posted
For those of you who know where the thread title came from, this rant is not a political one. Sorry.
*Supresses urge to kill*
So, Liam turned five today. I made the cupcake party circuit, and then we went to Cartersville to meet the in-laws halfway so they could give him presents. Mark, my brother-in-law, also attended. Mark is also friends with some of my younger friends. We all had some outings together and separately this past weekend.
One of these friends is about to go to seminary, and is currently sharingan appartment with a significant other. My mother-in-law knows this.
Here's the part that made me angry... She asked me if my friend was going to leave out some of the Commandments when it came time to be a pastor. This was after asking what denomination, etc., which was suspicious, since she already knew.
Ron immediately started clowning, trying to name all 10 commandments and failing amusingly, but it didn't quite help me not be pissed. It did help me not confront her for being a hag.
Two things bothered me about this snide little question of hers :
she was talking about adultery http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=adultery which by any literal or traditional application of the word doesn't really apply, since neither of my friends are married to someone else. I know that's nit-picky, and I'm sure some of you here will disagree. But I'm right. Nyah,
The second thing is that it is none of her damned business what any two people she hardly knows do or don't do behind closed doors. I do not know that my friends are playing footsie, though I have sort of assumed they have been, since I put 'em in a bedroom together when they came to visit. (Whoops! If I was wrong. ) But, is that really a topic for a child's birthday party? And what was I supposed to say? "They're Lutheran, so it's okay as long as they sacrifice goats" (That would probably work, as the woman in question tends to cast a jaundiced eye at non-Presbyterians.)
I was good. I didn't say anything involving the words bitter old clam . I didn't say anything at all. Now I sort of wonder if I should have stood up for my friends. What they do or don't do isn't any of my business and it certainly isn't hers. Was I being a good daughter-in-law, a bad friend, or both? *grinds teeth*
To top it off, I think I'm angry that this woman is alive and well, while my mother (who always loved people first and worked very hard not to judge them) is rotting in the ground. And here I am, hiding at my computer so my son won't see his mother crying on his birthday, and somehow think it's his fault.
[/rant]
Thanks for letting me vent.
Posts: 1664 | Registered: Apr 2004
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Even Paul said celibacy is not for everyone. Criminy sakes. She's upset about two adults possibly engaging in premarital sex, but not about her own capacity for unkind speculation and commentary. And assumption.
Oh well...I'm just going to rant with you.
Some things (most things of this nature) are between the individual and God. You have to make your own decisions. If she doesn't like his decisions, she shouldn't select him as her pastor. Of course, since he's not Presbyterian, she probably wouldn't listen to him anyway.
rant rant rant rant rant.
Sorry she spoiled your son's birthday for you.
don't give her that power over you!
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
"Gee, isn't it too bad they don't stone people for that in this country?"
I tend toward the sarcastic. When I can think of a pertinent reply in time, that is. I usually think of it hours later.
Posts: 2034 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
I suppose you can point out to her that while she comes from a tradition, and perhaps a faith, where any sex outside marriage is against the commandments, there are other Christians and other faiths that believe that is acceptable. She may not be aware of that. She also may not like it. But that is their belief.
I am of the belief that in general someone who is a spiritual leader should hold themselves to higher standards than the norm so as to be an example. There are several verses in the New Testament that discuss the high standards that bishops of that time should hold themselves to. One of them was only having one wife (since at that time it was somewhat acceptable to have more than one.)
I guess while I can understand her disapproval of the situation, she could have handled it better. Sometimes people speak without thinking.
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
It's really not any of her business what they do... Not at all. I hate that sort of judgementalness. After all, it's one thing to have a certain "moral" view, but sometimes that just shatters a bit when it comes to real people and how complicated they are.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
funny. your mother in law seemed polite and kind enough on saturday...
and technically the Lutheran Church DOES frown upon premarital sex, but isn't that something between me and my church/God, not for somebody else outside of my realm of thinking to dictate as wrong? (and for the record of anybody reading this before they ask, i dont have "casual sex")
Ron's mom (based on what you said here) is a jackass...
boy, if this isn't an incriminating post, i don't know what is.
and happy b'day to that mofo Liam.
[ September 28, 2004, 11:26 PM: Message edited by: Ben ]
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quote: but isn't that something between me and my church/God, not for somebody else outside of my realm of thinking to dictate as wrong?
Normally yes, but (IMO) when you put yourself in a position to be an example to others, there is an added responsibility there. If the example is that of a Christian leader, then a close following of the commandments is pretty important. If your faith believes pre-marital sex is OK, then there is no conflict. Is it "do what I say not what I do"?
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posted
Now, I wasn't there, but from what I can tell, people are being as judgmental toward the MIL in this thread as she was being toward others.
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How's the phrase go? Let he who is without sin...
Yeah, I'm pretty sure that's it.
I'm going out on a limb and say most people who join their faith's calling probably weren't saints or their religious equivelant.
I'm sorry Olive, you handled it much better than I would have - because the high note of my tirade would have been "you miserable bat" and ended with "get the hell out." Of course, she's not my mother-in-law, so I can rant a little more freely.
quote: There is no commandment barring pre-marital sex.
There is in my faith.
I am often surprised how quick people are to judge people as judging others. Her question was valid. She could not wrap her brain around someone wanting to be a church leader when they are not following something she feels is a basic and important commandment. The fact that many do not see it as such is besides the point. She believes it is a commandment. Her view appears close-minded to the more "enlightened".
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
As I said, she could have handled it better.
Maybe in her mind her indirectness was her way of being tactful. (One person's tact is another person's rudeness.) I wasn't there. If I had a question about it, I would have been direct about what my question was, tried to phrase it politely, and perhaps waited for a better time than a boy's birthday celebration.
posted
Ben, she IS nice, mostly. And I'm sure she'd never scold anybody outside her family about such things to their face. I think it may have been thoughtless, or just aimed at pissing ME off.
Actually, I shouldn't have posted this here. I'm an idiot. If your feelings are hurt by this, it's MY fault, not hers. I'm sorry.
I think it may be simply because you're MY friends. I mean, she let her middle son's girlfriend stay with him in the basement of their house when she was visiting, because she was 'sure they wouldn't do anything.' Her middle son never gets spoken ill of, while the other two are constantly assumed to be up to no good. Thier friends and significant others are automatically called into question...
I really wanted to get along with her. I've really tried. Now I know I'll never be good enough. My friends, my parenting, my freakin' steak knives will never pass muster with her. *sigh*
I didn't mean to condemn her, I just needed to get my frustration off my chest.
I'll delete the thread in the morning. Good freakin' night.
Posts: 1664 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
I am sorry, Olivetta, and I hope you are wrong about her. If she can't see what a nice person you are IRL, when we can rell from miles away on the internet....
Well, there may be no hope for her...but it isn't your fault.
posted
Kwea, I would have been curious, maybe a bit confused. It has to do with the background I come from. It was only here on Hatrack that I heard for the first time the reasoning that pre-marital sex is not necessarily "wrong" according to the Bible. I had honestly never heard someone say that before. I defend Olivia's MIL because I could see myself wanting to ask a similar question. Not because I was judging someone, but because I didn't understand that there was a different POV than I had previously considered.
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posted
There's a time and a place for interfering in other people's sex lives, and it's at the bottom of the sea, right now. Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
Come on. This isn't about doctrine. It's about respecting other people and not being a shit. This woman wasn't just being curious. She was intentionally belittling friends of Olivia's at a bad time and place. Who gives a rat's ass what the Bible 'really' says in this context? Any adult should understand that there are people who believe differently than what they do. No one would want someone telling them they weren't a good person/Christian. It's nonproductive and stupid and juvenile. This woman's behavior was impolite and rude, no matter whether the bible backs her up or not. Jebus.
Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
Mother-in-laws can press your buttons like no one else. My MIL once made a comment about the way I arranged the furniture in our apartment and it still ticks me off.
Hang in there, Olivia.
Posts: 3037 | Registered: Jan 2002
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posted
Ummm... correct me if I'm wrong but, weren't concubines considered outside marriage? And didn't Solomon, David and a slew of others have concubines? Would that not be considered 'premarital' since I believe some were married later.
Posts: 986 | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
You know, if we're not supposed to judge, then maybe we shouldn't be judging the MIL.
It's one thing for Olivia, and anyone else who has to deal with this person, to come here and tell he firends that she's upset, and why. That seems appropriate.
It's another to dog-pile someone we don't know, using a doctrine that itself contradicts the righteousness of the dog-piling.
So I'll echo Sara's sentiment: I'm sorry you had to deal with that, especially on your son's birthday.
posted
I agree that the M-i-L chose the wrong place and time to speak her concerns, but does that mean she doesn't have a right to voice her concern at all? Condemn her for choosing to voice it at her grandson's birthday party, but don't condemn her for having that opinion.
Lutherans, at least ELCA and Missouri Synod, believe premarital sex is wrong. It might not be Olivia's M-i-L's business, but it is the business of the seminary, his future congregation and others that look up to him as higher standard.
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posted
I cast a quizzical eye on "indirect." "Indirect" usually means indirect in the denotation of verbalized language but quite direct (unmistakable) in both body language and the connotation of the verbalized language. The point gets made quite clearly, but it is so easily denied: "I didn't say that." (Yes, you did.)
I can't think of any truly admirable benefits to saying something "indirect" which cannot be gained by saying it directly, discreetly, calmly, and quietly -- in private, with authenticity.
[ September 29, 2004, 09:00 AM: Message edited by: Sara Sasse ]
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posted
You handled it well, Olivia, and it is a shame she put you through all that! You are a wonderful mother by all accounts and a loving wife and I'm sure even a pretty darn good daughter in law. Don't let her comments get you down.
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posted
That being said, I don't give much of a flying fig about whether Olivia's MIL is a jerk or not. I do, however, care that my friend was upset, and I am so glad to know her as a kind, direct, authentic woman with her mother's presence. Posts: 2919 | Registered: Aug 2004
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posted
Mrs. M, Ron and I once had a huge cook out, with both our families at our old house in TN. It was our first house, and bigger and nicer than the one we're in now, since we were both working then.
Ron bought and cooked steaks and chicken and all sorts of things. It was a feast. Since it was a special occasion, Ron suggested I get out the stainless steel steak knives that my mother had purchased in Germany when I was a child (she'd given them to me when we bought the house). This style of steak knife is sharp at the tip, and not serrated, because in Germany they cut their meat with the tip (poke, poke, poke, not sawwing back and forth). They are very pretty and I was proud of them.
Well, she made a point of asking for a serrated knife, and when I gave her one, she got up and brought more of the cheap knives out so everyone else could use them, because my German knives were impossible to cut steak with and why did they even make them that way.
I didn't stab her. But if I ever do, the knife will be serrated.
Oh, and that was after I met her at the door (It had taken me a bit of time to answer because I was mopping the floor and had to go around the wet part) and she said , "Good Morning! Sorry to wake you." It was 1pm.
Things were better for a while when the babies came, but the bloom is off the rose as far as her grandchildren go, so now I suck again.
I have tried really hard. I've collected state quarters that I knew she needed for her collections, and tried to show an interest in stuff she does. I help out in the kitchen when we visit, and try to be a good hostess when they come here.
My friends' parents always loved me. My other boyfriends' parents liked me too. I'm not accustomed to being disliked, and having the worst be assumed of me. When Ron and I started dating, I was actually way more religious than anybody in his family. I was this scrubbed-clean virgin girl, but even then, she assumed the worst (probably because she knew Ron pretty well ). I have since been thoroughly corrupted, fulfilling her presumptions I suppose.
I've never gotten to the point that I enjoy antagonizing her, though Ron does (and Mark, too, actually). David is the smart one. He does all sorts of things she wouldn't approve of, but moved out of state to keep her nose out of it.
Her negativity is beginning to affect my boys. They don't enjoy going to visit her. I don't know what to do. I'm beginning to wonder if I should let them NOT go see her if they don't want to. Nothing any of us do is ever good enough. I don't want my boys damaged by her low opinion of them.
And, yeah, I guess I'm not deleting it, since Ben doesn't seem to mind it.
Posts: 1664 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
Olivia, as someone who has a er, difficult, grandmother (I need to get the latest epistle to Tom, in which she tells me she was crying over my sinning ways while listening to a Dobson program on the Strong Willed Child and how much I'm hurting her and my mother because I'm living in sin with Steve) I would say if the kids don't want to see her, don't force them!
There will be enough obligatory family get togethers where she will see them anyway. And, sigh, if you can't do anything right anyway, why not at least buffer your kids from the worst of it, sounds like you are going to get yelled at either way, unfortunately. And you really don't want to have a grandmother become an object lesson for "this is how we get along with difficult people" until they get older.
posted
The whole Mother-in-Law phenomenon is interesting. I have a wonderful MiL. Truly. She is very sweet to me and to all my family. I love having her visit my home, and I love going to visit her. A couple of her other children get on my nerves sometimes, but in roughly the same way that my own siblings do.
But I have been very surprised at the difficulties I sometimes see in the relationship between my own mother and my wife. They love each other, they really do. But they have never been 100% comfortable in each other's presence. Since the beginning, they have both worried a lot about what the other thinks (i.e. my wife worries about what my Mom thinks about her, and vice versa).
Growing up, I never saw my Mom participating in the kinds of female political games that are purported to be so common between women. To me, she seemed just as straightforward and up-front as any man I knew. It would never have occurred to me to look for hidden messages in her body language, actions or between the lines in her words.
So it came as a big shock to hear my wife talking about the various ways in which my Mom had slighted her, or put her down, or left her out, or whatever. Most of the time, I was right there in the room with them, I and never saw what she was talking about. However, since she is the one I have chosen to spend my life with, I have stayed "on her side" in any conflicts or perceived conflicts with my Mom. And, by listening to her (my wife), I have come to learn how to recognize some of the things my Mom does and/or says that bother her, and have started trying to react to those things when I see them come up again, by gently but firmly letting my Mom know when I feel something she has done isn't quite right.
I don't want to make it sound like there is a war going on, because there isn't. They get along really well 95% of the time. I just want to help make the remaining 5% better.
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) But, is that really a topic for a child's birthday party? And what was I supposed to say? "They're Lutheran, so it's okay as long as they sacrifice goats" (That would probably work, as the woman in question tends to cast a jaundiced eye at non-Presbyterians.)
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I'm an idiot. If your feelings are hurt by this, it's MY fault, not hers. I'm sorry. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
