posted
The first study he cites didn't focus on Palestinian terrorists, they're just focused on because they have a high concentration of suicide bombers, an area of particular interest for him.
However, I think you'll find it generally holds. Look at many revolutionary movements -- educated middle class citizens, often students, tend to be responsible. Look at the examples of terrorists that are held before us -- the leadership of Al Quaida that we've captured has been highly educated across the board, as far as I've noticed; while the membership could certainly be different, I haven't seen any particular evidence in that direction.
I'm not saying all terrorists are educated or from a decently well off background, but I don't nearly see this link between poverty and terrorism you're a proponent of, and I don't see you providing any data that suggests it in the face of multiple studies which refute it, one in the general case and several in a specific case.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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quote:Even in Europe the Islamic demographic threatens to overwhelm constitutional government where military action has failed. If you do not believe this is a deliberate policy you should read the words of Arafat on the subject of the 'Duty to Breed.'
Yea, and won't they be peeved when they find out the Jews are already working on taking over all of Europe?
Jeez, we should act now to eliminate all the Muslims and the Jews from Europe before it's too late.
Posts: 3564 | Registered: Sep 2001
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posted
I'm here. I was away in the Lake District when it all happened and I had no internet access and no one's phone numbers. I've just got back. My sister and the rest of my family are safe, thank God. Thank you all for your prayers, emails and good wishes.
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quote:Even in Europe the Islamic demographic threatens to overwhelm constitutional government where military action has failed. If you do not believe this is a deliberate policy you should read the words of Arafat on the subject of the 'Duty to Breed.'
"Yea, and won't they be peeved when they find out the Jews are already working on taking over all of Europe? Jeez, we should act now to eliminate all the Muslims and the Jews from Europe before it's too late."
I thought it was the Anglo-Saxons who were trying to take over Europe. Come to think of it... ...the Celts can't be trusted either, what with all the McDonald's overrunning the best tourist traps.
posted
Alright, on doing some research into the poverty/terrorism link, I've found mixed results.
Most studies I see from searching only link the number of actual terrorist attacks in a country to that nation's level of poverty. I think a better indicator would be to person by person try and identify the root and poverty level of each individual person in a terrorist organization, which is obviously going to be very hard, if not impossible.
Some specific instances that link poverty to terrorism have come acrossed me though:
quote: Recent media coverage of Abdullhal al Muhajir, the “dirty bomb” suspect, illustrates the link between poverty and terrorism. Many terrorists have a history of violence and criminal activity like Muhajir, and are often lured by terrorist leaders scouring poor neighborhoods for new recruits. Terrorist leaders may capitalize on these individuals’ despair and feelings of lost hope by giving them a sense of false power. This increases the probability that scores of vulnerable American neighborhoods will be kept under siege.
Even the outgoing President of the World Bank thinks there is a link:
quote: If we want stability on our planet, we must fight to end poverty. Since the time of the Bretton Woods Conference, through the Pearson Commission, the Brandt Commission, and the Brundtland Commission, through to statements of our leaders at the 2000 Millennium Assembly - and today - all confirm that the eradication of poverty is central to stability and peace.” — Outgoing World Bank president James D. Wolfensohn, 10/3/04
From what I've read, there seems to be grudging consensus that ending poverty in countries would eliminate safe havens for terrorists, limit areas where they could have training camps, eliminate recruiting grounds, and would make these nations more stable, and eliminate the weapons trade that flows through many African nations, proliferating illegal arms sales to insurgent fighters throughout the world.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
The World Bank president isn't talking about terrorists being poor, he's talking about general conflict being aided by the presence of poverty -- there's certainly plenty of non-terrorist violence occuring because of poverty, and I'm not even denying that the presence of poverty can lead to terrorism, just that there's a correlation between terrorists and poor people.
The first link is anecdotal evidence at best.
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posted
Dagonee, my genuine apologies for the misattribution.
Never-the-less, i wish you were less of a whiner. Nobody has an ulterior motive in criticizing you. My mistake was an honest one, and i stand by what i said, even if it doesn't apply to you. So, kindly shove off.
Regarding a comment i believe FG made, disengagement is the wrong strategy. While i doubt you'll have much success discussing anything with Al Qaeda, not communicating is the best way to let someone else slander you without having a method to win the war of ideas. So far the bush administration has failed abyssmally in it's attempts to disengage. It didn't work with Iran, didn't work with North Korea, and it's not going to work in Iraq (with respect to the locally-grown insurgency there).
Communication is the key, i'd say the only key, to defeating the ridiculous characatures that extremists paint of others, and fuel the hatred they feed upon. (i mean, this is the point of politics isn't it? Christian extremists have tried the whole abortion clinic bombing thing, and have failed, what's the new modus operandi? Stacking the courts with activists, and launching smear campaigns against anyone who disagrees with them.)
Posts: 4482 | Registered: May 2000
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quote:Originally posted by Exploding Monkey: Wasn't it Napoleon that said:
"The only time Italy has ended up on the same side it started on is when it switched sides twice during the same war."
I very much doubt it, considering there wasn't a Kingdom of Italy in Nappy's time. Sounds more like Churchill. Also, it's not true; in their war with Ethiopia, they were on their own side throughout. Granted, they lost rather badly against tribesmen with spears, but they didn't actually switch sides.
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Dagonee, my genuine apologies for the misattribution.
Never-the-less, i wish you were less of a whiner. Nobody has an ulterior motive in criticizing you. My mistake was an honest one, and i stand by what i said, even if it doesn't apply to you. So, kindly shove off.
posted
I'm not saying that poverty CAUSES terrorism. Not by itself, it certainly doesn't. But it certainly makes it easier to keep it going.
Dropping bombs isn't solving the problem, it's making it worse. Fighting poverty will produce real results, and will gain us new allies and partners in the war.
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posted
The statements I'm arguing against are the ones about terrorists being more likely to be poor people.
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posted
If I had the time to sort through your link I'd try and find something wrong with it, but there's just too many links and too much information there to try. So, to a point, I'll concede that piece of the argument, about the personal economies of the terrorists. But my greater point about fighting poverty as being more effective than a man to man war on terrorists in fighting the war on terrorism still stands I believe.
It'd be nice to see a study that actually give information on large numbers of terrorists from all different geographic locations, the middle east, palestine, Africa, Indonesia, and what their economic status is at.
I couldn't find that information in your link, or in my own search, to be honest. But there is much more to the argument than just recruiting.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
What I linked to cited several studies on the topic, and mentioned their conclusions.
And I never said they looked at all geographic locations, I said that one of the studies didn't just look at Palestine. In response to your complaint which seemed to allege that everything I referred to cited the characteristics of Palestinian terrorists.
Note that I'm not saying my position is hard and fast true, I'm saying that every bit of evidence I've seen, some of which I've linked to references to, supports terrorists not being easily socioeconomically classifiable, and if anything tending towards middle class, and that I've never seen any information in support of your view (which you pretty much stated as fact), and noted you haven't provided any.
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posted
Maybe sometime in the future, we'll hear Ted chiming in about how liberals are generally more polite than conservatives Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
I suppose I'll have to concede that particular point then. I don't have the time to research anything that would back up my claim, and I certainly don't have the time to wade through the several dozen studies you linked to. I'll get back to you in a couple weeks.
And until then, I'll leave terrorist's individual socioeconomic status out of my argument.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
?! I linked to the full text of one article that references maybe a dozen studies, of which three or four are directly relevant.
Oh, I see, all the other links on the article page; yeah, didn't even look at those, its all about the full text pdf that's linked at the top.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
No,(to Genocide) but they need to act now to make sure that the Muslim/Germans, and Muslim/French and so on are more Westernized and integrated then they are at this point. There is much between the death of the body and the death of allegiance to a central faith.
That is if they care who's values their laws reflect. I am sure we would raise hell if MAMBLA got a majority or looked like they might.
The Japanese had plans of revenging themselves on the US with their super economy and efficiency, plans that have turned into a pleasant friendship simply because their kids kids are as self indulgent and uninterested in vengeance and cultural identity as ours.
posted
Oh, good to know you've decided against genocide. It's a bit of a hot button these days, maybe in the future it could work out though.
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posted
By the way, have I mentioned that I think you're an insane racist? Just thought I'd drop it in.
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posted
My bad. I didn't realize that top link was the link to the article you were quoting from Fugu. I thought you pulled it from ONE of the many articles in the link. I'm reading the article now.
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posted
Well, first off, there ARE militant Christian groups in Africa. Which they probably should have covered instead of making Christianity look pleasant compared to Islamic militancy.
None of the sources used to make the article involved studies of terrorists and insurgents in the Iraq War, which even the President contents is the front line war on terror. Regardless, none of the studies take into account anything from beyond 2003, when the insurgency in Iraq really took hold.
The study itself admits that:
quote: People with strong ties are very unlikely to convert – included those who are married with children, home-owners, people well-established in their jobs, occupations, and neighborhood.
I think that contradicts the claim that poverty has little or nothing to do with terrorism. The more people in established jobs will lower the pool of potential good recruits for terrorism.
The majority of the references in this article are in fact to Israel/Palestine type terrorism, and suicide bombers. I saw little or no reference to Africa. The majority of the article focuses on cult mentality, which I agree does heavily relate to terrorism and terrorist organizations, but I think there is much lacking.
Overall, I'll agree with you that the majority of terrorists are probably not poor. But I think much of your article helps to prove my point that ending poverty would be a major blow to the terrorist effort.
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posted
Its not being poor that leads to lack of ties in most of the cases they looked at, its being young.
And its not attempting to be an absolutely encompassing article, its a brief look at an interesting theoretical notion which I believe he is working on doing a more thorough treatment of.
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posted
Except that at the end of the article he says that that is changing. Recent suicide bombers have been older men, and even women, with families and children.
I would LOVE to see him write a larger, broader and more encompassing article on the subject.
Either way, after reading that, and not being able to come up with a comporable article of my own to defend my earlier assertion, I have to admit that on that point, you're probably right and I'm wrong.
But I don't think it really weakens my larger argument on fighting poverty.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: Maybe sometime in the future, we'll hear Ted chiming in about how liberals are generally more polite than conservatives
Jeff, that was a cheap shot. Posts: 5771 | Registered: Nov 2000
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posted
No, I am improbable and proud of it, you have had Statistics née? You have studied Psychology?
You know that insanity is merely defined as deviation from the norm? Standard deviations are mathematical shifts in probability by specific units on the Normal Curve (bell curve)
Combine the two and my statement is an amusing reference to my being at a very high level of mental and physical performance, and therefor two deviations from the 'norm' and reasonably classifiable as 'insane' née? but my modesty level was too high to allow me to be less then deprecating about it.
I do not mind explaining it to you though, I am not the best teacher but we all do the tasks we are handed.
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