quote:Originally posted by Armoth: I actually dated a girl whose dad is in the military. They're a pretty big gun family.
This is a frum girl? That's pretty uncommon.
I might actually know a guy for her. Although if she's the right age for you (you're early 20s, neh?), she's probably too young for him . . .
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I think video games are fun to play for a while, but I have a hard time justifying the time they eat up.
However, I read for hours a week. I guess that's my time-eater. I don't consider it wasted time. So. Luckily my wife likes to read, too. We are content of an evening to read in bed together, and neither of us feels like our needs aren't being met.
I read the entire LOTR to her over the first months of our marriage. We took the book camping, hiking, and floating in a raft on a lake. We read it at home as well. That's still among our favorite memories.
On the other hand, I tried reading one of my dates a short story I had written. That didn't go over well. It proved how inept I was.
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quote:Originally posted by Noemon: I wasn't really looking for a serious relationship when we met, but I knew that I wasn't really interested in a serious relationship, period with someone who wasn't a SF reader.
Don't automatically count people out. It had never occurred to me to read sci-fi before I married my husband. I started because I had read all my books and needed something new, and that's all he had. Now I love it. (Or some of it. Some of it is still too boys-and-robots. But OSC is great for us both.)
So, you never know.
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Not in the South. Even here in Richmond, many of my frum momma friends are proficient with small firearms. There are some frum shuls in Georgia where the sisterhoods have have fun shoot fundraisers.
I don't like video games, but they would never be a "deal-breaker" with me unless the guy was completely obsessive and had no other interests. People with one all-encompassing interest that is all they can think or talk about tend to be unappealing to me in general. It's great to be passionate about something, but it's important to recognize that not everyone will share your enthusiasm.
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All proof that my particular preferences are not meant to the gold standard of judgement for all men, but just what I like. I think a guy who loves reading as his primary leisure pasttime is attractive. I think a guy who plays video games as his primary leisure pasttime is not.
But, like I said, take it for what it is worth. What do I know? Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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katharina, it seems odd that you earlier explained the video game thing in terms of social adeptness, but don't apply the same standard to reading. At least, in my experience, people who read a lot for fun don't overlap much with people who are socially adept. Perhaps the skew of my personal experience is just different from yours, though.
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quote:Originally posted by Armoth: I actually dated a girl whose dad is in the military. They're a pretty big gun family.
This is a frum girl? That's pretty uncommon.
I might actually know a guy for her. Although if she's the right age for you (you're early 20s, neh?), she's probably too young for him . . .
Yeah, she's a frum girl. Her dad is a chaplin (Rabbi) in the U.S. military. Actually, I think he's a colonel. She said something about him being the highest ranking Jew in the U.S. military, which is funny...
She's actually really great. She's 23ish i think. Her family moved around a lot so she is very open minded while retaining a halachic and mindset.
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quote:Originally posted by katharina: I suspect there is part of me that doesn't consider skill at video games to be anything to be admired. It isn't real, and it isn't transferable. It isn't like getting good at a craft or an art or sport. It isn't visceral, and it isn't risky. That's all fine for a diversion, but as far as what I find attractive in men, I like talented, adept, clever, and present* men who make me feel comfortable around them, and none of those things seem to go along with an obsession with video games.
*By "present," I mean aware of the world around them, both immediately and globally, possessing an opinion on it, and taking action about it.
I don't at all dispute your desire for a date that is "present" (although I enjoy playing video games when I have time, mainly RPGs and Madden, it's not something I would do on a first date with someone), but there are some who would argue that video games aren't "real" or provide "transferable" skill. CNBC Link:
quote: EA commissioned the University of Oregon's Warsaw Sports Marketing Center to survey average NFL fans versus those that played "Madden."
The survey revealed that those who played "Madden" were 60 percent more knowledgeable about the game than those who just classified themselves as non-gaming fans of the league.
"This proves that our game is doing a tremendous service to the real sports," Peter Moore, president of EA Sports, told me. "Playing the game creates a better educated and more involved fan. And that means that all the people say gamers are wasting time while playing games on the couch are wrong. We've suspected it for years, but this proves that playing "Madden" helps create a deeper knowledge of the game that just watching on television."
posted
All this is based completely on personal experience.
The video game guys were 100% bad experiences. The bookworms were much more varied, so a love of reading doesn't seem like as precise an indicator. Also, depending on what they love reading, it can often make them much more interesting, and that's a very good thing. I have yet to encounter a video game that makes someone more interesting.
ETA: I also prefer guys who like playing sports as opposed to those who like watching sports (same principle), so being better at watching sports is not actually a plus for me.
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quote:Originally posted by Noemon: I wasn't really looking for a serious relationship when we met, but I knew that I wasn't really interested in a serious relationship, period with someone who wasn't a SF reader.
Don't automatically count people out.
Oh, I was probably overstating my committment to finding a fellow SF geek. I was open to casual dating when I met my girlfriend, and certainly went out with people in that context who weren't into SF at all. I had it in my head that my next serious relationship would be with a SF reader, but if things had quickened with somebody who wasn't, it isn't like I'd have walked away from it.
My profile on the dating site I was using was pretty specifically designed to filter out people who were turned off by my particular flavor of geekiness, which probably selected for people who would be open to SF, though.
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I must say that transferring your skill at a sports game to knowing facts about the sport in question does not strike me as what katharina was talking about. A better example would be "America's Army", which presumably teaches prospective soldiers something. Also, if you ever need a ruthless general for a soul-destroying war ending in rule over a devastated, but united planet, any HoI player is your man. (Well, some of them are your woman. But not very many.)
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quote:Originally posted by katharina: I also prefer guys who like playing sports as opposed to those who like watching sports (same principle), so being better at watching sports is not actually a plus for me.
QFT
Honestly, how is being better at watching sports a positive in any way at all??
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And I do both games and read... I'm going to die alone.
Seriously though, regardless of what your hobby is, all that's required is being capable balancing your leisure time with your family, professional, and other time constraints. Recognize that leisure is at the bottom of the totem pole, and act accordingly.
Right now, computer games would be the peak occupier of my hobby times (well over three hours a week). The reason for my current balance is that I'm suffering from some fairly severe constraints on my other hobbies by living in an apartment (building furniture, model rockets, model airplanes). I'd argue that I'm not a less interesting or datable person because of this. And, in truth, I'm much more likely to bore with an architecture related discussion or scare someone with a regional design, semi-political rant than I am to try and regale a date with anything remotely related to video games.
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Godric, I personally don't think knowing alot about football is going to be very much of a skill either.
Other than that i think the general video games = social awkwardness is a fair thing to say. I play probably fourteen hours of video games a week. I also read about that much, although that changes more based on what im reading. I would also venture to say that i am a sociable person.
I would have to say that for me, a dislike of video games would be a deal breaker for me. I don't care that my girlfriend prefers not to play them, but disliking the fact that i play them wouldn't work out to well. I think that video games are an infinitly better use of time than watching television(not including science, history, news).
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AW, I'm pretty sure I'm going to die alone as well, if that helps at all. Probably because the athletic, well-read, socially-adept, proactive, homey, comfy, Mormon man I would like either doesn't exist, isn't looking for a geeky girl like me, is already married, or only becomes that after being married a while.
I suspect it is the last of those, actually.
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quote:I think that video games are an infinitly better use of time than watching television(not including science, history, news).
I wouldn't say infinitely, and I'm not sure even about better, but they're definitely no worse than TV IMO.
My former husband used to rail and rail on my children for playing NES in the afternoon when he was getting home from work, but didn't have any problem at all with them watching mindless syndicated sitcoms instead. <shudder> Now I need to go look at lolcats or something until I get that memory out of my head.
quote:Originally posted by Armoth: Her dad is a chaplin (Rabbi) in the U.S. military. Actually, I think he's a colonel. She said something about him being the highest ranking Jew in the U.S. military, which is funny...
Indeed.
The guy in question is a couple years older than me, so probably 36 or so. As I said, probably too much age difference.
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quote:Originally posted by King of Men: I must say that transferring your skill at a sports game to knowing facts about the sport in question does not strike me as what katharina was talking about.
Well, I assume a greater knowledge of football would be beneficial to not just fans, but certainly players, coaches of all levels, sports writers, referees, bookies (heh...), etc.
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Well infinity might be a tad high, but when you watch a group of people sit around and play videdo games for an hour compared to watching something like the real world. There is going to be a major difference between how those two groups act. I personally believe that i react better and think quicker largly due to video games.
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How many video games translate into useful real life skills? Madden makes you more knowledgeable about football, which is great if you're apt to watch football or go to games. Perhaps your knowledge could even make you money in a career as a sports writer.
Most first-person shooters train you for situations that hopefully you will never find yourself in, and if you did, you wouldn't get there because you'd been playing video games. Would you really want to be good at everything you do in Grand Theft Auto? And there's a whole slew of games that have no bearing on reality whatsoever.
I like the idea of the Wii because you actually get to do some movement, but it's still kind of a strange compromise between real life and video gaming. Actually playing the Wii is less like real life and more like a video game. Maybe that will change as more games are developed.
Guitar Hero lets you get to know the guitar part of the songs, I suppose, but certainly doesn't get you any better at playing guitar. I would think that it gives you some bad habits. I've heard that many really good guitar players are terrible at Guitar Hero.
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quote:And there's a whole slew of games that have no bearing on reality whatsoever.
While this is true, there's also any number of games that require general problem-solving, application of learned skills to new problems, resource management, logic, geometric visualisation, quick reactions, and basic math. But in any case I must say this is rather missing the point. Just how many leisure activities would remain if we demanded that they all teach a "useful real-life skill"? The whole point of leisure activities is that they are not real life; if we wanted real life, we could work overtime and earn some more money.
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If you're spending too much time playing video games, as with any leisure activity, then you're not giving yourself enough time to apply whatever skills you are learning through your leisure activity on something that will actually advance your position in life. All those skills are being fed back into the leisure activity instead. In other words, you are developing better reflexes so you can get better at playing more games. You are learning how to solve logic problems so that you can solve more difficult ones at higher levels of the game. In the end, what have you accomplished?
I think what's debatable is how much of any activity makes it something that starts to detract from a healthy, well-rounded lifestyle.
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Fine, but then you're just making the good old point that your life should not be completely devoted to leisure activities. Well, duh. This is both boringly obvious and not particular to computer games.
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While in theory any leisure activity could take over someone's life, I just happened to have stumbled a lot more socially-inept gamers than other kind of guy with a hobby. From my completely unscientific observations, video games either attract or create a particularly egregious specimen.
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There's some transferrence of skill from FPS to, say, paintball. But tranferrence form one frivolous hobby to another really doesn't help.
----
I totally see where Kat is coming from. Not about video games in particular, but in general. She didn't say that playing video games is a deal-breaker for her, or that she couldn't be happy with someone who does. She said that it's a strike against them. We all have traits for which we unjustifiably hold it against them.
It's unjustifiable, but as Kat said, it doesn't need to be justified. You can't argue against personal taste.
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quote: Just how many leisure activities would remain if we demanded that they all teach a "useful real-life skill"? The whole point of leisure activities is that they are not real life; if we wanted real life, we could work overtime and earn some more money.
Personally, the leisure activities that I've found most satisfying were ones that did teach a real-life skill.
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If my former girlfriend had spent a lot of her time reading, say, Charles Dickens, then I would have considered her justified in scorning video games. But to my knowledge she read no books while I was dating her, and she would have spoken to me in a similar tone of voice if I had told her, say, that I spent much of the day reading Plato's Phaedrus (which I recently did, because I had seen several references to it in other articles).
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It's so strange to me to hear so many people say that they've experienced a higher likelihood of social ineptitude (ineptness?) in gamers. I suppose that my experience is that most of my friends are gamers, many of them obsessively so. There seems to be a normal distribution of socially adept and inept people in that group. I guess my only point is that I haven't had that experience at all.
However, one experience I have had that sort of echoes Kat's sentiments is the complete blowing-off of the significant other in question. Even the very friendly, outgoing gamers I know tend to have fairly unsatisfied wives who complain that their husbands are "always playing games". (These are the same women at our get-togethers who seem to think I'd rather talk to them about what Brangelina is up to than kick someone's butt at Super Puyo Puyo.)
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Since when do we grade leisure activities by their correlation to other skills?
Reading, knitting, bowling, crosswords, painting, listening to music, golfing, scrapbooking, and bird watching don't make you a better dancer, public speaker, dentist, driver, or accountant. So what?
I think the stigma associated with video games is silly, and no more true or helpful than any other stereotype. Many of my friends and I all play video games more than average, and we're all socially adept, with a variety of interests and hobbies.
I would suggest that the causation is in the other direction. People with less social aptitude will feel more comfortable engaged in activities with less personal interaction, which includes video games. That doesn't mean that many or most video game aficionados are socially inept.
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I've dated several people who are avid gamers. One of them would game until two in the morning in the bedroom where we both slept even if he and I both had to be up early the next day. Any time I expressed frustration about this, it would make him angry. In fact, anything I said to him while he was gaming made him angry.
By contrast my current boyfriend plays video games at least as much, but when he's gaming and I talk to him, he answers me. Often, he'll take off his headphones and turn towards me. Occasionally, he'll tell me that he's in the middle of an intense scene and we can talk in a minute or two. Reliably, a few minutes later, he'll ask me what I had wanted to say.
In my opinion, it's not about the video games, it's about the specific gamer.
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So, am I the only one who is waiting for this conversation to turn the corner to "Most people who belong to online communities aren't the most socially adept people in real life"?
Followed quickly by its cousin, the spectacularly antagonistic "How many people spend more than three hours a week on Hatrack I wonder"?
I suppose their half-brother "How much time before texting and instant messaging becomes worrisome" would probably make an appearance as well before long.
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quote:Since when do we grade leisure activities by their correlation to other skills?
Reading, knitting, bowling, crosswords, painting, listening to music, golfing, scrapbooking, and bird watching don't make you a better dancer, public speaker, dentist, driver, or accountant. So what?
Reading, knitting, and scrapbooking all have benefits that extend beyond the enjoyment of the activity in ways that video games do not.
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dean: Right. My husband is a good example of that. He loves video games and can become engrossed in them for hours. He's not socially adept by any stretch of the imagination, but he is considerate . That means he pays attention when I'm talking to him, or tries to game when I'm similarly entrenched in something, like writing. He also invites me to play/watch him play games that I'm interested in, and frequently chooses games he thinks I would like over ones he knows I wouldn't, all other things being equal, so that I can be involved.
But is he socially awkward? You betcha.
MPH: While I would never put reading on the same level as gaming, I would say that it's possible to read only books that are not edifying in any sense of the word, and that video games are not inherently valueless in that respect. I would say it depends on the game.
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: Reading, knitting, and scrapbooking all have benefits that extend beyond the enjoyment of the activity in ways that video games do not.
Knitting maybe, but I can just buy a scarf. Reading and scrapbooking don't seem to apply though. I can look fondly through a folder of video game pictures and discuss the story in my latest game with friends.
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quote:Originally posted by Omega M.: If my former girlfriend had spent a lot of her time reading, say, Charles Dickens, then I would have considered her justified in scorning video games.
Why?
quote:Reading, knitting, and scrapbooking all have benefits that extend beyond the enjoyment of the activity in ways that video games do not.
Indeed? Just how many amateur scrapbooks does the world really need? How important is it that we have many people well versed in the latest Harlequin novel? And how many video games do you play, anyway, to give you such great competence in judging their benefits?
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That's where it is very personal. I really like introverts, but I like socially-adept introverts. Not necessarily with big crowds, but one-on-one, I just can't handle being around someone socially awkward. I'm too socially awkward myself for me to be happy under those conditions. One of us at least needs to know what we are doing and be comfortable with it.
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quote:Originally posted by Architraz Warden: So, am I the only one who is waiting for this conversation to turn the corner to "Most people who belong to online communities aren't the most socially adept people in real life"?
Followed quickly by its cousin, the spectacularly antagonistic "How many people spend more than three hours a week on Hatrack I wonder"?
I suppose their half-brother "How much time before texting and instant messaging becomes worrisome" would probably make an appearance as well before long.
Texting is evil. An hour a week is too much.
IMing is not horrible, but it does tend to be a huge time sucker. 5 hours a week max on average; occasional weeks of 10-15 hours are acceptable.
Spending time on online fora enhances every aspect of your life and should be promoted over all other considerations. Only if you are spending in excess of 50 hours a week on fora should you be concerned.
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Sure. That's why it's a hobby instead of a part time job.
quote: Reading and scrapbooking don't seem to apply though.
I don't know about you, but I've learned a lot from reading. Even if it's nothing but an increased vocabulary.
And scrapbooking has external value in as much as you believe that there's value in chronicling your life or preserving memories.
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Heck, my husband learned how to keep a rhythm from "Donkey Konga". As the one who has to listen to him drum on the table with his pencil, I would say that that is very beneficial.
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quote:Even if it's nothing but an increased vocabulary.
Which is good because...?
quote:And scrapbooking has external value in as much as you believe that there's value in chronicling your life or preserving memories.
Which is valuable because...?
This is an infinite loop: People are saying "Activity X is better than Y because it has better by-products", without even attempting to establish the value of the by-products. Why not cut out the middleman?
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quote:Originally posted by PSI Teleport: Heck, my husband learned how to keep a rhythm from "Donkey Konga". As the one who has to listen to him drum on the table with his pencil, I would say that that is very beneficial.
quote:This is an infinite loop: People are saying "Activity X is better than Y because it has better by-products", without even attempting to establish the value of the by-products.
I never said that activities that have external benefits are better than other activities. I just said that I tend find them more fulfilling than ones that don't.
And you can't argue with personal taste.
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This the last thing I would admit to my bosses, but I learned more about delegation and trust playing a video game with 10-15 other people than I did in my MBA program.
I thought about this as logically as I could... I think it came down to work and the game being similar because in general people wanted to be involved, while the people I was grouped with in class people generally wanted to be anywhere else.
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quote:Originally posted by rivka: Texting is evil. An hour a week is too much.
My one sister-in-law is CRRRAZY... Practically every time I see her she's got her nose buried in her cell phone texting away. If we go out to eat, she'll invariably get up halfway through the meal (or sooner) and spend the rest of the meal outside texting.
I find that, if not evil, at least rude.
But at the same time, she's not someone I'd consider to be an introvert - somewhat immature and a bit of a drama queen, but not an introvert. Quite the opposite, in fact. When she's paying attention to those actually around her she's very sociable.
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Actually, when she has her nose buried in her cell phone she's being sociable. Or at least social. Just not with you.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote:Originally posted by PSI Teleport: dean: Right. My husband is a good example of that. He loves video games and can become engrossed in them for hours. He's not social adept by any stretch of the imagination, but he is considerate . That means he pays attention when I'm talking to him, or tries to game when I'm similarly entrenched in something, like writing. He also invites me to play/watch him play games that I'm interested in, and frequently chooses games he thinks I would like over ones he knows I wouldn't, all other things being equal, so that I can be involved.
But is he socially awkward? You betcha.
MPH: While I would never put reading on the same level as gaming, I would say that it's possible to read only books that are not edifying in any sense of the word, and that video games are not inherently valueless in that respect. I would say it depends on the game.
Though I would characterize both boyfriends as not being particularly socially awkward. Both had worked as retail managers in small stores (just as I have), both have close long-term friends (unlike me), both have about the same level of comfort in large groups. Oddly enough, I would say that the former is more active socially though neither of them ever seem to show much awkwardness in a social situation.
Posts: 1751 | Registered: Jun 1999
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This topic blew up quickly...sorry if I repeat something that's already been said.
I don't think it's fair to say that all women would be disinterested in video games. Also, some women who are not interested in video games may have no problems with you playing and/or talking about them. If it is something you are very interested in, I would say that at the least you would want that kind of girl. Of course, all relationships are based on give and take. It's never ok to be the guy who retreats into World of Warcraft for hours on end and neglects the relationship and even (when they come around) the kids. (I've talked to many fellow moms whose big gripe about video games is that their husbands won't get off their lazy a** and help with the kids.)
For my part, I'm not a gamer. We recently bought a Wii and I'm enjoying a lot of the rhythm games on that system -- Dance Dance Revolution, Guitar Hero...a few other less popular ones. I'm also using Wii Fit to exercise. It's a lot of fun but I wouldn't say I'm a video game girl. My husband has rented a few role playing games for the Wii and my eyes kind of glaze over. I have no problems with him playing them, though, and it makes me excited to see him excited about them.
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I didn't really learn reading untill my brother refused to tell me what was happening in final fantasy.
While i would never put down reading, it is entirely possible to get everything you want from books out of video games. It is not fair to say you learn nothing from video games but how to play them. My creativity, time management, problem solving, and social skills have all been helped from my time with video games.
I also believe that any of you trying to put a limit on any activity is plain silly.
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