible we will be having this same argument after reading the seventh book. I have an idea Rowling might kill Snape off as he helps Harry out, or write him helping but not necessarily dying, in such a way that Harry still believes Snape was trying to help out Voldemort rather than work against him. It would then be up to each individual reader to make their own minds up as to which side Snape was working for all the way through.
[This message has been edited by Gwalchmai (edited August 09, 2005).]
posted
I think that if Snape were evil, he would have killed Flitwick, instead of disabling him.
And I believe the most important thing to keep in mind is that we can only see the story from Harry's POV, like Aaron and Gwalchamai said. That is the key.
I do agree with Christine, though, in that I think that Dumbledore's character would be far richer if he was indeed pleading for his life. I guess I feel cheated because I don't think that's the case, and really wish it were. Oh well. I guess I can appreciate it for the idea, even if it wasn't Rowling's intent.
posted
I don't think that Snape is evil. I think that he had to kill Dumbledore to keep his cover. (A cover that will be important when Harry is fighting Voldemort.) I remember Hagrid talking about an argument between Snape and Dumbledore where Dumbledore told Snape that he had to do it. The "It" I think was the killing. And he couldn't let Malfoy do it because Malfoy is also important in the final battle.
(I also wanted to add something about Harry and Ginny, that scene where they get together . Ron's reaction was so true, I once dated my friends little sister and saw the exact same face. It was incredible.)
posted
I know there is a faction that likes the idea Dumbledore was pleading for his death because it shows him being more "human," but haven't we seen lots of this? In book 5, he messed up big time by not telling Harry about the prophecy. He was wrong. And then, in book six...was no one else touched/moved/tramatized by the scene in which Harry force-feeds Dumbledore the potion? That was more than enough for me to see that Dumbledore is, like the rest of us, human.
I'd like to think Dumbledore was pleading for Snape to kill him, for Snape's soul, or Harry's safety. I'd like to think, if Snape is evil, that it was for Harry -- pleading with Snape not to kill Harry. Lilly Potter died that way. She wasn't pleading for herself...but for Harry. If Dumbledore dies in a similar way, maybe the protective magic over Harry will be stronger. Maybe that what will give him what he needs to defeat Voldemort. It would make his death meaningful. In any case, I'm going to believe that Dumbledore died nobly until Rowling tells me otherwise. Dumbledore is brave, and I don't think he was afraid to die. He knew the potion might kill him, yet he drank it. I want to think he left this life with dignity and purpouse.
posted
I think the POV thing that Gwalchmai mentioned is espesially a good point. And I like the way Miriel phrased her reasoning.
I understand where Chritine is coming from, though. I get very attached to what I read and find myself dragging my feet for days when someone I loved dies or something oges terribly awry. the beauty of great literature is that you become a part of it and it becomes a part of you.
In the end though it's up to the writer and JK will think her way is the way it was meant to be from the very beginning. I guess we'll have to wait and see what that "way" is.
May I recommend Shannon Hale? OSC has good words to say about her latest book, PRINCESS ACADEMY, but I also recommend her first two: THE GOOSE GIRL and ENNA BURNING.
posted
Not to belabour the point, but I'm going to belabor the point.
Christine, you said, "Snape looked at Dumbledore with hatred!"
Actually, if you read what she actually wrote it says that "Snape gazed for a moment at Dumbledore, and there was revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face"
While I won't say that Rowling is a master wordsmith I think that "and" is important. Had the sentance been "Snape gazed for a moment at Dumbledore, with revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face," I'd be right there with you on the whole cheat thing BUT if Rowling is doing the whole Snape-pretending-to-be-on-Voldemort's-side thing then Snape would be about to kill someone who had only showed him kindness. Wouldn't being forced to do that also etch lines of revulsion and hatred into someone's face?
And I think Aaron's point about the things that Rowling introduced (overheard conversation, vow and Dumbledore's trust) and repeatedly beat us over the head with is really good. If they aren't important to give a Snape and out, then...well imagine the book without them. Or even with just one of them. Without the first two items, I'd believe that Snape was on Voldemort's side and fooling Dumbledore.
Oh, and the stupefying of Prof. Flitwick...Isn't that exactly what Dumbldore did to Harry to keep him out of the fight?
posted
I'm afraid nit-picky word choice doesn't sound at all like Rowling's mode of operation. The exact choice of words just rings exactly like her style.
At this point, I'm feeling a bit blue in the face about all of this. I seem to be the only person in the world who feels that Snape has done something unforgivable, something that means he can't be on the "good" side even if he wants to be. Book 7 will answer these questions and until then there's really nothing else to say.
BTW, I wouldn't be surprised at all if Snape isn't on Voldemort's side either. I don't think there are ever only 2 sides to a conflict and I think Rowling has done a good job of showing that throughout the books. The thing is, she's only ever showed the multi-faceted aspects of the good side...with Barty Crouch and the new minister of magic and how they do evil things in the name of good. She has not done this for the evil side...showing the potential power struggles, the next generation of dark lords, and etc.
posted
Thanks for the heads up about OSC's review.
I don't know that I agree that Snape will turn out to be "good" but Card's review did show me the one condition under which I would accept this possibility -- that Dumbledore faked his death. I'm afraid I don't entirely like the turn, and I like Card's use of the word "scam" to describe what she has done here, but I would, at least, not burn the series.
posted
Regarding other potential candidates for RAB (from a post a while ago), my new favourite which arrived from a drunken brain fart was Bertie Bott (I'm assuming that Bertie is short for either Robert or Roberta)
posted
Okay, I've been skimming this thread, and I have to put in my two cents. SNAPE KILLED DUMBLEDORE!! That's it!! That's what happened!!! J K Rowling said he was dead. I didn't want to accept it, but it's true he's gone, and he's not comming back. I don't think that he wanted to die, or planned to die. As I recall, Dumbledore was the only person that has been mentioned that actually defeated a dark wizard. So he has some experience, frankly alot of experience fighting the dark arts. We know that Harry is the one that is going to kill Voldemort. Dumbledore couldn't do it, but he was well on his way to making sure that Harry knew how. He had alot more to teach Harry, and SNAPE KILLED HIM!!!!! If you are trying to help someone out, you do not take away the most valuable rescourse they have!!! And Dumbledore was it!! Harry's best chance, and Snape took it away!!! I also have to agree that Harry is not going back to school. J K Rowling said on the interview that the Qudditch scene with Luna commentating was the last she was going to have to write. We all know that Harry is Quidditch captain. If he was back at school he would be the Captain and have to play, therefore more Quidditch scenes. Sorry, I've been wanting to rant ever since I read it.
Posts: 102 | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
Re: comments about Dumbledore, Harry, and Voldemort. Be wary of jumping to conclusions about Book Seven. You might yet be surprised by how it turns out.
(...written with minimal knowledge of the books past Book One.)
posted
I thought this book was a let down compared to the other books. As OSC mentions, the other books are all excellent stand alone books, while this one feels like "Empire Strikes Back" and only feels like half of a book.
Snape has always been my favourite character in HP, as I've always felt he was the deepest and richest character. He's not simply the "bad guy" or the "fake good guy." He's a great blend of a tortured youth, conflicting emotions, mixed ambitions, etc.
I'm looking forward to book 8, but 7 was only so-so.
posted
I found book 5 to be at least as transitional as book 6, and not nearly as exciting. While I agree that books 1-4 are still superior in their stand-aloneness, I disagree that book six was subpar in any other way. It kept me on the edge of my seat the whole time, furthered the plot, grew up the characters, and didn't leave me with a dull moment. No, book six was *back* to her usual standards, back after book five, which was the diversion.
Posts: 3567 | Registered: May 2003
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posted
I agree to Snape being a rich and confusing and very interesting charachter, and I was just as shocked as everyone else that he turned evil, because he could have gone either way. I was thinking that he wasn't evil the whole time, because he did save Harry's life. But then we know that Pettigrew is evil, and he's going to have to serve Harry because he is in Harry's debt. It will be interesting.
Posts: 102 | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
I really don't think we will really be able to guess completely accurately what J.K. Rowling has planned. She is a proffesional, after all, and works that way. I mean, hey, the plan may have been for Albus to have been killed by Severous, but then Severous decided to deviate from the plan and kill Albus for his own reasons.... remember that Severous owed his life to James Potter, because of a certain prank by Sirius that would have resulted in Severouses death. that debt was expounded by the fact that Severous sent Tom after James and Lily, so I really don't see how Severous snapped so easily, If He is evil, which I doubt he is. In Order of the Phoenix, Severous threw Harry from His office after Harry saw the embarrassing memory, so that kind of prejudiced me against him, but I cannot simply accept that Snape is evil. quote: (I hope)
a hook-nosed man was yelling at a woman while a black-haired boy watched. quote:
"I dont need help from a flthy little mudblood like you"
this says that either snape is a person who doesnt like help period, or just doesnt like half-bloods, even though He was one.
this may be part of the "sham", but Snape stunned filch before He whent to the tower.
Snape was abused in childhood and Harrys dad did not make things easier for him. maybe Snape was treating Harry something like James treated Snape, or maybe Snape just plain hated harry for looking like james. in that case, DIE, SNAPE, DIE!!!!!!!! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA!!!!!!!!!!! another thing: snape=snake. see the resemblance? write down SNAPE IS EVIL on a piece of paper. sorry about the whole first-name basis there.
[This message has been edited by dreadlord (edited November 15, 2005).]
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