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I like the kind of kid where they have interesting thoughts to share, but they can dress, go to the restroom, and occasionally feed themselves just fine.
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quote:how many of you have used consciously or not the 'I'm a parent and your not' (trump) card in conversations not directly about your children? Would you think it was wrong and either not do it, or later wish you hadn't, or do you feel it's a valid appeal?
I'm not sure how many times I've done it unconsciously. I think it is more a trait of people a certain age or personality type. I would very rarely contradict anyone in person. I also don't know if I've often been in the position of people criticizing my parenting. Believe it or not, I usually get comments on how well behaved they are. Well, except the youngest. I think if someone was going to comment, it might be that I baby the youngest, who is six, too much. And she's tall for her age. But a lot of our child management is steered by my husband. I would be a lot more permissive left to myself, or if I had a husband who didn't assume my motherly instincts should be more British.
I was sitting in church this week thinking how nice it is that they are older now. No one has to be fed or changed or taken out screaming or drawn pictures for, even. But I dreamt I had a new baby last night and I was so sad to wake up.
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Babies and toddlers are adorable. It's teenagers I'm afraid of. Big tall teenagers.
Also, I continue to be annoyed by pro-spanking folks, only in the sense that it seems kind of warped to me to hit a person out of love when hitting... hurts... Pain sucks. I can't stand pointless pain and I can't imagine doing that to, say, a tiny toddler grabbing something that I, as an adult, should have kept out of his or her reach.
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I don't think most pro-spankers believe that spanking is the way to handle a curious toddler, though.
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quote:Originally posted by PSI Teleport: I don't think most pro-spankers believe that spanking is the way to handle a curious toddler, though.
They kind of do.. especially extreme nutwits like Pearl who will show a child something than hit them. And the child is usually 4 months. It's a good thing that most people are not like that. But still, I hate that whole hitting thing so much. It really bugs me.
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quote:Originally posted by PSI Teleport: I don't think most pro-spankers believe that spanking is the way to handle a curious toddler, though.
I wish I believed this. Not that I've taken any polls, but it definitely does not coincide with my anecdotal evidence.
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quote:Originally posted by PSI Teleport: I don't think most pro-spankers believe that spanking is the way to handle a curious toddler, though.
In practice, most "pro-spankers" are just considered so not because of informed participation in a spanking-inclusive parenting theory. They spank their kids because they don't really have any other effective methods that let them feel they have a lot of control over their kids, or because they often just don't know what else to do, and/or because spanking elicits immediate compliance and makes them feel as though it is too effective not to use.
So you get a hell of a lot of parents who do indeed do that.
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Even among those who have thought it through there's a wide range in what you could call "pro-spanking." From those who think that kids will never learn respect if they're not spanked so you need to look for reasons to spank them (those would be the ones that Syn is constantly railing against) to those who'd rather not spank but think it's acceptable in some very specific cases.
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Samp, right. I consider a pro-spanker to be someone who believes in the effectiveness of spanking. A lot of parents seem to lash out and spank their kids thoughtlessly, but I'm not sure they've spent time developing an opinion on any kind of parenting method. I wouldn't consider them pro-spanking any more than I would consider someone who's never formed an opinion on abortion to be "pro-life" just because they never got one.
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quote:Originally posted by PSI Teleport: Samp, right. I consider a pro-spanker to be someone who believes in the effectiveness of spanking. A lot of parents seem to lash out and spank their kids thoughtlessly, but I'm not sure they've spent time developing an opinion on any kind of parenting method. I wouldn't consider them pro-spanking any more than I would consider someone who's never formed an opinion on abortion to be "pro-life" just because they never got one.
I don't think this is a good analogy because the parents in question, however unstudied or thoughtless, do use spanking as a strategy.
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In as far as reacting without planning to alter the behavior in any meaningful way can be called a strategy. Personally, I don't think it's enough to just stop a negative behavior. I think you have to teach the child a positive one to replace it with.
Unfortunately, I do find a great many people to be reactive and unwilling to plan ahead.
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If someone observed my children and/or my interaction with them, noticed something they percieved to be a problem, thought a lot about it and came up with an idea they thought would possibly help, and pulled me aside privately (at a time when I was relaxed and not busy), and non-judgementally said, "I noticed x was happening the other day. I am not criticising, but I had a thought. I don't know if you have tried y, but I thought it was worth mentioning. I apologize for butting in, I just wanted to say something in case I could help," I would probably have no problem with it. Especially if they then accepted whatever my answer was, even if it was, "I would never do that!" or "Thanks but no thanks" or "What you don't understand about the situation is z" or "we don't consider it to be a problem because..."
If a scientist, with as little bias as possible, published a repeatable, scientifically valid study on childrens' behavior, learning ability, etc., using methodology that was not flawed as far as people who know their ways around a study can tell, I would definitely also consider that if the study was made available to me, whether or not that scientist had children.
Someone who had worked with kids for many years on a close level and seen thousands of kids of differing personalities, etc.-- I'd probably consider their input. Similarly, someone who had been primary or full-time caregiver (like, a nanny) for a younger sibling, friend's child, niece or nephew, etc. on a daily basis for many years-- provided that they realize that not all children are the same (some parents don't realize that either) and that they really do have a different relationship than the child's acutal parents in most cases (there are exceptions, but generally.)
Other than that, I think childless people are free to have their opinions, and form their own child-rearing philosophies, and I'd generally appreciate it if they do not share them with me. There are exceptions of course. I treat those exceptions as they come.
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Conversely, I rarely accept parents' advice on children just because they have children. There are lots of parents who have miserable skills and tactics. That people in general turn out like they do (generally civilized) is more a testament to human resilience that the general skill level of parents.
Additionally, people general give advice that makes them comfortable with their own choices. So, parents' advice is usually more concerned with justifications their past than a concern about the kid in question's future.
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My sister in law are on opposite sides with regards to parenting styles. She is always giving me "advice" and has even sent me parenting books. Watching our two kids play together, I felt like my parenting methods were totally validated. However, our stated goals are quite different, so she probably felt that her methods were validated by watching my child.
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I am more likely to give credence to someone whose philosophpies resonate with mine than not, whether or not they have children. I almost never give unsolicited parenting advice, except as Avidreader noted, with potential food allergies. And I know no one who has ever taken that.
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quote:Originally posted by PSI Teleport: I don't think most pro-spankers believe that spanking is the way to handle a curious toddler, though.
Well, when "curious" means "let's go running into the street" or "what's this on the stove?", the immediate compliance and fear generated by spanking is actually a good thing.
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We don't spank, but I'm quite sure that if we did "immediate compliance" would not be the reaction we'd get.
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We don't in general spank, but my daughter did run into the street and got a spanking for it. I think the shock of that response from her daddy was pretty big. Since she had never had that happen before, she knew this street thing was a big deal. She does now stop at the edge of sidewalks and wait. Though that could be being older and that after the street incident, we were more vigilant regarding her level of freedom near streets.
My sister in law regularly spanks and pinches. They have better control over their son then me, but my daughter has more self control. In other words, step out of the room, mine is going to be good, hers is going to be crazy.
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When my son ran into the street, I grabbed him back and carried him inside like a sack of potatoes, which seemed to be quite enough for him to get the message.
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I have found with teaching, no style is going to work for every student and similarly no style is going to work for every teacher. Trying to copy someone else's style rarely works. You have to find a teaching style that works with your personality, your material and your natural abilities. I suspect that the same is true for parenting as well.
Its also been my observation that many people (particularly young parents and non-parents) overestimate the influence of parenting. There is only so much a parent can do. I have seen many kids screw up despite excellent parenting and some succeed despite truly horrible parents.
Parents need to forgive themselves for the mistakes they make and recognize that children are amazingly resilient. Likewise, as adults we all need to forgive our parents for the mistakes they made and accept responsibility for our own lives and choices.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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I think one of the really difficult things about parenting more than one child is the challenge of balancing the need to tailor your methods for the individual child's personality with "fairness". The methods that worked on the first child don't necessarily work with the second. Kids can respond very differently to punishment and praise and have very different needs. But that gets very complicated because syblings are often acutely aware of differences in they way they are treated. They have a really hard time understanding why you praise their brother for doing something they do all the time or why their sister doesn't get punished as severely as they do.
posted
" But that gets very complicated because syblings are often acutely aware of differences in they way they are treated. They have a really hard time understanding why you praise their brother for doing something they do all the time or why their sister doesn't get punished as severely as they do."
Solitary confinement helps SO much with this.
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quote:Originally posted by scifibum: " But that gets very complicated because syblings are often acutely aware of differences in they way they are treated. They have a really hard time understanding why you praise their brother for doing something they do all the time or why their sister doesn't get punished as severely as they do."
Solitary confinement helps SO much with this.
The funny thing is, I don't think we adults do that much better than children. I've been in plenty of conversations with adults complaining about how their parents treat them differently than their syblings. I've done it myself and even when I can rationally understand why my parents do the things they do and logically support their choices, I still sometimes feel slighted when they spend more time or money on one of my syblings than they do with me.
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Oh, I'm completely aware that I've been posting my thoughts on parenting and not on the question Hobbes posed. I'm a non-parent, I hope my comments are not disregarded for that reason alone.
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quote:Originally posted by scifibum: Solitary confinement helps SO much with this.
I'm not sure to what extent this was intended as a joke. I'm fairly confident that it does really help to reward and punish each child privately rather than in front of the others -- but that is only possible to a fairly limited extent.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted
Here is some unsolicited but freely given advice from someone who is not a parent:
Please stop teaching your children to run out into traffic. I cannot tell you how often I see parents (or at least adults with children in tow) dash out in front of cars in the middle of the block. Usually the drivers slow down or stop but setting the example for their kids can't be a good thing.
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quote:Originally posted by scifibum: Solitary confinement helps SO much with this.
I'm not sure to what extent this was intended as a joke. I'm fairly confident that it does really help to reward and punish each child privately rather than in front of the others -- but that is only possible to a fairly limited extent.
It was all joke, although I suppose you've identified something that might work for some people at some times.
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When I was growing up, my mother was the spanker. I can't remember one time my father spanked me, but his method of parenting was just as effective.
I knew if I did something wrong, I would get a spank on the bottom. I hated it. I learned very quickly what to do and what not to do.
I yelled at my mother for the last time when I was 14 years old. She chased me up the stairs into my room. I locked the door behind me before she could get in. She busted my door open, tackled me, and gave me the butt whoppin' of my life.
The worst part of the whole ordeal? Hearing the garage open when my father got home. I heard my mom crying, then I heard the word "WHAT?" from downstairs. A minute later there was a knock at my broken door, and there was my dad with a chair from the kitchen. He lectured me calmly for two hours about respect, and ended it by saying "Now if you ever speak to my wife like that again, I'll quite literally break your jaw."
That was the last time I ever yelled at my mother.
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quote:Originally posted by dkw: We don't spank, but I'm quite sure that if we did "immediate compliance" would not be the reaction we'd get.
My boys have often said things along the lines of "I wish you would just spank us and get it over with instead of taking away our game time". I tell them that's all the more reason to use the more "painful" punishment. They way they beat up on other, I am sure spanking would make no impression on them. If we spanked them harder than they hit each other, it would get CPS called on us.
Posts: 2711 | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
Before I was a parent, I had tons of opinions on raising children.
I certainly never told individuals how to raise *their* kids. But I had general thoughts, based on having been a kid myself, based on what I'd seen other people do wrong, etc.
Now that I have kids myself...
I still believe that most of what I used to think was correct.
So I certainly don't discount non-parents when they have opinions on raising kids, just like I don't just accept parents' opinions. It's the opinion that is either valid or invalid, not the person holding it.
There's a big difference between saying "parents need to present a united front so kids don't play one against the other" and "you shouldn't let your child have ice cream for breakfast!!"
I never appreciate a stranger telling me how to raise my specific kid. That just activates a primal "protect my child" instinct. I don't know how I'd react if a friend took me aside and told me I was being a lousy dad and tried to help. I sure wouldn't like but I'd at least listen. I want to be a good dad, if something is wrong enough for someone to do something so amazingly uncomfortable as calling out my parenting, I'd better listen.
Of course I'm a great dad so that probably won't happen.
As for spanking, I do usually ignore the advice of anyone who thinks I should *never* spank my children. As it happens I've hardly ever spanked my daughter, because she is a very good child and the Dadsie Voice works wonders. But there have been a few times when she needed it, and I did, and it was very effective, and I'm not sorry I did it, even though I always feel bad for causing her pain, whether it's a swat on the butt or a sharply spoken word.
But sometimes kids do dangerous things and need to know it's serious. And sometimes they flout parental authority and need to know they can't.
I find most anti-spankers tend to look at the lousy parents who hit their kids mistakenly think that anyone who spanks their children has something in common with them. You might just as well compare me to a serial killer because I breathe oxygen or drank milk as a child.
Parents who abuse their kids, parents who hit their kids as a first resort, I really have *nothing* in common with them. The fact I believe spanking can be an appropriate disciplinary tool no more puts me in a group with them than it does because we both wear shoes when we leave the house.
"It teaches kids to hit to solve their problems." I'm sure it does, improperly handled. My daughter was able to learn the difference though: I'm a parent and she's a child. I drive a car, she doesn't. I decide when we can watch TV, she doesn't. I use the stove, she doesn't. I dole out punishments (whether spanking, or a lecture, or whatever), she doesn't.
So far she's very happy, bright, and well-adjusted.
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quote: Which goes back to the whole each-parent-and-each-child thing.
It really does. When I became a parent, I was solidly pro-spanking, in the sense that I thought there were probably times when a spanking was the only method that was appropriate, but had never had to put it into effect. I did end up spanking my kids once or twice, but the only thing I ever used it for was blatant lying, and only after two clear warnings, because I saw lying as something that had to be stopped before it became a habit.
The weird thing is now I can't imagine spanking them for any reason; it seems like it would be incomparably cruel. But I think it's just because they are who they are. They aren't the kind of kids to throw tantrums or break things or be defiant. They don't lie to me. My daughter gets a little squirrel-y when forced to admit that she's done something wrong, but generally a clear look in the eye makes her spill her guts.
So, I don't know. My opinions on spanking are shifting. I still think they can be the best way to get your point across on things where nothing else works, and I don't necessarily believe that one spanking is going to warp a child. But you really do have to know your child, and I know my children well enough to say that spankings aren't appropriate for them.
Posts: 6367 | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
I'm not one of those rabidly anti-spanking types who will say that spanking them even once 'warps' them. it's just that when analyzed with careful study it more or less turns out that the less you actually use spanking, the better off you are, and being able to craft together a parenting plan that works with no spanking whatsoever is the ideal.
This is hard, though, because spanking is so easily effective at what it is supposed to do, at least immediately. Spanking works, but its a crutch used where better options are apparently 'always' (or at least in the vast majority of cases) are opted against. It shouldn't be confused as a superior or necessary tool.
Well, off to the races, right? I don't have a very deep background in developmental psychology but I still did a lot of research into this. What I've seen of the research allows me to make a hopefully convincing case for it.
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I find most anti-spankers tend to look at the lousy parents who hit their kids mistakenly think that anyone who spanks their children has something in common with them. You might just as well compare me to a serial killer because I breathe oxygen or drank milk as a child.
Parents who abuse their kids, parents who hit their kids as a first resort, I really have *nothing* in common with them. The fact I believe spanking can be an appropriate disciplinary tool no more puts me in a group with them than it does because we both wear shoes when we leave the house.
So far she's very happy, bright, and well-adjusted.
I don't think this is true. I do know some parents like that, but most of the parents I know who spank are ones I would characterise as "otherwise good parents". But I think spanking is always wrong and never needed, and I do NOT have easy kids. Yet, without ever striking them, I have molded them into kids who are polite and decent to others. (As in, not their siblings).
Posts: 2711 | Registered: Mar 2004
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Being a parent really doesn't change your opinion of children all that much, at least in my case. With my children I am biased by my love for them. I never liked having children around and I still don't...unless they are mine. It's like asking someone their opinion of someone they are in love with...do you expect an accurate description? With my kids, I love the "terrible two's". They are so curious and their objectivity and brutal honesty slaps you in the face.
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Samp put it well. Corporal punishment is basically a lazy, low effort way out-- you convey much disapproval combined with a real, tangible punishment, and, unlike other forms of punishment, it does not require constant follow up and enforcement over time: it's one and done (as an aside, is this less traumatic than a long and ongoing explanation of why a kid is bad/wrong? just an undeveloped thought that struck me here).
However...
As I am constantly telling my kids when I play the "I'm the parent and you will listen to me" card, when there's a limited amount of parent and an excessive amount of kid, sometimes you don't have time to mess around. My overall response to this thread was basically what Hank said: until you are a parent, you don't understand how time, energy, and emotion-expensive kids are. Until you have several children, you don't understand how exponential that drain is. Until you've done it as a single parent, you probably have no concept of "total exhaustion", which for me has been forever redefined as "the state resulting from a couple months of going to bed every night realizing how completely insufficient you are to even a week of the 24-7 task before you, yet committing to continue it for the foreseeable future." Air Force survival and resistance training was a cakewalk by comparison.
So, as Samp said, spanking is pretty much a crutch. I would add, however, that sometimes a crutch is helpful.
This speaking as someone who tries to minimize spanking, but is absolutely willing to use that particular tool.
ETA: I think the biggest issues with spanking occur when it's your "go-to" method. When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
Posts: 3846 | Registered: Apr 2004
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I don't know how you do it Jim-Me. I've got just the two and I go stir-crazy when Bob is gone for a week. And I've got extended family back-up.
This morning, in an effort to avoid beating the 3-year old, or possibly dropping him out the window, I threw a diaper at his head. It felt so good I threw another. And another. It ended with him laughing his head off burried under a mountain of (clean!) diapers and me feeling much more charitable toward him. And then he loaded them all back in the laundry basket and sat down in the middle of the floor so I could do it again.
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
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I don't even want to try to use that tool when I have kids... There's a history of abuse in my family and it seems to easy to get out of control. If a child doesn't respond to a tap on the butt, then, without any other tools in the toolbox, what if I start breaking out the belt? Which I don't have at all. I suspect being hit by my mother with a belt mostly made me terrorfied of her, which is probably why I am totally, absolutely anti-spanking. It's strange to my how my mother says things like if you don't hit a kid they won't be good, but she got wailed on with extension cords and hangers. And she hated it. As soon as there was a child protection line she threatened to call it on her father. I really do not understand that one bit. Especially since I had cancer at the time and stuff... I hope when I have kids I can find some other way to show my parental authority because I wouldn't even trust myself to give a swat. There's just no decent formula when it comes to these things. I'll have to do things the difficult way.
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I do whole-heartedly agree with Samp's view of spanking and Jim's follow-up. Having said that, I have spanked my son twice, both times because I was angry and fed up, and neither time with anything approaching effectiveness. That may be because I felt so awful about it afterward that I started hugging him and apologizing for my behavior...
Somehow, he's a really good kid. I can't help feeling that I didn't have much to do with that. Posts: 2392 | Registered: Sep 2005
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Well, I did talk that crazy woman into helping me out on a permanent basis this summer, so I don't have to do it alone any more.
quote: This morning, in an effort to avoid beating the 3-year old, or possibly dropping him out the window, I threw a diaper at his head. It felt so good I threw another. And another. It ended with him laughing his head off burried under a mountain of (clean!) diapers and me feeling much more charitable toward him.
what a great story! finding productive ways to channel frustration is huge.
quote: That may be because I felt so awful about it afterward that I started hugging him and apologizing for my behavior... Somehow, he's a really good kid.
I think your willingness to be fallible in front of and accountable to your child probably has a lot to do with that. Setting the example of being accountable for your own actions teaches them far more than any punishment, IMO.
Posts: 3846 | Registered: Apr 2004
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Most of my friends don't have kids, but I still value their advice. The problem is, most of them don't have any advice other than stock answers that are sort of just "out there" roaming around the universe under that vague heading of "child rearing". Advice from friends with kids is usually more helpful because alot of times they give advice by recommending courses of action that have really worked for them. While all children are different, if a friend has actually tried something, I'm more willing to believe that it's doable.
Now, if you're saying that people are using their status as a parent to make them seem more wise about issues OUTSIDE of child rearing, then I can't understand that. Having a child has made me alot of things, but it hasn't made me any smarter. I know nothing more of politics, physics, or the best wines just because I'm a parent. In fact, I think I often know less about a variety of things because my focus has shifted and devote my energies towards parenting.
Posts: 1321 | Registered: Jun 2006
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I don't have kids yet. I would generally not offer any unsolicited advice to any parent (even the ones I know very well) because unless there's a risk to the child or a specialist issue I might have knowledge on (e.g., impairment and supports), it's not my business. However, if I thought there was a risk, I absolutely would hope I'd step in. If I was asked for advice, I would politely offer my opinion.
However, when I have kids I will probably be split not so much on the parent/non-parent line as I will based on the actual person. There are parents whose style I really disagree with. I have single, childless friends who I would definitely ask for an opinion. Random advice from strangers, though, would probably elicit a hostile response.
A lot depends on how the advice is couched, too. "Here's a technique I tried/read about, have you tried it?" will always get a better response than "You really shouldn't let them be doing X, you know."
***
On the subject of spanking, I am not unilaterally opposed. I do agree with the rules my parents set themselves for spankings:
1. Only as a last resort when other disciplinary measures have failed OR when there is a clear and immediate danger*. 2. Open hand only. No objects, ever. No fist, ever. 3. Only on the bum. 4. Many clear warnings. 5. Never, ever in anger. If you're angry, wait. Make it clear why you are waiting. It should be a clear "action-consequence" thing, not revenge or lashing out. 6. Lots of love after.
Spanking should never be the first option, or the only tool in the box. It should be rare, or never. Some kids respond much better to non-spanking punishments, but for some, the slight shock might be necessary.
* I'm not even sure I count this as a spanking. Once or twice my parents needed to give one of us a quick swat on the bottom to get our attention - like the time my three-year-old sister tried to run out onto a busy rural highway. It didn't really hurt, but it got her attention so that she stopped squirming and shrieking and could listen to my father as he explained how dangerous that was. Sort of like smacking a hysterical person, but less painful and only when the danger is worse than the swat.
Posts: 2849 | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
I didn't comment on the spanking issue. Growing up I thought I would *never* spank my children because it was a totally noneffective punishment with me growing up. I'd still try to not get spanked if one was already coming (my dad actually broke my bed trying to catch me to spank me once), but a spanking was over so quickly that the threat never prevented me from doing anything at all.
I changed my mind quickly when my son was about 18 months old and learned he could reach the nobs on the stove. He thought they were toys and I have a gas stove. That was a dangerous enough situation that I couldn't risk continual redirection to keep him away from them. (What if he turned one on when I was in the bathroom or something, and I didn't notice right away!). So, spanking his hand was the method of choice. It only took two or three times and he got the idea that the stove was NOT an area in which to play.
I figured it would end there, but unfortunately it has not. I've learned that my son, at least, doesn't actually respond to endless repetition in a behavior modification method. It doesn't matter what it is, punishments and rewards both, after a while he gets inured to it and it stops working. I use spankings rarely enough that they're still often good in a situation where it is extremely hard to get him to engage his brain. (I don't know how else to explain this. He'll be so set on something that it's like nothing you say to him actually connects, even if you are looking strait into his eyes from 6 inches away.)
That being said, the *threat* of a spanking is still far far far more common in my parenting technique than an actual spanking is. It's one of my last resorts after I've tried a variety of other methods.
And to get back to the subject of this topic. I prefer positive behavior reinforcement. I use it regularly in a variety of ways. I "catch him being good" whenever I can. He has a sticker chart on the fridge. He gets allowance for doing his chores without complaining. We have a staggered reward system for good behavior in school. If you'd asked me before I had kids, I would have told you that this sort of system was probably all you would ever need. It's only in the face of my real life child that I've learned that I have to use alternative methods of behavior modification, even some I don't like.
Even so, I've never made him do the WORST thing my parents used to do to us. They used to make us kneel in the corner on our tile floor. It had intricate patterns cut into it, so that very VERY quickly they became extremely painful, and the patterns would be embedded in the skin of your knees. Compared to THAT, spanking is nothing!
Posts: 1321 | Registered: Jun 2006
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There's a reason why Solomon said, "Cut the baby in two."
There's a reason why "Honor thy Father and Mother" is a commandment, not a suggestion, a proverb, a parable, or an aphorism. And yes, I'm certain that the author of that commandment knew exactly how inadequate and undeserving many --if not most -- parents are.
Posts: 270 | Registered: Apr 2009
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I find myself having to remind my husband of that verse. He likes to deliberately annoy our child. Posts: 2762 | Registered: Sep 1999
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There are exceptions of course. I treat those exceptions as they come.
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