In a post-apocalyptic world there will still be a demand for gold.
Every would be war-lord, petty-king, and would be tyrant will want gold.
Yes, they will want to bedeck their harem with it. They will want to appease their wives or husbands. They will want to look good.
But mostly they will want it to show that they can afford it.
Wealth is not only a path to luxury. It is a deterrent. If King Bling can afford a Gold crown, then he must have enough money to buy the best weapons for his soldiers. He must be a great leader, well able to defend himself, if he can stroll around with that gold all over.
Posts: 1941 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: I suspect that even the people who are very wealthy would be more likely to seek some of the luxuries we've all come to view as necessities long before they'd be looking for gold.
Good point. I suspect that working batteries would be an extremely valuable luxury item after a few years.
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Blayne Bradley
unregistered
posted
i meant "not" as it its just wont be nuitrisious.
Well we can assume Fallout 3 as a 9 with 28 Days later as a 10. With WWII but with Nukes as per Harry Turtledove books as a 1, with the number depending on how many nukes get detonated in populated areas.
Actually lets put Jericho as a 1 and WWII with Nukes as a 5.
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posted
We have some US savings bonds that have been sitting around collecting interest. I'm thinking seriously of redeeming them and going to http://www.apmex.com/ or somewhere like that to get some gold and silver. I have a feeling that even if the depression doesn't get any worse than it is right now, gold and silver will still hold their value a lot better than anything issued by the US treasury.
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quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: Gold is also very useful for electron microscopy and a wide range of interfacial technologies. I can think of dozens of things I've used gold for in the lab.
Of course, by "electron microscopy and a wide range of interfacial technologies", The Rabbit actually means "sitting on and laying my eggs in", and by "lab" she actually means "lair".
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quote:I have heard that truly 100% gold would be translucent. Regular gold owes its characteristic opaque color to trace impurities.
As far as I understand it (and I'll admit my understanding is shaky), elemental metals are capable of absorbing a very wide range of energies (I think that's due to the fact that the electrons don't stick with one atom, but float around in a sea of electrons and therefore have a wider range of energy states available). It's not physically possible for a brick of gold to be transparent, although as sarcasticmuppet pointed out, you can hammer it so thin that some of the light does make it through without being absorbed. I think that's because gold is more malleable than other metals, though, not because of any unique optical properties.
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quote:We have some US savings bonds that have been sitting around collecting interest. I'm thinking seriously of redeeming them and going to http://www.apmex.com/ or somewhere like that to get some gold and silver. I have a feeling that even if the depression doesn't get any worse than it is right now, gold and silver will still hold their value a lot better than anything issued by the US treasury.
There's a much easier way to do that. I know about silver because that's where I invested, but it's basically the same for gold. You can either buy into an ETF like SLV that is basically just a whole mess of silver that you buy a piece of or you can buy stock in a silver company. I bought Silver Wheaton (SLW).
Buying silver or gold would be a good investment if we get the inflation it looks like we are.
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posted
The current environment looks pretty strongly deflationary, rather than inflationary.
That will change when growth resumes, of course, but that obviates the motivation for gold and silver, anyways. And under a deflationary regime, something that pays actual interest (such as a savings bond) is a great thing.
Only get out of US savings bonds to the extent think the government is going to effectively disappear. The gov't would default on loans and entitlements before it would renege on savings bonds.
I mean, gold and silver's past prices show higher volatility and lower returns than other long run investments (in the long run), and they don't perform particularly well compared to guaranteed instruments like savings bonds in recessions, either. Absent the gov't disappearing, the evidence suggests they are a bad investment at the moment (and in general). Especially if you might need to cash out at short notice, given the extreme volatility.
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posted
Even with the commercial paper market crash (the Perfect Storm a bunch of the 'invest in gold' types were pointing to), gold has been a rather poor long-term investment. Commodities also regularly fail to escape economic crises and you never want to have your investments hedged on just one category, including precious metals, bullion, whatever.
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quote:Originally posted by fugu13: The current environment looks pretty strongly deflationary, rather than inflationary.
It's February 3, 2009. If we're still around next year, I'm going to bump this and see what you think about that statement in retrospect.
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edit: I should note that inflation, even measured by the very flawed CPI, has dropped precipitously in the past several months. Using better measures of housing prices (a bad measure of housing prices is one of the many problems CPI has) shows an even greater drop.
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quote: "If the economy ever really collapses, gold will be largely useless in barter."
I really don't believe this at all unless you are talking about an apocalypse of Biblical proportions. Otherwise, gold is malleable for jewelry and fine products. There are other metals that can be said the same thing about them.
I think the reason gold is a favorite among some is because they think (at least I do to a small degree) that an economic collapse will actually be a dollar collapse. The world and life will go on. There will be no Mad Max scenario, but there could be a painful currency transition.
Out of the collapse of the dollar will spring a new currency. It might be a new global standard for a different currancy like the Euro or Yuan, a new currancy like an Amero, or a global restructuring of major currencies so that there is more then one dollar center of gravity.
Gold would maintain it's purchasing power so you could easily convert your wealth to the new defacto currency.
Having gold is not about bartering, it is about not loosing wealth in a currency transfer or dollar collapse. It is insurance.
Edit: Wanted to note that I agree completely with...
quote: Commodities also regularly fail to escape economic crises and you never want to have your investments hedged on just one category, including precious metals, bullion, whatever.
posted
to elaborate just a bit further, silver is actually a better conductor than gold. As mph indicates, gold does not oxidize readily, so it makes for better contact points, which is why gold plated audio cables are popular and why gold is often used for high quality electronics. The best wiring would be gold-plated silver.
I always found it interesting (and it is not a coincidence) that the three best conductors (gold, silver and copper) are all in the same group on the periodic table. What Shigosei says about the free electrons bouncing around in the middle is what helps them be such good conductors of electricity (low electronegativity helps, too, I believe)
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quote: always found it interesting (and it is not a coincidence) that the three best conductors (gold, silver and copper) are all in the same group on the periodic table.
They are also generally come out of the same hole in the ground. They occur naturally in a mixed ore.
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posted
Lisa, I am sure you know that affluent European Jewry survived nearly 2,000 years of persecution and periodic pogroms by keeping as much of their wealth as possible in the form of precious metals and gems--which could be picked up and carried away with them with little or no notice. That should provide a profound demonstration of the utility of doing what you suggest. Safekeeping the core of your wealth in gold or other precious metals and gems (though less so now with gems) is a strategy that has withstood the test of the ages. Here is how a people found a kind of recurring apocalypse to be survivable.
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Blayne Bradley
unregistered
posted
quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: Lisa, I am sure you know that affluent European Jewry survived nearly 2,000 years of persecution and periodic pogroms by keeping as much of their wealth as possible in the form of precious metals and gems--which could be picked up and carried away with them with little or no notice. That should provide a profound demonstration of the utility of doing what you suggest. Safekeeping the core of your wealth in gold or other precious metals and gems (though less so now with gems) is a strategy that has withstood the test of the ages. Here is how a people found a kind of recurring apocalypse to be survivable.
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: Gold is also very useful for electron microscopy and a wide range of interfacial technologies. I can think of dozens of things I've used gold for in the lab.
Of course, by "electron microscopy and a wide range of interfacial technologies", The Rabbit actually means "sitting on and laying my eggs in", and by "lab" she actually means "lair".
quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: Lisa, I am sure you know that affluent European Jewry survived nearly 2,000 years of persecution and periodic pogroms by keeping as much of their wealth as possible in the form of precious metals and gems--which could be picked up and carried away with them with little or no notice. That should provide a profound demonstration of the utility of doing what you suggest. Safekeeping the core of your wealth in gold or other precious metals and gems (though less so now with gems) is a strategy that has withstood the test of the ages. Here is how a people found a kind of recurring apocalypse to be survivable.
Yeah, because Jews were the ONLY ones who ever owned gold, and nobody else EVER had a history of conspicuously wearing their wealth on their person or keeping it in their home. :eyeroll:
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quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: Lisa, I am sure you know that affluent European Jewry survived nearly 2,000 years of persecution and periodic pogroms by keeping as much of their wealth as possible in the form of precious metals and gems--which could be picked up and carried away with them with little or no notice. That should provide a profound demonstration of the utility of doing what you suggest. Safekeeping the core of your wealth in gold or other precious metals and gems (though less so now with gems) is a strategy that has withstood the test of the ages. Here is how a people found a kind of recurring apocalypse to be survivable.
I'm... wow. I'm speechless. And I think people here know how rare that is.
You live in a fantasy world, Ron.
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quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: Lisa, I am sure you know that affluent European Jewry survived nearly 2,000 years of persecution and periodic pogroms by keeping as much of their wealth as possible in the form of precious metals and gems--which could be picked up and carried away with them with little or no notice.
Where to begin? European Jewry in general was anything but affluent. (A few European Jews, yes. They were exceptions.) And Jewry survived not through canny survival techniques, but by spreading out thinly enough so that when some communities got stomped out, a few others were always left elsewhere.
But I suppose once you eliminate those bits, I can't quibble with what remains. (What remains is "Lisa.")
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posted
If you agree with Blayne, it implodes; if you agree with Lisa, it explodes. That way the disasters cancel and nothing happens.
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quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: I have heard that truly 100% gold would be translucent. Regular gold owes its characteristic opaque color to trace impurities.
I have not heard of any case inwhich gold is toxic. But I have not researched the subject.
One of the disadvantages of silver is that it is almost always found contaminated with lead, and the lead has to be purified out. Any purification process is less than 100% effective.
No. Pure gold would still be gold colored. Think how delocalized the electrons are in a good metallic conductor, like gold.
As pointed out earlier, gold is a heavy metal, try hard enough and you could make it toxic. That being said, you might have to try pretty hard.
I see no reason to believe that we cannot purify silver to any required level. The problem here is that increasing purity levels may become rather expensive. And I'm not seeing what the problem is, what are we using silver for that requires more than a 9 or two?
quote:Originally posted by Shigosei: If you agree with Blayne, it implodes; if you agree with Lisa, it explodes. That way the disasters cancel and nothing happens.
quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: Lisa, I am sure you know that affluent European Jewry survived nearly 2,000 years of persecution and periodic pogroms by keeping as much of their wealth as possible in the form of precious metals and gems--which could be picked up and carried away with them with little or no notice. That should provide a profound demonstration of the utility of doing what you suggest. Safekeeping the core of your wealth in gold or other precious metals and gems (though less so now with gems) is a strategy that has withstood the test of the ages. Here is how a people found a kind of recurring apocalypse to be survivable.
You're the guy behind timecube, aren't you?
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(But really, you're probably not as wrong even as often as a broken analog clock. Although I think we'll have to agree to disagree on the whole Mao thing.)
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posted
The European history that I learned included the fact that it was Jewish lenders who kept lending to the European aristocracy that kept the latter financially afloat, until the debt became too huge, at which point the aristocracy would arrange for a pogrom. But the Jewish lenders knew their history, and kept at least some of their wealth in readily portable gems and precious metals. This kind of thing went on over and over again, all through 2,000 years of European history. It is shameful for European aristocracy, but I have always admired the cleverness of the affluent Jewish lenders. They did what they had to do to survive.
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quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: The European history that I learned included the fact that it was Jewish lenders who kept lending to the European aristocracy that kept the latter financially afloat, until the debt became too huge, at which point the aristocracy would arrange for a pogrom. But the Jewish lenders knew their history, and kept at least some of their wealth in readily portable gems and precious metals. This kind of thing went on over and over again, all through 2,000 years of European history. It is shameful for European aristocracy, but I have always admired the cleverness of the affluent Jewish lenders. They did what they had to do to survive.
You're a bit nutty on this, Ron. Among the people who lent money were Jews, because there were laws preventing us from engaging in other occupations. But there were very few such people. Most Jews were impoverished.
The explusions were generally led by the clergy, for religious reasons. I can understand why someone of your religious background might want to exonerate your co-religionists by making it into an economic thing, but it simply isn't the reality.
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quote:Originally posted by Lisa: You're a bit nutty on this, Ron.
Ron did say that it was the history he was taught, not some theory he came up with. And while it may be inaccurate, that sounds a lot like the history I was taught in high school. History seems to be one of those topics were inaccurate portrayals are extremely common.
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Blayne Bradley
unregistered
posted
I remember when in grade 7 when we were being told the maritime tradign states my teacher said "Italy" I corrected her that Italy wasn't unified until 1870(ish) and that during that time period italy was divided into a number of city states with Genoa and Venice as the primary traders.
posted
You know what's in wieners? Well, there's cow's eyes, and dog's heads, and old phone books, and, of course, wiener flavor.
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quote:I hope one day I can find someone to marry me who doesn't want a diamond ring, as buying one would seriously compromise my ethics.
If you end up with someone who does want a diamond, you can get a Polar Diamond from Canada. Still artificially expensive for something pretty and worthless, of course, but no slave labor worries. Alternately, you can take a trip to Arkansas together and dig up your own diamond in the diamond field national park there. Much more romantic and meaningful.
Thanks for the helpful advice
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Aww man, and I though I was everybody's type. Oh well, looks like I'll have to fly the folks back home
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posted
Lisa, from time to time, over the course of nearly a thousand years, the official church clergy called upon secular leaders to send armies up into the Piedmont mountain valleys to try to kill all the Waldenses--Christians who maintained the original Christianity of the Scriptures, and did not recognize the authority of the Pope. The clergy tried to foment distrust and hatred of the Waldenses by telling everyone that their children were born with one eye in the middle of their forehead, and other such nonsense.
The point is, Jews were not the only ones attacked by the official clergy.
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posted
I think he was basically saying, "Suck it up, Lisa. Christians attempted genocide on more than just you."
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quote:The explusions were generally led by the clergy, for religious reasons. I can understand why someone of your religious background might want to exonerate your co-religionists by making it into an economic thing, but it simply isn't the reality.
I don't understand how "making it an economic thing" is any better. You can't pay your debts so you eliminate your creditors? How is that morally any better than not liking their religion?
Not saying it's true, just saying that it doesn't really seem like a good way to exonerate anyone.
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posted
Lisa, I would never say to you to "suck it up." Nobody should be treated the way the Jews have been treated. What I was trying to convey was the fact that your people have not been alone in suffering; the same evil has been directed at others, though not for as long or on such a large scale at times.
This is just my own theory, but I suspect that the Jews have come in for so much hatred and persecution because through them the Ten Commandments were communicated, through whom all humanity will be judged (despite what your rabbis say about the Ten Commandments being only for the Jews). Also I believe it is because God originally chose your people to stand for Him and be His witnesses in the world, through whom the promised blessing made to Abraham has come to all the faithful. That reflects a theology that may be confusing to you, but it means a lot to me.
Some of us who take seriously the prophecies of Revelation 13 believe that the Holocaust was only a dress rehearsal for what will come during the final conflict between good and evil, when all living on earth will be judged in God's final bachan proving/testing. Then perhaps as much as one-third of the earth's population will suffer the same kind of Holocaust as did six million Jews in Nazi Germany.
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