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I've been thinking about the EG movie for a while and all of the problems that are involved in bringing the story to the screen. I've been concerned about how you get LOTs of high quality child actors to make Academy Award winning performances, all in the same movie. If anyone has noticed, there are only a few good child actors around at any given time... and then they grow up. The CG option bothers me because the only completely CG models we have seen in movies are Jar Jar Binks, Yoda, and Gollum. The stretch from those "characters" to really complex human children seems like too much of a stretch. Now, I do have one option on how to do it. Get a top flight Japanese anime studio to do the movie. No where else have I seen serious drama done well that involved so many children. I know that anime might not be as mainstream as would be desired for EG, but creative marketing is going to be needed anyway to interest the average movie goer. After all, 5 year old military commanders in space is not your normal hollywood fare. Just a thought to kick around. Let me know what you all think.
Posts: 12 | Registered: Mar 2005
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The biggest problem with bringing EG to the movie screen is OSC's historic success with the story (as evidenced by this forum) and whatever he'd like to see the story do on film and/or evolve into the pop-culture mental cluster****.
He's a keen observer, obviously, but like all human beings he's got tremendous blindspots.
Stupendous, actually.
While his discussions and movie-reviewer columns (and I'm sure his recent meetings with the idiot-elite of microcosmicH-wood) have attempted to curtail the "vanity project" nature of an EG film, it's still there.
I really think OSC oughta call up Clarke.
Posts: 551 | Registered: Mar 2005
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The actors won't look like their story counterparts. Bean is supposed to look like hes 6 or 7. No way they'll find an actor that young or looks that young. I'm sure they'll just take artistic license and up the age to like 11-14. Spoilers for EG ahead.
How will the brutal killings of Stilson and Bonzo translate onto the bigscreen i wonder?
Posts: 27 | Registered: Jun 2005
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Even if you scale up the ages to 11-14 there are not enough good actors that age to even cover his Jeesh. How man stellar actors of that age can you name right now? Dakota Fanning is about the only one I can think of right off hand. Now if you used anime and got a REALLY good Japanese anime studio, it could be as close to the book as you wanted. They could be the right age, and you could make it into a series so it wouldn't be cut down to fit into a movie. The only problem is how do you market anime to the masses. Although, I don't think EG will appeal to average joe movie goer anyway. On the other hand, the demographic that EG appeals to is similar to the same demographic that anime appeals to. Smart 13-30 somethings.
Posts: 12 | Registered: Mar 2005
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Anime? Gross. Anime just doesn't have the aesthetics it takes to recreate the EG univerese. Anime always looks so... well, not realistic, and Ender's Game is a pretty realistic book. I just don't see it working as anime or any form of animation at all.
Posts: 20 | Registered: Apr 2005
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This and other considerations are discussed extensively.
BTW - the kids are gonna be around 12 in the movie. And there are plenty of skilled actors that age, even if they're not widely known. And really, depending on the script, you only need 2-4 really good actors - Ender, Bean, Valentine, Peter.
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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I would like it as an Anime as well, especially if its done by the people who did Gundam Wing/Seed which follows a similar concept of kids in controll of military weapons. Though if they can get enough CHild actors then ok but if they can't...? Also remember its not just the jeesh but the backgorund kids and all the others.
Posts: 1567 | Registered: Oct 2004
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If you'd like to see an anime of this then the best anime I can think of that is along these lines is Gunslinger Girl. It's about little girls being used as assassins. I know it sounds dumb. When I first heard about the concept I thought that it would end up being a comedy, but it's not. So, then I thought it wouldn't be too good, but it's quite possibly one of my favorites. It's handeled quite intelligently and focuses much more on the characters and how the girls' minds have been warped than on action.
Still, I don't know if anime would be the way to go for Ender's Game. It'd be something I'd have to see first and I don't see that happening. I'm sure they'll get some decent child actors for it. Plus, most voices for children or done by adults in american and japanese animation, so to make them truly sound like kids they'd just have to get kids anyway to play the parts.
Posts: 142 | Registered: Apr 2005
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That's pretty interesting that you said Gunslinger Girl Megalomaniac, that's what made me think of making EG a anime. The way the kids acted childlike at one moment and stone cold calculated the next immediately made me think of EG. And I know that there is almost 0% chance of this happening kaioshin00, that's why I said it was just something to discuss. I never thought that OSC would take movie advice from a random person on the forum anyway. It's just an idea I had that solved all of the problems I can see with making the movie.
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Anime is for children. No adults will watch this movie if it's anime and Ender's Game isn't ment to be read solely by children; it has some powerful messages/drama.
Posts: 38 | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Icec0o1: Anime is for children.
That has got to be the most ignorant comment I have ever seen. Just because something is animated does not mean it is a cartoon for children. At least Japan is able to realize the animated form does not have to have those boundries. I highly doubt anyone would agree that the nudity and extreme violence (more extreme than anything live-action) often round in anime are meant for children.
As for Ender's Game being an Anime, I don't think it would ever happen. Also, I don't think it would reach as broad an audience if it were to be an anime. I trust Wolfgang to pull it off in live action *crosses fingers*
Posts: 29 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Icec0o1: Anime is for children. No adults will watch this movie if it's anime and Ender's Game isn't ment to be read solely by children; it has some powerful messages/drama.
That is way off base. The most powererful movies I have ever seen are anime. Anime has the ability to show and tell things that live action movies never could.
You wanna see a 12 year old kid fake fly around a room? fine. But i wanna see something thats seems realistic, as if the characters are real, and have emotions. Yes, it's hard to do with anime, but it's even harder to do with children.
Look at one of the best grossing movies that involves a young Child. Star Wars: The Phantom Menace has an incredible cast. Jake Loyd did a tremendous job......for a young child. But in those moments when we were supposed to feel his pain, his want, we didn't. He did a fine job.
Like I said, anime allows for stuff that, otherwise, wouldn't happen. It would be the very best thing that could happen to EG. I want to feel Ender break down completly after Bonzo, but with a live action movie, all we will see is a little boy cry in the corner.
I know it won't happen, but anime would be the best answer.
posted
And one more thing while I'm thinking about it:
Never, never come on here, and purposefully start an argument with an idiotic statement like that. It has no base, and is definitly just you opinion. Many adults make a living off of anime.
Seriously, I don't mean to scare you off, but lurk a little bit. don't come in here like you know all. You will be torn to shreds.
Posts: 283 | Registered: Jan 2003
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Anime is a "niche" thing; I know many people who love it, but I personally don't. And a large percentage of people who have actually *seen* anime and know what it is, dislike it and are annoyed by it. There is no way they would take a property as valuable as Ender's Game and throw it away on something that most people aren't "into". Just my opinion. Although I have to say Wolfgang Peterson has his next film cast, is deep into pre-production and it ain't Ender's Game. Losing hope, here.
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And by the way I think we can throw away the argument that you can get a more "realistic" performance from a cartoon than from a real kid without giving it too much more thought. There are a lot of very talented child actors out there.
Posts: 2267 | Registered: May 2005
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quote: Never, never come on here, and purposefully start an argument with an idiotic statement like that. It has no base, and is definitly just you opinion.
quote: (...)I know it won't happen, but anime would be the best answer.
You can't tell other people not to post their opinions when do the same thing yourself. Just beccause you think anime would be the "best answer" doesn't mean that is. How would you like it if I told you never to post your opinions?
In fact, if anime was the best answer, then why don't they do it? Do you not trust Mr. Card's judgment in his own creations?
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actually, sometimes, no. He does a lot of brilliant things, but some of what he does isn't always the best answer.
Posts: 283 | Registered: Jan 2003
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"And by the way I think we can throw away the argument that you can get a more "realistic" performance from a cartoon than from a real kid without giving it too much more thought. There are a lot of very talented child actors out there. "
Wrong, just plain wrong. Have you ever seen Naruto or Gundam Seed? Extremely good acting! Especially the part where Shinn Asuka's Sister is killed in the cross fire between the Orb Union and the Earth Alliance Fedaration (I know the Ancynm is EAF so I'm geuss what the name is they haven't had a new episode translated for 2 weeks so I don't quite remember)?
Posts: 1567 | Registered: Oct 2004
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I believe the point is that no matter how real the performances are, it's just a cartoon. You might love it, but it's very unappealing to the masses.
Posts: 20 | Registered: Apr 2005
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To expand on what I think Mullitt is saying is that... even if Ice's post is blantently wrong, it's why an Ender's Game anime would not be successful. In the grand ole' USA, anime is primarily seen as a children's thing. If you ask the majority of people to name an anime, if they could do it at all, what do you think they would answer? Ghost in the Shell? Probably not. Heck, a Cowboy Bebop, System Experiments: Lain, or a Haibane Renmei would be nice, but you'll probably end up with a show like Pokèmon, Yugi-oh, or Digimon.
That is what the masses associate with anime. (No, I don't have facts to back me up, but come on, be realistic, not everyone has been exposed to the same things that you have.) They just won't be able to take Ender's Game seriously is it is anime or completly CG.
That doesn't mean that it won't be a great movie if it's anime. It will just be a box office distaster. Adults wouldn't want to go see it, it would be rated to high for children... You'd have a small crowd of people who read the book who would come out complaining about how it isn't faithful, there just isn't really much way to win with anime.
Now, as a sixteen year old, I must finish this post because my father needs my help with something. So ^_^
Posts: 87 | Registered: Jan 2004
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I have no what has the greater potential to have a better preformance: live action or anime. But, I'd say that live action has it much easier, simply because it is naturally more real. And animation, of course, is artifical. The ending to an anime called "Jin-Roh" is very tramatic, but at the same time the animation seems a tad, I don't know, goodfy? It's still sad, but something just feels off about the way it was drawn.
But, just because it is animated and doesn't have that natural realism to it doesn't mean that it can't effect someone to the point of crying. Go see "Grave of the Fireflys." I can pretty much gurantee you that if you don't cry at the ending of this movie then you will be close to it. Just thinking about it makes me sad...
Posts: 142 | Registered: Apr 2005
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I didn't cry during Grave of the Fireflies, but I came close to it twice and I felt sick to my stomach at the end of the movie. I'm not doubting anime's ability to portray emotion, especially now, seeing as I believe Grave of the Fireflies came out the same year I did, just the willingness of the (American) masses to believe that it can portray that emotion.
While I agree that you'd have a much more willing male 14-35 year old bachelor audience, I don't think that is large enough to support the type of production costs this movie would be looking at, plus with Wolfgang Peterson already tied to it, I don't really know if I want him experimenting with a medium that he isn't too familar with (or is he? I don't really know the director that well).
What was the last good movie that Wolfgang Peterson directed? Air Force One was okay... Enemy Mine?
Edit: However, with a movie like Grave of the Fireflies, anime is probably the only option. That movie just wouldn't work well in live action because would just be too hard to watch. Is Ender Game that type of movie? There are some really harsh scenes, especially if we look at the starving in the streets of Rotterdam, but I don't think that it would be too uncomfortable to watch.
Posts: 87 | Registered: Jan 2004
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posted
Honestly, I haven't seen Troy. I kind of dismissed it as a movie following in the wake of Lord of the Rings success (or another Braveheart).
However, I haven't heard the best things about it. Looking it up real quick, it got an average review (by critics, bah, what do they know anyway?) of 6.2 according to rottontomatoes.com and a 7.2 on imdb.com. Also, on IMDB, I'm looking at what appear to be financial figures, now I'm not sure if I'm looking at this correctly, but according to this, it had grossed $135 million in the USA (I think these are only USA figures), I think this includes eight months of DVD sales. For a movie that had a $185 budget and had Brad Pitt in a starring role... that doesn't sound like a "box office success."
Even if you add on UK's gross and such, you're still not pulling above it's reported budget, that doesn't look to promising from a studio's point of view, does it? (This is actually a question, I don't really know, I'm hoping someone else knows more about this than I do.) Just, OSC has expressed doubt on here before. Wolfgang Peterson being attached to it is good, does that help, though?
Posts: 87 | Registered: Jan 2004
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posted
I completely understand that anime is not even going to be considered by OSC and Peterson. I understood that before I even started this. I just wanted to see if anyone else thought the same way as I that it might be the only way it could be successfully done. I just know that with anime you don't have to cut corners. You don't have to make it shorter than you need too. And you don't have to worry about finding crazy numbers of outstanding child actors. As I see it you have 3 options on EG. Make it with real child actors (good luck finding that many), make it with CG kids (they will look unnatural since no true to life human has been done in CG yet), or use anime. My biggest fear is that the movie will be released with major changes and alterations to the core story. I just don't see a way to make EG live action and keep it true to the book.
Posts: 12 | Registered: Mar 2005
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I know that even if the movie is sub par, that I still have the books, and that is true... but consider this. How many times have you loved a book and heard it was being made into a movie, then the movie comes out and it sucks. After that every time you read the book again, or a new installment in the series, you always have a little thought in your head "Man, it's too bad about that movie." What used to be a purely enjoyable experience is then forever marred by one bad movie. The best example I can think of is the Earthsea movie. The Ursula Le Guin book was cool, I really enjoyed it. Then the movie was made by Scifi channel and it total skrewed up every aspect of the book. After that I couldn't even finish the series. After the movie I just didn't want to read the books anymore. I am sure that will not happen with EG, but anything close to that would be tragic.
Posts: 12 | Registered: Mar 2005
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With the whole bad movies based on books thing, after I see one, it will pretty much destroy my imagination for how I pictured it and replace it with the sets and actors from the movie if I go back and reread the book. Elijah Wood, from now on, will be the Frodo I picture when I decide to go back through the Lord of the Rings. This may not happen with everything, but most of it, for better or worse.
Posts: 142 | Registered: Apr 2005
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Like I was trying to say, it's really hard for a book to live up to a movie, the only way that I learn to like certain movies if I can respect them as their own artistic vision, for example, as a Harry Potter fan, I actually rather like Colombus' two audio-book visions of the Harry Potter movies and then was dissapointed at how rushed the third movie felt in comparison to with the book, but then as an average movie goer, the third one is considered the best without much question. Which is the better formula? As a fan, I want the audio book movie, but if that's delivered, will it flop?
As for what Mr_Megalomaniac brings up, if the buggers aren't done right (and they sound like they will be rather.... odd from what I've read about them from OSC) it could mess up the series for me, so I completly understand where you are coming from.
Posts: 87 | Registered: Jan 2004
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I don't think anime and cartoons are a bad way to go for telling a story.
There's an old animation of The Hobbit that I saw prolly in grade-school that resonates for me, more strongly even than Jackson's heroic, unprecedented, and historic TRIOLOGY.
sings: "the chances, the changes.."
Those folk songs have stuck with me for quite some time. I doubt the CG renderings of the hefalumps, or whatever those tusky blundering war-beasts were called, in the Jackson-cum-Lucas rendition, will.
quote: make it with CG kids (they will look unnatural since no true to life human has been done in CG yet), or use anime
I fail to see the difference in CG and anime. Both are non-real, therefore both look unnatural. Not that that is a bad thing.
Posts: 2756 | Registered: Jul 2002
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I think there is a difference. Hand-drawn cartoon characters still bear the hand of human-touch. It's subtle, but it's palpable. CG doesn't quite do that.
technical splitting-of-hairs, but it seems important.
posted
Enders game, I can see as a real movie. The sets wouldn't be difficult, and there are a fair number of good child actors out there. But what about an Ender's shadow movie? Bean is supposed to be three in the beggining, and talking several langauges. Making the roving gangs of children look realistic would be even more difficult to do without anime. How would they be able to make the children look starving, and make you feel for them. This is just my opinion.
Posts: 34 | Registered: May 2005
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I think a few people have missed my point about child actors. I know there are litteraly thousands of child actors out there. The problem is finding GOOD child actors. Ones that can take on the roles of military commanders with complex feelings. Remember that EG rides almost completely on the intereactions of children. Jake Loyd acting won't cut it. Think of it as if Jake Loyd not only had to be a full Jedi with great light sabre skills, but also he would have to be able to command legions of clone troopers while doing it. That is more like what these kids are going to have to pull off in EG. The have to be convincing in human drama, battle room action, and sheer presence to portray command ability. You might find one or two kids who can do this right now if you are lucky. How many kids are just in Ender's Jeesh? Do you see where I am going here? I don't think child actors are going to cut it.
Posts: 12 | Registered: Mar 2005
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It's a troubling question, to be sure. The "adult-talking" younglings are difficult to resolve with any audience's perception of reality, (child-like and commiserating OR adult-like and smug)
Posts: 551 | Registered: Mar 2005
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Joshua, I didn't miss your point, I just disagree with it. For every one example you site (eh, Jake Loyd?) I can site another. (Henry Thomas). [and for the record, Jake Loyd is a talented actor]
Look at the Harry Potter movies; they are similar to Ender's Game in terms of what will be required for the child actors.
Posts: 2267 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
I think you just reinforced my point. Henry Thomas was in E.T. That was in 1982. You had to go back that far to name another decent child actor. Also, the Harry Potter kids were a lot older than the age of the ones to be used in EG. Just think of all the MAJOR characters that have to be children in this. Ender, Valentine, Peter, Han Tsu, Dink, Petra, Bonzo, Stillson, Bean, Shen, Bernard, etc.... ALL of those kids have to be as good as the best child actors are. You are not going to find that many. I hope I'm wrong. I want this movie to be great. Ender's Game is my favorite book of all time. I am just afraid the movie has too many problems to overcome.
Posts: 12 | Registered: Mar 2005
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I don't think they'll need that many good kid actors. It would make sense if the movie only concentrated on a few members of the jeesh and Ender's main story line. I don't know if even Peter & Valentine would have to be in it, or if they might just have small roles in the beginning.
I believe Ender contractually has to be played by a boy 12 or under. I don't know if the other kids have to be a specific age, but if the older kids are played by 15 year olds, a 12 year old Ender would seem much younger. And Bean could easily be played by a 10 year old boy would looks 6 or 7, since kid actors usually play much younger.
The key is going to be a great kids casting director, who knows kids and what type of kid to cast for the role. I hope the studio doesn't just go for name child actors and casts kids perfect for the role, like the Harry Potter casting.
What I really wonder is how long it will take Ender's Game if Ender is in almost every scene and kids can only film for about 4 hours a day. Maybe the adults' roles will have to be increased so that the film doesn't take a year to film.
Posts: 14 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Joshua: I think you just reinforced my point. Henry Thomas was in E.T. That was in 1982. You had to go back that far to name another decent child actor.
There have been great kid actors since ET, but few movies have been as well written or directed. The even best kid actor can't save a bad movie and not all directors can get a good performance from a child.
Posts: 14 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
I would prefer a well done Anime to live action, don't get me wrong I've seen some HORRIBLE anime's but the few good ones made up for it and kinda follow a similar concept to EG such as the Gundam spin off's. And if you ignore some of the goofiness even Naruto.
Now also consider that Anime at the very least would be far cheaper for the same results you still get your special effects, you could blend in CG to certain aspects such as any Space ships, Anime can portray real human emotion even better then humans in MHO. I'ld prefer either CG or Anime with a slight oreference to Anime. Now one question PLEASE tell me there will be no nudity!
Posts: 1567 | Registered: Oct 2004
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The difference between between me and you is that I don't judge a movie by its budget, box office take, foreign DVD sales, reviews, stars, studio or anything else. If I want to know if I movie's good, I go see it and judge for myself.
A quick check of the top 10 grossing movies of all time and the Oscar winners of the last 15 years reveals precious few of my favorite movies.
Even people who have almost the exact same taste in movies as me can't always recommend a movie. It's a totally subjective thing.
Also, if you really want a good idea how much money a movie makes, I recommend you read this article; http://slate.msn.com/id/2118819/
Bottom line - Anime is fine for a discussion, a flight of fancy, but it'll never happen. Major studio releases aren't anime. Major director's aren't attached to anime films. No matter how powerful and popular it is overseas, adults in the US aren't paying $7.50 to see EG in anime. Sorry guys.
OSC even says in one of the previous threads about the movie that the only reason it's finally getting made is that Peterson agreed to direct. That's the way hollywood works.
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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I don't want an anime EG. We'd get a 10 minute scene of people launching off battleroom walls with grimaces on their face (framed by perfect hair peaking out of the edge of the helmet, of course).
And all the while there'd be bad music playing.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
Okay, I think we've pretty much seen now that anime won't fly as the medium for EG. All of us want to see EG, but only 6 out of 16 people here were positive about having it made as an anime. Mostly from the comments I have read, it's because of the "cartoon" stereotype. Those that didn't fit into that catagory mostly haven't seen enough good anime, or have and just don't like it. After all, not everyone likes Braveheart either (sad but true.)I still can't think of a way to do it other than anime and not completely mess it up. The sad reality though is that even a not great live action movie would most likely out gross a awesome anime.
Posts: 12 | Registered: Mar 2005
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Joshua, seriously, stop assuming that just because some of us don't like what you like it is because we just haven't been exposed to it. Consider the fact that we just don't like it, period, not because of stereotypes, not because we are less educated. But because we frankly don't think it's that great, and we don't think it would be a good way to tell the story of Ender's Game.
posted
In the original post, you cite Jar Jar Binks, Yoda, and Gollum as the only purely-CG characters we have examples of in movies. This is simply not true--remember the horribly-written-but-beautiful Final Fantasy movie? The entire thing was CG, good enough to fool the mind if you didn't think about it in some instances. And if that's the quality we had four years ago, imagine now, with computers as powerful as they are. We may not get such a thing for this movie, but somewhere down the line, perhaps if we are lucky, we can get a miniseries-type deal going and have the book translated as it should be, containing most(if not all) of the book's events, such as Peter and Valentine's subplots.
Posts: 57 | Registered: Apr 2005
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