posted
You know, even while cleaning up a poopy paint mess, and wanting to scream, I still had the little part of my that said "In a little while, this is going to be funny."
And it is.
Maternal instinct is a funny thing. It isn't as automatic as some people might think, nor is it some neverending font of loving children.
My maternal instinct is gone, now. I don't know what happened to it. I spent all my teenage years to about 3 years ago being baby hungry and loving to hold babies and I don't anymore. I love children, and am fascinated by them, I love volunteering in the schools, but I'm no longer baby hungry. It is kind of sad, but life is what it is.
posted
Icarus and Cor are indeed strict. And their daughters are wonderfully well-behaved in public. And they get disciplined in public all the time.
Here's what I think:
Family venue (family-style restaurant, amusement parks, kid movies), relax and have fun with it. The kids are often the best part of the show, so enjoy it!
Public venue (public street, stores (even toy stores), restaurants with table cloths and where the wait staff don't wear polyester uniforms or name tags, church) I expect parents to discipline their children quicker than they might at a family place. And I expect the kids to be removed from the place if they can't be disciplined effectively in situ. I think it's important to look at the age of the child and how many other kids are there in the group. You can't expect a single parent to remove everyone because one is crying. It's too hard. And they can't leave the toddler at the table while taking the infant outside. But if a reasonable expectation of quiet exists, I think the parents should at least try. Leaving the table without parental approval (and perhaps escort) is just not to be allowed and the offending child must be disciplined.
Formal venues where people are paying to be there (expensive restaurants, live performances of theater or classical music/opera, clubs, etc.): leave the kids at home. At least until they are older and have demonstrated proper manners. If a child is there, I expect them to behave as ladies and gentlemen or to be silenced immediately AND taken away. No exceptions here for beleaguered over-tired parents either. If it means the whole family has to leave, then so be it.
This is pretty much all by observation, by the way. I think most people make allowances for extraordinary situations (tantrum, single parent with a large brood). I also think most parents are pretty much trying to moderate their kids' behavior according to the situation and type of environment.
Mrs. M. Sending the kids out to the car alone used to be the default option. I grew up that way too. Nowadays you'd lose your children to Social Services if you did that. They must be under adult supervision, so people with more kids than adults have a problem.
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
Amka, I apparently found your lost maternal instinct. If you would like it back and can figure out how I can get it to you, please let me know.
I thought I didn't want more than two kids. I was sure of this while I was pregnant with my daughter -- I did not have a good time being pregnant. I was still sure of this up to the time my husband got snip-snipped. A month later, another baby started to sound good...and now, over a year later, I'm looking at a pregnant runaway teen at church and scheming how I can convince her to let me have her baby when it comes. (Of course, I will do no such thing...but boy, the temptation is there, let me tell you.) I start to cry when I hear stories of kids who aren't wanted. A part of me screams "I want them! Give them to me!"
So please, if I could just send you your maternal instinct back, I would be most grateful. Posts: 5948 | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
I agree that there is a time and a place for children, and that they need to be kept in line by their parents in public places.
That being said, this thread struck a chord with me because, in the US, there is so much intolerance for children being out in public even when they are well-behaved.
An example: When my daughter was 4-months-old, we went back to stay at the bed-and-breakfast we had stayed at after our wedding. My daughter was perfectly behaved, slept all night, and in the morning, the other people staying at the bed-and-breakfast cooed over how cute and well-behaved she was. Then the proprietor came up. After remarking that the baby was very cute, he stated that the next time we came we should leave her home. We never went back to that place again.
The above story sort of relates to the kind of attitude that Olivet is tired of, and what I am trying to illustrate:
quote:I'm just tired of getting looks from people, directed at my kids, for doing nothing other than just BEING. Not to mention be compared to criminals.
What bothers me about Mrs. M's remarks is not the idea that some places should be child-free, but the tone she takes:
quote:I'm sorry, but I vehemently disagree. I think that most parents are NOT considerate when it comes to how their childrens' behavior affects others in public. It's gotten to the point where Andrew and I avoid family restaurants and go to the latest showings of movies that we can.
First of all, I disagree that most parents are inconsiderate. I think that most parents are doing the best they can, and can't always control when their children act up in public - but if the children do, and can't be calmed, they should be taken out. My son could never be taken to a restaurant when he was little, he just couldn't sit still that long, so we ended up doing a lot of take-out. And, as has been pointed out above, family restaurants are for families. Maybe you need to find different kinds of restaurants, if you want them to be childfree.
I agree that toddlers shouldn't be taken to adult movies, but a sleeping infant is oblivious to what is going on, and could be taken - but, again, should be taken outside if crying.
quote:Honestly, I haven't really noticed any misbehaved children in public places. Misbehaved parents, all the time.
Yes, I agree with you, Scott.
quote:No, Mrs. M is targeting all parents except Olivet. quote:
Olivet, I think that you are the exception, bless your heart. The lone exception.
This comment is the only thing that I found especially rude in this thread. And I did find it very rude and tactless. I think that the majority of parents are doing their very best.
Yes, I agree with you, solo.
Sometimes, parents are just stuck in public places with an unhappy child and not much they can do to fix it. A case in point: We were in an airport, on the way home from a trip, waiting to catch our plane. My son, then a toddler, chose this moment to have a massive temper tantrum, and nothing would calm him. An airport employee from the upper level came down and asked me, "Can't you make him shut up?" Having tried everything to do just that, with no success, I responded disgustedly, "No, can you?"
That's my two-cents worth, for now.
**Ela**
[ January 29, 2004, 06:42 PM: Message edited by: Ela ]
Posts: 5771 | Registered: Nov 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
Y’know, Banna, that story reminded me of something. Whenever I go somewhere expecting to have a long wait (generally waiting for a bus or a train) I bring my juggling things. It passes the time and hey, I don't practice enough as I should. I'm stunned by how often parents drop their children off with the "nice juggler" and then go off to do God-knows-what. Especially unsettling when my train comes and I really *have* to leave. What do I do with the kid? I kinda feel responsible but at the same time, who does that? And what if I wasn't a "nice juggler" but was a "pedophile juggler". And yet, it happens ALL the time.
Parents. Yeesh. Now back to your regularly scheduled discussion.
Posts: 3243 | Registered: Apr 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
Bob, that's just plain stupid. (Not you, the parents.)
Banna, forgive me, and maybe I read what you wrote wrong, but if you didn't want the baby anymore, why didn't you just say so? My little daughter (now not quite 2) loves being with other people, and I've slowly learned that many people enjoy her company too. At church, she makes the rounds, and I'm more than happy to take her back from whoever has her (Ross or I always know where she is) but I no longer hover over that person to make sure they're okay with keeping her. They're grownups, they can say they don't want to hold her anymore. If she gets unruly and starts misbehaving, I take her back right away. Could it be that the baby's mom just assumed you still wanted to hold him?
Posts: 5948 | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
Wow, a very interesting thread to read. It warms my heart to hear all of your stories and comments. My wife and I were never against seeing kids before we had our own, but we were perhaps a bit too harsh in our judgments of their parents' discipline strategies. Now that we have two, of course, we are much more forgiving.
The last time we took our kids to a fairly nice restaurant, it was kind of unplanned because my manager decided our team should go there to eat that day, and I had planned to meet my wife and kids for lunch, and Erik was only a few months old, and so we decided just to consolidate our plans and bring the kids along. As it turned out, Erik slept through the whole meal in his carseat, and Emily lay down across our laps and slept through the whole thing as well. I had to lay a (thin paper) napkin over her head so I wouldn't get rice on her, because I couldn't lean over the table to eat.
But our version of Eating Out is usually Mickey D's, where there's a big PlayPlace (which Emily refers to as "the adventure"). Or we just get take-out or order pizza. We go to nicer restaurants only when we have a babysitter lined up (barring strange circumstances). I'm sure that's how most parents with very young kids do it.
For us, the big "public" discipline test is a weekly occurrence--church on Sunday. The first hour is Sacrament Meeting, where the whole family attends. And it is an endurance test. Emily, who is almost 3, still gets restless and hard to hold on to. I mean, we try to keep her fairly still and busy coloring or playing with a quiet toy, but it is physically exhausting to hold on to her when she wants out. We do our best to remind her to be quiet, and we spend time talking about it with her at home. But she just doesn't have the patience to be still and quiet that long. So we do the best we can, and try not to be disruptive. And we have spent many meetings in the foyer with our kids, helping them calm down. Luckily, Sacrament Meeting is a time when nobody is surprised if your kids flip out. Despite the parents' best shushing efforts, it is a fairly noisy meeting when 10 or more families in the chapel have small children. But nobody will tell you not to come to church because you have small children.
Thank goodness for Nursery, which we can take our kids to beginning at 18 months old. It lasts the final 2 hours of our church meetings, and features toys, activities, and snacks, plus around 4 adults to take care of things. Emily loves Nursery. We are looking forward to Erik turning 18 months, which is still 8 months off. With the kids in Nursery, we can enjoy our "adult" meetings as adults. Until Erik is 18 months, we have to trade off keeping him in meetings, and usually end up roaming the halls instead to keep him quiet. That's just the way it goes with kids.
Posts: 5957 | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged |
quote: Could it be that the baby's mom just assumed you still wanted to hold him?
Yes it is possible but this is an assumption I have problems with parents making. I find all to often most parents I meet think I want to hold little Joey etc, because he's so cute, how could I not want to? Especially since I don't have kids, because of course I want them. I've had parents get offended when I give the kid back, especially if they see no reason why I shouldn't continue to hold said kid. It isn't my child, it is theirs and yet they have made me responsible for it and get upset when I give the responsibility back to them.
Like I said, I have the utmost respect for parents and know that it is difficult. However they chose from their actions to bring the baby into this world so, it is their responsibility not mine. One of the main reasons why I don't have kids is because I don't want that responsibility! I'm not talking about a formal babysitting arrangement here, I'm talking at a church function or general gathering where these assumptions get made all to frequently.
posted
Bob, I know what you mean. I take my kids sometimes to a big public library a good distance from here. We don't go there often because of the long drive, but sometimes we make the trip because they have a bigger selection of books for me and an awesome preschool play area.
Now, the preschool play area has signs posted that children cannot be left there unattended. There are two librarians in there, but they're not babysitters. I've never left my kids there alone, when I need books I usually bring a list with me and go pick them all up before we go to the preschool area, then I can read some while they're playing.
One of our favorite things about this library is the puppet collection. A huge bin on the floor overflowing with every imaginable animal puppet.
I love puppets. I love playing with them, I can't resist them. Usually I wind up on the floor, surrounded by puppets because my twins keep handing me one after another "Make this one talk Mommmy!" I normally draw a crowd, and I wind up playing with a bunch of kids. Kid will flock to any adult silly enough to sit on the floor and put a stuffed animal on their hand and talk in goofy voices.
It appalls me when parents just sit their kids down near me and walk out! Just leave their kids with me, and go. They don't know me - I'm not wearing a tag identifying me as working for the library and even if I did work for the library, that's no excuse to leave them.
I'm amazed at people's trust sometimes. The preschool area is open to anyone walking through, it is set apart with a door that closes for sound, but there is no security to speak of. A pedophile could come in and pick up kids and walk out with no parents knowing because they were busy browsing shelves. That's just so scary!
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
Nope, it's important for the families to be together and the kids to be there.
Having said that, one of my absolute favorite things about singles wards is the silence during the sacrament. It's perfectly silent, and I love it. I have a hard time in family wards now because of the contrast. I usually sneak off after the sacrament to one of the empty classrooms to listen - it's easier to pay attention that way.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
| IP: Logged |
quote: but I no longer hover over that person to make sure they're okay with keeping her.
See the fact that you were hovering in the first place is a huge difference from the casual attitude I am critquing that I have seen displayed (by some parents, not all by any means)
It is the attitude of the parents, "oh we're handing you this kid so we are no longer responsible at least temporarily for anything having to do with the kid and can forget we have a kid for a while", that I am talking about. Like I said, it would be different if I was an actual baby sitter, but I am there to participate in the same event the parents are there for, and have no desire to be stuck with an unsolicited kid, just because I am childless. In such situations I have even gotten yelled at for not changing the kids diapers, even when I had no idea where the diaper bag was.
AJ
To tie in to Belle's example, while I'm sure she enjoys entertaining the children, it would be like one of the parents in the library that dumped their children off with her coming back and becoming upset because how dare she take her children and leave without looking after little Johnny too. Belle being the compassionate individual that she is probably makes sure that little Johnny finds his parent before she leaves, and I, because I'm not an ogre, would too. But it is an imposition from inconsiderate parents that annoys me.
At one point, Vladimir was the manager of the toy department at Walmart. This was at once the coolest and the most hellish department to have. He actually heard parents tell their kids to 'Stay here and play with the toys while I shop.'
Another time he found a kid on a riding toy, crashing into things. He asked the kid to please get off, the kid replied that his mother (another case of toy department drop off) had said it was okay.
But I think these are generally the exceptions. Things that extreme didn't happen every day. And every day, hundreds of parents with their children came into the store.
Posts: 3495 | Registered: Feb 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
I used to get this little girl named Kirsten, who is Robert's age, coming over all the time. She lives in the neighborhood, and I have a lot of kids over sometimes-- neighbor girls, mostly.
But anyway, she'd just come up here sometimes-- she even got off the bus with Robert once (not a big deal, really as their stops are within sight of each other). Sometimes she wouldn't even be wearing shoes. At least twice, the mom came driving up and asked for her. The woman was newly divorced with 4 kids and a job to support them and all, and Kirsten tended to just leave and not tell her where she was going or anything.
Sometimes, her brother and sister would come, too, and they'd all play, but I made a point to call the mom and make sure she knew where they were (evidently some of this was while her teen was supposed to watching them). I walked her home a few times.
Then, just recently, we saw someone had lefttheir bicycle in our yard. We left it there, nearthe road, hoping someone would claim it. No one did. Then one of the neighbors moved it into our bushes, obviously thinking it belong to us and we were trying to make the neighborhood look trashy.
So, to clear things up, I moved it to directly beside our mailbox and put a big note on it that read: "If this is yours, please take it home. If you know who it belings to, please tell them to come get it. Otherwise it will be donated to charity next week."
Kirsten came up and told us it was hers. I was glad. She rode it around in our driveway for a bit, then went home WITHOUT IT. *sigh*
A week later I dropped it off at her house.
That might sound like a story of neglect, and it may have been, for a while. But I do know that that mother was making a huge life adjustment, and so were the kids. I still see them at the bus stop in the mornings (Ron and I are the only hold-outs that still wait with our kid at the bus stop, though there were many of us the first few months of school. It's colder now, and I confess that it's usually Ron, but I do it when he can't). I try to take the 'walk a mile in my moccasins' approach, and help where I think I can.
Posts: 9293 | Registered: Aug 2000
| IP: Logged |
quote:Thank goodness for Nursery, which we can take our kids to beginning at 18 months old. It lasts the final 2 hours of our church meetings, and features toys, activities, and snacks, plus around 4 adults to take care of things.
Ruth and I just got called to the nursery/primary (they're combined because we only have a couple primary-aged kids). I'm a little scared . . .
Posts: 9945 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
I praise God that our church has paid nursery workers, so I don't have to ever serve time in there.
I do however, help out with the older kids when they need me, I'm kind of the last minute substitute if you really truly can't find anybody else.
Children's ministry is not my calling. We all have our gifts, and that is not one of mine.
Now, if I could just sit down and play puppets with them, sure - but they want people to actually teach them something and then do crafts with them. Not for me.
Give me the teens,and adults. I work much better with people I can reason with and don't need my help to go potty.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
I love to do the crafts thing with kids. Even bunches of them. Ron also loves amusing the kids, though Our neighbors may wonder why their kids come home quoting Monty Python...
"Your father smelled of elderberrys!" and something about an "electric donkey bottom biter".
I have not worked in a church nursury since I caught Chicken Pox from a baby when I was a teen. Had it over Christmas break, no less. No. I love kids, though. I love the whole ordered-chaos, cat-herding excitement of having lots of kids over. But my limit is usually a couple of hours. Posts: 9293 | Registered: Aug 2000
| IP: Logged |
If you don't want to hold the kid, wave your hands, looked scared, and say, "Oh no, I drop babies." One woman I know says that, and I'm never offended. I don't know if she's lying or not, but at least she didn't say "Get the stupid ugly thing away from me."
I lived with a cousin and her parents when I was a teenager, and she used to hand me her three-week-old baby, then leave. Gone. She'd go off and have fun and never ask if I wanted the baby or anything. Once she actually took the baby from it's father, saying "Oh, Maureen wants to hold her" which I never said. Then the two of them took off. That was irritating.
Posts: 6367 | Registered: Aug 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
My wife was just recently released as one of the nursery leaders. She enjoyed it, I think, but was glad to be able to go to Relief Society again. I spent plenty of time in nursery until Emily got used to the idea of me leaving and her staying. It took her about 7 or 8 months. Nursery is such a peaceful, relaxing place, even when there are 15 kids running around wild with a trunkload of toys to play with. It's just peaceful. It's fun to watch the kids playing, and I admit it's fun to get out a few toys myself and tinker with them rather than sitting in Sunday School.
Good luck, Jon and Ruth! I hope you enjoy it!
Posts: 5957 | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
Jon, nursery duty is the best! Even when someone's crying, or messy, it's still better than listening to our ::yawn:: former engineer of a pastor talking. But then, maybe you have a better speaker to listen to.
Just be careful, my wife used to get upset when all the kids (which she had been watching for a while without me) liked me better.
Edit for goofy mistakes. I hate it when my brain is ahead of my typing.
posted
So, now that BtL has broken the ice, there's a little more support for many parents being nuggetheads, I see.
Let me add my own little anecdote. I used to work at one of the large book chains. This chain often has a children's section with a vcr and seats for children to sit in. It was never explained to me, but I assume this was so the parents could leave their children there to watch a vcr and go book shopping. No attendant or anything, mind you, and it was smack dab in the middle of the children's toys and books.
I have to admit that this was a pretty stupid idea on the company's part. The children are supposed to just sit there and watch the vcr and not play with the toys? Right. So, I fully admit the company was kind of daft in how they arranged it.
The thing that gets me is how few parents actually bothered to have their children put the stuff back on the shelves or cared that their kids took stuff off of the shelves. I mean, it should have been pretty clear to *adults* that the stuff on the shelves was not for playing with and was merchandise. So, I'm not sure what the parents were thinking by letting their kids play with the stuff. Going back to what BtL and Belle were saying, I'm not sure why the heck parents would just leave their pre-school kids there. But then to not have their children put it back and leave the mess they made? That just strikes me as kind of uncivilized. :/
I think a lot of people are being rather harsh on Mrs. M.. Even if it wasn't clear in her initial post, she made it perfectly clear in subsequent posts that she is talking about the retardo parents that don't parent. I think it's clear from the last few posts in this thread that this is something that we can all agree is not a good thing.
Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
PSI thanks for the idea. Unfortunately I did drop the kid (though not from a great height) that I referred to at Steve's family holiday get together. So I wouldn't even be lying!
quote:Ruth and I just got called to the nursery/primary (they're combined because we only have a couple primary-aged kids). I'm a little scared . . .
I'm in nursery now, and it's fun! We sing, and have conversations about doggies and kitties and ice cream, and make silly faces and silly noises, and pretend to be a train, and build things with blocks, and read stories. (I highly recommend The Complete Adventures of Big Dog and Little Dog by Dav Pilkey.) The kids also like to be swung up into the air while I shout "It's the Amazing Flying [kid's name]!"
(Once I collapsed in the floor in mock exhaustion after swinging some kids around. One little girl announced, "Hey, she's dead!" She started piling plastic toys on me. I have no idea why. I started to get up, but she informed me, "No, lay down. You're dead." Then some of the other kids started piling toys on me. Then we all just busted out laughing.)
I'd much rather hang out with the toddlers than with the uptight ladies in Relief Society.
(I have no kids -- is THAT why they put me in nursery? )
[ January 29, 2004, 05:34 PM: Message edited by: Yozhik ]
Posts: 1512 | Registered: A Long Time Ago!
| IP: Logged |
posted
Nursery is not my calling. Our church nursery takes 4mths to 2 years and while that age is very nice when it's your own, with other people's kids, I find it absolutely mind numbingly boring. In fact, I think other people's kids start to get interesting at about 2nd grade. Younger is okay, and I have fun with them, but at about 2nd grade, we can really start having some fun.
I *really* like children's ministry. I never thought I would, but I have such a good time with them I almost always enjoy it, even when they are little monsters. I don't have time to do it every week, but our children's ministry is always short handed, so I'm on the sub list rotation. I end up teaching Sunday School for some grade school age at least once a month. That means I never get the same kids twice in a row, and they have to test the boundaries and see how much nonsense I'll put up with. It sounds horrible, but it presents an invigorating challenge, and I always learn something.
Banna, I second what PSI said...when a person says "Hey, she's cute, but she looks best right where she is." I don't take it personally. I'd just as soon only give Rayne over to someone who wants and enjoys her company. I also don't mind at all, and in fact expect, if Rayne needs changing, that she be returned to me so I can do it. Whoever yelled at you was way out of line.
Posts: 5948 | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged |
quote:Jon Boy, my friend Molly had that calling until she got pregnant, when they called her to YW.
You know what that means. There's only one way out...
Seriously, though, I think it'll be fun. Ruth has gobs of babysitting experience, so I know she'll do well. I've never had to take care of babies before, so I'm just worried about not knowing what to do when they cry and stuff. But I'm sure it'll be good experience for the future. . . .
Posts: 9945 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
Advice for Robots, your post reminded me of my own childhood. I have very clear recollections of being punished every Sunday during and after church for all manner of misbehaviors. None of which I can recall. I do recall asking every week if I'd been good that day. Like I really didn't know.
And the fact is, I remember NOT knowing if I'd been good or not. I must've been 4 or 5 years old. something along those lines -- able to communicate well enough, but clueless as to the rules and that I had it in my own power to choose to obey them or not.
My god! Raising children must be really difficult.
I'm not sure what exactly to say, but I feel that I should say something.
See, parents who have an incredibly difficult time controlling their children (either from behavorial issues, mental illness, or both), most often come to my agency.
I get assigned to a case to work with the child in the community to start behavior management of the child's symptoms (temper tantrums, temper outbursts, impulsivity, ability to accept limits, etc). Basically, I PURPOSEFULLY take a child into a situation that he or she has a hard time with. Why? Because they have to begin to learn to accept limits and/or learn to manage symptoms. When some progress is made in the community (talking small steps), I also work in the home with the parents in modeling the techniques that have been successful with their kid. The thing is, a parent always knows their kid the best. I might have all kinds of training and experience in behavior management, but a parent is almost always the authority on their child (aside from the child himself).
Anyway. In vivo learning is a very, very good tool. Not all techniques will work in all situations. Sure, redirect a kid, but if he's pissed off enough, he won't buy it. Or if he's too upset, he can't think of anything else and won't pay attention. Sometimes kids are tired and misbehave because they can't quite communicate that they're tired and need to rest or don't WANT to be tired or need attention.
I completely agree that parents shouldn't bring children to inappropriate movies (hell, I saw gremlins when I was seven and had nightmares for a month...and I'm STILL afraid of the dark! o_O ). I agree that children should be left home with a sitter at times for certain restaurants.
But to generalize that parents don't care or aren't trying?
I work with parents from across the spectrum. Even the parents that are reported from DCYF ARE trying their best with their kids. Parents make sacrifices I can't even begin to fathom. They get tired and drawn and worn out and they can't take a break because the children are THEIRS.
And kids are their own person with their own wills and their own personalities. There are can outstanding parents with a "bad" kid and incredibly horrible parents with a "good" kid (I wonder if I'm an illustration of that? *shrug*).
I've also gotten looks and comments when I'm out in the community with my clients. I look..well, not my age (24 in case you don't already know). My youngest client is 4, my oldest is 17. The looks occur with the younger ones, obviously.
The four year old isn't potty trained. Not because he isn't able to do it, because he doesn't WANT to do it. And not because his parents weren't trying their BEST to train him. This kid is incredibly stubborn (Maybe that's why I got assigned to him, I can out-stubborn him ). He got pissed at a bowling alley because the wait was 45 minutes and we didn't have time to wait that long. So he decided he wouldn't leave.
We started the redirection. Then onto limit setting, giving him choices. Finally, I said, "You're leaving right now," took him by the shoulders, and took him out of the alley.
I can't even begin to explain my most trying client. Once, in a park, he decided to strip naked, then tear off across a field, through the woods and to some train tracks. He was eight at the time.
I have no idea WHY he did it. Neither did his mother. But this happens to parents. Kids do things that are inexplicable and are hard to react to and try and strategize on what the heck to DO with this savage.
The parents I work with know that their children have behavior problems. They've no idea (or very little at the start) how to begin to manage it. But every single parent I've worked with has expressed, more than once, that they are embarrassed, sorry, and feel so bad that their kids act the way they do, especially towards me.
And they're always confused when I say, "I WANT him/her to show me those behaviors."
But there are unacceptable situations to bring children into, aside from life's limitations. A rated R movie or a fancy restaurant (with littler ones), sure. But to generalize that parents don't give a crap, don't care, or have no idea what they're doing? That's crap.
Parents are people, too.
Posts: 14745 | Registered: Dec 1999
| IP: Logged |
I know folks think I am too strict with Nathan, but honestly, all my "training", "reading" and professional help/advice have shown one thing - he responds to physical stimulus. Period. Time out rarely works, reasoning is ridiculous, grounding has no effect, taking away privileges, offering privileges, etc - nothing. Thank GOD he's generally extremely well-behaved. But when he chooses to act up - that's it. And I don't like getting to the screaming level because then I've lost it.
I don't remember who said it, but he/she was right. I swore I would never yell at my child, make my child eat or take a nap, spank my child, etc.
Guess what . . .
Ahhhh - the joys of parenting.
All humans, big or ittle, are sooooo complex and different. Ya gotta love 'em - and ya gotta do what works. And hopefully, you'll achieve both without radically ofending 9/10's of the population.
But you know - it's okay by me if I do. My mother was offended that I wouldn't reinforce "no" with slapping. Instead I chose to "childproof" and allow safe areas for exploration. Most older women I knew (and quite a few younger) had numerous issues with breastfeeding, in public OR at home. The list goes on -
I just try to take into account the global picture. Posts: 5609 | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I admit, even though we've gotten a little more light-hearted in this thread toward the end, Mrs. M's initial posts still rankle me.
I'm trying not to haul off with a knee jerk reaction though, and talk about other things, and then here comes mack....
I know we had a long thred some time ago (couple years maybe?) about whether or not someone who wasn't a parent could understand what it was like or was in a position to offer advice to parents. It got rather heated, with a lot of non-parents saying "I don't have to be a parent to know what's best for kids."
I don't want to see this go in that direction, but I do have to say that her insinuation that all parents are inconsiderate (with the LONE exception of Olivia) has still got me rather pissed.
Mrs. M - you don't understand. You just don't. You won't until you have kids of your own. Until then, you need to lay off or you're going to continue to offend a lot of people.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
Mack you're somewhat different that most non-parents dear. Your job requires you to be in the trying situations parents find themselves in, as you explained above. And, your job puts you in a position where you have responsibility and care and concern for your clients 24 hours a day.
Your situation is the closest one can come to the experience of a parent, I would say.
And Shan - sorry but Olivia was the one that was singled out as a lone exception.
*sigh*
This is my hot button issue. I'm probably more upset by her comments than I should be. See, I've been spending a lot of time lately considering ministry to young mothers. I've found myself in the position of exhorter, lay counselor, and shoulder to cry on for a bunch of overwhelmed, stressed out Moms lately. I just think there are too many people who look at them (and at me!) and say "She doens't have a job, all she has to do all day is take care of her kids, so why aren't they better behaved?" Unfortunately, these people have never been in our shoes and don't have any clue what it really entails.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
| IP: Logged |
quote:Mrs. M - you don't understand. You just don't. You won't until you have kids of your own. Until then, you need to lay off or you're going to continue to offend a lot of people.
She doesn't have to understand what parents go through to be justified in bitching that many parents let their children run around all willy-nilly, endangering their safety and the safety of others.
And do you honestly think that she literally meant that Olivet was the only good parent in the entire world?
Posts: 5264 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
*Peeks around her favorite stuffed animal and blinks tearfully at mack - is that like an e-mail thing or do I actually have to submit information? Remember, we're dealing with a wee bit of paranoia here. Ask Icky - he couldn't even GIVE me money through that place . . . *
Posts: 5609 | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I read this as "Chill-Free Theaters and Refrigerators."
Yeah, the theater I get, but that refrigerator thing threw me for a loop.
My personal way of dealing with strangers' rambunctious/crying kids in public places is to play peekaboo with either my hands or the nearest large object. Distraction is the better part of valour. Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
My four-year-old son is scary good. He says please and thank you, he's soft-spoken, he cleans up after himself. My other two are, respectively, active but not bratty, and quiet and good. Servers in restuarants tell us they're very well-behaved.
My husband goes to school after work every weeknight until 11 pm. I have to take my kids with me to my church callings.
When I was the assistant scout leader, the scout leader was appalled that I brought my kids to her house with me. (Of course, HER 4-year-old boy is the one who breaks toys and kicks little girls in the head in nursery). A couple of weeks into the calling, she informed me she had worked out a deal with another sister in the ward, that I'd drop off my kids with her (including the nursing infant, apparently) and take her son to scouts. I'm pretty sure she thought she was being nice; however, I wasn't comfortable leaving my kids with this sister (I have once before, my kids came back with bruises from the other kids and with stains on their clothes) so I politely refused. And the next Sunday, I was informed I was released.
Along the same vein, a sister I visit teach who is otherwise very nice grills me about having children. "You're not having MORE, or you?" (She has fewer children and a lot more money.)
And the sister in charge of enrichment, my new calling, is upset when I can't make it to meetings on weeknights because of my kids.(If one is throwing up, then the whole evening is shot.) She feels that if I can't do a church calling properly because of being a mom, I shouldn't have kids.
I almost want to get pregnant with twins just to spite 'em.
My point is, I think it's interesting how many people who ARE parents are still intolerant of children. Even in the LDS church, which is, theoretically, pro-baby.
Though I must mention how many kind sisters watch me sprint into church at 11:45 am, 15 minutes before it ends, and seem to read in my eyes that I've been up since 6 am trying to get every diaper changed and tummy full and body dressed and just didn't make it, and who simply say, "Hey, nice to see you. Glad you made it."
I'd also like to mention the time a few years back when my husband and I had just gotten assigned to a new town. We knew no one, we lived in a horrible little apartment, we were poorer than we are now, we were having troubles. We needed to get out. We went to a super-nice restaurant with our year-old-son. The servers all smiled and were so kind to us when we desperately needed it, we nearly cried in gratitude. We make a point of going back to that place (sans kids) every year.
Sorry, I do go on. I guess this is a hot-button issue for me, too. I think that, more and more, there is a divide between the family culture and the non-family culture, and even some parents I know (and go to church with) aren't into "the whole family thing" and avoid the trappings of parenthood as much as possible.
posted
I appreciate your post, Sachiko. Nice to meet you, BTW.
Bob, we're pretty easy on our kids as far as their behavior in church. There's no punishment after church for their being restless. We do try to discuss it with Emily regularly, and we try to bring activities that will help her stay quiet. If Emily acts up, I take her out to the foyer, and don't let her go down to run around, and don't let her do anything until she asks to go back in and sit with Mommy. We're not harsh. If you ever attended an LDS sacrament meeting, you would find it rather on the loose, open end of Sunday services as far as structure and congregation behavior. There's nobody walking around with a stick and thumping people when they fall asleep.
Posts: 5957 | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged |
Printer-friendly view of this topic
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[ROFL]](graemlins/rofl.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
)![[Angst]](graemlins/angst.gif)
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
>![[Grumble]](graemlins/grumble.gif)
![[Cry]](graemlins/cry.gif)
