posted
Well, LD, this is the thread to rant in. Like Grumpy, I am also loathe to advise others on their writing. I've no professional sales credit to claim any expertise--and even then, I'd still be reticent.
We are here at Hatrack to support and constructively critique each other, however. Therefore, having read a few of your stories and novel chapters, I'll share my two shekels for you to spend or toss away however you wish:
Your word and story output and determinedness is something I envy. Your strength is your imagination, admirably limitless (your reworking of the UF genre is great). Your weakness, in my humble opinion is transferring this smoothly to the page. Simple mechanics and, therefore, possibly the easiest thing to correct.
Have you considered re-reading William Strunk's classic The Elements of Style? I still find it relevant and helpful. I also recommend John Gardner's books on writing The Art of Fiction" and "On Becoming a Novelist". I found much that was useful in the post-autobiographical half of Stephen King's On Writing.
I am finding that Continuing Education which is required for me as a physician is just as essential for me as a newbie writer. And when I feel I am in a rut, it provides the help I need to get out.
Grumpy's suggestion is excellent: "Start a new story and keep it simple; starting with character and milieu, then add the dramatic complication that starts the hero/heroine on their journey, add a bit of danger/intrigue, and then a bit more until you're at the height of tension and want, then, resolution and the hero/heroine triumphs."
Keep it simple. That would be a great exercise. I should try it sometime.
Just my two shekels.
Respectfully, Dr. Bob
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posted
The best advice i ever got from reading online is to finish the story you are on, then write another one. Then another one. Then another one. Eventually you can go back and fix the old one if you want to, but only after you have enough of them under your belt to be able to take a glance and see instantly what's wrong with it. if you can't see anything wrong with it, either you haven't advanced enough, or (this is quite likely) there's nothing wrong with it and the editor simply didn't happen to be in the mood for that particular story.
Or do what I did. Write 'em, put 'em out there. If one sells, great. If not, oh well. Write another one, put it out there.
Two weeks ago, i happened to google something and by accident found a review of one of my older short stories on a private blog. I never knew it was there, although the review was written soon after the story went live, nearly a year ago. It was a glowing review by a reader in the UK, and I never had any idea that they liked it because they never sent me an email, and like I said it was imply someone's person blog. But they had bought my story and loved it. All these months it had sat there, until i happened to stumble across it.
That was worth it all to me. I'm gonna be googling more from now on:)
Screw the world's opinion. March to your own drummer.
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quote:Originally posted by Grumpy old guy: LDWriter2, having read most of your posts over the last few weeks, I get the feeling that you are trying too hard to follow other peoples advice. Btw, I'm great at giving advice, and it's worth exactly what anyone pays for it: not much, if anything at all.
Right at the moment I'm wading through the 'advice' of Aristotle, Freytag and Egri; acknowledged by quite a few as Master of the craft of writing. If I tried to implement everything they're telling me I should do in my own writing, I'd be a real mess.
I think you should go back to basics, keeping in mind what you've learned so far, but being extremely skeptical about including it in your own writing. Start a new story and keep it simple; starting with character and milieu, then add the dramatic complication that starts the hero/heroine on their journey, add a bit of danger/intrigue, and then a bit more until you're at the height of tension and want, then, resolution and the hero/heroine triumphs. Or, if you're into tragedy, you can add the sudden reversal where everything that seemed good was, in fact, bad, and the hero is now a broken fool.
And now the disclaimer: My advice is worth exactly what you see in it and nothing more.
Phil.
Thanks for the response.
I might be trying too hard to follow advice even though supposedly I have cut down on that for the last few stories. Which includes the one I sent to IGMS.
And don't take this how it might sound but once I've started working on the character and milieu it's no longer simple.
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quote:Originally posted by History: Well, LD, this is the thread to rant in. Like Grumpy, I am also loathe to advise others on their writing. I've no professional sales credit to claim any expertise--and even then, I'd still be reticent.
We are here at Hatrack to support and constructively critique each other, however. Therefore, having read a few of your stories and novel chapters, I'll share my two shekels for you to spend or toss away however you wish:
Your word and story output and determinedness is something I envy. Your strength is your imagination, admirably limitless (your reworking of the UF genre is great). Your weakness, in my humble opinion is transferring this smoothly to the page. Simple mechanics and, therefore, possibly the easiest thing to correct.
Have you considered re-reading William Strunk's classic The Elements of Style? I still find it relevant and helpful. I also recommend John Gardner's books on writing The Art of Fiction" and "On Becoming a Novelist". I found much that was useful in the post-autobiographical half of Stephen King's On Writing.
I am finding that Continuing Education which is required for me as a physician is just as essential for me as a newbie writer. And when I feel I am in a rut, it provides the help I need to get out.
Grumpy's suggestion is excellent: "Start a new story and keep it simple; starting with character and milieu, then add the dramatic complication that starts the hero/heroine on their journey, add a bit of danger/intrigue, and then a bit more until you're at the height of tension and want, then, resolution and the hero/heroine triumphs."
Keep it simple. That would be a great exercise. I should try it sometime.
Just my two shekels.
Respectfully, Dr. Bob
Thanks to you too.
And as in my last note, don't take this the way it might sound here.
But simple mechanics aren't that easy or I would have solved that problem a couple of years ago. No matter what I learn I seem to keep making the same basic mistakes.
And even though it has been a few months I have done some continual education. I read "On Writing" and a couple of other books, taken an online workshop. Listened to people here and on the other forum as well as to pro writers.
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quote:Originally posted by rcmann: The best advice i ever got from reading online is to finish the story you are on, then write another one. Then another one. Then another one. Eventually you can go back and fix the old one if you want to, but only after you have enough of them under your belt to be able to take a glance and see instantly what's wrong with it. if you can't see anything wrong with it, either you haven't advanced enough, or (this is quite likely) there's nothing wrong with it and the editor simply didn't happen to be in the mood for that particular story.
Or do what I did. Write 'em, put 'em out there. If one sells, great. If not, oh well. Write another one, put it out there.
Two weeks ago, i happened to google something and by accident found a review of one of my older short stories on a private blog. I never knew it was there, although the review was written soon after the story went live, nearly a year ago. It was a glowing review by a reader in the UK, and I never had any idea that they liked it because they never sent me an email, and like I said it was imply someone's person blog. But they had bought my story and loved it. All these months it had sat there, until i happened to stumble across it.
That was worth it all to me. I'm gonna be googling more from now on:)
Screw the world's opinion. March to your own drummer.
That part I have down. Got three stories I'm actively working on now. I've been told I'm a natural born storyteller even but neither of those things are helping. Last night I decided to needed to work on a story instead of critting, thought about starting a new one with lots of action as space battles, but ended up working on one I hadn't worked on for a week and a half at least. I did the opening during that online workshop--Dean Wesley Smith said it was a powerful opening and I should do the rest of the story but try to what he calls crash different genre together. Something like Dr. Bob does on his own. So I thought about it for a few weeks finally decided to go with my original idea for it. But I'm not quite sure about one plot point. Would it really fit or not. It would make the story more complicated and longer but is it really needed? Can I explain another plot point without it? It's basically like another story I just did. Realtionship-UF-paranormal with a touch of horror. The other one had more than a touch of horror though. So I feel like I should go with the more complicated tale even though I'm not quiet sure of one other point.
I have received one great review--six years ago--and a couple of critiquers have said something positive about my stories so I know the feeling,
Keep looking your stories probably have more good reviews but watch out for the bad ones too. Mary Robinette Kowal received a scathing review not that long ago. If she can so can you or the rest of us.
posted
Grrr...I've written about 5,000 words of a story. I like the story. I like the writing. I...realized tonight that it took me 5,000 words to get to the real beginning of the story.
5,000 words of plot, world building, characterization. I suppose I'm going in the right direction, but this two steps forward, one step back crap sucks.
Rant over. Time to write.
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quote:Originally posted by babooher: Grrr...I've written about 5,000 words of a story. I like the story. I like the writing. I...realized tonight that it took me 5,000 words to get to the real beginning of the story.
5,000 words of plot, world building, characterization. I suppose I'm going in the right direction, but this two steps forward, one step back crap sucks.
Rant over. Time to write.
I have a couple of stories like that...after many words of explaining things: world building., introduction etc., I wonder if they should be novels-novellas instead. One is an interesting steampunk set in the US with two federal agents--both new and one female one male--took me way too long to get all the introduction out of the way for a short story.
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I'm struggling painfully through 1500 words the last couple days, and I mean ALL day, while I try to get my binge writing gears lubricated and put into high gear. I've got three more days free for writing with over 14K written of a story and two more scenes to go...and what I've just written is merely a transition to them (and may have to go ultimately).
It's like getting 3/4 of the way to the mountain top and finding the trail suddenly overgrown with briars or finding an unexpected oily bog swallowing the path. I can see the mountaintop. It is so close, but it's hell getting to it.
Respectfully, Dr. Bob
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posted
I know that feeling. Sometimes I just can't get what's in my head written out. And sometimes it feels like wading through mud, I just keep going because I have to get to the place I want to be at.
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posted
I am in the middle of something similar. Book 2 of my trilogy starts with a divided plot line, two protagonists running separately, then they join up about three fourths of the way through the book. I'm finally closing in on finishing the first of the two separate initial plot lines, and I'm already above 76k words. The second line is barely begun, and I haven't even finished carving out the final shape of the conjoined line. Like LDWriter2 said, I just keep slogging through, knowing that eventually I'm going to be scraping a lot of mud.
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posted
I've been working on a story for a long time. I tried finishing it today, but everything I've written is crap. I'm looking forward to the day when all these writing attempts result in my actually being good at writing.
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posted
mayflower988, feeling that way about what you've written is something that happens to writers a lot as they grow and learn. I think it's partly because their critical skills tend to outpace their writing skills over time.
The thing to do is to keep writing, even if you're convinced it's crap. Eventually, your writing skills will catch up with your critical skills and you won't hate what you write--for a while, at least.
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posted
That explains a lot, Kathleen. I'm still waiting for that "eventually", however.
It takes a long time for me to go from hating what I write to (in relative terms) "loving" it. And this happens with writing each new story.
For me, the old adage is true: writing is one part inspiration and ninety-nine parts perspiration.
My first drafts are painfully written, which is likely why I "hate" writing them. They're lumps of smelly wet clay scraped one tiny spoonful at a time from the morass inside of my skull, and best described as "ugly potential."
It would be so much better if I could go from Inspiration directly to my second or third drafts. The clay has achieved a clearer semblance of form by then and I can play with words and sentence flow, carving and molding here and there until I'm closer to the tale I initially envisioned. I enjoy this part of writing second best (what is best is returning to a finished tale months or years after it is written and finding nothing I would change).
In awe, I recently watched youtube clips of Brandon Sanderson writing the first draft of the second volume of his Stormlight Archives (you are watching his words appear on his word processor) http://www.youtube.com/channel/UC3g-w83Cb5pEAu5UmRrge-A Smooth and flowing, like cool water flowing from an open tap. That is what I aspire to.
Respectfully, D. Bob
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posted
After a discussion some of us on another forum-which isn't around as a forum anymore--pretty agreed that when it comes to our own writing our inner critic likes to come out and play.
There's even a saying that goes something like a writer is the worse judge of his-hers own writing. Meaning we over criticize our own writing. Even though I think sometimes it goes the opposite way too. We like our writing too much.
That is suppose to be especially true of beginners. I know writers who had stories they thought were crap only to have that one be sold or won first. The story they spent tons of time on and thought fantastic never got a second look even from a number of editors.
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posted
Oh, good. This is all very reassuring. I managed to finish a rough draft of the story last night, and I posted a request for readers. We'll see how that goes. Maybe eventually some publisher will think my story is non-crap. :)
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posted
Brandon Sanderson, as you may have heard, completed ten full novels before he felt he had reached the point where anything he wrote could be submitted to publishers and have any hope of acceptance.
He may seem to have it easy now, but he worked hard to get where he is.
"Eventually" comes to those who don't quit working for it.
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posted
Kathleen, I also don't have any intention of submitting to publishers anytime soon. When I cross the threshold of no-longer-embarrassing, I'll know that I'm ready to be published. I'm trying to learn and improve in the meantime.
I'm aiming for that 'eventually', though I sincerely hope that it will come sooner rather than later.
quote:Originally posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury: Brandon Sanderson, as you may have heard, completed ten full novels before he felt he had reached the point where anything he wrote could be submitted to publishers and have any hope of acceptance.
He may seem to have it easy now, but he worked hard to get where he is.
"Eventually" comes to those who don't quit working for it.
(chuckle) If I can write "ten full novels" in my remaining lifetime, I'll be pleased.
I'm not saying I wish to match his achievements as a published author (I know I will not), but I would like to transition my inspiration to written word as easily and coherently as he demonstrates on the links I provided.
It would be a shame to only achieve this when I'm too old, however. (smile)
Respectfully, Dr. Bob
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posted
Wow, Dr. Bob! Thanks for sharing those links. I've never seen the creative process being streamed like that before. Mind blown. This should be required of all my favorite authors.
You know what? I think it would be awesome if we could get a group of us on Hatrack to all download the trial version of Camtasia (that's what Sanderson's using) or some similar software and record ourselves typing something short - the first 13 lines, or a piece of flash fiction. It would be such a neat way to see how each of us approaches the craft. It would definitely be a great learning experience.
But I'm not sure how tech-savvy we are here on Hatrack... hm. (If anyone wants to do this - seriously, I'm game.)
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posted
I would need to have the video play at hyperspeed, otherwise the viewer would watch for hours as I obsessively-compulsively plod away at a few paragraphs.
Respectfully, Dr. Bob
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posted
Oh, mine would definitely be full of deleting and editing. A typed rant about how nothing sounds good will probably exist briefly somewhere in the middle. I may or may not be too lazy to edit out the parts that involve perusing the internet for the sake of procrastination.
Still, I would be interested in watching all of your videos... maybe at 3x speed. =D
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posted
I get annoyed with people hanging over my shoulder while I write. My family will tell you that I am unfit for human company when trying to hammer out a story. Most likely knowing that I was being recorded would destroy my ability to create anything.
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posted
Back to the purpose of this site. As I said going through a writing downer at the moment.
With six to eight rejections this week and possibly more to come since it isn't Late Saturday yet. It would be a fine time for that very late Analog rejection to come in. They have been very slow getting all the new staff situated over there.
As I said on another thread would have been nice to have gotten at least one encouraging personal note this week for my birthday but not even that.
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posted
Well, you could always do what I do, LD. Only complete two or three stories a year. And make them too long for nearly all markets Then you'll never have to worry about getting "six to eight rejections" in a week.
Respectfully, Dr. Bob
P.S. The "purpose" of this thread (for me) is to kvetch about the process and act of writing, not what happens after.
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posted
Well, its the act of writing that produces what comes afterward.
In other words afterwards is lousy--if I could figure out how to stop making the same mistakes the process would better-- because my process and act is mediocre and that afterwards produced by mediocrity makes the act harder to do. At least for a while.
posted
*sigh* I am frustrated with my novel right now. I'm doing this for Camp NaNo; it's supposed to be a realistic-sounding medieval fantasy. I'm having trouble coming up with stuff to go in the middle, as in things to develop the characters and show their growth process. I've got the beginning, and I'm pretty sure I know how I want the ending to go (though I haven't written it yet), but the middle part is tripping me up. Quite frankly, I'm getting intimidated by this whole concept of writing a full-fledged novel. I'm only at 7000 words or so, and I'm shooting for 50,000. (I thought that would be a good goal for my first NaNo.) Anyway, encouragement, tips, commiseration, etc. would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
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quote:Originally posted by mayflower988: *sigh* I am frustrated with my novel right now. I'm doing this for Camp NaNo; it's supposed to be a realistic-sounding medieval fantasy. I'm having trouble coming up with stuff to go in the middle, as in things to develop the characters and show their growth process. I've got the beginning, and I'm pretty sure I know how I want the ending to go (though I haven't written it yet), but the middle part is tripping me up. Quite frankly, I'm getting intimidated by this whole concept of writing a full-fledged novel. I'm only at 7000 words or so, and I'm shooting for 50,000. (I thought that would be a good goal for my first NaNo.) Anyway, encouragement, tips, commiseration, etc. would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
I've had that problem and I believe many other writers have too at one time or another.
I put in a couple of side trips in mine. I've notice that sometimes a hero will end up doing something else for one chapter than get back to the main course. Sometimes in that side trip he finds something or figures out something that helps him in the end but not every time. Maybe put in a little romance or he-she-it has to go to a wedding gets involved with bandits on the way. I don't know what type of bad guy you have but is it possible for them to send some type of assassin after the hero? If she-he-it has to travel a storm could come up. If there is more than one person--as in a group--on the hero's side maybe one could get kidnapped by a strange cult and has to be rescued. If your hero is on a ship might it be a Navy ship, and on the way has to take a detour to get a pirate and run through a storm?
Does he-it-she have to find something? If so than a chapter gong through some strange old ruins or two? Searching over a small island maybe? Both? Maybe your hero hears his mother is dying of some strange thing the bad guy is doing so they head over to see her one last time and end up fighting the minions of the bad guy or just a tribe of bandits.
Is any of this close? If so does it help?
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The journey between our known starting point and our anticipated destination. Personally, I've found truth in the old adage "To travel is better than to arrive" and "It is the journey, not the destination."
I often find my initally unimagined "middles" to contain better writing than my pre-convceived begginings and endings. They can delight and surprise me because I did not anticipate them. It is like discovering an unexpected pristine pool and waterful off the hiking path or that chance discovery of a little hole-in-the wall cafe on a quaint side street that serves the best lamb shish and the perfect mojito. You get to enjoy the fresh surprise and wonder of it just as your readers will later.
Thus, I suggest two courses if you know (truly know) your starting point, your destination, and your protagonist:
1) Just write. Enjoy the process of traveling. To make it easier, set up a few stops along the way (i.e. conflicts, internal and external, you will have your protagonist face). This can form a loose outline or you can plan a more detailed one if you so require.
2) Write the ending you know. Get it out of your system. Pin it. Then go to (1) above. You can, and may likely, rewrite the ending when you later reach it.
Respectfully, Dr. Bob
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posted
LD: Those are all very good suggestions. I'm not sure if I can use them. Maybe the storm one. But I want to make sure I'm not sticking things into my story for no reason. Maybe this is just me, but I have to have a reason for each setback that happens. Not so much a causal (causal, not casual) reason as an effectual reason, i.e. some kind of payoff. For example, my heroine sets out on a long journey to find a doctor. On the way, her money is stolen. When she finds the doctor, he refuses to return with her because she has no money to pay him. I'll consider the storm idea, since that's something I haven't thought of before, but I can't use it until I figure out what the result of the storm would be. Hmm...actually, now that I think about it, I may be able to think of a purpose for the storm. Stay tuned.
Dr. Bob: I like the idea of just writing and seeing where that takes me, but I've tried that last year with this same story and ended up with a lot of mess that I wasn't able to use. That's why I'm starting this story over for Camp NaNo, because I just needed to throw out the mess I'd made and start fresh. However, I like the idea of writing the ending first and then doing that wandering writing for the middle. I may try that. Maybe if I "get it out of my system" then I'll be able to work on the middle.
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posted
I tried to throw out ideas that not only you could use but that might trigger your own Muse into a new lines of thought.
I know I have read novels where sometimes the hero or heroine gets involved with an event that has nothing to do with their mission or adventure. It sounds like you don't like those types of scenes even tough as I said some use it. Maybe the event gives some insight into the hero and explains why he or in your case she does something later.
Maybe in one example I used the hero hears his mother is in danger so heads off to his home town. Maybe after a short battle with the people causing his mother troubles he decides that since she is in town after all she could check out the local branch of the King's library. She will just have to sneak into the section for Nobles. She does and just before she is discovered she finds a reference to a the same quest she is on. The item she is looking for is in a tricky spot. Even the best GPS spells get off because something around there makes it point off from True North. Now if she could only get a good GPS spell.
Or in the case you used. Maybe-depending if she is a fighter--she or the group with her, are attacked by a bandit gang. It doesn't go their way however and many of the bandits are killed. She goes through their stuff and finds enough money to pay the doctor. Or if she sings or dances she joins a troupe until she raises the money. Or again depending on what type of person she is. Some rich guy-Lord-high ranking officer wants her to spend the night with him. She says yes but once at the guy's Mansion-castle she changed her mind and sneaks out. Maybe runs into a burglar who either she can turn in for the reward or she joins them for a couple of burglaries.
Or??? anything else along those lines.
Oh, I do the just writing thing too at times. It seems to make sense and goes along with the plot but I still feel like it's garbage.
There are quite a few writers who write the end first or half way through. They like it better that way. I think I have done that one time but as I implied, it works for some writers,
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Sometimes you may add something for extra words but later figure out how to use it. In the novel I am working on for Indiezing I added a scene where some tries for vengeance-even though he didn't deserve any- against my MC. After being drugged she has to fight the guy in a dark alley. Just something to give her show she is willing to do what ever it takes to win but later I came up with an idea. During her escape from the guy she does something that shows how the bad guy can do something he isn't suppose to be able to do. So there is a connection after all.
Later there is another fight between my MC and some strange being who has been influencing her thoughts and feelings. It's not only what I think of as a great scene for her and my writing the fight frees her, which makes battling the big bad guy a little easier because she is free from an influence she didn't even know about. It also explained her feelings for and her actions around her friends.
So maybe come up with a scene now but think of the connection later. Posts: 5289 | Registered: Jun 2010
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posted
Funny you should mention that. That's actually what happened for me with the scene I mentioned about the thieves taking my heroine's money. :) I put that scene in there originally to show that traveling in this world is dangerous, especially for a young woman traveling alone, but then it occurred to me that there was the possibility for further tension/complication due to her money being stolen. I was able to come up with a synopsis, and I posted it over at the "Feedback for Books" forum. However, I shared it with my brother, who is also a writer, and he pointed something out to me that didn't seem to work. So now I'm trying to think of an event to delay my MC so that the opposition character has enough time to fall deathly ill. If you get a chance, maybe you could take a look at the synopsis and tell me what you think? I'm thinking maybe a storm could prevent my MC from traveling (thanks for the idea), but I'd like to brainstorm some other options, just to have a variety of choices.
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posted
I should have thought of this sooner but another way to add words is to lengthen a scene. This is a novel so--in case you have not yet--add her thoughts, the five humans senses--in the original idea of thieves does one grab her hand and twist the hand so his skin rubs hers, how did the smell etc--and emotions. Not just say she feared for her life but expand on that some. And describe her fear: heartrate jumping through the roof, thoughts going through her head, emotions. Does she freeze or try to run? Does she swear to learn to use a sword or staff or hand to hand fighting?
And the visit with the Doctor. Again if you haven't done all this. How does the place smell? Does he smoke a cigar? Does he shake her hand with over long cuffs that rub her skin? Is he friendly or a complete snob?
Taste would hard to do but maybe he could offer her wine or even just water after a long trip.
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posted
You know, I think the more I write, the more I realize I need to learn. I know I can't expect very much from my first novel, but is there any hope for it getting published one day?
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posted
Of course there's hope. The more you write, the more you learn, the better you can become. Don't give up and there's no telling what you can do.
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posted
Thanks. I've gotten really attached to this story and my MC, so I really want to get her story published, even more than I did when I started working on it.
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quote:Originally posted by mayflower988: You know, I think the more I write, the more I realize I need to learn. I know I can't expect very much from my first novel, but is there any hope for it getting published one day?
I know the feeling about writing. When I started I didn't know there were rules or guidelines etc.
And even though many writers didn't get published until their third to fifth book many have been picked on their very first novel. And a few were told no but to send in another book which was picked up. Later they went back and got that first one published.
So still a good chance for your first.
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posted
I'm working on my most important novel idea first. I've thought about it a lot and I've decided that I'd rather not wait to write this novel after a few practice ones. Maybe it's only the most important one at this point in my life, and a far more important one will come to me later. I've decided to seize the moment.
But does this mean that I will bury the truths I wish to convey through my novel with inadequacy? I sincerely hope not. But it probably will happen.
Posts: 252 | Registered: Feb 2013
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quote:You know, I think the more I write, the more I realize I need to learn.
You hit the nail directly on the head. Any artist, whether it be musician, painter, writer, tattooist or sculptor (I know, I have limited friends) have all agreed that part of what makes them strive to get better is knowing they have to. This is what is means to be an artist--striving to get better. It's all about the journey, not where you end up.
Posts: 3687 | Registered: Jan 2007
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quote:Originally posted by LDWriter2: And even though many writers didn't get published until their third to fifth book many have been picked on their very first novel. And a few were told no but to send in another book which was picked up. Later they went back and got that first one published.
So still a good chance for your first.
Thanks. I needed to hear that. Even if it doesn't happen now, it might happen later.
quote:Originally posted by InarticulateBabbler: This is what is means to be an artist--striving to get better. It's all about the journey, not where you end up.
Good point. It's a lifelong journey. I'm beginning to see that.
Posts: 298 | Registered: Jun 2012
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