posted
Um....Ron? Am I misreading you, or are you saying that God will inflict suffering equivalent to the Holocaust on a third of the population?
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
| IP: Logged |
quote:Some of us who take seriously the prophecies of Revelation 13 believe that the Holocaust was only a dress rehearsal for what will come during the final conflict between good and evil, when all living on earth will be judged in God's final bachan proving/testing.
So god wanted to make sure he got it right when he started killing everybody, so he practiced on the jews first.
i find your ideas compelling and would like to subscribe to your newsletter
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: Some of us who take seriously the prophecies of Revelation 13 believe that the Holocaust was only a dress rehearsal for what will come during the final conflict between good and evil, when all living on earth will be judged in God's final bachan proving/testing. Then perhaps as much as one-third of the earth's population will suffer the same kind of Holocaust as did six million Jews in Nazi Germany.
And those of us who believe in real prophets know that it's actually 2/3 of the world's population that's going to get blown away. And not by other people, as was the case in the Holocaust. Actually, it's a matter of dispute as to whether it's 2/3 or 8/9 of the world's population, but then, who's counting?
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Lisa: Rashi seemed to think they were.
"In dispute" does imply that there are authorities on at least two sides. Rashi is not the only one out there.
(I'd say the dominant Orthodox Jewish opinion is "we don't understand the predictions of the future and it's best not to dwell upon them," actually.)
Posts: 884 | Registered: Mar 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Shmuel: (I'd say the dominant Orthodox Jewish opinion is "we don't understand the predictions of the future and it's best not to dwell upon them," actually.)
posted
Lisa, I don't see that you necessarily score any points racing Ron's God to the bottom of the Evil Pile. There are no prizes in the Pinewood Derby of Jerkwad Gods.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
Yes, Tom, you are misreading me. I did not say God would inflict the Holocaust on one third of humanity. I said He let us know in advance in the prophecies of Revelation that it would happen as part of the final effort of Evil to force everyone to abandon their faithfulness to God and venerate the creature in the apostate system of false religion. See Revelation 9:15, 20, 21; 11:7; 13:15, 17. God will use these events to "try" all humanity, because the people themselves will give the final demonstration of how they ultimately choose between good and evil, when the issues have finally been made clear to all.
One-third is most likely an approximate figure. And it may not mean that one-third of the human race will be true to God; some of them may be "collateral damage" as the wicked try to wipe out all the faithful who will not submit to their self-serving religious system.
While God will not prevent the faithful from suffering Holocaust, He will resurrect them and glorify them in front of their enemies just a short time later. See Revelation 11:11, 12.
While a massive number of people will be killed, the Bible also indicates that some will be specially protected, and will live to see Jesus come, though they too will suffer great persecution, being imprisoned or pursued as they flee. Texts that indicate this include: 1 Thessalonians 4:16, 17; 5:51; Psalms 91:1-17.
[ February 09, 2009, 02:50 PM: Message edited by: Ron Lambert ]
Posts: 3742 | Registered: Dec 2001
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Shmuel: (I'd say the dominant Orthodox Jewish opinion is "we don't understand the predictions of the future and it's best not to dwell upon them," actually.)
Ding!
Good advice for Christians as well.
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
If it was good enough for Jesus...
Posts: 3546 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged |
Blayne Bradley
unregistered
posted
If I could go back in time and shoot jesus in the back of the head I think I would just so we could stop having these conversations.
IP: Logged |
posted
Are you sure you'd want to make a martyr out of him? That sort of thing could start a religion...
Posts: 884 | Registered: Mar 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: That strikes me as the most racist thing I have ever read.
Nah, it isn't racist. Dobbie is just an ignoramus.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged |
Blayne Bradley
unregistered
posted
quote:Originally posted by Shmuel: Are you sure you'd want to make a martyr out of him? That sort of thing could start a religion...
Acrually if I really wanted to kill Christianity via timetravel, go back and convince the Governor to have jesus exiled somewhere far away and kept imprisoned.
IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: Acrually if I really wanted to kill Christianity via timetravel, go back and convince the Governor to have jesus exiled somewhere far away and kept imprisoned.
That's still too much work. Just tell Herod where he was really hiding.
Posts: 1080 | Registered: Apr 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
Jesus still would have given up His life anyway. Note what He said:
quote:"For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father." (John 10:17, 18; NASB)
It is speculated that if the leaders of the Jewish nation had accepted Him, Jesus would have voluntarily entered the sanctuary at the time of the Passover, lain down on the Altar of Sacrifice of His own accord, and without anyone touching Him, would have voluntarily given up His life, passing into the soul-sleep of death. All the other things done to Him--the scourgings, the beatings, the derision, the crucifixion--were gratuitous, inspired by Satan in control of wicked men, to try to discourage Christ and turn Him aside from His purpose to Redeem the human race.
This is also the point when the last shred of sympathy for the fallen Lucifer was severed among the angels of God, for in the things Satan stirred up men to do, he revealed his own true spirit and character, that he desired to kill God.
Posts: 3742 | Registered: Dec 2001
| IP: Logged |
Blayne Bradley
unregistered
posted
Dude no one cares about your fictional superman.
IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: Jesus still would have given up His life anyway. Note what He said:
quote:"For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father." (John 10:17, 18; NASB)
It is speculated that if the leaders of the Jewish nation had accepted Him, Jesus would have voluntarily entered the sanctuary at the time of the Passover, lain down on the Altar of Sacrifice of His own accord, and without anyone touching Him, would have voluntarily given up His life, passing into the soul-sleep of death. All the other things done to Him--the scourgings, the beatings, the derision, the crucifixion--were gratuitous, inspired by Satan in control of wicked men, to try to discourage Christ and turn Him aside from His purpose to Redeem the human race.
A dead body on the altar would have defiled it.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: Jesus still would have given up His life anyway. Note what He said:
quote:"For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father." (John 10:17, 18; NASB)
It is speculated that if the leaders of the Jewish nation had accepted Him, Jesus would have voluntarily entered the sanctuary at the time of the Passover, lain down on the Altar of Sacrifice of His own accord, and without anyone touching Him, would have voluntarily given up His life, passing into the soul-sleep of death. All the other things done to Him--the scourgings, the beatings, the derision, the crucifixion--were gratuitous, inspired by Satan in control of wicked men, to try to discourage Christ and turn Him aside from His purpose to Redeem the human race.
A dead body on the altar would have defiled it.
Yes but a resurrected being who was God himself would also sanctify it.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Since all the animals that were ever slain on the Altar in accord with the direction of God were types, representing Messiah, the Savior, then the body of Jesus Christ on the Altar would have provided the Antitype that fulfilled all those types and given them their true meaning. It would have been the ultimate fulfillment of the Jewish religion, not its negation or defilement. But even so, the body of Jesus Christ on the Cross served the same purpose. And at the moment of His death, "...the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom." (Mark 15:38; NASB) Note it was torn in two from top to bottom, as by unseen hands reaching down from above. Also, the veil was several inches thick. Thus at the moment of Christ's death on the Cross, the earthly sanctuary ceased to be relevant, because its types were fulfilled.
Christ now serves as the High Priest for all humanity in the sanctuary or temple of God in heaven, after which the earthly sanctuary was patterned. (See Exodus 25:40; Hebrews 8:5)
[ February 10, 2009, 04:56 PM: Message edited by: Ron Lambert ]
Posts: 3742 | Registered: Dec 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
If you can serve it in golden chalices, Shmuel, that would be nice. (Just trying to segue back into the original thread topic.)
Posts: 3742 | Registered: Dec 2001
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Lisa: A dead body on the altar would have defiled it.
Yes but a resurrected being who was God himself would also sanctify it.
No. Maybe in some other religion than the one that God gave, but according to God, a dead body is a dead body, and God isn't a corpse.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: Since all the animals that were ever slain on the Altar in accord with the direction of God were types, representing Messiah, the Savior
Gross. No, that's not the case. The animals did not represent the Messiah, and the Messiah is not a Savior. Only God is a Savior; the Messiah is just a man.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged |
In a way, the sides don't even agree to enter the same universe. Instead, we have someone arguing in a universe where the Jewish God exists and someone else arguing in a different universe over here where the Christian God exists. And allllllllll the way over here there's this person who's arguing in a universe where Jesus is just, "this guy, you know."
But somehow the objections to one proposal in one universe, say going back in time to kill Jesus are rebutted by someone working with a completely different universe and a different set of rules.
Its not entirely different from Star Wars vs. Star Trek debates when the conversation degenerates and people start pulling out stuff like whether Darth Vader could force crush everyone on the Enterprise or whether Q could snap his fingers and vanish the entire Imperial navy.
Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Lisa: A dead body on the altar would have defiled it.
Yes but a resurrected being who was God himself would also sanctify it.
No. Maybe in some other religion than the one that God gave, but according to God, a dead body is a dead body, and God isn't a corpse.
Let me get this straight, let's say the God of Israel, (ignoring anything to do with Jesus) shows up above the alter, and lets say makes the dead body disappear and then stands upon the alter.
Would God then be ritually unclean? How about if he said, "I now pronounce this alter sanctified and clean."?
Seems to me, and of course I could be wrong, that God can never be unclean, since he is God, the very definition of clean and pure.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Pffft. Corran Horn would totally blow pirates AND everyone else away. And look sexy doing it. Humbly. And with a witty line. But without levitating.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Lisa: No. Maybe in some other religion than the one that God gave, but according to God, a dead body is a dead body, and God isn't a corpse.
Let me get this straight, let's say the God of Israel, (ignoring anything to do with Jesus) shows up above the alter, and lets say makes the dead body disappear and then stands upon the alter.
What do you mean "shows up"? God is above the altar. And everywhere else. How do you get God "showing up"?
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: Would God then be ritually unclean?
What does that mean? God isn't an object.
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: How about if he said, "I now pronounce this alter sanctified and clean."?
We'd say, "Sorry, but God gave us His Torah and told us that if anyone comes to add or subtract from it claiming that the instruction was from Him, we're supposed to kill him as a false prophet. He also said that even if the person in question does signs and wonders, it's just God testing us. So no, the altar (and btw, God wouldn't misspell 'altar') is defiled."
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: Seems to me, and of course I could be wrong, that God can never be unclean, since he is God, the very definition of clean and pure.
True. Also, God can never be killed, since He is God, the very definition of life and immortality. A dead body isn't God. It's a dead body. And it defiles not only anything it touches, but any person or open vessel in the same building it's in.
[Edit: Check out Deuteronomy 13 and 18. You still have those in your Bible, yes?]
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
rivka: yes I was assuming you believed God has some sort of body or is capable of having one. My mistake.
Lisa: See my mistaken assumption in my post to Rivka.
quote:What does that mean? God isn't an object.
Out of curiosity, how do you interpret Exodus 33:20-23?
quote:We'd say, "Sorry, but God gave us His Torah and told us that if anyone comes to add or subtract from it claiming that the instruction was from Him, we're supposed to kill him as a false prophet. He also said that even if the person in question does signs and wonders, it's just God testing us. So no, the altar (and btw, God wouldn't misspell 'altar') is defiled."
The caveat being that the prophet tells you to go after other Gods. God changing his instructions is not the same thing as a messenger telling you that God has changed his instructions. You are most certainly right God would not misspell altar, but if he spelled it "alter" I should think that that spelling would then become correct.
quote:True. Also, God can never be killed, since He is God, the very definition of life and immortality. A dead body isn't God. It's a dead body. And it defiles not only anything it touches, but any person or open vessel in the same building it's in.
Did you not notice where I said, (ignoring anything to do with Jesus.) I was not saying that there was any relation to the dead body and God himself. I was just asking that if God came down, made a dead body disappear from off the altar and pronounced it clean, would said altar then become clean.
I made a mistake forgetting you don't believe God has any sort of physical form. Apparently he could not appear to anyone in any recognizable form. edit: Or would not rather than cannot?
posted
Lisa, just out of curiosity, what do you regard the purpose of those animals that were sacrified to have been, if not to confess one's sins AND confess faith in God's provision for our salvation in the coming Sinbearer who would really bear our sins and pay for them? Do you believe that the blood of bulls, goats, and lambs had redemptive power in itself? Do you think that if you sin against God, then kill a lamb, that puts you at peace with God, in and of itself? Confession, even accompanied by repentance, does not constitute atonement.
Or do you think it does? I seem to recall you saying something some time ago that sounded like you were saying repentance is all the atonement we need. I have to question whether that could bring us back into full fellowship and approval with God. If Adolph Hitler were to be resurrected, and he said, "I'm sorry," would that be sufficient for you? If that were all God required, would He be Just?
Posts: 3742 | Registered: Dec 2001
| IP: Logged |
Printer-friendly view of this topic
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Rashi is not the only one out there.![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
