posted
He's making me crazy. Worse, he's driving the staff at school nuts.
Back up...last year, kindergarten. He was only in class for 2 1/2 hours a day, and was getting in so much trouble he didn't even want to go anymore. He'd even cry when it was time to go. Adding to the frustration level was the fact that I wasn't allowed to even stand in the hall and observe while class was in session, so I couldn't really be sure what was going on. It got so bad that I pulled him out of school after Christmas and homeschooled him for the rest of the year.
Over the summer, we moved to a new school district. He was doing SO much better, up until February or so...
Today, the principal called me. Two weeks ago, he got in trouble on the playground for throwing rocks at one of the other children. She sent a slip home for me to sign and return, and suspended his recess for a week. He sat out the first day, but hasn't since.
Last Friday, he had to serve a day of ISS because of this. His teacher reminded him this morning, right before lunch, that he HAD to sit out recess for the rest of the week. Well, he ate lunch and went outside. At least 7 children reminded him to go to the office, and he refused. So, after lunch, he was called to the principal's office. Then she called me at work. He's getting a spanking at school as we speak.
His behaviour has deteriorated at home too. Is he just not mature enough to handle his grade level? Is he mad at me for working so much? Is he more upset about the new baby than he's letting on? ::sigh::
Only 4 more weeks of work, baby's due in 5 weeks, school's out in 6 1/2. Maybe this will work itself out over the summer...or maybe I'm just sick of being away from my kids. Maybe I shouldn't work at all next season. Maybe I shouldn't send them to school after this year either. He was *so* much happier and easier to get along with over the summer last year. I just don't know...
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I used to get in serious trouble CONSTANTLY when I was a kid, and I turned out okay. I think. All the way up to high school. Never got arrested, so don't worry.
Posts: 2258 | Registered: Aug 2003
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quote: Adding to the frustration level was the fact that I wasn't allowed to even stand in the hall and observe while class was in session, so I couldn't really be sure what was going on.
Stupid schools.
I would homeschool, Boon. I really would. If at all financially possible for you, then I would consider this. Your kids will probably also need more time with you, especially when the baby comes along.
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(((Boon))) I don't have any kids, so all i can offer is hugs. I hope it all works out.
Posts: 4569 | Registered: Dec 2003
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Boon
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No, it's a public school. I signed a slip at the beginning of the year, but attached a restriction: I MUST be notified in advance and given the opportunity to attend and/or reject the punishment.
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I've *never* heard of a public school doing that. I must be out of the loop.
I don't know, Boon. I think it sounds like your son would be better off with you, or at least outside of a school that...for some reason...can't enforce a child going to the pricinpal's office? In elementary school, our teacher's took us from class to class, and out to recess...how is it that your son went to recess in the first place? Why wouldn't a teacher have forbidden him to accompany?
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Wow, spankings in a public school! I didn't know that was still possible.
I don't have kids, either, so my opinion isn't worth much... but I think PSI has a good point. Usually I'm not a huge supporter of home schooling, mainly because of socialization and independence issues, but he's so young that I doubt he'd be missing out on much in the public school system. And you'd have plenty of time to reintroduce him to the system once he does grow out of these problems he has with school. It might give him a better foundation in life than this unpleasant school situation would give him. I don't know.
Posts: 2220 | Registered: Jun 1999
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Boon, I don't understand. He has consequences at school (no recess for a week), but they don't follow through to make sure that he takes consequence? They don't enforce their rules? Or do they expect the kids to just police themselves? If so, it sounds to me like your kid is definitely worth keeping -- he doesn't follow rules just to follow them. He tries to find out why they exist and tests them constantly. That's a smart kid.
Two things really alarm me about this school -- the first is above (consequences that are not followed through, with spanking as the only punishment actually administered); the second: they won't let you observe the class in session? If this is a general policy they have, and if it were my child, I would pull him out of the school immediately. Today. There is too much room for abuse and no way to know who is telling the truth.
(Btw, my son's school still has corporal punishment, but if they administer it more than once or twice a year, that's rare. I don't advocate spanking, largely because I think it's a fairly ineffective discipline technique, but figure with the guidelines this school has on its use, it won't do much harm. I'm alarmed by how your school is choosing to administer it.)
Posts: 5948 | Registered: Jun 2001
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Boon
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The whole "not letting me observe class" thing was at the old school. Not this one.
He was reminded every day before lunch to go to the office when he was finished eating. Heck, *I* reminded him every morning too. The kids are watched while they are in the cafeteria, and when they're finished eating, they get up, dump their trays, and go outside. There are teachers out there too. They're not unsupervised.
So, he was reminded every day and still refused to go. He was told if he didn't, he'd get ISS. BTW, he HATED that! But it wasn't enough to get him to sit out recess today. So he got paddled.
Ya know, if I tell him to clean his room and he doesn't do it, I don't jump right to spanking either. But I WILL do it if I need to.
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What does that mean, In School Suspension? What do they do with him if he's in school, but suspended?
Posts: 5948 | Registered: Jun 2001
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I remember one time in the seventh grade I got a solid week of ISS for possession of "Fart Spray" because, inexplicably, it qualified as a minor bomb.
Posts: 2258 | Registered: Aug 2003
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Boon
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Yep, he had to sit in the office all day and do his school work there. Lunch was brought in. No friends, no toys, no fun.
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So what will he miss in the last five-six weeks of 1st grade if you pull him out now? Will they refuse to promote him to 2nd if you choose to pull him out "to see what it troubling him?" Or will they gladly say "take him home from now until through summer and see how things go?"
My son was like this in K-1. The principal once said to me that my son was the ONLY kid he ever had at that age that didn't give in to the ISS -- he would sit in the office all day, more than one day at a time, and not to a fricking thing. Didn't matter to him that he was out of class, away from the other kids, or couldn't do recess or spend time with them at lunch. He preferred to be alone. So he just sat in the office. And sat. and sat. Didn't help him a bit.
Yeah, I pulled him out and homeschooled him, mainly because I realized I really needed to know what made him "tick" a lot deeper than what I thought I knew -- so I could figure out how he thinks and how to help.
You'll get through this okay, Boon. Hang in there. My kids are now all older teens -- we made it through those rough years.
posted
I'd be careful about homeschooling right now. He does need to learn how to act in socially acceptable ways while you are not around. Maybe it's maturity... who knows, but if he's generally been doing alright this year, you might give it some more time before making your decision. Good luck!
Posts: 22 | Registered: Mar 2004
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Ah. That makes more sense. It sounds like this school has a lot more on the ball than I thought originally.
My suggestion: Ask the school to stop reminding him, and don't remind him yourself. He's smarter than the average bear. Reminders may have one or two messages to him: 1. I'm not smart enough to remember what the consequences are even though you told me what they were. 2. Every time you remind me, you're trying to take all the control; I'm going to do everything in my power to show you how little actual control you have over me.
Next, when he has made a bad choice (as in, going to recess instead of the office), be empathetic about the consequences. "Oh, honey, that's so sad. That was a bad choice. I always feel sad when I make a bad choice too," said with a hug. I know it sounds hokey, but it works. When he sees you're on his side without excusing his behavior, there is no reason to keep making his own life miserable.
So when he gets home today, don't say anything about the paddling unless he brings it up. He already took his punishment. He understands why he got it. (Though if you're not sure he does, you could ask him some gentle questions like, "Why do you think that happened?" and if it seems like he's just being unusually dense and wanting to put the responsibility off on someone else, you could say "Well, honey, if you can't figure it out by tomorrow, let me know and we'll talk about it more.")
If he brings it up, be empathetic, but don't excuse his behavior or choices and don't lay any responsibility on the school. He was warned...he made his choice, and he had his consequence. He will have to decide if he wants to make his life hard or easy. And if he can learn that in 1st grade, he's WAY ahead of the game.
From what you've described, he sounds like a real keeper -- I like him already. Posts: 5948 | Registered: Jun 2001
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Boon, I remember that awhile back, there was trouble between you and your husband, and that for some time you thought that the relationship might be ending. I have no idea what's going on with that relationship now, of course--it could be that the problems have been worked through, and that the relationship is healthier than ever. If it isn't, though, it's possible that your son's acting out could be related to his perception of trouble at home. Does that seem like a possibility?
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Boon
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Things are mostly worked out on that issue, thank you for asking. I don't think home issues involving that are the issue...if it IS home issues, I think it would be more along the lines of the new baby, me working, or, well, I don't really know what else...
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As far as socialization goes, there have been numerous studies that indicate that early homeschooling actually IMPROVES long-term social skills, rather than hinder them. The emphasis is on the word long-term. You may see a homeschooled kid that doesn't seem to fit in well, but it's not necessarily because they aren't socializing. It's more because they have a better grasp of who they really are, and tend not to "go with the flow" and just do whatever their peers do.
posted
In addition to my previous post, I'd have to say that if socialization means fitting in with some of the mini-gorillas that attend the schools around me, I'd rather my kids be complete outcasts.
Posts: 6367 | Registered: Aug 2003
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I'm glad that you've worked through that situation! I've been wondering about that.
Have you tried sitting him down and asking him why he's doing what he's doing? With some kids I've known that would work wonderfully, and with others it wouldn't work at all.
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
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SW, I'm pretty sure there aren't any circumstances under which rock throwing during school recess is okay.
At home, outside, yeah, I can see it. (A couple of summers ago, I took a couple of neighbor boys to task for throwing rocks at -- and striking -- one of the boy's little sisters. In retrospect, I should have stayed out of it -- she started it and had the natural consequence of not only having bad aim, but picking the wrong people to throw rocks at. I should have stayed out of it.)
Posts: 5948 | Registered: Jun 2001
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Boon
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All I can seem to get is "I'm sorry, Mom. I just don't know." Tearful. Emotional. Poor guy.
Not that he gets out of trouble that way or anything, though.
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SW, I'm pretty sure there aren't any circumstances under which rock throwing during school recess is okay.
jeniwren: You have a very limited imagination, then.
Little boys are ALWAYS taught to take care of themselves. It is just the way they are treated and socialized. Protection of boys is not a high priority.
If other kids were throwing rocks at him, or otherwise attacking him, self-defense rock throwing (IMHO) is perfectly acceptable.
Of course, the best alternative would be for him to go to a teacher and have that teacher put an end to it.
But boys are not encouraged to go to a teacher for self defense reasons, first of all.
Second, maybe they had him cornered, and he couldn't get help.
Third, the teacher would have probably ignored his plea for help (been there). So, maybe he had to take care of things himself.
Posts: 524 | Registered: May 2003
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YEAH! Why is it that teachers always tell you to come to them before taking matters into your own hands, but then if you come to them, they tell you to sort your own problems out? What's up wi' that?
Posts: 6367 | Registered: Aug 2003
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Most adults like to think they can solve any problem. But sometimes the solution takes some effort to achieve!! At that point, most of us, (including teachers) take the easy way out and just ignore it, until the kids take matters into their own hands.
Of course, we're really good at dishing out the "spankings" when that happens. Hey, it's easier to make some kid sit out recess or get a 30-second spanking than it is to actually spend a half hour and try to prevent the problem in the first place. Posts: 524 | Registered: May 2003
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Boon, Is there a chance your son has a learning difficulty he is trying to hide with his poor behavior? This might be unconscious or conscious, but lots of kids get themselves into a behavioral box they can't get themselves out of. Everyone expects them to misbehave, and they get to a point where it feels uncomfortable to get positive feedback.They don't know how else to behave, because no one(and I am not implying you here) has actually explicitly told them that throwing rocks is not OK, and why. Or, he could get that throwing rocks AT someone is wrong, but gleefully throws rocks at a playground target, thinking he is doing the right thing.
It sounds like the teachers are expecting him to know things that he just doesn't know. Because no one is telling him, he is just doing things, and seeing what reaction he gets. The reason he is so comfortable at home might be that he knows what you expect, and feels safe with you.
It is very hard for me to hear that a person other than you is putting their hands on your child, though. I know that corporal punishment is still around in some states, but my blood is boiling just thinking about someone hitting my child.
Posts: 10890 | Registered: May 2003
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I'm a spanker. But I do *not* want anyone else spanking my child. That's just weird. Of course, your prerogative. I don't intend to criticize you, Boon.
I completely hear where you are coming from. Luckily, my Christopher seems to be on a turn-around, but he had a Very Tough Time with Kindergarten in the beginning of the year (there is a thread around here about it somewhere). We were very lucky to have a nurturing set of teachers (Christopher requires hugging, it's like food) and a good school counselor who took the time to talk things out with us and create an action plan to help modify his behavior.
I said that to say this: I know how heartbreaking it is to hear your child say that he doesn't know WHY (and have him honestly mean it, not just trying to get out of consequences) and with the crying and everything. Ugh. When Christopher does the fake crying, I am totally unsympathetic, but when he honestly doesn't know why he is doing a thing, I can see how frustrated he is, and it makes me very sad. Poor monkeys. They are trying so hard to be humans!
I also echo wanting to know the 'why' behind the rock throwing, though. Of course it is Never Appropriate To Hit Someone (that's how I say it at home), sometimes, well, there's a reason. Not an excuse, a reason. Hmm.
Hang in there, Boon. There is some good advice in this thread. I wish I had some, too. I just can only give you hugs. (((Boon))) There. That's all I got.
Posts: 1545 | Registered: May 2002
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Going one step further than Elizabeth, have you thought about having your son see the school counselor or special education team?
From the pattern, I've seen -
- Constantly in trouble at kindergarten, with a day limited to only 2.5 hours.
- The behavior and unwillingness to go became so bad that you had to switch schools
- The behavior corrected temporarily, but has again begun to decline
- He's been violent, rebellious, and unwilling to accept blame or punishment for his actions
- His behavior has deteriorated at home, too
- When questioned, he doesn't seem to understand what the problem is. As you put it he just "doesn't know".
As a teacher, all of these things are throwing up big red flags. This is not to say there is a learning disability or any other problem, but there are enough indicators that I would suggest having him evaluated by the school counselor, psychologist or child study team.
There could be a hundred reasons why he is acting out, and traditional methods of behavior adjustment might just exacerbate the situation. Pulling him from one school to the next, or pulling him out to a home school environment is not helping the situation either, as he is not being allowed to develop a sense of stability in his environment.
Please, please, please have him talk to someone who could determine whether there are deepter issues at work. Even if there's nothing there, you'll at least have ruled that out. And if there *is* something there, there are definite strategies you can use to solve (or ease) the problem.
Now, I don't know anything about the events concerning you and your husband, but that may also have had an effect on him. He may need counseling to work through his feelings toward the both of you, or towards his new school.
What I'm saying is, don't try to solve this on your own. There are plenty of outlets for help, and his problems just *may* be deeper than you know, or easily corrected in ways you have not yet thought of.
Posts: 106 | Registered: Apr 2004
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(Actually, that's not true, I do spank until they're old enough to reason verbally, then I stop. My view on this is that sometimes an instantaneous punishment such as spanking is warranted for things like running away from a parent into a street with a car coming. If a child doesn't talk, then they have to have their views corrected another way, immediately. As soon as can reason, then the spankings cease which is usually 2-3 years of age.)
And like jexx, I don't have an issue with people who choose to spank. I don't even disagree. For me, however, my tactic has worked well for me.
But, like jexx, I think it's strange to ever let anyone other than me lay a hand on my child. A parent is a parent for a reason. Let the school punish in any other way they want. The physical punishments belong to me -- And I choose not to do it that way.
[ April 05, 2004, 10:48 PM: Message edited by: Trogdor the Burninator ]
Posts: 1481 | Registered: Mar 2003
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I am also really surprised that a public school allows spankings. To be honest, a part of me is impressed. I know that schools used to do this in previous generations, but it is seems to be really frowned upon now. I think that sometimes a "good spanking" can speak volumes to a certain children in certain circumstances. I don't side with the belief that you must never spank a child, and I admire that the school has the "guts" to go against what I thought was a societal taboo.
Has anyone here read "Starship Troopers"? That book had an interesting perspective on corporal punishment. I don't fully agree with it, but I find it very interesting. Heinlein basically puts forth the idea that corporal punishment is the secret to a utopia society. Well, that is a gross exaggeration of what he says, but he presents some interesting ideas about the effect of "pain" on learning. He suggests that a criminal would be less likely to break the law if his punishment were a public flogging than if it were jail time. I honestly don't know how much (if any) truth there is to that.
Anyway, off of the tangent, you mentioned homeschooling. My sister-in-law has a child with strong behavioral problems and she has started out with homeschooling, using techniques tailored to his special needs. It has done him a lot of good, and she is now easing him into public schooling. I hear he is doing quite well. It seems that her decision has been a very good thing for him. But I have no way of knowing if it would be helpful in your situation.
Sorry I can't be of more help! Our oldest, our son, is a bit of a handful himself and I worry about him when he enters school this next year. He is very strong-willed with an overactive sense of "justice". I am so worried that he will be a bully! Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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I am surprised that there are schools that still do it, but not surprised that the schools which do are in the midwest <grin>....
Sometimes I can see where it can send a strong message to a child (like the time I got swatted at school for climbing up above the stalls in the girls' rest room -- believe me, I never did THAT again).
But other times.....there was the kid in our class named Brent (I think -- it was primary school -- long time ago). He got sent the principal for paddling with the big paddle at least once per day. Sometimes more. Over and over.
Obviously, it wasn't helping this guy. When the discpline tool quits becoming effective, they need to quit using it. This kid ended up getting paddled for every little offense, and blamed for everything that went wrong.
Then one day he never came back to school. I never heard what happened to him, and always wondered.
posted
First let me say thanks for the advice and encouragement.
Here's what happened yesterday after school:
I picked the kiddos up. On the way home, like always, we had the "How was your day? Did you learn anything?" conversation. I heard nothing new. Dan chose his words carefully, and only told me about the trouble he got into in the classroom. I think this is because he had already read what's in the folder he had to bring home yesterday. (They send it home every week to be signed and returned.)
When we got home, I asked both of the kids if they had homework, told them to go change and put their backpacks away. I asked them both if there was anything else they wanted to tell me about school. Dan said, "No" and immediately turned tail for his room. I called him back and sent them both outside to play.
After dinner, I sat down on the couch to read for a while. Jen went to her room to play dress-up, and Dan fetched his current book and crawled up on my lap to read.
"Dan?"
"Yeah?"
"I know what happened in the principal's office today."
Pout.
"I'm sad that you got in trouble for your choices. I'm very sad that you didn't tell me yourself. I'm here if you want to talk about it, okay?"
"Okay, Mom. I love you."
"I love you too."
That's it. He didn't want to talk about it.
I called the principal this afternoon, and he sat out lunch recess. Maybe this one's over...
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Boon, far be it from me to criticize the way you're handling this, but I still think you should have him evaluated by a school (or outside) psychologist.
This is the way I read your last update:
- He was closed about the trouble he got into, and only told you because he knew you'd find out through the weekly report. - He did not tell you anything about his punishment. - When it was revealed that you knew, he still was closed about talking about it. - No resolution was achieved regarding future behavior. - No indication was given that he understood *why* what he did was wrong or *why* he was punished.
If something else happens (and, I have a gut feeling this should be "when something else happens"), what then?
Now, it seems to me that the school is aware that your son is having a problem and that they have already implemented a form of behavior modification (the weekly signature sheet). Have they suggested any other steps to you? Have you asked if any other steps can be taken to see if there are deeper issues at work?
Posts: 106 | Registered: Apr 2004
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Boon
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posted
The weekly signature sheet is for all the kids, from the beginning of the year.
And...you were right, it was "when", not "if".
This time, though...I don't know.
Here's what the note the principal sent home said:
"4 strikes before noon (1 said he was going to beat up (one little boy) at daycare, 2 talking while I was trying to read, 3 pretending he had a gun after I told not to ever do it again and 4 hit (another little boy) in the forehead) I gave him a choice of missing recess and PE tomorrow or swats. He chose missing recess & PE but then didn't sit out even after classmates told him to. Then he lied to (principal) and said he didn't know he had to sit out.
Action taken by principal:
Held conference with student Called parent (no answer) Gave 2 swats
Sign and return"
First I talk to Dan.
1. He said that (first little boy) is the one who said he was going to beat Dan up, and that another student was the witness and was wrong on who said what. (For what it's worth, I've heard said child threaten a little girl while I was on a field trip with the class.)
2. Yes, he was talking while the teacher was reading to the class. He interrupted her to ask a question about the story, and got in trouble.
3. Didn't happen. Same witness as #1.
4. Says he brushed the top of (boy's) head...was not meaning to hit him, and didn't touch anything but his hair.
He said he thought that since he was missing PE the NEXT day, not today, that that's which recess he was supposed to miss too. And he said he had to sit in the office for the rest of the school day, which was not on the note.
Okay, but I'm not just going to take his word.
So I call the teacher.
She didn't SEE anything but #2, she just took the other children's word for it. She admitted that he could have been confused about which day to sit out.
Okay, I know my child can be a handful, but come on. Extreme for some not-so-reliable eyewitness testimony?
::sigh::
So then, I have to call the principal. You see, I have no real problem with him getting swats at school. HOWEVER, I must be notified! I wasn't home, and they never tried to call my husband's cell phone. They can't just spank him without talking to me. Attempting isn't good enough.
She got kinda snotty with me. I wasn't saying she couldn't do it, just that she couldn't do it without talking to me first. She said she didn't have time to pull his file every time he got in trouble, and his home number is the only one he knows. WHAT!?! You can hit a child but you "don't have time" to pull his file to see if you can?!?
I'm so upset over this, I didn't even take the kids to school for the rest of the week. I'm definitely going to start homeschooling them again over the summer, and they are NOT going back next year. But what to do about the rest of this year? It's less than 3 more weeks, but I don't want them there at all. But they want to go.
::sigh:: I don't need this right now.
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Dealing with kids' schools can be incredibly stressful. And the timing is awful!
I've had one in and out all year, and now he's somewhere else for the last month and a half of school. After one week, so far so good. But even if it goes ok till the end of the year, no idea yet what we're doing then.
And every time the phone rings during school hours, I tense -- even though this school hasn't had to call once.
Have you thought about the evaluation Cow recommended? Mine's in therapy, and although getting him in, and taking care of each step along the way has been major headaches, it does seem to be helping him.
The teacher says he just needs to control himself better. Like he likes getting in trouble all the time.
The principal says lots of boys go through this, and he'll grow out of it.
The counsellor says he's normal, just impulsive.
They won't help me.
I can't afford private counselling.
I've contacted DHS. No help there without a diagnosis.
His doctor (assigned by HMO) won't refer him.
Truly, I think he's just not as mature as his peers. He's bright. He's funny. And they're right, he has trouble controlling his impulsiveness.
He also needs lots of one-on-one. He gets a lot at home, but it's just not possible for him to get that at school. It's not that he has trouble learning, but he needs attention a LOT. Which, come to think of it, is probably why he's in trouble so much.
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You know, I normally HATE home schooling. I think its a terrible idea. But in this situation... public school is worse.
Oh yeah, and sue the school. If the permission you gave them required your consent, they are so far out of line in terms of the law, that you can probably get the principal fired... and she SHOULD be fired.
Posts: 4112 | Registered: May 2001
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Sheesh! And I thought the hoops we had to jump through at one of the local agencies (where we pay almost nothing, thanks to their sliding scale) were bad.
I hope homeschooling works well for you. (((((Boon)))))
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Stupid schools.![[Smile]](smile.gif)
That's a smart kid. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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Poor monkeys. They are trying so hard to be humans!![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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I wasn't saying she couldn't do it, just that she couldn't do it without talking to me first. She said she didn't have time to pull his file every time he got in trouble, and his home number is the only one he knows. WHAT!?! You can hit a child but you "don't have time" to pull his file to see if you can?!?![[Dont Know]](graemlins/dontknow.gif)
