posted
has anyone here noticed the irony of teachers teaching democracy in a dictatorial classroom? well, this is some peoples solution, very very intersting: democratic school - A democratic school is a school that centers on democratic principles and participatory democracy with "full and equal" participation from both students and staff. These learning environments position youth voice as the central actor in the educative process by engaging students in every facet of school operations, including learning, teaching, and leadership. Adult staff support students by offering passive and active facilitation according to students' interest.
The second tenet of many democratic schools, which is related to, but does not necessarily proceed from, their democratic nature, is giving students the power to choose what to do with their time. There are no required classes, and sometimes no requirement to take classes at all. Students are free to choose an activity that they desire, or feel the need to do. They are free to continue activities for as long or short a time as they see fit. In this way they learn both self-discipline and self initiation. They also gain the advantage of the increases in both learning speed and learning retention that accompany engagement in an activity that one is passionate about. The students at these schools are responsible for and empowered to direct their own education from a very young age.
History The oldest surviving democratic school, Summerhill School in England, was founded in 1921 by A.S. Neill. Summerhill is a private school that receives no public funds. Sands School, also in England and also a private school, was established in 1987. In the United States, well known successful examples include the Sudbury Valley School, Play Mountain Place, The Circle School, The Highland School and the inner-city Albany Free School in Albany, NY. In Australia, Preshil in Melbourne has been running successfully since the 1930s, and in Sydney Currambena Primary School has been in operation since 1969.
At least 100 schools around the world identify themselves as "democratic schools" today, in countries such as Australia, Brazil, Canada, Denmark, Finland, Israel, Japan, New Zealand, Russia, South Africa, The Netherlands, United Kingdom and United States. Since 1993 there is an International Democratic Education Conference (IDEC), held in a different country each year.
Trends The early 1970s saw the creation of publicly funded, publicly operated democratic schools. The creation of NOVA Project Alternative High School in Seattle in 1973 is the best example. With the growing rigors of modern education reform, the 1990s saw a return to democratic schooling practices and their increased usage in public schools. Today, organizations including The Big Picture Company, the Coalition of Essential Schools, and SoundOut each incorporate the principles of democratic schools into public education reform efforts.
Would you have gone to one if you could?
Posts: 130 | Registered: Jan 2007
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posted
Sounds peachy, but I doubt I would have had the self-discipline in elementary school to volunteer for the classes I attended at my regular school. I would probably also receive a very lopsided education with little maths; maths that I now use. And I am *so* glad that my 6th grade teacher forced me to write heaps of essays.
Self-discipline doesn't come out of thin air either. The vast majority of the time, it's an internalization of group discipline. The Army knows.
Here's a quote by Stanley Kubrick that you might like:
quote:I think the big mistake in schools is trying to teach children anything, and by using fear as the basic motivation. Fear of getting failing grades, fear of not staying with your class, etc. Interest can produce learning on a scale compared to fear as a nuclear explosion to a firecracker.
I totally agree. Is this solution workable? How do the alumni of these democratic schools perform?
And also, if some students are not as curious, should they be allowed to opt out of critical classes which would improve their standard of living in the future? If it was an adult, I would say yes, that is his/her choice. But many adolescents are terrible at rationally weighing the consequences of their choices, let alone children.
And to answer your question, yes, I probably would have attended if I had the chance in high school. I think I would have learned more, personally. Not sure about some of my classmates though.
Posts: 1762 | Registered: Apr 2006
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quote:has anyone here noticed the irony of teachers teaching democracy in a dictatorial classroom
Not since I recognized the difference between governing and teaching.
I love when someone else has already responded to a thread and expressed what I was struggling to find words for. Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
but when you're growiing up you learn how to be, when you get used to sitting and listening and obeying in school, whats to change when after 11 years of that conditioning, is going to help you be independent and innovative
Posts: 130 | Registered: Jan 2007
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posted
also, of the alumini of these schools 80% go on to college and no student has ever not been accepted to their college of choice
Posts: 130 | Registered: Jan 2007
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Learning to be independent and innovative is not incompatible with also learning to obey authority. All are useful and necessary skills in adulthood.
As for the claim regarding their alumni, I'd like to see the source of these stats. Also, what percentage of students graduate (versus dropping out in favor of another school or just not graduating at all)? And what size population over how many years are we talking about?
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posted
Generally speaking, the onus of providing proof is on the one making the claim.
I wonder if these schools tend to graduate students who believe in the use of capital letters and punctuation.
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posted
I agree about the bias associated with the source of data, and acknowledge it. I am currently a straight-A honors student in a public high school. I did not feel it was necessary to use formal writing conventions in a conversational settng such as these forums. I found this idea intriguing and aspired that members of these forums would consider the advantages and demerits of this metod of schooling. For your information, I looked into such alternative types of schooling because of my urge to defenstrate myself while listening to my teacher drone on about subjects I already grasped.
Posts: 130 | Registered: Jan 2007
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posted
The video you linked to is interesting. However, the general theme seems to be best expressed by one student near the end, who claims that being forced to learn something he's not interested in violates his spirit.
Well, I trust that at some point he will find out about the real world. Where I have to be able to balance my checkbook and keep track of finances and stick to a budget, even though I hate all those things passionately. There is a real life skill in learning to tolerate people and situations that you dislike.
Which is not to say that there are no problems with traditional classrooms, and certainly I am not claiming that every teacher is excellent. I do wonder how practical this kind of school is -- the teacher-to-student ratio must be really high! -- on anything but a very limited basis. It is certainly not a magic bullet, which the trailer sure seemed to be trying to imply it is.
As far as formality, formal language is not necessary. However, many of us poor benighted older generation find it difficult to read more than a few sentences without the visual cues provided by capitalization and punctuation. Certainly it cannot have escaped your attention that the vast majority of Hatrack posts contain both?
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
As a recently enlisted member of the Hatrack forums, I admit the type of language used byhe posters did not catch my notice. (I've only posted 16 times). Sorry, I'll try to be slightly more conventional in how I post, but I'm not making any promises, I'm part of the spell check and internet generation, after all.
Posts: 130 | Registered: Jan 2007
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posted
Welcome to Hatrack jlt! Hope you find the place to be to your liking!
quote:Originally posted by jlt: I did not feel it was necessary to use formal writing conventions in a conversational settng such as these forums.
You're right that on many forums formal writing conventions aren't the norm. On Hatrack, though, it's something that is generally valued. Have a look around; you'll see that the vast majority of us try to obey them. Sometimes we screw up, and a few people seem to pride themselves in failing to follow formal writing conventions. Those people tend to be the sand in our collective Vaseline, I'm afraid.
quote: I found this idea intriguing and aspired that members of these forums would consider the advantages and demerits of this metod of schooling.
It's interesting, but I have the same reservations about it that rivka and Dagonee do. Rivka's right, by the way--it's generally a good idea here to prove your own points rather than asking others to do it for you.
quote:For your information, I looked into such alternative types of schooling because of my urge to defenstrate myself while listening to my teacher drone on about subjects I already grasped.
I think that you'll find that feeling/having felt that way is a fairly common experience here at Hatrack.
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
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posted
Well, at the moment I'm very confused about what to do about school. I'm very unhappy, not for a particular reason, just in general. I feel numb in school, day after day and week after week. I just don't want to keep living this way, I ant to really live. The thing is, I also don't want to disadvantage myself by not working doggedly and numbly. There are so many things I want to do with my life, I don't know if my ambition will survive years more until I gradduate and have freedom. These schools seem like they offer freedom and independance. I've been independant my whole life and I feel caged in school. When we debate current events in class for example, I keep up with them and have a lot to say, but the teacher tealls be to stop commenting when she feels that I should. It's stifling. THe teachers tell us about how to be creative, but I m, and their sheer method of teaching it makes me want to not be creative just so I don't have to do things their way. I like to learn, I read avidly, but homework takes up so much of my lifethat I haven't gotten to read a novel in a long time. Even on weekends, even on break, I have homework. I can't do what I'm interested in. I think about the good teachers I've been lucky enough to have in public school, who taught me so much, but the proportion to the bad teachers who made me hate getting up to go to school everyday was, and is very unbalanced. I see both sides of the issue, but I'm so confused about my own views now that the only thing I know to do is to seek wisdom from others, hence, my questions in this forum.
Posts: 130 | Registered: Jan 2007
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quote:These schools seem like they offer freedom and independance.
Freedom and independence are worth less when they are offered or given. They are far, far more valuable when they are earned.Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
Euripides, I only wish it were original to me! It is a fun one though, isn't it?
Jlt, I wouldn't worry too much about typos. It was really more the lack of capital letters and properly punctuated sentences that was grating, and it's clearly not something that you have a problem with now that you're aware that they're preferred. And, you know, we all make typos and slip up grammatically now and then (especially when complaining about other people's grammar and spelling. This is Davidson's Law).
As for your concerns about school, what grade are you in right now? What do you want to do when you finish high school? Have you talked to your parent(s) about the problems you're having? If so, what was their response?
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
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posted
I have earned independance. I have never smoked, done drugs, drunk, etc. I have had a 4.0 for 4 years straight. I have worked my hardest in all my classes regardless of the teacher. I have worked as a counselor in training at a summer camp. I've treated my parents, other authority figures, and peers with respect; I have proved my maturity again and again. Still, I have no freedom. In addition, the Declaration of Independance gives all people a right to life, LIBERTY, and property. The founding fathers did not believe that freedom must be earned, it is a fundamental right.
Posts: 130 | Registered: Jan 2007
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posted
I'm in 9th grade, but am taking several classes with sophmres, juniors, and seniors. I am not sure yet what I want to do when I finish high school, I'm fairly sure I'll go to college, but I haven't had the chance to try things. I'm interested in journalism, fiction writing, medical science research, filmmaking, quantum mechanics, so I don't know, but I want to find out. I haven't told my parents about my problems and don't intend to unless I need their involvement to enable me to take action and change my life. We do not have a very close relationship and say less than 200 words a day to them, many days I do not see my dad or brother at all. I run my own life outside of school. My parents don't care about my grades, I do, I do my best because that seems like the right thing to do. I decide what I do and when and how. I decide what food I'll eat this week, my parents do not know me well and so it would be futile to go to them for advice, especially when they're more likely to simpy get upset that I'm adding to their stresses in life. Mostly, I want to know what people think about the advantages and disadvantages of public and democratic school, I'm pondering them myself, but I have a lack of experience in the real world, I do not know what the result of a public high school education is or it's necessity, so I ask others.
Posts: 130 | Registered: Jan 2007
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quote:Still, I have no freedom. In addition, the Declaration of Independance gives all people a right to life, LIBERTY, and property.
True. Leaving aside the fact that you're basically not a legal "person" yet -- and believe me, I remember being a precocious teenager; I remember how that chafes -- the most I can tell you is this: putting up with this is valuable practice.
Because you will never be truly free as long as you remain a functional member of society. True liberty requires the abrogation of social and familial responsibilities that, as a decent human being, you will probably find it difficult to shrug off.
No one is "free" by this standard. I'm in my thirties and am considerably less free than I would have thought possible when I was in high school. Had you told me that I'd be able to live where I want, eat when I want, stay up as late as I want, and still feel like I couldn't live where I wanted, eat what I wanted, or stay up as late as I wanted, I would have looked at you like you were nuts. But I was naive.
I'm sure you know this, but I'll say it anyway: it only gets worse. You complain that you can't always require teachers to assign things you want to study, or force them to let you talk as much as you want in class. And I sympathize.
But.
This is valuable practice. Life is full of little compromises and negotiations between people who have power and people who do not. If you do not learn now how to reconcile your desires with the requirements of people with greater power, you will be forced to the fringes of society; life will be a continual struggle for you. You may -- like many people I know who've chosen to live this way -- believe that this struggle is worthwhile. But it is better to consciously reject those power structures only after you have established your ability to work in and around them.
From a practical standpoint, nothing is preventing you from studying the things you want to study on your own time, or having conversations outside of class on the topics you wish to discuss. When you are in class, your time is not your own. That said, your time will never be more completely your own than it will over the next eight years of your life. So use your free time to exercise your liberty.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
I would have gone to one of these, and, if the facilities were available, would have learned more than I did at my conventional school. If you grant people the freedom to do what they want, they'll do what they want. Learning was what I wanted to do.
I'd think a Summerhill-type education could bomb, for those who'd rather socialize or lay about. OTOH -- did it? jlt's information suggests it didn't. Maybe freedom really doesn't make people into slugs.
[ January 25, 2007, 11:03 PM: Message edited by: Will B ]
Posts: 1877 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
I don't have free time. I'm posting this while intermittently correcting an essay, and I have no more time to discuss this as much as I want to because I have the essay to finish and more homework after that.
Posts: 130 | Registered: Jan 2007
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quote:Originally posted by jlt: I don't have free time. I'm posting this while intermittently correcting an essay, and I have no more time to discuss this as much as I want to because I have the essay to finish and more homework after that.
I'd think a Summerhill-type education could bomb, for those who'd rather socialize or lay about. OTOH -- did it? jlt's information suggests it didn't. Maybe freedom really doesn't make people into slugs.
My experience at university and summer schools suggests that it doesn't. If I really was free to go to any class I like, I would spend many more hours in lecture halls than I do. But I'm one of those people who is considering sneaking into history lectures for which he is not enrolled.
I don't have any statistics to indicate whether I am in the majority or perhaps a rare minority.
Structured schooling is more of a 'no child left behind' approach.
Posts: 1762 | Registered: Apr 2006
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posted
I'm just curious, why is it that adults always feel that the best way to pluck up despairing teenagers is to tell them, "It's just going to get worse"? This has always been a matter of some confusion for me. Do people think it's comforting? That it'll make them want to work harder? What constructive purpose does it serve?
Posts: 4655 | Registered: Jan 2002
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posted
Also, it is usually said in regards to specific things. Most adults don't think life is worse as an adult than as a teen, just certain aspects of it.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:In retrospect these years form not only the least agreeable, but the only barren and unhappy period of my life. I was happy as a child with my toys in my nursery. I have been happier every year since I became a man. But this interlude of school makes a sombre grey patch upon the chart of my journey. It was an unending spell of worries that did not then seem petty, of toil uncheered by fruitation; a time of discomfort, restriction and purposeless monotony. . . This train of thought must not lead me to exaggerate the character of my school days. . . Harrow was a very good school. . . .Most of the boys were very happy. . . I can only record the fact that, no doubt through my own shortcomings, I was an exception. . . I was on the whole considerably discouraged. . . .All my contemporaries and even younger boys seemed in every way better adapted to the conditions of our little world. They were far better both at the games and at the lessons. It is not pleasant to feel oneself so completely outclassed and left behind at the very beginning of the race.
Winston Churchill Roving Commission: My Early Life (1930)
Posts: 1762 | Registered: Apr 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Euripides: [QUOTE]. But I'm one of those people who is considering sneaking into history lectures for which he is not enrolled.
::has actually done this::
::also bought a lot of textbooks for classes he wasn't taking, just because they looked too interesting to pass up when he was buying his own classes' text books in the campus bookstore::
::also skipped a lot of his classes the first couple of years of his undergraduate experience::
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
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::also bought a lot of textbooks for classes he wasn't taking, just because they looked too interesting to pass up when he was buying his own classes' text books in the campus bookstore::
It was very tempting, but they're so expensive these days!
Posts: 1762 | Registered: Apr 2006
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posted
These days? They've always been expensive! Back in my undergrad days, I paid upwards of $100 to $150 CDN for each text. How much is it now?
Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
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quote:Still, I have no freedom. In addition, the Declaration of Independance gives all people a right to life, LIBERTY, and property. The founding fathers did not believe that freedom must be earned, it is a fundamental right.
[pedant]
Actually, the Declaration of Independence isn't a legal document. It doesn't give anyone any rights at all. As a matter of fact, the DoI says that 'certain inalienable rights' CANNOT be given-- they're inherent in the human creature.
Which was part of your point, but you kind of got carried away...
[/pedant]
Welcome to Hatrack!
:devours jlt:
Mmm...PB&J. And banannas. Tasty.
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted
It'd be interesting to study how the students interact at places with a democratized model. Perhaps if the "norm" is for students to go be busy doing something constructive, then ones who might naturally not be as self-motivated would change their outlook.
I don't know.
I doubt I would have done well in a place like that, but not out of essential laziness, but more out of frustration if I didn't get things quickly and easily. It'd be too tempting to stick what I found fun and interesting -- there's always more to learn in ANY field of endeavor.
Then, sadly, I would've discovered that in practically every field, there are technical parts that require a grounding in more advanced math.
I'm also thinking that the success of these schools depends in large degree on the quality of the teachers and their attitudes. I mean, it's not a teacherless environment, right?
jlt: Have you thought about seeking independent study options in your school? Working with a particular teacher to come up with a plan and working with him or her to go through a curriculum you design together? Or, alternatively, joining some of the academically-oriented "clubs" in school?
I think there are probably ways to enrich your high school experience AND obtain a bit of independence at the same time.
Perhaps the administration might be more open to some of that than you imagine.
It wouldn't be the same as a democratic school, but there's nothing saying you shouldn't try to make your experience at a non-democratic institution more to your liking. Constructive action early in your time there could pay off later too.
Posts: 300 | Registered: Dec 2002
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The main reservation I would have with the idea of a democratic school lies in this one sentence of yours:
quote: There are no required classes, and sometimes no requirement to take classes at all.
So there would be no benchmarks at all to ensure that any of the students could read, write, or communication effectively upon "completion" of school (and how would we know when it was "complete"?)
For a student such as yourself -- highly intelligent, self motivated, etc. it might sound like an ideal school. You can choose your areas of strength and preference and focus on them. You learn things easily. You are probably bored in your current situation.
However, not all children are like you. I have one son somewhat like you, and one that is opposite. My younger son would not have learned anything in a school as described in your first post. Some kids don't have that drive to learn on their own as strongly as you do.
It is because we have to teach ALL kids that we have the system of benchmarks and accountability that we do.
You would probably have done well in a home school, where it could focus on your strengths and interests and allow you to move ahead at a faster rate than even your school does.
quote:I'm in 9th grade, but am taking several classes with sophmres, juniors, and seniors. I am not sure yet what I want to do when I finish high school, I'm fairly sure I'll go to college, but I haven't had the chance to try things.
(sorry for the double post)
Considering all of the above, have you considered just skipping, and going on to college now? I know others here (AJ, Tom_Davidson, and others) went on to college many years before the "magic age". If you feel you are getting nothing out of where you are now, why not fast-forward it to an environment where you do have more freedom over what you choose to study?
posted
Back in my school days, there was a guy in my year who came in on average about once a month, and still managed to average straight A+'s. I averaged 2 days a week and managed to average straight A-'s. We both failed each and every class because we didn't attend enough. We weren't warned this was important until our attendance records that year were already too bad. So I dropped out and he did the next year at a private school (I couldn't afford to go to one).
School sucks. At least here it does.
Posts: 1138 | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
jit, I'm a literature teacher at a charter school in south Texas, and I understand where you're coming from. Schools can and should include students more deeply in making decisions about curricula and rules, just as parents ought to include their children more in family plans and goals. Unfortunately, power corrupts and memory is short: we get into positions of authority over young people, and it is simply much easier to impose our will on them than to negotiate for a common purpose. Sadly, you will never stop seeing this occur in your life, and so dealing with it now will prepare you emotionally for the drain that this annoying reality puts on your soul.
Posts: 5663 | Registered: Jun 2000
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I actually posted about the Sudbury Valley School some months ago, but I didn't know tht other schools like it existed. Thanks for the heads up.
I think one of the things that 'Democratic Schools' do is that it forces children to get along with, to interact with, other people even more than they otherwise would. Far from just letting kids do what they want, my understanding is that at places like Sudbury valley school, the emphasis is not only learning for its own sake but forcing children to negotiate with their peers what happens from everything to what they eat to punishment, and the teachers were part of that process (I think).
In other words, the schools are not really 'do as you please'.
One thing you have to do when you write is to know who you're speaking to, my friend, and sell the product accordingly. Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
I'm going to offer a ray of hope for teenagers everywhere...in my case, at least, I have a lot more free time now as an adult than I did as an undergrad, and even to some extent as a high school student. (My high school was not particularly academic, so the homework load was light.) I teach now in a school system where the homework load is outrageous for college-bound kids. During the week, many of these students go to school, maybe do an after-school activity (which a lot of them feel obligated to do in order to be "well rounded"), then do homework until 11 or 12 at night. This is certainly NOT my experience as an adult.I go to my job, maybe do an hour or so of work outside of school hours (more on the weekend), then the rest of the day is mine for going to the gym, spending time with my husband, watching a movie, reading, etc....
I don't have kids and that makes a big difference in how much "free" time you have. Still, when I was in school I did SCHOOL. Now that I have a job I do my job, but lots of other fun things, too.
About democratic schools: I'll echo what FarmGirl and others have said. I think they'd be great for people who want to learn -- and thus probably for jlt! Would that all students were like that. As a middle school teacher, I'm a gentle dictator with some of my students, telling them, "I want you to learn it more than you want to not do the work...so let's take the path of least resistance together." Posts: 834 | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote:Originally posted by jlt: Sorry, I'll try to be slightly more conventional in how I post, but I'm not making any promises, I'm part of the spell check and internet generation, after all.
Believe me, jlt, I was in just about your position when I was your age. Far ahead of the other students in most subjects, tired of being treated like a kid, and sure that I knew everything there was to know about everything. You'll get over it when you learn how the real world works.
I'll let you in on a little secret. Spell checks don't have every word possible programmed into them. Additionally, if you use an incorrect word (for example, "their" instead of they're"), it will not catch it because it is a correctly spelled word, just not the one you need in that particular instance. Grammar check is even worse. It has been my experience that grammar checks, particularly those in Microsoft products, were programmed by someone who does not know correct English grammar. I can't speak to the grammar checks for other languages, as I haven't ever used one, but chances are they aren't much better.
Do yourself a favor. Don't rely on spell and grammar checks. Learn to spell and how to construct and punctuate a sentence correctly without relying on those aids. You'll be glad you did.
Posts: 2454 | Registered: Jan 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Liz B: As a middle school teacher, I'm a gentle dictator with some of my students, telling them, "I want you to learn it more than you want to not do the work...so let's take the path of least resistance together."
quote:also, of the alumini of these schools 80% go on to college and no student has ever not been accepted to their college of choice
Is that statistic particularly outstanding? I think I've read where some private and charter schools have rates of alumni attending college upwards of 95% and even some public high schools over 90%.
Will try to dig out specifics.
Edit:
Okay, this is cool. Here's a link to the Appalachian Regional Commission which works to improve conditions in the Appalachian region of the country.
quote:Each year ARC provides funding for several hundred projects throughout the Appalachian Region in support of these goals. These projects create thousands of new jobs, improve local water and sewer systems, increase school readiness, expand access to health care, assist local communities with strategic planning, and provide technical, managerial, and marketing assistance to emerging new businesses.
According to them, they've seen improvements in schools they've worked with and have achieved results like the following example:
quote:{In Hale County, Alabama} College-going rates in the five high schools have increased between 22 and 50 percentage points. All five now have higher college-going rates than the national average, with Greensboro West High School achieving a 100 percent rate in 2003.
quote:{in Missisippi} The gains in college-going rates in those schools ranged from 2 to 55 percentage points with an average gain of close to 29 percentage points. Three schools now have college-going rates over 90 percent and in one school, Jumpertown High School, 100% of its senior class graduated and then continued their education.
So, I was right - rates over 80% are certainly not unheard of. (Incidentally, I found other links from new articles and such across the country - it's an easy googling excercise to determine that while the national rate of college attendance by high school grads is indeed under 80%, it's not hard to find examples of many schools with much higher than 80% rates.) Even better, though, I found out about a cool program that is apparently making great strides in helping traditionally rural and impoverished areas of our country.
[ January 26, 2007, 02:52 PM: Message edited by: Belle ]
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