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Author Topic: Democratic schools
Tante Shvester
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I wish my doors had spruce stiles...
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pH
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Here's the thing: a lot of colleges have common curriculum requirements, which might be a shock if you've spent a lot of time only studying things that you chose.

-pH

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jlt
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So if you could choose to put a 'smart' child in democratic school or public school (or a combination) which would you choose and why?
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pH
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I'd probably put a kid in the private prep school I went to. I mean, socially I was miserable, but I gots me some good learnins that made college a much easier transition.

-pH

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jlt
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But what about in regards to general success in life, after college? So, to up the stakes, imagine that this kid is going to be president, where would you send him?
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pH
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Um, the same place. I don't see how that makes any difference.

-pH

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jlt
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Success in high school and college is not necessarily a direct path to success and happiness in life.
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pH
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I'm not saying that they necessarily are, but I still don't see how that has any bearing on my answer to the question. If I had to choose for a smart kid, my first instinct would be a small private prep school.

-pH

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Samprimary
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I would never put my kid in a democratic school unless it was the only resort by which I could avoid them being in an abjectly terrible public school system.

I'm very fascinated with the concept of democratic schools in theory, but I'm also wary of their operation in practice. My sociological studies of individual academic development -- as well as my repeated experiences with really ridiculous democratic schools -- leave me to think it would be pure guesswork and bad odds that my kids would benefit from a democratic school arrangement.

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Icarus
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You only refer to posters you agree with by name? [Wink]

I am unconvinced that playing is inherently evidence of curiosity. Further, I was not just making an assertion; I wrote about my experience working in such a school. You have, in a later post, asserted that those kids hold themselves to higher standards. My experience says that by and large they do not.

EDIT: Also, your story sounds like an elaborate justification. If you see this going on in yourself, why don't you choose to change it?

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jlt
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Icarus, I have not meant to only adress to certain posters by name, once again, this is only due to the fact that I am new to theseforums and am not sure when it is right to address a poster by name.

I'm sorry I didn't consider your previous post whlie writing my post, it was ignorant and unintelligent and iconsiderate on my part. I had only skimmed the posts and was distracted, sorry.

I think that we will have to agree to disagree, I think that children are naturally curious, and you do not, we are different people and have experienced different things and so we will not always agree.

I see your point that not everyone would do well at a democratic school, they wouldn't. But I don't think that the public school system is without its flaws. I don't know what the solution is. I also accept the fact that you have had experience at a democratic school while I have not, and that gives you more say on the subject.

I can also see having students take mandatory classes that actually had value, like basic math, if they needed to learn it. As a high school student, I think kids my age either have the perspective to decide what to learn or need to develop it while there parents are still there as a safety net rather than living in a dictatorial world where we lose a lot of our power to make our own decisions and learn how to make decisions. But then, maybe that's just the rebellious teenager in me.

You make a good point that my story seems like a justification because as I wrote it I was trying to figure out how I feel in my own mind, as opposed to writing with a clear message (probably a better idea).

I do try to change myself, and change my life to be more content and adapt to my situation, but that's more complex tan it sounds, at least from my point of view. Just bear with me in the fact that I am still a teenager trying to figure out just who I am and what I want.

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Icarus
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No apologies are necessary--that's why I put a smilie on my post. Certainly you don't need to berate yourself like that.

I certainly don't think the public school system is without flaws, and I have said as much. I don't know the solution either, and for one thing, I don't think there is one. I don't think you can serve every population equally well. The needs of the elite and those of the bottom rung are frequently at odds with each other. (For example, research indicates that ability grouping benefits high-achieving kids but hurts low-achieving kids. Well, you either help one group or the other; I am not aware of a middle ground here.)

And we can't even agree on what effectiveness looks like!

I will say that US public education does a much better job than it is given credit for in educating "the masses." Now, it may be a one-size-fits-all education, and it may be uniformly mediocre, but very few countries can even begin to compete with us when it comes to measuring the gains of our lowest achieving students. We may be doing a disservice to our top students in the process, though.

As far as solutions, the obvious (to me) first steps are not pedagogical at all. Pay teachers enough to create a healthy competition for teaching jobs, so that we are not so desperate that we need to keep inadequate teachers. For a guideline, pay teachers a wage commensurate with that paid in other occupations that require a minimum of a bachelor's degree. Second, demand that teachers demonstrate expertise in the topic(s) that they teach. These aren't enough to fix the ills of public schooling in this country, but I think they are a necessary first couple of steps.

As far as pedagogy goes, I am very "capitalist" in this regard. I am all for a healthy competition of ideas, such as democratic schools, magnet schools, mixed-age grouping, classrooms without walls, etc. Then let's watch and see what happens. My experience leads me to believe that different approaches work well for different students and for different teachers. This being the case, it would be ideal to put teachers and students in the type of environment most conducive to their success.

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jlt
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Thanks Zeugma [Smile]

I agree on your thoughts about better teachers as well as a capitalistic approach. The only problem I see with the capitalistic approach is that, at the moment, not all the types of schools are free and it would be difficult to measure the success of each student. Still, I think a capitalitic approach and making teaching a job that is desired enought that not just anyone can do it would be positive changes.

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Icarus
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*nod* Measuring quality is beyond problematic right now--whether in teachers or students. (More so in teachers, I think.)

A couple of other things I think would help a lot, regardless of the pedagogical approach: smaller schools--smaller classes are a no-brainer these days, and we're actually making slight progress on both class sizes and teacher salaries. However, tons of research shows that, independently of class size, school size matters. Students perform better in schools with fewer students, where they can know their peers and know all the teachers, and develop a sense of community. So, of course, we build enormous schools of two or three thousand or more. I know there are economic reasons for this, but if our values were what we say they are, we would work on fixing this.

Second, remove students who hinder the education of their peers. I don't care where to. Alternative schooling, drop them out, it doesn't matter. Students who don't want to be there, don't intend to work and pass anyway, and are just going to interfere with everyone else's success. I am not of the school of thought that everyone should have an education rammed down their throats: I think you have to meet us partway.

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Storm Saxon
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I like this Icarus fellow. Someone give him a movie deal or something.
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Icarus
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[Cool]

(Now you won't recognize me on the street!)

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Storm Saxon
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All you Cubans look alike to me, anyway. [Wink]
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Danzig
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quote:
Second, remove students who hinder the education of their peers. I don't care where to. Alternative schooling, drop them out, it doesn't matter. Students who don't want to be there, don't intend to work and pass anyway, and are just going to interfere with everyone else's success. I am not of the school of thought that everyone should have an education rammed down their throats: I think you have to meet us partway.
I would like to second this idea. I liked the concept of school when I was in middle and high school. The problem I had with going was that so much time was wasted by kids who did not want to be there, and either could not or would not learn the material. (I suspect the latter in most cases.) So the teachers got burned out, and the burned out teachers burned out students like me, who liked to learn but could not because nothing was being taught.

I went to a fairly small private school until high school. I was probably the smartest student in my grade. I was always complaining about the slower kids making the class drag on. For a long time, I was told by authority figures that not everyone was as quick as I was, and to be more compassionate. That point of view had some merit, and I did try to develop my empathy, but to a large extent the authority figures were wrong. It was not the slower kids who tried that were the problem, it was the kids who just did not want to be there. Why waste my time, their time, the teachers' time, and the taxpayers (or parents for private schools) money?

I support democratic schools in the hope that the uninterested kids will get the hell out of the way of those students (quick, slow, or in between) who actually give a damn.

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El JT de Spang
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I agree with the principle, but I think that, in some places removing the students who hinder the education of those around them would drop the enrollment by 60%.

Especially in really bad public schools, it seems like the kids who want to learn are almost scared to do so. At least if my friends who are teachers are to be believed.

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Icarus
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*shrug* So drop the enrollment by 60%.

Maybe those kids would value education more if they knew there was a serious possibility that they would be kicked the hell out. Or maybe not.

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Christine
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Or maybe we could look at alternatives to traditional education. I've never understood why we have gone with "one size fits all" education. It clearly does NOT fit all. Once upon a time, people used to train for careers in other ways, such as apprenticeships. Nowadays, we require a high school diploma for just about any job imaginable and a college degree for most. Yet the vast majority of the time spent in high school and college was wasted because very little of that information is used on the job.
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Liz B
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Yargh!!! [Smile]

Isn't there a value to education beyond its economic value?

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Christine
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Liz -- There is a value to education beyond its economic value for those who find knowledge and the love of learning to be intrinsically valuable and motivating. I haven't seen studies, but I would venture to guess that this is not a majority of the population.
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El JT de Spang
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quote:
*shrug* So drop the enrollment by 60%.
I agree, but you know what the next question is: where the heck to we put all those people?
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Icarus
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Put 'em to work in factories, making a quarter of minimum wage, making cheap t-shirts for me to buy! [Evil]
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El JT de Spang
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But then what will the kids in Indonesia and Taiwan do?
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Noemon
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quote:
Originally posted by El JT de Spang:
quote:
*shrug* So drop the enrollment by 60%.
I agree, but you know what the next question is: where the heck to we put all those people?
Soylent green's tasty. I'm just sayin'.
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rivka
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And you know this how, Mr. Swift?

O_O

Just what WAS the filling in that cake?!?

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Liz B
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quote:
There is a value to education beyond its economic value for those who find knowledge and the love of learning to be intrinsically valuable and motivating. I haven't seen studies, but I would venture to guess that this is not a majority of the population.
Hm. I still disagree. I think there's a value to education beyond its economic value to all citizens, not just the ones who want to learn. As you can see in this thread, I wholeheartedly support vocational education, but I think it needs to be paired with standards that we impart to all citizens--and that those standards shouldn't necessarily be limited to what helps people get better jobs.

Your phrasing just pushed one of my buttons, Christine; I think we'd probably agree mostly, if not entirely, on this issue. I just get frustrated because our society values education mostly as a means toward economic success, which overlooks many of its most important benefits. On an economic level, most of what most people learn is a waste of time, even if they're intrinsically motivated to learn. As teachers, we've learned to frame our subjects in economic terms. "By learning physics, you will learn problem-solving skills, which will help you when you're on the job and working as part of a team." Looking at education as a means to an economic end is short-sighted, though. I teach reading and English, and I teach it because I believe that what students learn in my class (ALL of the students, even the dumb, lazy, unmotivated ones) makes them better people, not just better readers and writers who need those skills in order to survive in the workplace. Most of my students are not intrinisically motivated by the love of learning. They need me there to MAKE them learn--and they're becoming better people even when they don't realize it.

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Storm Saxon
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quote:

I just get frustrated because our society values education mostly as a means toward economic success, which overlooks many of its most important benefits.

Emphatically agree.
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Christine
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Liz, I know what you are saying and I so WANT to agree with you. I have always found learning to be worth more than money, and so does my husband. I believe we can instill a love of learning in our son and in any future children we have. (He's 14 months and already loves to read...he turns the pages and babbles as if "reading" the books...it's so cute!) I think we can benefit from knowledge of history, from social studies -- in a democratic society I think these kinds of things are essential to good citizenship.

But one fundamental flaw in our society that is reflected in our education system is a misunderstanding of equality -- we need to offer equal OPPORTUNITY, but we cannot all be the same. I have no power to force a youth who can't be made to see the intrinsic value of learning the proper use of a semicolon when he knows he's going to get a menial job working on a factory line and probably never read again after he leaves school. I can't make him love to read, although it is a passion of mine. I'm not even sure I want to. I like the diversity of humanity. It is interesting. [Smile] (yeah, yeah...old Chinese curse)

I agree that we probably have very similar ideas on education. I just wish I knew what you think we can do for the children who either only see an economic value in education or worse -- who see no value in education (economic or otherwise). I'm a practical woman. Give me practical solutions and I'm on board. [Smile]

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jlt
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Most of the teachers now have to provide "objectives" for the lessons each day, good grief, it is painful to sit through their explanations of how learning the pointless fact of the day is going to forever improve our daily lives. For example: What was the colloquial name for the Farmer's Alliance and who was it founded by? Yup, I really need to know that. I see that they're preemptively answering the why do we have to learn this question, but in effect avoiding the issue.

The one thing I see as particularly infuriating is when teachers say that a certain thing is worth doing for experience in problem solving and getting used to completing assignments. Problem solving is not something that needs to be taught thousands of times. At some level it's intrinsic, maybe going over problem solving skills and strategies a few times, but watch how adept I am at problem solving: Problem: I am hungry, Solving: There is food in the kitchen, or I could go buy food, or I could wait for my next meal Solution: I will go get food from the kitchen because...
The point here is that you solve problems every day and so doing dozens of assignments to practice that skill is pointless. Same goes with completing assignments. I have completed math assignments just about every day of the school year for approximately 6 years, I really think I can do it by now and have had enough practice.

Mostly though, above is just the thoughs going through my head as the class sighs while the teacher explains how vital the lesson of the day will be to the rest of our lies.

I agree with Christine though that a problem in education is the misconseption of equality with equality of opportunity. That's what annoys me about the new NCLB measures. They mean that although I could teach some of my classes, I cannot accelerate them. It means that even though I find school painfully dull, I can't go at my own pace.

As for economic vs. for the sake of learning value of education, I think why there is pressure to focus on the economic value of education because it is 'useful'. I think education for education's sake is a great way to make people disliike learning. I.E. I am happy to learn for the sake of learning if the topic is interesting, I think that quizzes, homework, and tests on subjects that don't interest me and have no obvious use in life are a great way to piss students off.

Liz, from the point of view of a teacher, how does education make students better people? (please omit reading literature as literature always imparts ideas about the human condition which could fall under the heading making srudents better people)

Oh well, in the end, education is what it is, maybe it will change, and hopefully for the better. At least it gives you practice in interacting with a wide variety of people.

Please acknowledge that some of this borders on a rant about my having to study vocabulary such as the words "potion" and "quest" in my HONORS high school english class.

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Christine
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jlt -- You sound like a jaded student. [Smile]

I actually do think problem solving is important and improves with practice. Studies show that even teenagers have an amazingly low ability to predict the consequences of their actions. Now, the way the teachers try to get their students to practice this skill may be flawed, but I can't fault the attempt.

As for NCLB -- I think they should have called it no child gets ahead. It is one of the biggest reasons that I wish the federal government would get their sweaty mitts out of education and leave it up to the states and local school districts.

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AvidReader
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jlt, we actually had to cover the parts of speech in my dual enrollment Humanities class because most of the kids had never learned them. At 17 I had to go back to underlining the subject once and the predicate twice for a week. It was not only sad, but I wasn't sure why it mattered at that point. Even without formal training, all of these students were perfectly capable of writing a (basically*) grammatically correct sentence. So what if they didn't know a noun from an adverb?

I half agree with you Zeugma. Enthusiasm is a great thing, but I think it's important to be able to find the interesting facets of the subject. I was always bored by Henry VIII and all his wives. But I found his relationship with his sisters and other heads of state that I find fascinating.

History should be less about dates of European wars and more about what made a society rise and work and fall. I don't think we ever covered Africa, Asia, or South America except in passing. It was all Europe and North America. You'd think in 12 years we could move beyond the same dozen events.

There's my other suggestion. Less repetition between grades.

*Hatrack has taught me that there are a bazillion teeny rules that no one either knows or uses in colloquial English.

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Elizabeth
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"But one fundamental flaw in our society that is reflected in our education system is a misunderstanding of equality -- we need to offer equal OPPORTUNITY, but we cannot all be the same."

I agree.
And, though it is rather a trite expression at this point, I always tell my students, "Being fair does not always mean being equal."

Kids need to learn this, and it needs to be taught to them explicitly. I think that if kids were shown from an early age that each of them is learning what they need to learn, they would not be as quick to jump on others for getting "more" than they are getting.

Two of the students I had last year were at least two years ahead in math. As fifth graders, I could have dropped them in an algebra class. This year, I asked their teacher if they could come and trian my students in banking(our class economy). They were coming up during their math class once a week. After a while, I guess other kids decided it wasn't fair, and that they should be able to go, too, so she stopped letting anyone come up.

All she had to do, really was say, OK, here is a pretest of the unit we are working on. If you can pass it with a ___ or above, you can go up. If not, you need to learn it.

Long story short, I think we do value "equality" in a way that is different from the original intent in the Declaration.

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Liz B
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This is such a great conversation. [Smile]

Christine wrote:
quote:
But one fundamental flaw in our society that is reflected in our education system is a misunderstanding of equality -- we need to offer equal OPPORTUNITY, but we cannot all be the same.
I agree wholeheartedly with this—and another misconception about equality is that we should treat all students the same way. Students need to be taught differently depending on their needs. If Larry is the smartest kid in my class, then he should be doing different and “harder” work than the rest of the class. “Harder” is in quotes because it’s not harder for him; he’s being challenged at approximately the same level as all of the other students. (This is essentially what Elizabeth was saying above.)

I do think that offering equal opportunity sometimes means requiring someone to learn something that she finds useless on the surface. Jenny might believe that world history is a pointless class for her since she’s spending half her day at Vo-Tech learning to be a sous chef—but learning about the causes of world conflicts will make her a better citizen even if she never realizes it herself.

Christine wrote:
quote:
I have no power to force a youth who can't be made to see the intrinsic value of learning the proper use of a semicolon when he knows he's going to get a menial job working on a factory line and probably never read again after he leaves school. I can't make him love to read, although it is a passion of mine.
I can convince most students of the importance of communicating in writing, and once I do that, semicolons become much more important to them. (For some students, capitalizing the first letter of a sentence becomes more important. It depends on where they are in their editing skills.)

I do want to make all of my students love to read. When I can't do that, I want to make major progress with all of them, that they like reading better after being in my class, and see at least some value in it. One student I have this year is a great example of this. He HATES reading, and is delighted to tell me so at every opportunity. Just recently I gave him a copy of Ironman by Chris Crutcher. I know he has a crappy relationship with his dad, so I thought the book might speak to him. It did, and now he’s asking for more books like that one. He still doesn’t love reading, and maybe never will…but this experience had a value for him way beyond the fact that reading that book increased his reading fluency. (Which it did.)


Christine wrote:
quote:
I agree that we probably have very similar ideas on education. I just wish I knew what you think we can do for the children who either only see an economic value in education or worse -- who see no value in education (economic or otherwise). I'm a practical woman. Give me practical solutions and I'm on board.
For my answer, I’ll quote Zeugma:
quote:
Required classes are just fine when they're taught by excellent teachers. So I guess it's too bad we make it so hard for excellent teachers to teach in this country, eh?
As Zeugma implies, a good teacher helps children to see the value in the subject area. It may not be a practical solution, though, because it’s expensive. People who are gifted teachers can usually make a LOT more money doing other things—paying teachers a salary commensurate with other professionals requires a lot of public funds.

And then jlt asked:
quote:
Liz, from the point of view of a teacher, how does education make students better people? (please omit reading literature as literature always imparts ideas about the human condition which could fall under the heading making srudents better people)
Ack! But that’s what I teach! [Smile] Well, anyway, I’m delighted to hear the underlying assumption that my subject area is intrinsically valuable to all human beings. Seriously, though…I’m not sure how other subject area teachers would answer that question. In English—writing makes you a better person because it requires introspection, noticing details about your world, organizing your thoughts, and developing the ability to think critically about ideas. Every other aspect of English (vocabulary, editing, language study, spelling) should contribute in some way to making students better readers, writers, speakers, listeners, or thinkers…if it doesn’t, then it’s a waste of time.

Let’s lump art and music together with English, because they’re just another kind of text and thus also “impart…ideas about the human condition,” just like literature. (Nice phrasing, btw.)

Science? Values of patience, trial and error? The fact that it’s a particular way of looking at the world? Perhaps the same for math. I have a hard time with these, because I know what I got out of them, but I wouldn’t know how to convey that to an uninterested student. I can be a passionate learner in these subjects (with the right teacher), but I’d probably be a mediocre teacher, who could convey the information without being particularly inspiring.

Foreign language & social studies should increase students’ awareness that there are other ways of looking at & thinking about the world. These courses should make students aware of humankind’s capacity for love and for evil. History especially deals with the human condition.

I am not and never would advocate an identical curriculum for all students, but I think that many of the essential ideas can remain the same at multiple levels of instruction.

And as a side note, since it came up in some of the earlier posts, NCLB isn’t as wholly terrible as some people believe. It requires schools to look closely at subgroups who aren’t meeting state standards. For example, a school might have a 96% passing rate on a state reading test (which is fabulous), but what if the remaining 4% are all economically disadvantaged students? The school should look closely at who those students are and why they’re not meeting standards, and then make a plan to help those students. Without NCLB, the school could continue to ignore that 4%.

Don’t get me wrong; I’m not a NCLB supporter in its present form. For one thing, I think we need to have a much more rigorous conversation about our standards. But the idea behind it is important. Not all students should be expected to achieve at the same level, but schools need to pay attention to WHY they’re not.

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Christine
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quote:
Not all students should be expected to achieve at the same level, but schools need to pay attention to WHY they’re not.
I was under the impression (correct me if I'm wrong) that NCLB does expect all students to achieve at the same level as standardized by test scores.

Certainly, I have no problems with conversations about who is not succeeding, why, and how we can make education work for them. It was just my impression that NCLB actually makes "one size fits all" education even worse.

quote:
Required classes are just fine when they're taught by excellent teachers. So I guess it's too bad we make it so hard for excellent teachers to teach in this country, eh?
Amen!

quote:
If Larry is the smartest kid in my class, then he should be doing different and “harder” work than the rest of the class. “Harder” is in quotes because it’s not harder for him; he’s being challenged at approximately the same level as all of the other students. (This is essentially what Elizabeth was saying above.)
If you manage to do this well, then you are surely in the top 5% of teachers. I know this is possible to do, because in my life I had 1 teacher do this exceptionally well and a couple others other do it fairly well. But then, I've had dozens of teachers in my life and I supposedly went to a good school.

Parents are part of the problem. I recently had a conversation with two mothers who said that they did not teach their children anything before going to kindergarten because they didn't want them to be bored. In a totally separate conversation, another mother expressed to me that her advanced child would just have to learn to be patient and wait for the other children because that's the way it is. Maybe I'm rocking the boat here, but I want to know WHY that has to be the way it is and if we couldn't do something better.

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Liz B
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NCLB requires that states administer reading and math tests in grades 3-8. States can create their own tests and set their own minimum standards. To make "Adequate Yearly Progress," schools then have to meet certain passing percentages both overall and in identified subgroups. That's the good part of NCLB: requiring schools to look at subgroups. The bad part of NCLB is the chaotic conversation surrounding standards and what it means to pass. This is different from state to state, both in what is required and how it is measured.

Where NCLB hurts education is that it makes schools panic about being labeled failing schools. Yes, we need to focus on our subgroups, but what NCLB makes us do is to focus on teaching our subgroups how to take the test. This is usually not good teaching.

quote:
recently had a conversation with two mothers who said that they did not teach their children anything before going to kindergarten because they didn't want them to be bored. In a totally separate conversation, another mother expressed to me that her advanced child would just have to learn to be patient and wait for the other children because that's the way it is. Maybe I'm rocking the boat here, but I want to know WHY that has to be the way it is and if we couldn't do something better.
I couldn't agree more. As a parent, you'll probably be pleased to know that one of the newest educational buzzwords is differentiation. The idea behind it is that "equal" does not equal "same," and that students should be completing different assignments and even sometimes learning different things based on abilities, talents, and interests.

That said, sometimes advanced children do need to be patient and wait for the other children. But then those advanced children should be working on something ELSE. (Well, and in class discussions, sometimes advanced kids need to shut the heck up and listen to the others, because maybe they could learn something from a kid who has a different experience, even if he's not as academically gifted. [Smile] Can you tell I'm struggling with one of my advanced learners right now? *cough* Hermione Granger *cough*)

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Phanto
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We currently pay teachers 34.06$ per hour, on average. That's not terrible pay; in some areas, it's even 44$ per hour.

http://opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110009612

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Liz B
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You probably shouldn't break it down by hour, because that assumes that school hours are the only working hours for teachers. Instead, figure out how much an average salary is on a monthly basis, assuming a 2-month summer break. Then compare it to 12-month salaries for other professions that require an undergraduate degree. Then consider that some states are moving toward requiring a master's degree, & compare it to other professions that require graduate work. And remember, the point is not that teachers aren't paid enough--the point is that teachers aren't paid enough to attract skilled people away from other higher-paying and more respected professions.
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pH
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You know, my math in second grade was entirely work at your own pace. We had these different colored folders (I think it started at red and went to black, then purple? I don't remember). The folders had explanations of the concepts and practice problems. And once we could demonstrate that we understood that folder, we moved on to the next one. The teacher would help anyone who was having trouble, but I think she only spoke to me once; she pulled each student aside when he or she got to the division folder in order to explain everything. I wish it was possible for all classes to be like that.

-pH

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Christine
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quote:
(Well, and in class discussions, sometimes advanced kids need to shut the heck up and listen to the others, because maybe they could learn something from a kid who has a different experience, even if he's not as academically gifted. [Smile] Can you tell I'm struggling with one of my advanced learners right now? *cough* Hermione Granger *cough*)
I like Hermione...she reminds me of me. [Smile]

The only difference is that somewhere in mid-elementary school I came up with a system: Hand goes up until teacher calls me once. After that, I only raise my hand if no one else volunteers to answer. Only problem was, when I went to school there were a LOT of times when no one volunteered to answer....at least I tried! [Smile]

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jlt
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When I first started typing this post, I tried quoting all the points made that I wanted to respond to, and then gave up, so I'm just going to reply without quoting for time's sake.

Christine- I agree with you about the "no child gets ahead" reality of NCLB. I think that testing is important to know where students are. My math teacher gives quizzes just about every day to make sure people know what they're doing. But the key is that we're being quizzed on what we're supposed to be learning. On state standardized tests I find myself answering questions about things I haven't studied in years. Testing should not be done on such a broad scale because it does not test what a student is actually studying.

One point I was trying to make though is that at some point repetition just becomes pointless. If completing math assignments teaches perseverance then after 6 years of completing math assignments almost every single day then haven't I had enough practice persevering and completing tasks?

You point out that teenagers are unskilled at forseeing the consequences of their actions, in some cases this is very true, but I don't think classroom learning about consequences will fix this. Teenagers lack experience and trying to teach something that is mainly taught in life is futile.

Zeugma and AvidReader: I agree that a good teacher can make a huge difference in whether or not what is being taught is interesting, and that there is a definite shortage of excellent teachers. One reason is the shortage of incentives to become a teacher.

Another idea that is often overlooked is that students can be teachers. When I was younger, my cousins and I would play "school" and as I was the eldest by several years, I would usually be the teacher. The result was that my cousins learned things that I was learning at the time. Even now when they visited recently, I was working on a project for my science class and they were interested so I told them about the concepts we were learning. But in school talking is basically forbidden in class, even talking about the subject at hand. I get yelled at for quietly explaining a concept or problem to my friend. Also, one great way to learn somethin is to teach it, when you can explain something to someone else, it's a good implication that you understand the subject.

Liz- With your Larry/ Jenny example, why shouldn't you try to explain to Jenny the patterns of world history and why they're significant. In the case of Larry, teachers generally don't try to make up harder work for Larry because it means more work for them when they're already swamped with teaching 20 other kids, so Larry does the same thing. I think pH's teacher had the right idea, you can't teach each kid individually but you can give them all the material and let Larry get through it all and move on to more and and then help kids who move at a slower pace, or have Larry help do so.

With the example of giving the novel that you thought the kid who hated reading would like, that's a good idea. Rather than making a whole class read the same novel and having only one or two students really take something away from it, let kids pick their own novels to read or recommend novels to them. For example, in my pullout English class, we had to read a book of our choice each month and either take a quiz on it or write a book report on it. I chose the book reports and every book report really got ino the meaning of the book. It gave you more freedom to look at the book an analytical way. In contrast, my whole English class had to read Hemingway's Old Man and the Sea but almost noone really loved it. I'm not suggesting that classics like OMS aren't worth reading, but I think that if we had all read novels of our choosing and then analyzed them using the techniques being taught, the class would have been much less miserable.


I also completely agree that less repetition between grades would be amazing, after studying the pilgrims every year since Kindergarden, I feel I'm throughly grounded in that subject.

Another thing I see is that a lot of the time, when you're allowed to explore a subject without having to take notes on it, it seems a lot more interesting. For example, my history teacher came up with a new policy, if you get an A on a test you'r exempt from the written homework out of the textbook until the next test, but if you don't get an A on that test, back to homework.I like this system, but I also think it would be nice if we just had to learn the material but at our own pace(like in pH's second grade math class).

I completely agree with AvidReader that we should study more history than just that of Europe and North America. I also agree that we should study the patterns of history more than the events, the rises and falls of civilization. While studying events may inform you, patterns of human actions can help today's civilizations learn from the mistakes of the past.

Elizabeth- I agree with you that if someone scores well on a pretest then they shouldn't have to relearn the subject, unfortunately, in every class I've taken, even if a student scores perfectly on a pretest, they still have to do the coursework on that subject.

You also make a good point on fairness not equating equality. For example, in middle school, seventh and eighth grade, the Gifted and Talented teacher started a pullout class for the top 25 English students based on test scores, writing samples, and teacher recommendations. as I mentioned before, those of us in her class are now at the top of our various 9th grade English classes, but apparently we were lucky because the school decided to cut out the pullout class.

I agree that better students can still learn from "worse" students in debates, but much of the time the student refuses to call on the better student even if they're the only one who has anything to say. Also, it is truly frustrating when better students are forced to listen to worse students who don't understand the issue. For example, in my history classe's current event discussions, I keep up with current events so I have a generally better grounding, but the teacher refuses to let me point things out and limits me to about 4 comments during the discussion. It's frustrating, for example, when the kid next to me says how using new nonlethal weapons would provoke a nuclear attack and that we should just leave Iraq now, he doesn't even consider the perils of leaving a war torn country and I'm not allowed to point that out.


I think pH's second grade math teacher was really onto something. I think that it also works with the concept of democratic schools. What if classes were more like that class, you still have to learn the material, but were allowed to do so at your own pace. So you keep the basic structure and the teachers and scheduled classes but give more freedom within that setting and let the teacher explain what needs explaining to each student.

I too came up with a sort-of method to stop being such a hand raiser. Basically,the same as yours, don't raise your hand unless noone else does. Problem is, that makes the lessons so much longer, it's easier just to raise your and and be a know it all than wait for the teacher to move things along. In seventh grade though, I found a way to use this to my advantage. My seventh grade History teacher was 100% inept as every student in the class agreed, the worst students still had to correct him. Anyway, at one point he punished me for not working on the classwork (I had finished) and so I decided he could deal with those awkward silences when no one knew the anwer, and I would be the one who would raise my hand. It was very satisfying to watch him struggle and wait for someone to answer.

Like Christine, Hermione is scarily like me, to the last detail. Hermione's parents are dentists, mine too. Hermione has curly, frizzy, brown hair, me too. Hermione had buck teeth, me too. Hermione is a know-it-all, me too (I do try and restrain myself though).

Anyway, let's put pH's second grade math teacher in charge [Smile] .

P.S. I know I rambled in this post, sorry!

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Liz B
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Hey jlt.
quote:
Liz- With your Larry/ Jenny example, why shouldn't you try to explain to Jenny the patterns of world history and why they're significant.
I understand why you misunderstood me--I didn't mean that Jenny didn't realize the patterns, I meant that Jenny didn't realize its benefit to her. I was making the point that it's important for kids to learn things even if they think it's pointless, and that it can make them better citizens, even if they never realize that the learning in question made them better citizens. So yeah, theoretical social studies teacher would explain patterns to theoretical Jenny, and that would make Jenny a better citizen even if Jenny still thought her world history class was stupid because she's going to be a sous chef.

quote:
Rather than making a whole class read the same novel and having only one or two students really take something away from it, let kids pick their own novels to read or recommend novels to them... my whole English class had to read Hemingway's Old Man and the Sea but almost noone really loved it. I'm not suggesting that classics like OMS aren't worth reading, but I think that if we had all read novels of our choosing and then analyzed them using the techniques being taught, the class would have been much less miserable.
You know, jlt, generally I'm in wholehearted agreement on this one. I'm MOSTLY against the whole class slogging through novel after novel at the same impossible or mind-numbing pace, depending on the kid. But there's a genuine advantage to having a common text to discuss. English isn't just about reading and writing; it's also about listening and speaking. And having a touchstone text makes that discussion much easier to have. I don't think that touchstone text always has to be a full-length novel, though. [Smile] In other words, I have a feeling that it wasn't necessarily the book making the class miserable.

I do think whole class discussion is one of the times when advanced students should "wait around" for the others, since it benefits everyone. Even if my brightest student has an immediate insight, she needs to keep her mind open and listen to others' interpretations because she will benefit, even if it's by challenging their arguments. Don't get me wrong...I do like my hand raisers, and my little Hermione is one of my favorite students. But SO many times hand up means ears closed/ brain off. There's plenty of times that I don't call on ANYONE so that EVERYONE can have a chance to think and formulate an idea, or have time to refine it.

jlt, I sympathize with you about your history class, I really do. I also hate having to listen to people blather on when they have nothing to contribute. But I also have sympathy for your teacher, who probably wants to have a discussion with the class, not a dialogue with you. Other students need a chance to articulate their ideas and have them supported or challenged. Now, if your teacher isn't allowing you or others to challenge goofy ideas, then that's a whole other problem [Smile]

Let me specify that the whole class discussion should actually be a discussion, and not a fishing expedition where the teacher is trying to make kids say the right answers. If the teacher is just checking to see if everyone understands something, it's not a discussion, and I completely understand the urge to raise your hand to move the class along. I do it myself in grad classes--the "yes, yes, I get it, now let's move on" hand raise.

quote:
In the case of Larry, teachers generally don't try to make up harder work for Larry because it means more work for them when they're already swamped with teaching 20 other kids, so Larry does the same thing. I think pH's teacher had the right idea, you can't teach each kid individually but you can give them all the material and let Larry get through it all and move on to more and and then help kids who move at a slower pace, or have Larry help do so.
I can only speak from my own experience, jlt, but teachers ARE differentiating for Larry in the public school. I'm sorry it's not happening for you where you are. And it doesn't all have to be independent work with folders, either--you can do cool things with small groups.

quote:
Another idea that is often overlooked is that students can be teachers.
I'm actually not a fan of this idea for the most part because I think it's unfair for the gifted and knowledgeable for them to have to be teaching the things they already know. They should be getting to learn new stuff. (Then maybe they can teach it to someone else as an assessment of their understanding.)
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Belle
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quote:
Another idea that is often overlooked is that students can be teachers.
I am, like Liz, not a fan of this idea. As a parent of a gifted child, the only thing it's ever instilled in her is resentment. She resents teachers that have her tutor kids who resent her because she knows more than them, and the rest of the class resents her because they think she's getting out of work and then she resents them for resenting her. There's a whole lotta resentin' going on and not much learning on anybody's part.

In most schools gifted kids are treated pretty shabbily, they get assigned extra "busy" work or wind up as reluctant tutors to kids who don't like them. It seems to always be one of the first programs cut, too.

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Christine
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Generally speaking, I'm not a fan of students as teachers. Going on my own experience as a student (which I still have to use because I'm not a teacher and my only child is a toddler), the only thing that could have made my social life worse would have been to put me in a position that the other students could perceive as lording over them. (It was already hard because I was the teacher's pet and never felt I had much in common with the other students.)

Not to mention the fact that I'm honestly not a very good teacher. I remember one bad experience in high school when two friends asked me for help in math. They knew I was in calculus and thought this meant I could easily help them with algebra. I did try, but it wasn't long before I realized that I did not get what they did not get. Unfortunately, I told them so and lost both of them as friends because they thought I was calling them stupid. Quite the contrary, I had intended the comment as a personal shortcoming -- I was commenting on my own teaching ability. Oh well.

That said, there are some advanced students who fall easily into this role and manage to do it without putting off anyone else. Personal differences go beyond I.Q. or letter grades. We each have gifts. (Don't even get me started on gifted programs!)

The best teacher I had was my sixth grade teacher. She encouraged everyone in the class to do "super effort projects" and if you told her what you were doing, she did everything in her power to help you with it. These projects were purely for pride, not for extra grade, but it was really a very good way to challenge students who needed it while keeping her from having to arrange extra busy work. The super effort projects required creativity on the part of the student, but that, too, was a good thing.

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Tresopax
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I'd be inclined to think that some advanced students are very effective at teaching other students, whereas other advanced students who don't have the same social or diplomatic skills might do a very poor job as a tutor. Similarly, I think some students might enjoy being helped by a peer, while others might be very offended by it.

The real trouble with "differentiation" is that the differences are far more complicated than "advanced" and "not advanced". There are all sorts of different skills that any given student may or may not be good at, and each of them might require the student to be treated differently. The end result is that, in order to really teach students effectively, I think schools need to be able to treat them all uniquely to some degree. I think that is why small class sizes are such a huge benefit to students - but there might be other more creative methods of allowing students to all receive their own unique method of learning what they need to learn. Democratic schools are one method, because by giving them freedom, you (in theory) allow them to pursue whatever learning method works best for them. The trouble, I think, is that the kids probably don't know what works best for them, and almost certainly don't know what things they need to learn.

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pH
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Speaking of differences, I saw a video the other day about schools trying to focus more on emotional intelligence. While it was a good idea in theory, I guess, it actually made me really sad. It put such a strong emphasis on the idea that children who don't fit in with their peers at a young age will grow up to be criminals or just unsuccessful at life that it felt like it was trying to turn school into even more of a popularity contest. I'll try to find the video.

-pH

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jlt
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I don't think fiing in shows emotional intelligence.

I do think we should be taught more basic psychology in school because at a basic level, understanding commonalities in how people think is useful. I also think that skills like persuading and compromising could be reviewed (not excessively though). In a class at lunchtime in middle school some students got to take the "brain class" where the basics of how the brain worked and psychology were taught. It was not your typical snooze class but was actually useful.

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pH
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There's a HUGE difference between the ability to persuade and the ability to make friends and fit in.

-pH

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