posted
Thank you for your concern and sympathy to the London Hatrackers.
Thank you for your mourning of people who live far from you.
Thank you for thoughts and prayers for Londoners and all others who have and continue to suffer at the hands of terrorists.
I’m amazed by the calm efficiency that London is responding with. Our years living under threat of the IRA have clearly left their mark and kept us safe until now. We’re thankful that we have got off lightly … Madrid and 9/11 were so much worse.
London is strangely quite with helicopters above the palace. People are contemplating long walks home (2 – 3 hrs) rather than using public transport.
We will recover, we will host the Olympics in 2012. We will continue to protest against the rich exploiting the poor, we will continue to work towards peace in the middle east and hope that moderate leaders will join us at the table. We will continue to protest against ‘terror laws’. We wont let them win.
Posts: 571 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged |
quote:I still remember March-April two years ago, when we had God knows how many explosions. The English government, BBC and Skynews didn't give a damn. The reporers didn't even look at the Israeli side of what's going on.
And now they get an explosion. Well, at least they know now what it is to live in fear.
And from the Begging the Question thread:
quote:Because England is blowing up.
I just want to say that I find your delight in this event beyond appalling. I don't give a damn what your personal feelings toward England are, but the fact that you would look at these bombings with glee, regardless of what the past circumstances of you or your country may have been, has just earned you my contempt for life.
posted
I've just heard from my best friend who got married three weeks ago and moved to London this past week. She and her husband were downtown during the attacks, but they have finally made it home. It took over 2.5 hours for them to get to the place they are staying which is somewhat outside London from what I understand. She reports that the phones most places continue to be out of service due to the high demand.
She says that she has been extremely encouraged by people's reactions, that for the most part they are smiling and calm and going about their days. That amazes me. Humans are truly so resilient.
I certainly feel better having heard from her and knowing that she's ok. To the rest of you who are worried for loved ones, you are in my thoughts.
Posts: 186 | Registered: Dec 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
*panics* My parents are in London! *goes off to check email* Oh, phew! That's right -- they're in Zürich this week. Went yesterday.
Yesterday I was hearing about England hosting the 2012 Olympics, and now this!
HS is indeed originally from England, but he identifies as Israeli -- and identifies his father, with whom he seems to spar a lot, as from England. Regardless, his comments were disgusting. When people said similar things about 9/11, I was equally appalled.
It takes a certain something to twist the knife like that. And it ain't something good. HS, this is hardly the behavior of רחמנים, בישנים, וגומלי חסדים! Grow up.
To all of you in London and environs: please stay safe!
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Haloed Silhouette: I still remember March-April two years ago, when we had God knows how many explosions. The English government, BBC and Skynews didn't give a damn. The reporers didn't even look at the Israeli side of what's going on.
And now they get an explosion. Well, at least they know now what it is to live in fear.
No one likes your country 'cause you're rude.
Posts: 3564 | Registered: Sep 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
I find out everything so late, being on the west coast of the US. I just found out about this when I checked my livejournal(I hadn't turned on the news this morning.) I am in tears. I feel for everyone that doesn't know the whereabouts of their family and friends and I'll be praying for their relief.
Posts: 6415 | Registered: Jul 2000
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Tatiana: We really have to avoid contention among those of us who are against terrorism. It's important that we all pull together. Contention makes things worse not better.
I've been trying to think of a non-bitter way to say this, but the best I can do is: this is why the opinions people express need to be careful and thought out and why wild allegations and rampant, unproductive blamecasting are such dangerous things.
Edited to, hopefully, make it clear that I was not directing my comments to Tatiana.
posted
I heard about this when I woke up this morning, but I had to go off to work so I couldn't check the updates later.
It's very horrible. Thankfully, I know few people in London, although there are a few that I know are sometimes there that we haven't got a hold of yet. My heart goes out to all the injured and killed, their friends and family. This attack well and truly hit home for me, even though I'm so far away.
posted
I think you all got me wrong. Rivka, I'm indeed English many generations back, I identify partially with the Jewish people - I'm no strict Israeli. My father is not English.
I was not twisting knives; if you even bothered to look at my post without being so damn biased about me, you'd see that I was referring to the English government's approach, and what the main media stations made of the whole project.
I certainly don't regard the fact that England got mass-bombed as a matter of glee. The Begging the Question thread has absolutely nothing to do with this, aside the fact that the nature of its comments is rather unrealistic, so I basically take this thing to extreme. There was no glee in that, mind you, and if your mind is so damn perverted that you twist my words into life contempt - then life contempt is what you deserve.
If jeebus202 think that "my" country - as a collective - is rude, then he's no damn better than what was said about me - having certain negative "feelings" for England as a whole. That just goes on as one more irrelevant and inappropriate remark of his.
As for KoM's remark of "I suggest that children who know nothing of history have a nice hot cup of STFU" - I think that the one who should shut the **** up is he. Again, prejudice remarks; don't think for a single minute I know "nothing" about Irish-English history. True, I'm no expert in that arena, I never said I was, but to immediately classify me as an absolute knowledge-lacker in history is a) rude; b) prejudice; c) loaded with personal contempt of one form or another; and d) wrong.
"HS: You *had* to answer that, didn't you?!" While I can understand Corwin's point of view, I do believe that if someone suddenly tells me to shut the **** up does deserve a reply. I wasn't comparing suffering, I was simply telling KoM - who was comparing suffering (which was Corwin's argument in that post - not to do that stuff) that he HIMSELF seems to be in the direction of "knowing nothing" about the factors involved - that "knowing nothing" bit is part of the reason he told me to shut the **** up.
Regarding another statement of mine that "I know what it's like" - that was sympathy. Knowing what a hurt person feels and having a mutual understanding of the pain is sympathy by definition. Corwin's reply to that was "Well, if you DO know what it's like, don't make us think you're gloating over it... If you want to blame reporters, do that, but the Londoners have nothing to do with that, so what is it to you if they live in fear right now?! As someone who has been through something like that it seems to me that you should sympathize with them".
I wasn't making you think that I'm gloating over it. Whether you infer vanity into that feeling or not is not part of my post. I did blame the general attitude of reporters, and I never said it had anything to do with the Londoners, except that they were reporting similar attacks. "It is to me that they live in fear right now" that they know what it's like, and therefore I can sympathise them and vice-versa with greater understanding of what's going on out there! So yes, it is sympathy, and if you didn't realise it by now - there's your proof. I do sympathise with them, and I'm sorry it wasn't clear before.
For your information, I have some family there, and we've been trying to contact them for about 10 hours - but the phone network is down or something. I am not gloating over it, and certainly have no glee.
HS/JH
=== At the time of writing this post, the previous post was Teshi's at 21:16 my time, opening with the words: "I heard about this..."
Posts: 358 | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
More than 700 injured now. Around 40 dead, and around 50 of those 700 are critical or serious condition.
I think what makes it so much worse, is that the attacks came on the same day that Londom was hosting a summit committed to ending poverty in Africa and halting Global Climate Change. It makes so much less sense, and seems like such a more offensive crime against the planet, let alone just the people.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
HS, may I suggest that you take a step back for a moment? The fact that so very many people in this thread found your comments offensive indicates that you should at least consider that your phrasing is at fault, not our interpretation. The mature thing to do here is to apologize for any unintended offense, assure the people of London that your thoughts are with them, and leave it be.
Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
Jonathan, please don't play the freaking martyr. Forty people (at least) die, we object to the way you are showing your "sympathy", and then you act self-righteous about our objections.
Grow up, or failing that, shut up.
Edit: and listen to Eljay.
Posts: 5656 | Registered: Oct 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
Honestly? When it's one line at the end of a huge justification of why your original statements weren't offensive and everyone is out to get you, not really. Plus it's a statement of sympathy, not an apology for the prior offense, which is what I suggested.
Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Your initial reaction, JH, was inappropriate and it's hard for people to forget that. Do not wish harm on other people, even if you're stinging/hurting yourself.
Can we focus on what happened in London, please, and not on what people may or may not have said?
Posts: 8473 | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Jebus, you're acting like a true moron. I'm saying "like" because you've had insights before, and I know you're not a moron. But now for the "like" bit:
For a start, you don't know a tenth of the people I know, so by saing "lies" you're being a childish, ostentatios, boasting blob of slime. Secondly, your claim "racist" does not rely on the parantheses at the end of the paragraph. Thirdly, I don't give a damn whether you accept the apology or not; I was being polite - something that I don't really wish to be now.
If this was intended as three jokes, they're in the wrong place. I personally think this is what's truly off limits. Maybe my phrasing wasn't ideal back then - but it was relevant and dealt with the topic with some sense of respect, whether inferred or not. You, though, are being pathetic.
Posts: 358 | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Sometimes, HS, being sympathetic is being able to give people what they need, and commiserating in a way they can appreciate. This isn't about you (and shooting back with "I'm not the one making this about me" won't help).
My thoughts go out to those in the city. I can only hope that I would be able to deal with a similar event with such stoicism.
Posts: 3243 | Registered: Apr 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
Please regard my last post (intended at jebus) as obsolete. I'm off this thread - for now. When I wrote that (jebus-related) post, the following posts were not on yet.
posted
I am so sorry to hear about it. I have been following the news since one hour after it happen I am amazed with how well they are handling it. I cannot know how they fill but I do now that nobody should go through this. My prayers are with the people of England and especially with the Londoners.
Posts: 69 | Registered: Sep 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I'm worried about her, too, but I remember the phones are very tied up, also it's late at night now, so it may be a while before we hear anything.
Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
I heard on the radio that there have been several official requests that people not try to call until the demand isn't so high. I'm not sure I could comply with that if my loved ones were there.
posted
We have more British Hatrackers than I realized, I have learned from reading this thread. Are there yet more we haven't heard from yet? Where is that thread where everyone posts where they are from?
posted
Phone systems are generally built on the presumption that most people aren't going to be using them at any given time. Typically, a small city (pop < 10,000) will be served by 24-48 trunks...
Assuming that there's even more compression at higher populations, there's going to be a lot of busy signals for a long time...
Posts: 3846 | Registered: Apr 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
So, London is falling asleep at last, it's been a strange evening, we all walked home (!) and for once couldn't grumble about our awful tube system. A more than usual number of people gathered at the local pub ... something about being with our comunity at this time.
Disturbing reports are coming through from 'un official' sources, the bomb on the bus was likely to be the driver. He got off the bus before setting it off, unfortunately he didn't get far enough away from the blast.
We've been saying not if but when for 4 years. We joined the war on terror, we invaded Afganistan, we invade Iraq, we did it for our own ends, we did it without legal backing. We did it without legal merit and we knew we would pay the price. The price is here and honestly, it is not as bad as I feared. But then I haven't lost anyone dear to me - I don't think.
I remember on 9/11 posting the question to US citizens what part they played in creating an environment in which somewhere, someone it the world thought the most meaningful act of their life was to wreak vengance. And now I must ask myself the same question.
I did not vote for this government, or the last one, but the reality is that the alternative party would likewise have participated in the 'war on terror' and honestly I'm glad the choice isn't up to me. I'm not Gandhi and I like my life with electricity and running water.
England has behaved abysmally through much of history (wars between catholics and protestants, crusades). So we are in no position to preach ... but maybe we have experiences and lessons that we have learnt to put into the pot of humanity.
We have lived under a terrorist threat for over years 30 years and we do nearly have peace now, perhaps others could learn that when attacked by a wasp hitting the hive with a tennis racket may not be wise, but rather build your defences, be vilgilent and move on to the next generation.
Our papers support are clearly biased towards the Palistinans. Partly British tradition of supporting the underdog. Maybe our way of redressing the balance of other media but still not helpful. Some honest unbiased reporting might help create mutual understanding rather than a war of retaliatory words with a back drop of retaliatory action.
More than ever I feel sad that in a world where some are trying to learn from the past and move away from our cycle of vengence as seen by the G8 agenda we are still pulled back into the world of vengence. I'm naive, I know, but .... if the alternative is hate then I know where I would rather be.
Posts: 571 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
I will say this, It is a little saddening to see a topic like this turn into so much bickering and arguing back and forth. If I see a man broken on the side of the road and crying in pain it is not my place to laugh at him or feel any kind of joy or satisfaction in him being hurt in a manner that I had been. Or telling a person they should not mourn because you have had more to mourn for. I admit that I am not perfect either and there are many times when I do feel and act in such a way, but I am trying to change. I would ask that you attempt to better yourself a bit as well. No one becomes perfect in a day, but no one gets better without trying to.
That and I find it sad that people would say,"well this has happened to us because we have gotten into an unjustified war." Fact of the matter is that be a conflict justified or not, and in reality it is all a rationlization to kill, there will be people who "fight" back. I would doubt, but of course I don't 100% know, that the bombers did this because the UN didn't vote on the issue, or because there were no mass caches of WMDs found in Iraq.
That and on a much brighter note Pixe, my love , is completely fine. I have to admit , even though it wasn't logical, I was honestly frightened and worried to the point of shaking when I first thought about it. I have the kind of imagination and personal experience to understand what things like that look like, and to think of her in a situation like that is unbearable. I truely mourn for the people as I am sure that someone in London etc. who had the same fear as mine did not get to be relieved, did not get to start worrying. Instead now they are entering a time of mourning. I personally feel we should pray for these people, and if not religious at least give them a considerate thought. It is easy to deal in death with numbers and statistics. What is truely different between 100 and 200 wounded etc. Does it become an evil act if it breaks a thousand etc. Should we not mourn if but one person is murdered, if but one be wounded. Remember that for every one person who dies there are dozens who cared for them who are brought into sadness.
Posts: 1753 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
I would like to take a minute to compare two things to everyone
on one hand a scene from the movie "War of the Worlds" (if you haven't seen it yet I suppose this is a bit of a mini-spoiler)
the scene in which a crowd is rabid and practically tears a family to shreds because they want a van (those who've seen it will relate)
on the other hand this little argument that took place through this thread
I'm not one to point fingers I'm not condeming anyone
but doesn't it strike any of you as funny that in a moment of disaster we would rather wind ourselves so tight that the fewest misinterpreted words send us flying off the handle than to worry about the things which matter if someone says something that doesn't sit well
you still have the right as a human to ignore it
I'm not one to take sides
an event like this makes us quick with our words sometimes not thinking through the consequences unless you can be certain you're words will be taken in the best possible manner intended then maybe you shouldn't say them
and
if someone has offered an apology don't retreat to the mind set of a five year old and egg them on to get another reaction
if I've pissed anyone off with this post then by all means rip me a new one
Posts: 83 | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
I have a lot to say right now but I just can't bring myself to rail against a Londoner right now.
The invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq were both completely justified under international law. To say otherwise and imply that you brought this on yourselves is to justify the actions taken against London today. Firebird, you should read Lewis's essay "On the Dangers of National Repentance."
And I'm going to leave it at that... I feel inappropriate enough as it is.
Posts: 3846 | Registered: Apr 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
I haven't read the whole thing, but nothing could be more disturbing to me than an attack on public transportation, especially subways. It's one of my worse fears.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Don't feel inappropriate ... isn't the point of a forum to share different views? Isn't the root problem of today that we resort to violence rather than finding a way to share our views respectfully? Isn't our duty to try to find another way?
We're all entitled to our opinion ... I'm just trying to express mine. This is my city ... I'm entitled to show my grief as I see fit.
I'd rather hear your argument than an attack on mine. I'd rather we build a common understanding. I have read Lewis's essay, I don't rember the details, I do remember agreeing with part of the analysis but disagreeing with the conclusion.
I'm not saying we deserve the acts of today ... I am saying our actions have contributed to it happening. Life does not exist in a vacuum, are actions are interrelated. We have a choice between retaliation or building a common understanding and working towards a common goal. I would rather work towards the later and see less of the former.
It doesn't matter which of our actions have been antagonistic. It only matters that they were and that we should redress our behaviour to avoid it in the future.
We learn from history what we have not learned from history.
Posts: 571 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged |
quote: 'm not saying we deserve the acts of today ... I am saying our actions have contributed to it happening. Life does not exist in a vacuum, are actions are interrelated. We have a choice between retaliation or building a common understanding and working towards a common goal. I would rather work towards the later and see less of the former.
This is exactly how I felt after 9/1i
Posts: 1015 | Registered: Aug 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Do they know that the people involved are members of al Queda? That seems to be the conclusion that people have jumped to, but, other than a claim on a website, is there anything tying them to it? I remember after both the Oklahoma City bombing and the Atlanta Olympics bombing, the immediate assumption that it was Islamic terrorist turned out to not only be false but also hindered the investigation. There are plenty of people who would like to take a shot at the G8 or have a beef with England and her allies. I'm not sure that it's necessarily al Queda that carried this out, although I haven't seen the recent news on it.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
| IP: Logged |
quote:I remember after both the Oklahoma City bombing
I was going to post about this. Does anyone remember people jumping to the conclusion after OC that it was Islamic terrorists? I heard about it 20 minutes or so after it happened, and it was immediately linked to the anniversary of Waco with the stated possibility that it was a surviving Branch Davidian or another internal militia who was responsible. There was a list of all the federal operations that had been run out of that building that ticked off the militia types.
In the coverage I saw, they were always the front-runner for being responsible.
posted
When Oklahoma City happenned I was 7 so I don't remember it directly, but there was an article I read recently about the hours before and after the attack. One thing I remember about the article is that Islamic terrorism was the first conclusion. However, somebody realized that if it was international terrorism, the target and the date were odd.
Another thing I remember from that article was that Tim McVeigh's first thought was "Why didn't it all come down?" That guy was sick.
posted
My wife had two cousins in the second tower that was hit on 9/11. They were evacuating even though the 'all clear - return to your offices' announcement had been given when that second airliner struck.
They said it shook the whole building. They could hear its structure creek and moan as they made their way out.
When they finally made it to the streets below, the building collapsed and they were both knocked unconscious by the falling debris. They never met their rescuers.
My wife's family back east spent three heart wrenching days looking through every hospital they could find. My wife was a mess during all of this, but we were some of the lucky ones in the end, because they both made it out with whole (but badly injured) bodies.
To this day, neither woman will go back in a high-rise.
The sad thing is how ineffective terrorist attacks are. They don't inspire fear for more than a moment or so, then the nation under siege bands together and becomes even stronger than before. I guess these idiots have never heard of 'Pearl Harbor' or 'The Blitz.'
My heart and prayers are with the people of London tonight. Stay strong for each other.
Posts: 339 | Registered: Mar 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
The thing is, if the terrorists had timed this a couple of weeks before the last elections (as was done in Spain) I could see the Labour government losing and Britain pulling out of Iraq.
Posts: 3564 | Registered: Sep 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
Dag, I do remember people jumping to the conclusion that the Oklamhoma City bombing was committed by Muslims. And being completely shocked when it turned out not to be true.
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
Dana, were they officials or part of the general public? I do remember explaining to a few friends that it was likely internal.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
Printer-friendly view of this topic
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
HS, this is hardly the behavior of רחמנים, בישנים, וגומלי חסדים! Grow up.![[Cry]](graemlins/cry.gif)
