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Ron knows that his mother is usually passive-aggressive, and his grandmother on his mother's side is, too. He hates it, but has had the capacity to ignore her completely since sixth grade. She clips things out of the paper about how parents aren't controlling their kids anymore, leading to kids being monsters that disobey and never listen, etc. We know this is commentary on our parenting. It doesn't seem to matter that she's the only one who thinks our kids are terrors.
I dunno. I may just have to be done with her.
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I would have an up front conversation with her about it, with Ron in the room with you. Show a few examples of how you have felt belittled. Ask Ron to stop exchanging tit for tat, but to come right out and tell her that something was a mean thing to say/do at the moment she does it. Bring up how the boys have been feeling uncomfortable. I would tell her that if this kind of behavior continues, they will not be visiting her.
Things like the steak knives are thoughtless, but I suspect not meant to offend. But little jabs like "good morning" at 1 PM is meant to be mean. (edit: and clipping out articles about poor parenting. Wow.) And if your boys are picking up on the snideness, that is even worse.
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If it is getting to this point, I would concur with Amka. You need to have at least Ron also with you, if not Mark as well. It sounds like she is likely to pretend ignorance of what you state is the problematic behavior.
This is the problem with indirectness: disingenuity. If someone will deny the covert action when called on it (politely, gently, but firmly), then you know the point of the indirectness isn't "to spare your feelings" or "to be polite," but to hurt without paying the price.
If you love someone, and you feel you must correct them for reasons of their own health, then the adult way to do it is directly, taking the responsibility for doing so on your own shoulders. Bearing the responsibility for correcting someone else is a Big Thing, partly because it comes with the responsibility for bearing the fallout. Otherwise, it's just getting your jujubes without shelling out the quarters.
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*sigh* I agree with your post above Sara. But, this topic always gets me thinking about my own situation and how I could handle it differently and wish there was something I could do to deal with the situation directly that wouldn't blow up in my face.
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I'd probably be more worried about "correcting" if I had children. My parents method of correcting, now that I think about it, was avoidance. Move to the other side of the continent so you don't have to deal with it more than once or twice a year.
The problem is, with a familial pattern of avoidance, if I did attempt to "correct" it would blow up on the people I love the most other than Steve, my immediate family. And I know, that from a religious standpoint they do agree with Grandma, and believe that I have a problem that needs correcting.
I inadvertantly said something to my Great Aunt, about my Grandma in my teens, that resulted in a huge fight. It was the time my grandmother called me a slut because I had to practice the piano with a male vocalist as a class assignment, and OMG I was alone in the house with him for five minutes. I was hurt and trying to understand why it happenened from a generational perspective so I talked to Aunt Ruth and unbeknownst to me she yelled at my grandmother about it and there was this giant fight. I was totally unaware of it, until it got back to my mother cause everyone including my grandma was calling her wanting to take sides. Mom told my father, who finally said something to me like "You did it this time, AJ." And I had no clue the fight was happening about something I'd said to begin with.
So given the behavioral patterns of my family, as much as I would like confrontation and saying this can't go on, and even as much as I have buffered myself from the effects of this nonsense. I don't know that I could actually deal with the fallout.
My batty grandmother's health is bad enough, even if she didn't go to Heaven before her knee surgery, that it is possible a confrontation of the magnitude it would have to be could take a toll. People don't cross her. On the other hand it could keep her dander up and give her a reason to keep living as well, though sending me letters appears to be one of the reasons she gets up in the morrning now.
I admit I'm being somewhat passive aggressive in dealing with the situation, but I don't know what else to do.
Thanks to hatrack I do at least have more emotional detachment than I did.
quote: does that mean she doesn't have a right to voice her concern at all?
If she is concerned she should talk to the people about it and not you. I feel I can say without judging her personally that to talk to you about it is merely gossip. (edit: Applies to AJ's grandmother as well)
While I do think premarital sex is wrong, the people might just be room mates.
And of course it was a lapse of control on her part to bring it up at the child's party.
And just don't feel obligated to ever meet them halfway again. I don't think cutting them off totally is such a good thing. As far as the boys go, in a couple of years you can start to explain (if heaven forbid this is still going on) that grandma sometimes hurts your feelings. They get the vibes, even if they don't see you crying. I don't know how mature a 5 year old he is, but you may want to explain that now.
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My mother-in-law called a little while ago and go the coldest shoulder i could possibly give her.
For 12 years I've put up with passive-aggressive attacks from that woman, and had to deal with the fact that my husband didn't believe me, support me, or back me up.
Well, recently, the woman has done some things that have opened my hubby's eyes, and he finally sees the crap I've been putting up with.
She no longer deserves my courtesy, and she won't get it. I fought like hell to have a good relationship with her for my husband's sake, but now that she has determined that none of us are what she wants anymore (she'd rather hang out with her live-in boyfriend and can't be bothered with things like grandchildren's birthdays, or her kids wanting to come visit her and see her anymore) then to hell with her.
Okay, can anyone tell I'm a bit bitter and angry?
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posted
If she has been like this for years and years, I don't think having a talk with her is going to make her change at all. I'd suspect it'd just make the both of them mad.
I would say the thing to do is accept her for what she is, and adjust accordingly.
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For a happy note. Steve's mother is WONDERFUL. I've never felt so much unconditional acceptance as when I'm with his family, either with his mother or his father (they are divorced)
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And there are times when you cut them off. There are times when you ask yourselves "is the type of person I want to have an influence on my children?" If someone has shown such severe lack of judgment, are you going to trust your kids around them?
You don't do it out of anger, or pettiness, but you do it after you've carefully and prayerfully (if you're a believer) considered everything and determined this person does not need to be part of your life.
It's not easy, it sucks, to tell you the truth. I had to do it with my stepfather. Now, it looks like my kids will have to endure losing another grandparent. it's not fair to them, and it really makes me angry when people are so selfish they no longer care about the people they are supposed to love and that still love them.
Sorry...I'm rambling and this is not directly related to your thread, Olivia. It's my ranting due to frustration and having to endure many, many last straws.
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quote: If she has been like this for years and years, I don't think having a talk with her is going to make her change at all. I'd suspect it'd just make the both of them mad.
I would say the thing to do is accept her for what she is, and adjust accordingly.
a) Which specific situation were you talking about or were talking about all of them in general?
b) How do you adjust to having hurtful things said about you constantly? Belief in the supernatural only gets you so far.
c) Why should one have to *adjust* to having deliberately hurtful things said about you in the first place?
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That is avoidance, tres. It also does not give the woman a chance to correct her errors because no one bothers to point them out to her. Sadly, Olivia's MIL has been raised that way and continues to behave in such a manner because no one wants to ruffle feathers.
What happened to AJ's family and her ongoing ordeal with her grandmother is the outcome.
Before talking to your mother in law, Olivia, I might learn more about passive/aggressive behavior other than rhetoric, in hope that the conversation will be useful (no matter how she reacts to it) rather than frustrating.
I mean, I don't think it would be just you, Olivia, that would be happier if she stopped the P/A behavior, but also your MIL in the long run.
edit: Of course, I hope you know this is all us just blowing off our opinions and "this is what you should do"s. You are in the situation, and you are the one in pain. Good luck, and I hope you find something useful here.
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Some things have to be accepted. Some things don't. No one is required to put up with belittling comments. If a person doesn't have the courtesy and respect to adjust thier behavior on request, knowing the behavior is hurtful, then that's the type of person I'd probably want to avoid, anyway.
Most people I know who like to make comments like this are also champions at getting very hurt when challenged, either because they're "just tellin' it like it is" or because they're "just worried about you." Then they like to add, "I guess I won't say anything at all, then. What do I know, I'm just you're [grandmother, grandfather, mother, father, etc.].
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Exactly, Dag. Most people who do that are NOT acting in ignorance - they do it because it's useful to them and they figure they get more out of doing it than they would if they stopped.
Also, if someone clearly doesn't respect you (as evidenced by the belittling comments), why would they listen to a scolding from someone they don't respect?
*grin* My brothers used to tickle me a lot when I was a kid. It got old to me very quickly, but was still rewarding to them, so despite knowing that I didn't like it, they did it anyway. They quit when I started yelling at the top of my lungs as soon as they started. They quit remarkably quickly. It was no longer rewarding.
Depending on how you are with confrontations, "We can't be around you unless you are polite to me." could be very effective.
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a) I was referring to the original situation, but I guess it goes for them all just as well
b) Among the possible adjustments are avoiding doing whatever might set them off (even if that means avoiding conversation in general), staying out of certain situations, attempting to make peace, and not worrying about what her opinion is. The most important adjustment would be to like her in spite of her faults - because once that happens it's much easier to ignore her negativity and she's much less likely to want to be aggresive around you.
c) It's not fair, but it may be best for your sake and everyone's. Life is a one player game, and you have to deal with whatever parameters it throws at you. Crying foul might be fair, but it doesn't solve things.
quote: b) Among the possible adjustments are avoiding doing whatever might set them off (even if that means avoiding conversation in general), staying out of certain situations, attempting to make peace, and not worrying about what her opinion is. The most important adjustment would be to like her in spite of her faults - because once that happens it's much easier to ignore her negativity and she's much less likely to want to be aggresive around you.
Tres, I like you. I wish I could be so sweetly naieve. I was once.
You don't understand. Everything and Anything can set these sorts of people off. It isn't logical or rational. In my case specifically I have been ignoring the negativity (to begin with at the instructions of my parents) and she's gotten progressively worse. It escalates over time, unfortunately rather than diminishes.
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That's always the excuse of people who want to justify being aggressive back - that not fighting back would be naive.
But the truth is, I've seen people like that time and time again, too many to count. They take a confrontation as you being passive-agressive to them, thus justifying their own aggression. It makes them more aggressive - because the thing passive aggressive people care about is that they are justified in what they do. That's why they pretend like they aren't really being aggressive - they want to believe they are being good.
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Tres, I have never written a single letter back to my grandmother. I have reams upon reams of letters she's written to me. Well, Tom D has most of them now.
I sent her two postcards from college. I also sent her a Christmas card last year with a $30 gift certificate for Olive Garden because to send one to my Great-Aunt, and my parents and leaving her out, would have been passive agressive.
I believe the last time I actually spoke to her was on Christmas too.
quote: They take a confrontation as you being passive-agressive to them
Huh?
Confrontation is not passive aggression. If we were really talking about passive aggression here, it would not be transparent. Passive agression is when frustration in one area is transmuted into dysfunction in another area.
P.S. Basically, she is rude. But it's hard to tell someone they are rude without being... well, rude.
It's possible that the steak knives thing was not intentionally rude. They were something special to Olivia, and her husband suggested it, but it came back to her and not him. The "did I wake you" was rude. This thing about the commandments was rude.
P.P.S. My grandma had this ongoing issue about my race. If she had lived long enough, I don't think I would have let my children ever hang out with her alone. But I pretty much survived it. I don't know if raising children is about insulating them from any crazy relatives. It would make as much sense to never let them see PG movies. Cutting kids off from crazy relatives entails that you yourself are not at all crazy.
AJ, no offense, but your grandma has issues. I can't believe your parents would blame you for her craziness.
My parents have just gone through a stressful divorce...after 30 years of marriage. Dad left Mom for a much younger woman. Dad can't understand why people have not taken his side and Mom has been left paranoid at the world and at almost everyone around her as a result. Thus they make life miserable for my brother and I and most of our family and family friends.
*sigh*
It's gotten better though... I'm sure in 5 years or so we'll be back to "normal".
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I don't think any of us holds illusions that the person we are dealing with will actually change in their heart of hearts. The question for Olivia though is if the objectionable person can at least attempt to curb their behavior around their children.
Or, even if they will always pulling their nosy passive aggressive bs, they aren't doing it directly to you at least as often.
quote:That's always the excuse of people who want to justify being aggressive back - that not fighting back would be naive.
Note that there is a difference between "being aggressive back" and "saying it directly, discreetly, calmly, and quietly -- in private, with authenticity."
Setting boundaries can be a good lesson to learn. It shouldn't be done as punishment or an attack, though, but saying it has to be for those motives is rather overstating the matter, to say the least.
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I talked to Ron about it. He knows what she does, and all that. He wanted me to know that he's on my side, but he did helpfully remind me of a few things.
It's not helpful to be bringing up everything awful she ever did that hurt my feelings. It started when we were still just dating and I came to visit, and has continued with highs and lows since then. But dredging up the things she insinuated about me when we started dating won't help matters. They still hurt. Yes, it still hurts that she assumed I was a slut because I had a lot of guy friends (she saw me getting into a car with 3 or 4 guy friends--we were going to the movies, and only one guy had a car on campus. It was dutch and all that, but she smirked to Ron, "Hey, isn't that your girlfriend getting into a car full of boys?") I was never anything remotely resembling what she wants to believe I was. But it still doesn't help to bring it up now.
And, it's not just me. Ron reminded me that his mother is a very critical person. She does itto everybody, except maybe her best friend. That's who she is. She's not my mother. She's more reliable in some ways than anybody in my family ever was. She tries to think around corners and help people she cares about prepare for things they may not anticipate. She told David and his wife that they should cut down the dead tree in their yard before Hurricane Charley came through. She'd call and remind them, and ask if they'd done it yet. She was certain it would fall on their house. They didn't get rid of it and it DID fall on their house. I'm sure it was as annoying as hell, but her heart was in the right place. My point is, it's not me, it's everybody. I'm actually looking better since she found out her second son's wife is kind of a Democrat. I refuse to talk politics, so she assumes I'm a reasonable Republican. There's no need to tell her I support Gay Marriage, etc. It would serve no purpose other than annoying the heck out of her and making my husband's life more difficult.
My poor father-in-law, though I THINK he mostly agrees with her world-view, has always been really nice to me. Possibly by way of compensation, possibly because he likes me. Though I think they both agree that my kids are the spawn of Satan. Anyway, IF something else happens, I think I will take Amka's advice. It was good advice. I do think that maybe I've let my memories of past insults (I agree that the knife thing was probably not intentional, though the 'Sorry to wake you" couldn't have been anything other than intended to imply that Ron and I were complete Sybarites... as if that would be bad ) color the situation at hand. She's not a bad woman. I didn't mean to villify her. I just needed to vent, and I'm sorry I dragged you all into it with me.
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If any frustrated wives here would like a good laugh at my expense, I recently had a dinner with my mother where she tried to figure out how the emnity had grown between her and Monica.
She said (I am not making this up):
quote:I think it started when you guys got married. I mean, before that, you were all about the family, but once you married her, you started spending all your time on her.
I actually had to excuse myself so I could go in the men's room and have a long, bitter laugh. In short, ladies, I can empathize with many of your sentiments.
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quote: She'd call and remind them, and ask if they'd done it yet. She was certain it would fall on their house. They didn't get rid of it and it DID fall on their house.
I'm sorry, I had to laugh out loud at that. Though if it were me I'd be mad a her .
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Some parents (particularly mothers) just don't know how to let go of their children when they grow up. My mother has made the comment before that none of us kids married the sort of person she would have picked out for us. She feels like our spouses "changed" us. Well, duh, marriage is a compromise. Of course you are both going to change to become somewhat like the other. It is part of the whole "becoming one flesh" bit. Sometimes I think if she could have had us kids marry each other, she would have.
Jim, that comment from your mother is priceless. And scary.
Olivia, I believe you that your MiL has a passive-aggressive streak. I hate dealing with passive-aggressive behavior. Since I dislike it from others, I try really hard to avoid acting that way myself. I agree with Sara that being direct (and yet still kind) is the best way to go.
Does it seem to anyone else that women of previous generations were more likely to be terribly passive-aggressive than the women of this generation? I ask because it is my theory that in a time when women were not considered equal to men, I think a lot of women resorted to that behavior as an acceptable way of dealing with things they didn't like. I am hoping that as our society is more and more accepting of women speaking their minds, less women will feel the need to adopt that sort of coping behavior.
Incidentally, I still can't "stand up" to my mother's passive-aggressiveness. (She isn't that bad, though--thank goodness.) She is so sensitive to any perceived criticism--I feel like I have to be really careful what I say.
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I think you're right about the passive-agressive thing. That was one thing my mother didn't ever do (that I saw-- there are stories of things she did before I was there. Like dad would eat sardines and crackers in bed, and she hated having the crumbs all over. So one day she made the bed with a very neat layer of crackers between the sheets on his side, and then went over it with a rolling pin. Dad never ate cracker in bed again, and the whole family laughed about it for years, even dad.) But I don't know if that qualifies as 'passive'. Mom was not passive. Mom was an Alpha Female, and fairly direct.
I don't understand some of it, really. She didn't want to come to a cook out we had just before I left to go to TN. She said she didn't feel well. Ron said he thought she just didn't want to come see him. The next thing he knew, his father was on the phone saying, "Your mother is crying."
She came to the cook-out in her red-eyed martyr costume, and I was stuck in the middle. It was horrible.
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quote: Bev, I know that tradition says it is wrong....but where in the Commandments does it prohibit it?
I don't care about the Bible, really...you can find justification for almost anything in there if you dig through the old testament..
But which commandment prohibits it?
It isn't adultry...that is cheating on a spouse.
No spouse, no adultery.
To answer it, I think generally the word "fornication" is interpreted to mean pre-marital sex. (This from the NT and OT.) I realize that it is contended to mean something far more specific--like referring to sex rites of other religions.
If you are wanting to restrict the conversation to the Bible, I may not be able to make a good, "water-tight" case. (One that rules out the "sex rite" theory). But as an LDS, I have other books of scripture than the Bible. For example: if the Koran specifically said "Do not have sex with someone you are not married to" wouldn't it make sense for a Muslim to believe premarital sex was wrong? (I don't know what the Koran says, this is just a hypothetical.)
Rest assured, it is quite clear in the faith I come from that sex with someone you are not married to is a no-no. It is found in our canonized scripture and in the recent words of our prophets. It is not my business what another denomination believes. I reserve the right to be surprised, though, the first time I learned of it.
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I think most Christian denominations agree, but ascribing it to the Ten Commandments is fallacious. I think that may be what we were getting at.
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quote: I think you're right about the passive-agressive thing. That was one thing my mother didn't ever do (that I saw-- there are stories of things she did before I was there. Like dad would eat sardines and crackers in bed, and she hated having the crumbs all over. So one day she made the bed with a very neat layer of crackers between the sheets on his side, and then went over it with a rolling pin. Dad never ate cracker in bed again, and the whole family laughed about it for years, even dad.) But I don't know if that qualifies as 'passive'. Mom was not passive. Mom was an Alpha Female, and fairly direct.
Oooo! I like your mom. She sounds like Porter's mom.
There is a story that on their first morning as a married couple, Porter's mom woke up early and cooked pancakes for her new hubby. This was a kind gesture from her--she is *not* subserviant! Porter's dad woke up, sat down to the pancakes and asked, "Where are the eggs?"
This did not go over well.
You see, all growing up, Porter's dad *never* had pancakes without eggs. He just assumed that everyone did things that way. Pancakes without eggs?! Inconceivable!
Well, to this day, when Porter's mom makes pancakes, his dad makes the eggs!
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quote: I think most Christian denominations agree, but ascribing it to the Ten Commandments is fallacious. I think that may be what we were getting at.
Good point. Commandment #7 *does* use the word adultery, not fornication. I think a lot of people don't stop to think that through. If I had been you, I don't think I could have helped but point that out.
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I got married a year ago with a VERY short courtship. My mother felt betrayed that she didn't play a larger role in my decision and that I didn't have a wedding--and she wasn't there at the courthouse when I got married. I am supposed to have a wedding (maybe by my 2nd anniversary) but we've been too poor and busy so far. She and I had basically been best friends, so she took my getting married like that as a double betrayal--handling it VERY badly. I do regret that she wasn't there, but there's nothing I can do about it now. Since then, she gives a lot of unwanted advice and commentary on how we live our lives. Putting my husband down for not getting a "real" job (he's freelance and now a student) and throwing previous hopeful things I've said in my face when they don't work out. (Things regarding our spiritual and financial lives.)
Dagonee explained it just right above. When confronted, she protests that the things she's saying are TRUE. And when pressed not to say them anyway, she gets defensive with lines like "well, what do I know..." etc. I can't seem to get across to her that she's being disrespectful and butting in where she shouldn't.
My husband hates the way she acts and what she says, and it's starting to affect his liking of her. He actually really does like her when she's acting civily. So, we don't visit very often--which she is very upset about. Instead of deciding to be more civil, she refuses to admit there's anything wrong with her behavior and says that she is the wounded one and where's HER respect? I don't understand it, because we DO respect her. But respect doesn't mean we have to let her say whatever she wants--or be around her.
She reminded me last night that she still hasn't "bounced back" from my getting married. She says it has been harder on her than her divorce, which was very hard on her. I asked her what I was supposed to say to that, and she said nothing, it's just how she feels.
The big problem is, I MISS my mom. She raised me and my two brothers alone and we were a very close-knit family. I believe a lot of what she says, taking the blame for betraying her and causing her so much pain. I wouldn't give up my husband, but I feel like I totally messed up and NOTHING I do can make it better. Nothing. But as long as she continues like this, my husband is very reluctant to visit her (2 hours away), so either I go alone or I don't go at all. She could have fixed it all with a simple apology to him and he would have put it all behind him. HE offered her an apology, too, (although honestly, he deserved one much more.) He still hasn't gotten one--except for a "I'm sorry I hurt your feelings." My brother and his family live near her too, and I miss them as well.
So, it's nice to know I'm not the only one in this sort of situation. I don't want to cut my mother off, that would cause me a LOT of pain AND her, but it's not right for me not to take a stand with my husband. I know without a doubt that if his family said ANYTHING about me like what my mom says about him that he would have nothing to do with whoever it was anymore. (I think he'd give them one chance to apologize.) His words.
So, I can relate...
Edit: What Beverly's mom said about her spouses changing her... my mom has said that as well. She doesn't know me anymore, she says. Very hurtful to me.
posted
Man. If my daughters want to elope, more power to 'em. I don't want to plan their weddings! I have no such fantasies.
quote: So, we don't visit very often--which she is very upset about. Instead of deciding to be more civil, she refuses to admit there's anything wrong with her behavior and says that she is the wounded one and where's HER respect? I don't understand it, because we DO respect her. But respect doesn't mean we have to let her say whatever she wants--or be around her.
Well, if she wants you to visit more, I guess she better think about changing her behavior, eh?
quote: but I feel like I totally messed up and NOTHING I do can make it better. Nothing.
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She would probably say she forgave me, but she CAN'T forget. She probably still cries every night--she tells me that every once in a while. Sometimes, things are great between us and I think, Yay! things are getting better, they've been better for a month or so now--perhaps it's a good time to plan a trip up there... THEN, she gets in one of her moods and it all starts up again. My husband is getting SO tired of it. I get so frustrated because every time I get CLOSE to getting a trip up there, she starts again. And I DO tell her that we're planning to come up soon, but that doesn't stop her from doing it again. And she gets soooo hurt and bothered when we see his family.
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quote: What Beverly's mom said about her spouses changing her... my mom has said that as well. She doesn't know me anymore, she says. Very hurtful to me.
We had a fascinating discussion about this with some friends of ours just awhile back. They told a story of a man who's wife died and he remarried. After marrying, his teenage daughter complained that he wasn't the same man anymore. He didn't like to do the same things as he used to. She blamed the new wife.
Well, the father sat the daughter down and said, "Why do you think I used to do all those things before? That was who I was when I was with your mother. This is who I am with my new wife. You change to meet your spouse halfway. It's called being a good marriage partner."
We all nodded our heads wisely at that. Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote: She would probably say she forgave me, but she CAN'T forget. She probably still cries every night--she tells me that every once in a while.
IMO, when you forgive someone, you let go of the hurt. It's not like you are physically sawing her arm off. If this is just about her not getting to be a part of your wedding celebrations, that shouldn't still be hurting her now--not if she has forgiven you.
On the other hand, she may believe that you made an unwise decision and that you have much pain and anguish ahead of you because of it. That is a valid way for her to feel. But you didn't inflict that on her. If she feels that way, it is out of her love for you. She should not be acting like this is something you did to her.
It reminds me of when I was in a bad relationship (not that I am saying yours is bad, it has more to do with the POV of my friends/family) and my friends acted like my being in it was something I had inflicted on them and they had to distance themselves from me. I could never understand that. And it didn't help me at all, BTW.
What did help me was when my family finally let go and stopped trying to tell me what to do or change me. Once I didn't have to fight against them, I was more able to think about whether it was really what I wanted. If they hadn't "let go", I am pretty sure I would have married the guy.
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posted
Well, he's not our denomination (SDA) and that bothered her. She has made insinuations that he's not good enough for me. I HATE that. He's wonderful for me. That is such a horrible thing to say, I think.
I think missing out on the marrying part bothers her the most... and that he didn't ask my mom for my hand.
It was a stupid, short "ceremony" with the judge. We were in jeans. Ick. We were both stressed--and we both considered ourselves married BEFORE the stupid state ceremony. We were already committed. We made it "official" for the sake of others.. (we were living together). My mother told me that I couldn't have a real wedding later if I eloped, but I did it anyway... (this is a VAST simplication of events). One of the reasons was my husband felt it would make her accept him and I as a couple. Perhaps wasn't the best way to handle things, but it's done already and I've apologized up and down about it. She has changed her mind and is going to help me with a wedding, but my husband and I have to pay for most of it. That's okay with me. It's not like she's made of money. I'm just glad she's going to be involved--if it ever happens.
I don't wanna hijack the thread... I was just struck at how much what others were saying was familiar to what I hear from my own mom.
posted
beverly, I'd say that passive-aggressiveness can sometimes be the only power someone in a position of little relative power can exert. I'd agree with you totally on the women of a certain generation, but IIRC, this is also something written of in the journals of slaves and a not-uncommon technique of children in closed environments (girls in junior high?). Even more underscores your point.
OTOH, being the one who is so sensitive and so easily wounded that others must tiptoe around you is a very powerful position to be in.
[ September 29, 2004, 04:10 PM: Message edited by: Sara Sasse ]
Posts: 2919 | Registered: Aug 2004
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posted
All this talking of cutting people off because they are rude just astounds me. If someone is a criminal still evading the law or an addict who won't get help, then you cut them off. If they are sexually abusing your kids, you cut them off. But if their relationship skills are bad or their notions antiquated, I don't think many of us will be knowing our own grandchildren.
Katarain, he didn't get an apology except for "I'm sorry I hurt your feelings"? That sounds like an apology to me. I'm not saying your mother isn't a narcissistic twit, but your husband isn't being much better.
I know Dr. Laura is all big on not being nice to people just because they are related, but she only knows what she knows and she does not know how it is to have the child get married and have kids of their own. P.S. neither am I... I'm just saying how would you feel if your spouse forbade you from seeing your parents with your children.
P.P.S.
quote: my husband felt it would make her accept him and I as a couple.
Umm, your husband is probably just young and a bit immature in thinking that. Sorry it's being hard for you. Though you did have a wedding, if you are now married.
posted
pooka, it wasn't really the wording of the apology... it was when they finally talked about it on the phone, he got that apology and then a very long drawn-out explanation of why she was right and all the things that bother her about him. Basically, she re-did exactly the things that she was apologizing for in the same breath.
I probably agree with you a little more on just putting up with people's rude behavior--I'd rather just ignore it. But for the sake of my husband, WHY should he be continually belittled and/or prodded? It's not about cutting people off, it's about choosing not to put yourself in that sort of situation. They are perfectly FREE to do whatever they want, and we are perfectly FREE not to subject ourselves to it.
Edit to respond to an edit: My husband is 29. Not immature. I did say that perhaps it wasn't the best way to deal with the problem, but there's nothing we can do about it now. And besides, that wasn't the ONLY reason that we did it.
And we did NOT have a wedding. We're married, though. A wedding, to me, is a real ceremony. It's MY wedding, MY marriage, and if I say we didn't have a wedding, we didn't.
posted
I am LDS, and for an LDS to marry a non-LDS is often disappointing to the family. Most LDS parents hope for their children to marry another faithful LDS in the temple (a marriage for eternity, beyond death.) The temple ceremony is so simple, and often only a small number actually attend. No wedding dress or tux required. In fact, quite often the couple will rent/purchase those things, but not actually wear them during the ceremony! (All that is required for the ceremony is simple, extremely modest, all-white clothing for both.) They only wear the other for photographs and the other celebrations--"for show".
Many LDS feel the need to have a big reception and all--perhaps to make up for the relative simplicity of the actual temple ceremony. I did't really feel much need for that myself, but I think my mother (and many other members of my family) would have been very upset if I didn't have a reception and whatnot. So I tried to do something fairly bare-bones. I did insist on having Porter wear a tux in the pictures and to the reception. Any excuse to get him into a tux is well worth it! Mmmm, mmmm! We didn't bother with bridesmaides and groomsmen and whatnot.
Anyway, my point is I have a non-traditional view of the traditional marriage celebrations, thinking them terribly unnecessary myself. I find "big weddings" to be distasteful and a waste. Why not put that money towards your new life together? After all, the marriage is more imporant than the wedding.
But I also understand this would mean so much to your mom. Much of what I did was to appease my mother's desires. If you go through with it, I hope she appreciates it.
In case anyone hasn't noticed, I have no qualms about hijacking threads or continuing on tangents. I figure people can always post on the original subject if they want to! Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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