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Author Topic: On the Messiah in Judaism
Tante Shvester
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If you click my name at the left, you can see my profile and learn more about me!
quote:
Profile for Tante Shvester
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Location: New Jersey
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Homepage: http://tinyurl.com/9xbdk
Interests: Mitzvos!

Or you can read it right here!
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rivka
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Darnit, Tom.

GET OUT of my head!

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rivka
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quote:
Originally posted by Bob_Scopatz:
I'd be curious to see a list of Scripture references that Jews consider to be "messianic."

Here are some.
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TomDavidson
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quote:
while I generally respect Hatrack I'm somewhat midly surprised that there hasn't been a single attempt to refute his view on this matter
That's because his view is ridiculous, Blayne, and to treat it seriously would be to treat it with more respect than it deserves. Moreover, the people who are most qualified to discuss why it's ridiculous would have to tread carefully to avoid insulting other potential readers, since Scriptural interpretation is often a matter of religious doctrine. And since he's not even a member of this site, it's not worth the risk.

------

As for the Left Behind reference: your friend is an apocalypse nut. The Left Behind series is a very poorly written but sadly very successful series that panders to that demographic while pretending to scriptural authority.

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Bob_Scopatz
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Thanks rivka!
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Blayne Bradley
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Aren't most Christians apocalypse nuts? I've seen god knows how many christians pretty much all say "oh the world won't last any longer then... [insert random number from 50-1000 years].

*sigh* I geuss I simply don't understand the religious nature of the matter enough. And probly never will.

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dkw
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Stephen, your finacee would not be ostracized in any United Methodist church I have been in. In the vast majority of UM churches she would be welcomed at whatever level she chose to participate. In fact, one of the organists at the church I serve is part of a mixed-faith (Jewish-Methodist) couple.

However -- it's always possible that a particular congregation or pastor won't approve. That would be a local thing not based on anything official in the denomination. And there might be some church members who would try to convert you and/or the kids if they got the chance. Most of them, though, will just be curious. They might ask you to come speak to an adult Sunday School class about Jewish beliefs.

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Bob_Scopatz
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quote:
Aren't most Christians apocalypse nuts? I've seen god knows how many christians pretty much all say "oh the world won't last any longer then... [insert random number from 50-1000 years].

Blayne..NO! Absolutely NOT!

Granted, there are denominations that seem to make a particular issue of the end times, and the number of days between now and THEN. But this is not true of most Christian denominations.

Let alone most Christians.

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Blayne Bradley
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Ic.
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Bob_Scopatz
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BB:

If you are are getting that impression from people you are hanging around with, might I suggest finding some other people to interact with. Especially if you are interested in learning about Christianity.

Even if not. I got the impression this is some sort of campus group. Is that right? Some ...most...of these groups are probably just fine. A bunch of fun people who wanted to start a group for Christians.

But there are some real nut jobs around campuses, and some of them start quasi-religious organizations. They are often quite charismatic. Friendly and accepting, etc., etc. Some of them are extremely dangerous individuals and groups.

They very often have a lot to say about the end of the world.

Not every religious person concerned about the end times is a nut job, necessarily, but I get VERY worried about the ones who seem to crop up with disturbing frequency around college campuses.

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Lyrhawn
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quote:
My understanding, based on study primarily rooted in Christianity, is that Messiah was a Jewish concept.
From what I've read in history classes, Zoroastrian concepts of the Messiah predate Jewish and Christian concepts by several centuries.

See: Saoshyant .

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Blayne Bradley
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My friend is most definatly NOT a nutjob in any way shape or form, just doesn't think for whatever reason he found in the bible that humanity will survive very long. He doesnt spread it he only said it one or twice when I talk about Isaac Asimov or scifi.

The "group" is the official Christian Fellowship for John Abbott College just as there is a Muslim, jewish, pagan, anime, outdoor adventure clubs + a school newspaper.

They're very nice people, moreso then the anime/pagan (they share the room) club which talk about me behind my back [Mad] .

I dont wanna learn about christianity except as a means of learning how to debunk creationalism. I just simply like getting into these discussions though just for their intellectual value.

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Lisa
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quote:
Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
quote:
My understanding, based on study primarily rooted in Christianity, is that Messiah was a Jewish concept.
From what I've read in history classes, Zoroastrian concepts of the Messiah predate Jewish and Christian concepts by several centuries.

See: Saoshyant .

That might actually be a precursor to the modifications that Christians made to the original concept. Zoroastrianism and Mithraism, while opposing one another, are from the same region, and Constantine was certainly into the latter.

But neither the Zoroastrian or Christian ideas of "saviors" have any parallel in Judaism.

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Lisa
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quote:
Originally posted by Blayne Bradley:
My friend is most definatly NOT a nutjob in any way shape or form, just doesn't think for whatever reason he found in the bible that humanity will survive very long. He doesnt spread it he only said it one or twice when I talk about Isaac Asimov or scifi.

Nutjobs don't have to drool, Blayne. And they don't have to be nutjobs about everything. I'm sure that many people here on Hatrack think I'm a nutjob, at least when it comes to certain issues, and I'm sure that by their standards, I am.

It's not a nice thing to say, but the guy's rant was kind of incoherant, you know? Maybe refer him to the Jews for Judaism site. They've been fencing with missionaries for a long time, and all of his garble will probably be answered there. It's just... after 2000 years, it gets kind of tiring. You know?

quote:
Originally posted by Blayne Bradley:
They're very nice people, moreso then the anime/pagan (they share the room) club which talk about me behind my back [Mad] .

Cleancut and all. I know. We had the Inter-Varsity Christian Fellowship when I was in college. They're quite convinced that everyone but themselves are going to burn in hellfire for all eternity. The nicer of them regret that.

quote:
Originally posted by Blayne Bradley:
I dont wanna learn about christianity except as a means of learning how to debunk creationalism. I just simply like getting into these discussions though just for their intellectual value.

Fair enough. But it's new to you. It's tedious to some of us, and there are resources for that stuff.
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Stephan
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Blayne, one thing I recommend is to read those verses yourself, and the verses leading up to them. Form your own conclusions. Some of those verses when read as a single sentence can easily lead one to think they are a prophecy about Jesus. When reading the surrounding verses and chapters you can see how they have been taken out of context by some.

Lisa is right, there is a lot of information on the web. Another Jewish resourse besides Jews for Judaism is www.messiahtruth.com.

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Blayne Bradley
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kk. I understand.
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Occasional
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Its "Creationism," and ironically it is based on interpretations of originally Jewish Scripture; having no basis in the Christian New Testament.
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Stephan
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quote:
Originally posted by Tante Shvester:
You want to know a super cool thing about Kohanim? They have been able to genetically test to confirm that they really do descend from a common ancestor. When I read about that several years ago, it just knocked my socks off.

Saw in the Washington Post this morning that 60% of Ashkenazi women have been found to descend from 1 of 4 women.
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Tante Shvester
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quote:
Originally posted by Stephan:
Saw in the Washington Post this morning that 60% of Ashkenazi women have been found to descend from 1 of 4 women.

Sarah, Rivka, Rachel, and Leah!
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Lisa
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quote:
Originally posted by Tante Shvester:
quote:
Originally posted by Stephan:
Saw in the Washington Post this morning that 60% of Ashkenazi women have been found to descend from 1 of 4 women.

Sarah, Rivka, Rachel, and Leah!
Except... unless Rachel and Leah were half-sisters, you'd think they'd have come up with three women, no? I'm going to posit Ruth as the fourth.
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Stephan
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Well the article said they come from different times, one of which was about 2000 years ago.
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Tante Shvester
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quote:
I'm going to posit Ruth as the fourth.
Sounds fine to me!
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Shmuel
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quote:
Originally posted by Tante Shvester:
quote:
Originally posted by Stephan:
Saw in the Washington Post this morning that 60% of Ashkenazi women have been found to descend from 1 of 4 women.

Sarah, Rivka, Rachel, and Leah!
Rachel, Leah, Bilha, Zilpa seems more likely. (Descendants of all the above would also have Sarah and Rivka as ancestors.)

[ETA: I'd missed Stephan's followup about them living in different times. Never mind!]

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Stephan
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Wouldn't Rachel, Leah, and Sara have a common female ancestor? Were Leah and Rachel cousins of Isaac on Sara or Abraham's side?
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Minerva
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When I was in college, the Intervarsity Christian Fellowship people were...aggressive missionaries. They once dropped off pamplets when a bunch of us were lighting candles and playing dreidel in a dorm kitchen. That takes some chutzpah.

Of course, that was one group at one school, so I can't make a general statement.

Oh, and they once put some literature about promiscuity on one of my friend's doors because she spent the night alone with a man and one of them saw it.

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Blayne Bradley
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I like the story of Ruth, from the perspective of Isaac Asimov, basically it means you shouldn't be racist or prejudiced.
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TomDavidson
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quote:
I like the story of Ruth, from the perspective of Isaac Asimov, basically it means you shouldn't be racist or prejudiced.
*blink* Huh? Is Isaac Asimov now an authority on the Bible?
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Blayne Bradley
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He did an article on it in one of his science books, one of the ones that have several articles together. This one also mentions how books make the best tape players and his trip to the bahamas.
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Dagonee
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quote:
I dont wanna learn about christianity except as a means of learning how to debunk creationalism. I just simply like getting into these discussions though just for their intellectual value.
You might find you get much more intellectual value out of discussions in which you are not merely seeking ammunition for a personal cause.
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Tante Shvester
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
*blink* Huh? Is Isaac Asimov now an authority on the Bible?

Asimov, I believe, felt that he was an authority on everything. His bibliography includes several books on the Bible.
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TomDavidson
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Well, yes. But what he thought he was an authority on and what he actually was an authority on are two different things. I've never had a theology class cite Asimov to me. [Smile]
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Tante Shvester
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I completely agree. I just think that his bibliography is a hoot. History, literature. ALL the sciences, theology, whatever. If he had read an article about it, he figured he was an expert, and might as well write a book so that everyone else would have the benefit of his expertise. I was hugely impressed with him and his out-sized opus when I was, what? in 5th grade. Now, not so much so.
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Blayne Bradley
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*GASP* *SHARP INTACK OF BREATH* *EXPLODES*

Asimov is the God of Science Fiction. I've read alot of his quasi personal science articles and I think I've learned more from then from 8 years in Government Education.

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Tante Shvester
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Hey! What's all this schmutz laying around here? Oh! Eww! Blayne asploded.

Anyone got a mop?

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Lisa
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"A skeleton walks into a bar and asks the bartender for a beer and a mop."
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Tante Shvester
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A naked man walks into a bar. The bartender says "Hey -- we can't serve you. You're not wearing anything."

The man goes out to his car and gets his jumper cables and deftly wraps and drapes them over his exposed parts. He returns to the bar.

"Now can you serve me?"

"OK. But don't start anything up."

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Lisa
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A sandwich walks into a bar. The bartender says, "Sorry, we don't serve food here."

Rene Descartes walks into a bar. The bartender asks him, "Can I get you a beer?" Descarte says, "I think not," and disappears.

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Tante Shvester
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A priest, a rabbi, and an imam walk into a bar. The bartender asks, "Is this some kind of a joke?"
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Lisa
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Wow. You win.
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Tante Shvester
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[Big Grin] Lisa, I have never, ever, ever heard you use those words!
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Lisa
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<laugh> There's a first time for everything.
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Blayne Bradley
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Oh I can beat those! My Professor in College is Jewish so he told me this joke, apparently he married a Quebecois Catholic woman and was in her Church with her one day and the other people in the congregation are all asking why doesn't he convert to Catholism and etc etc, and his reply is: "Well, the thing is is that there's only one other Jew in the room and he's nailed against the wall."

Another joke from my highschool teacher is this: "There's a jew in a bar and he's having a drink so a Evangelist walks in (Don't know why he's in a bar >_<) and starts asking the jew if he's read the New Testament and the jew goes "I'm sorry I don't much like sequels."

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Tante Shvester
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Blayne? Is that you? I thought you 'sploded.
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Blayne Bradley
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Luckily I have several clone bodies who I can transfer my soul to.
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Tante Shvester
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Like Sid?
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Blayne Bradley
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Sid? I was thinking more of a mix of Hohenheim from Full Metal Alchemist and some demonic wizards from Forgetten Realms.
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Tante Shvester
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Sid.
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Blayne Bradley
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oooooh ya, Model 6965.....
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rivka
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A man walked into a bar.

Ow.

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Lisa
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<wince> Nice.
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