quote:That completely failed to make it into the histories of any other people on Earth.
Granted, nobody but the Jews has noticed the Bible. Good point.
That said, I might note the lack of a solid competing historical record from 3,300 years ago. I might also mention the Ipuwer Papyrus, which certainly seems to have a striking resemblance to the Exodus account.
But mostly I would note that for its contemporaries the Exodus account is way too big a lie to have been entirely fabricated. This isn't an account of an individual revelation, or a resurrection witnessed by a handful of people. This is the account of the world's mightiest nation being decimated, leading an enslaved nation—the people this was being told to, and their children—out of slavery. For this to have been seriously claimed if there were no truth to it at all would have required the world's largest conspiracy theory.
(I will grant that it could plausibly have been exaggerated, though I do not personally believe it was. But I do not think it could have been invented out of whole cloth.)
quote:Me, I would like my gods to be at least as clever as I am.
Far more. He just doesn't share your value system or goals. Posts: 884 | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Shmuel: I think according to that view, it would be more like "Pharaoh normally would have freely chosen one course of action. Because of blatant miracles making it obvious that resistance was futile, he would have seen no choice but to do something else. God gave him a superhuman ability to rationalize away the miracles in order to make the decision he really wanted to."
Under this interpretation, I would say God definitely contravened Pharaoh's free will (I'm not providing an argument, because I'm not sure that you're claiming the contrary. Let me know.)
quote:Supposing that's the case -- and there IS a school of thought that Pharaoh did get locked into his later decisions -- what would be the matter with Pharaoh being judged less harshly for his post-plague actions? (Especially considering that most of what he's judged for took place before the plagues started.)
My concern was for Pharaoh-type scenarios, rather than specifically for Pharaoh, i.e., the notion of holding a person responsible for that person's actions is lost if, on God's whim, that person were not responsible.
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quote:Because of blatant miracles making it obvious that resistance was futile, he would have seen no choice but to do something else. God gave him a superhuman ability to rationalize away the miracles in order to make the decision he really wanted to."
Okay. You can believe this, but, IMO, it's not really a conclusion that can be reached either from what's written in the account in Exodus, or from the other material I've read.
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quote:But mostly I would note that for its contemporaries the Exodus account is way too big a lie to have been entirely fabricated....For this to have been seriously claimed if there were no truth to it at all would have required the world's largest conspiracy theory.
You know, you'd be amazed how just a couple generations put enough space between the credulous and their purported sources. Nor do we see any indication that the other civilizations of the Earth at that time gave the Israelites any extra space or respect because their God had just decimated the Egyptians. It's pretty clearly a foundational myth told from the perspective of people generations downwind from the "historical" event.
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Lisa, honestly, it makes me sad when you say things like: "Leaving aside the mistake you're making -- again -- of focusing on the text, which is not the primary source of the laws regarding sacrifices...."
The text of the Bible is the Supreme authority for knowing God's will in every particular, because that is where He chose to reveal it to be preserved for all future ages. You seem to want to give comparable or even superior authority to the mere traditions of your ethnic group, and the opinions of selected rabbis. That is not good enough for me.
Let me revisit again the idea of the Atonement, in regard to Christ. You deride the idea of anyone being the Sin-bearer for humanity. But Isaiah prophesied:
quote:"He was despised and forsaken of men, A man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; And like one from whom men hide their face, He was despised, and we did not esteem Him. Surely our griefs He Himself bore, And our sorrows He carried; Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken, Smitten of God, and afflicted. But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, And by His scourging we are healed. All of us like sheep have gone astray, Each of us has turned to his own way; But the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all To fall on Him." (Isaiah 53:3-6; NASB)
No doubt you will say I am just giving to much credence to the Bible text again.
Now, you do have a point, when you decry the pop-religious view of the Christian gospel, that Christ just was punished in our place. That is an over-simplification.
As Ezekiel 8:20 says: "The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself." (NASB)
Here is where we see the theological necessity for the Incarnation of Christ as a human being, where He assumed the place of a new Adam as the Head of our race.
Of ourselves, we as a species should have been without hope, because once we have broken with the Father, nothing can undo that. He is the Source of our life; therefore we as a species should not exist. Adam and Eve should have died when they sinned, and had no offspring. Why did God allow them to go on living, and to have children, who led to us?
It is because at the very moment the human race fell and ceased to be in harmony with God, a Seed was promised, who would crush the head of the serpent (Genesis 3:15). This is the first Messianic promise in the Bible.
When we have studied all that the Bible teaches about atonement and salvation, we conclude (from the text) that it works as the Apostle Paul said it does: "For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive." (1 Corinthians 15:21, 22; NASB)
What this implies is that Christ saved us by the same means that the first Adam made us a race of sinners. We had no part in Adam's sin; yet we are his offspring, and share in the consequences of that sin--separation from fellowship with God. But likewise we had no part in the Atonement of Christ, but may share in its consequences if we do not refuse it. Adam was the entire human race when He fell. So also by the same means Christ was all humanity when He Atoned for us on the Cross, and rose from the tomb glorified. In Him we are glorified, because we are in Him. Humanity sits on the right hand of the Father. Humanity is credited with having the very righteousness of God Himself--because this was the only way God could save us and restore us to fellowship with Himself.
We need only to become whole-hearted in our acceptance of the salvation God has already accomplished for us.
About reviewing the divine judgment concerning Hitler: Paul said in 1 Corinthians 6:3: "Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is judged by you, are you not competent to constitute the smallest law courts? Do you not know that we shall judge angels?" (See also Revelation 20:4.)
This does not contradict the fact that God is the Judge, and all judgment has been given to His Son, who has become human. It is in another sense that the saints judge. In simple terms, they review the Judgments that divinity has rendered--for all humans, and even for the angels who fell. This will be one of the things that the Redeemed will do in Heaven for a thousand years, before their return to earth with the New Jerusalem.
God desires for every intelligent creature in His universe to be fully persuaded of His justice. This is why He did not wipe out Lucifer the instant he invented sin. Thus God submits Himself to judgment by His creatures, so the final refutation will be given to all the accusations that Satan made against Him. This is how God will guarantee that sin will never arise again in the universe. This is the ultimate fulfillment of the promise God made in Nahum 1:9: "What do you conspire against the Lord? He will make an utter end of it. Affliction will not rise up a second time." (NKJV)
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quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: The text of the Bible is the Supreme authority for knowing God's will in every particular, because that is where He chose to reveal it to be preserved for all future ages. You seem to want to give comparable or even superior authority to the mere traditions of your ethnic group, and the opinions of selected rabbis. That is not good enough for me.
"Jean-luc, I find your lack of faith in the Force ... disturbing"
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quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: Lisa, honestly, it makes me sad when you say things like: "Leaving aside the mistake you're making -- again -- of focusing on the text, which is not the primary source of the laws regarding sacrifices...."
The text of the Bible is the Supreme authority for knowing God's will in every particular, because that is where He chose to reveal it to be preserved for all future ages. You seem to want to give comparable or even superior authority to the mere traditions of your ethnic group, and the opinions of selected rabbis. That is not good enough for me.
You're mistaken, Ron. The people who received the Torah at Sinai know very well what we received. You'd like to think that the Pentateuch was all it was, because you have full access to those books. But that's not the case. The Oral Torah is not just "traditions of an ethnic group". It's the word of God, given on Mount Sinai to the Children of Israel. It's the fundamental corpus of law and lore that God gave to the world.
You can pretend it wasn't, but you can't expect me to take your refusal to accept God's word seriously.
quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: Let me revisit again the idea of the Atonement, in regard to Christ. You deride the idea of anyone being the Sin-bearer for humanity. But Isaiah prophesied:
quote:"He was despised and forsaken of men, A man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; And like one from whom men hide their face, He was despised, and we did not esteem Him. Surely our griefs He Himself bore, And our sorrows He carried; Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken, Smitten of God, and afflicted. But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, And by His scourging we are healed. All of us like sheep have gone astray, Each of us has turned to his own way; But the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all To fall on Him." (Isaiah 53:3-6; NASB)
No doubt you will say I am just giving to much credence to the Bible text again.
Actually, no. That's referring to the Jews. We don't carry the sins of the world, but we're held responsible, to a certain extent, because we're the world's teachers.
quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: As Ezekiel 8:20 says: "The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself." (NASB)
Here is where we see the theological necessity for the Incarnation of Christ as a human being, where He assumed the place of a new Adam as the Head of our race.
Ick. Ick, ick and ick. That's honestly... Ron, don't you see how creepy that is?
quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: Of ourselves, we as a species should have been without hope, because once we have broken with the Father, nothing can undo that.
And there we go. The idea that we're hopeless and estranged from God, and that God didn't provide us a means of atoning on our own.
But we aren't, Ron. We're not hopeless at all. Nor are we estranged from God. He loves us, and wouldn't treat us as though we were estranged from Him because of the actions of our ancestors. God is just. The god you describe is not.
quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: He is the Source of our life; therefore we as a species should not exist. Adam and Eve should have died when they sinned, and had no offspring. Why did God allow them to go on living, and to have children, who led to us?
"and had no offspring"? Why do you say that? Do you think they should have dropped dead on the spot? Had they not sinned, they would have lived forever.
quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: It is because at the very moment the human race fell and ceased to be in harmony with God,
No, no, no. We're in harmony with God, Ron. Perhaps you don't feel that you are. I find that sad, but I'm not your shrink. But we are. And when we fall out of harmony with Him, as we all do, from time to time, He's given us a way to fix it.
quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: a Seed was promised, who would crush the head of the serpent (Genesis 3:15). This is the first Messianic promise in the Bible.
Do you know what the word "zera" means? Seed is just "descendents". It's not an individual. God said to Abraham, "Your seed will be strangers in a land not theirs." It's a group noun. Serpents bite people. People stomp on serpents. This has nothing to do with the Messiah.
quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: What this implies is that Christ saved us by the same means that the first Adam made us a race of sinners.
We are not a race of sinners. It's offensive that you say we are.
quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: We had no part in Adam's sin; yet we are his offspring, and share in the consequences of that sin--separation from fellowship with God.
Nope. God gave us His Torah. We aren't estranged from Him.
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Lisa, if we are not a race of sinners, then why do we die? Your position that "We are not a race of sinners" is impossible to maintain. Do you age? Do you get sick? Are you still subject to death? Are you living in Heaven in face-to-face communion with God? Even Moses had to be sheltered in a cleft in a rock, and could only see God's back as He walked past. Are you better?
If questioning the goodness of God and actively rebelling against His authority, as Adam and Eve did, does not sever us from connection with the Source of all Life, then why did God warn Adam in Genesis 2:17: "...in the day that you eat from it [the forbidden tree] you shall surely die."
Love and mercy cannot overthrow justice. God must always be Just, or He is no longer righteous and good. God had to find a way to reconcile both justice and mercy, love with judgment. He did. He gave us the Messiah--"Immanuel" (Isaiah 7:14) which means "God with us." (Thayer's Bible Dictionary.)
Lisa, regardless of what "Oral Tradition" you claimed your people received at Sinai (I bet you don't even know where Mt. Sinai is), what justifies you in disregarding the Bible text? Do you claim it is not the Word of God? Do you claim that what was written down at God's express direction is less reliable than what may have been passed on as oral tradition?
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Funny. But Doron Witzum, Elihu Rips, and Yoav Rosenberg might disagree with you, Leonide.
But I think the "Equidistant Letter Sequencing" supposed evidences that God did sign His name in the Torah is a mathematical fraud, so I will not make a serious issue of it. Even if some codes really were embedded, it would have to have been the work of the Masoretic Scribes.
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quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: Lisa, if we are not a race of sinners, then why do we die?
Because this world is only a staging ground for the next.
quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: Your position that "We are not a race of sinners" is impossible to maintain. Do you age? Do you get sick? Are you still subject to death? Are you living in Heaven in face-to-face communion with God?
What makes you think that Adam and Eve lived "in Heaven in face-to-face communion with God" prior to eating that fruit? There's no indication of that whatsoever. Were it the case, Eve never would have been able to eat that fruit. She could have looked right at God after the serpent tempted her and said, "Well, Dad, how about it?"
Furthermore, God said that we couldn't eat from the tree. Eve, when speaking with the serpent, said that God prohibited us from so much as touching the tree. Had she been in "face-to-face communion with God", she hardly would have made that kind of a mistake.
quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: Even Moses had to be sheltered in a cleft in a rock, and could only see God's back as He walked past. Are you better?
You seem to see a lack of complete closeness with God as being the same as "being in sin". We have to be separate from God to some degree, or we would have no free will. Or... are you equating free will to "being in sin"? I wouldn't put it past you.
quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: If questioning the goodness of God and actively rebelling against His authority, as Adam and Eve did, does not sever us from connection with the Source of all Life, then why did God warn Adam in Genesis 2:17: "...in the day that you eat from it [the forbidden tree] you shall surely die."
And they did. Well, they didn't "question the goodness of God". I'm not sure where you get that from. But "one thousand years in Your eyes is like a day that passes". Adam lived to be 930 years old, so yes, on the day that he ate from the tree, he died.
quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: Love and mercy cannot overthrow justice. God must always be Just, or He is no longer righteous and good. God had to find a way to reconcile both justice and mercy, love with judgment. He did. He gave us the Messiah--"Immanuel" (Isaiah 7:14) which means "God with us." (Thayer's Bible Dictionary.)
No. Immanuel was born at the time of Isaiah. It was a sign given to a king that the king had to actually see in order for it to have any meaning. And while it does mean "God is with us", it's equally true that Elijah means "God is the Lord." Lots of people had theophoric names in biblical times. They do today. My last name, Liel, can mean "God is mine" (not the meaning I had in mind when I chose it, but it is one meaning).
And God did all that long before some guy from Galilee died. He gave us His Torah, so that we might know Him. He gave us the means of repenting from sins so that sin would not be some ultimate blot. And so that reconciling with God would require work on our part. An unearned gift is an unvalued gift. You want to believe that God forgives people without them having to exert that sort of effort. You turn irresponsibility into a virtue.
quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: Lisa, regardless of what "Oral Tradition" you claimed your people received at Sinai (I bet you don't even know where Mt. Sinai is),
I bet I do. At least I bet I have a better idea than you do. And we don't "claim it"; it's simple fact. If you can't trust us on that, you can't trust that we preserved the written Torah as God gave it, let alone the words of His prophets. For all you know, the Muslims are right, and what we originally received was the Qur'an. And we just distorted it into the Bible you know. Of course, that's idiotic, but so is the idea that we could preserve the written text faithfully without knowing exactly what it was that God gave us.
quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: what justifies you in disregarding the Bible text?
Who's disregarding it? I mean, when God says that the Sabbath is "A sign between Me and the Children of Israel forever", and "And the Children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath," you ignore the Bible text and use convoluted rationalizations to claim that the Sabbath was given to everyone.
We don't disregard the text. We give it the importance it deserves, and we keep the laws that God gave us, most of which aren't written in that text.
quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: Do you claim it is not the Word of God? Do you claim that what was written down at God's express direction is less reliable than what may have been passed on as oral tradition?
Not less. And not more.
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Lisa, would you concur that the real Mt. Sinai was most likely Jabal al Lawz, in Saudi Arabia? That is the conclusion I think the best evidence supports.
The textual proofs I cited about the Sabbath being for everyone are hardly convoluted. The Sabbath was made on the seventh day of Creation week, thousands of years before any Jews existed (Genesis 2:2, 3), and the Sabbath Commandment explicitly calls that the Sabbath, if anyone would try to question it (Exodus 20:11). Creation Week is also cited in that commandment as the reason why the Sabbath is the Sabbath. All you have to do is read what these texts plainly say.
Just as a matter of interest, there are over a hundred languages--some of them ancient--in which the word for the seventh day of the week means "rest," or "non-work day" or some obvious variation on Sabbath (such as Sabbados in Spanish). Many of the languages have no evident cultural ties to Judaism or Christianity.
I was interested to learn that your initials are LL. Are you by any chance from Smallville? Posts: 3742 | Registered: Dec 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: Lisa, would you concur that the real Mt. Sinai was most likely Jabal al Lawz, in Saudi Arabia? That is the conclusion I think the best evidence supports.
Absolutely not. The evidence best supports Mount Karkom in the Negev. You might be interested inthis article on that site as well.
quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: The textual proofs I cited about the Sabbath being for everyone are hardly convoluted. The Sabbath was made on the seventh day of Creation week, thousands of years before any Jews existed (Genesis 2:2, 3), and the Sabbath Commandment explicitly calls that the Sabbath, if anyone would try to question it (Exodus 20:11). Creation Week is also cited in that commandment as the reason why the Sabbath is the Sabbath. All you have to do is read what these texts plainly say.
Wrong. There was no "Sabbath" as a special day for people to observe prior to God commanding the Children of Israel to observe it.
quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: Just as a matter of interest, there are over a hundred languages--some of them ancient--in which the word for the seventh day of the week means "rest," or "non-work day" or some obvious variation on Sabbath (such as Sabbados in Spanish).
Loan word. Spanish has a ton of loan words, particularly from Arabic, which has both loan words and cognates from Hebrew.
quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: Many of the languages have no evident cultural ties to Judaism or Christianity.
And Spanish is what you use as an example of something with no evidenial cultural ties to Judaism or Christianity? Ron, I'm sure you can do better than that.
quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: I was interested to learn that your initials are LL. Are you by any chance from Smallville?
Sure. And the Liel family is distantly related to the Jor-El family of Krypton.
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quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: Many of the languages have no evident cultural ties to Judaism or Christianity.
And Spanish is what you use as an example of something with no evidenial cultural ties to Judaism or Christianity? Ron, I'm sure you can do better than that.
I'm curious in a list anyways.
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Well, Ron? Inquiring minds want to know. Can we get a list of languages that call Saturday a cognate of Sabbath?
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Hey, sometimes the only way I can get people to pronounce it correctly is to tell them it's pronounced the Kryptonian way. Works with geeks; normal people, not so much. But it beats Leel and Lile.
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Just as a public service announcement to anyone reading this thread, Ron's ideas about religion, scripture, salvation, and so forth are not representative of most mainstream Christianity. As a matter of fact, they are pretty far out there.
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Here is a partial list of ancient languages, not including those from Hebrew-derived languages or predominately Christian countries. This listing includes the names of all the days of the week, which can be interesting when they all relate to the Sabbath. The last name in each list is a translation of the previous name. Notice especially the Babylonian listing, which is said to date from 3800 B.C.--which would be about 1800 years before the birth of Abraham, the father of the Jews.
quote:Ancient Syriac *Each day proceeds on, and belongs to the Sabbath One into Sabbath Two into Sabbath Three into Sabbath Four into Sabbath Five into Sabbath Eve (of Sabbath) Shab-ba-tho Sabbath
Chaldee Syriac Kurdistan and Urdmia, Persia One into Sabbath Two into Sabbath Three into Sabbath Four into Sabbath Five into Sabbath Eve (of Sabbath) Shap-ta Sabbath
Babylonian Euphrates & Tigris Valleys Mesopotamia (Written lang. 3800 B.C.) First Second Third Fourth Fifth Sixth Sa-ba-tu Sabbath
Assyrian Euphrates and Tigris Valleys, Mesopotamia First Second Third Fourth Fifth Sixth sa-ba-tu Sabbath
Arabic (Very old names) Business Day Light Moon War Chief Turning Day or Midweek Familiar or Society Day Eve (of Sabbath) Shi-yar Chief or Rejoicing Day
Arabic (Ancient and Modern) Westn. Asia, E,W & N. Africa The One The Two The Three The Four The Fifth Assembly (day, Muham) as-sabt The Sabbath
Maltese, Malta One (day) Two (and day) The 3 (3rd d.) The 4 (4th d.) Fifth (day) Assembly Is-sibt. The Sabbath
Abyssinia (Ge-ez signifies "original") One (day) Second Third Fourth Fifth Eve (of Sabbath) san-bat Sabbath
Tigre Abyssinia (Closely related to Ge-ez) One (First day) Second Third Fourth Fifth Eve (of Sabbath) san-bat Sabbath
Amharic, Abyssinia (Nearly related to Ge-ez) One Second Third Fourth Fifth Eve (of Sabbath) san-bat Sabbath
Tamashek or Towarek. (From ancient Lybian or Numidian). Atlas Mountains, Africa. First day Second day Third day Fourth day Fifth day Assembly Day a-hal es-sabt. The Sabbath Day
Kabyle or Berber. (Ancient Numidian) North Africa Day the One (First) Day the Two (2nd) Day the Three (3rd) Day the Four (4th) Day the Fifth The Assembly Day ghas or wars assebt The Sabbath Day
Hausa (Central Africa) The One (1st) The Two (2nd) The Three (3rd) The Four (4th) The Fifth The Assembly assebatu The Sabbath
Urdu or Hindustani (Muhammadan and Hindu, India) (Two names for the days) One to Sabbath. Sunday 2nd to Sabbath. Moon-day 3rd to Sabbath. Mars 4th to Sabbath. Mercury 5th to Sabbath. (Eve of Juma) Assembly (day) sanichar - Saturn shamba - Sabbath
Pashto or Afghan Afghanistan One to the Sabbath Two to Sabbath Three to Sabbath Four to Sabbath Five to Sabbath Assembly (day) khali - Unemployed-day, Shamba - Sabbath
The CPI graph (which drastically underestimates the deflation due to housing prices, just as it drastically underestimated inflation during the housing bubble).
So, inflation at the moment is at worst no higher than was typical for long periods before, and was deflationary during nearly the entire year in question (from February), meaning prices right now are lower than they were when we talked about whether there would be inflation or deflation (even using upwardly biased official numbers).
Turns out my prediction was right Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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I know this is a year old, but what exactly is the point of the big list of languages with words for the Sabbath? If it's supposed to prove that the Sabbath is a worldwide concept, then it fails pretty resoundingly. All those languages are from one language family or have historically been in contact with or borrowed from that family.
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quote:Originally posted by Flying Fish: A few days ago, a college kid was thinking about starting a coin collection.
About a year ago actually.
Out of curiosity, if Blayne had dropped his money in gold about a year ago (prices from this http://www.lbma.org.uk/stats/goldfixg ), adjusting for the rise in the Canadian dollar and ignoring commission, he would be up about 2%.*
For comparison, a government guaranteed 1-year GIC would have given him about 2.5%.
Ignoring dividends, investing in the Canadian stock market would have gained about 26%, American about 12%, developed world (minus US) about 14%, China about 21%, and the developing world about 44%.
Over a full year ending in November, if he could buy into the Case-Shiller index of house prices from 20 cities in the US, he would have lost 17%. However, he would have gained 2.6%* in the Canadian house market (across six cities).
* ignoring inflation at 1.3%
(YMMV obviously, not to be taken as advice)
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quote:Gold is pretty, and other than the slight potential for electronic wiring, its value comes entirely from the fact that it's pretty.
An important part of why it's valuable is also because of its relative scarcity.
This is truth. Salt was more valuable than gold by weight for most of the history of the world because we lacked the ability to get salt from the ground. Until the advent of modern mining, we didn't realize how common salt was, and it's value was based on the limited amount available at salt licks and surface mines.
The salt we commonly have in our houses today would have made us fairly well off for most of the history of our world.
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Blayne Bradley
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Gold is also a fun sounding word with a fun element code, Au.
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quote:We have some US savings bonds that have been sitting around collecting interest. I'm thinking seriously of redeeming them and going to http://www.apmex.com/ or somewhere like that to get some gold and silver. I have a feeling that even if the depression doesn't get any worse than it is right now, gold and silver will still hold their value a lot better than anything issued by the US treasury.
There's a much easier way to do that. I know about silver because that's where I invested, but it's basically the same for gold. You can either buy into an ETF like SLV that is basically just a whole mess of silver that you buy a piece of or you can buy stock in a silver company. I bought Silver Wheaton (SLW).
Buying silver or gold would be a good investment if we get the inflation it looks like we are.
So, just wanted to point out, the price for this stock on Feb 3, 2009 was around $6.30. It's now selling for around $33.50. It's been a good ride.
You can believe whatever stupid thing you want, but there are costs.
edit: I'm not talking about inflation. I expect inflation to come along with the economic recovery, not before. Short term, I thought it was pretty obvious that fugu was right about it being a low inflation or even deflationary period. I was honestly quite surprised by the large increases in precious metal prices (I expected some, but not what did happen), although I'm not fighting it.
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Heh, turns out we were actually in the middle of a brief spike in inflation (well, if a bit over 2% can be a spike) when this thread was last bumped. Since then, even CPI measured inflation (which, as noted, drastically overstates inflation at the current time, due to the improper method of measuring housing inflation) has dropped back down to around 1%. So, my record continues strongly.
As for metal prices, I'm surprised at their strength, too. I was definitely wrong at the time about them being a good buy. I'm quite sure they're unmaintainable in the long run, but it certainly is an enjoyable ride for the people who got in low. I suspect they've become a bad buy, now -- they might go up some, but I bet there'll be a precipitous drop at some point, and anticipating that is probably difficult.
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I expected precious metals to rise both short term and medium term, but nowhere near as much they have in the short term. I've got no idea what is going to happen when we get the recovery inflation, but I'd agree that the current prices seem really unsustainable. I'm hopefully buying a house soon, so I'm cashing out on most of my investments, and definitely this one.
I expected a move from equities to commodities to happen, and it did. I'm wondering if the rise can be somewhat attributed to the devaluation of the US dollar against other currencies - but I honestly haven't had the time to do the research I used to.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
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Antibiotics and lots and lots of bullets, to defend what you have. Owning gold has been made illegal before, if enough people start hoarding it in place of dollars, it'll be made illegal again.
Posts: 1495 | Registered: Mar 2009
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We'll never have an actual apocalypse of complete anarchy. Only a nutjob would believe in that. The Weimar Republic is more likely for us. Perhaps Greece. It's only fair to print dollars, balances us out with the rest of the world by devaluing the dollar. The dollar's value needs to be dropped in order to live in a just world.
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Forget gold. Wha'cha really need are humane zombie traps. Just catch, then release... ...at the home perimeter of your nearest survivalist. Eventually he'll be overrun, or run outta ammo. Then after the zombies are finished with the "BRAINS...", ya just walk right in and claim the gold and survival supplies. Ain't like he'll be needing them anymore. And it sure ain't as if ya'd wanna have some sick puppy who was looking forward to the Apocalypse as a neighbor after one had occurred.
quote:Originally posted by sarcasticmuppet: If you want to stock up for the end of the world, stock up on food, blankets, fabric, seeds, or fuel. Learn to sew, or blacksmith, or build engines, or grow crops.
. . .and be eaten by the zombies, since you left "bullets" off your shopping list.
Well, I guess you could pour fuel on them and light them on fire.
Zombies don't exist. The Weimar republic and Greece 2010, are historical facts....still funny, wit.
I like John Stewart too, and I'm a right wing extremist. Colbert in the bunker made me laugh. I'm just about as right wing as you can find. I'm not building a bunker, although I'll admit, I have a lot of bullets. It's a funny stereotype and right wingers have the ability to laugh at themselves. Do you?
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What does this have to do with illegal gold!
I want to get on a Silver Standard instead of a gold standard..... overall Silver is signficantly more usefull than gold for many reasons - 1. It's antibacterial, even though no one knows exactly way; something to do with simalarities to heavy metals but whatever.
2. It's the best metal at conducting electricity.
3. It's shiny and somewhat rare in nature
4. It's easy to remove tarnish (aluminum foil; baking soda; and hot water)
ignore the spelling mistakes, because I don't care anymore >;o
Posts: 461 | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Rawrain: What does this have to do with illegal gold!
I want to get on a Silver Standard instead of a gold standard..... overall Silver is signficantly more usefull than gold for many reasons - 1. It's antibacterial, even though no one knows exactly way; something to do with simalarities to heavy metals but whatever.
2. It's the best metal at conducting electricity.
3. It's shiny and somewhat rare in nature
4. It's easy to remove tarnish (aluminum foil; baking soda; and hot water)
ignore the spelling mistakes, because I don't care anymore >;o
Silver is more useful, and if the dollar crashes, so will gold. Silver will remain strong, and we may see it climb to a higher price than gold.
In a failed economy, gold won't really have a use. The only reason gold is valuable is because people are willing to trade for it. The dollar is just paper, but someone is willing to trade a good or service for it. Gold really has no use except it looks nice and it gets placed on overpriced cables. A failed economy doesn't return to the gold standard.
If the economy collapsed or if society as we know it ended abruptly, gold won't do you any good. Bottles of water, clothes, food, and oil are going to be worth more than gold.
Personally I am saving all of my bottlecaps. Once the nuclear holocaust ends I am going to be filthy rich. Posts: 1937 | Registered: Nov 2006
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