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My philosophy on the matter: People are going to be annoying whether you like it or not, so you should just chill. The only other real option is to be a grump about it, which will mainly have the same results, but will make you look (and usually feel) worse.
Posts: 2432 | Registered: Feb 2001
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Are you responding to me, Syn? Did I say it's okay for children to run around restaurants? Actually, I said the opposite. Did you read my post?
quote:No one's trying to insult anyone's parenting
Really?
quote: Actually, they were ruined by the parents of these children, who didn’t care that they have failed to teach their offspring how to act in public.
quote: As one of the founding members of the Birth Control In The Water PAC . . .
quote: And I agree that it's the parents that have failed, but then again, have you noticed how some adults act in public?
quote: I think that most parents are NOT considerate when it comes to how their childrens' behavior affects others in public.
quote: They can't bear to be without movies but don't want to pay for a sitter and don't have the common courtesy to seek alternatives to ruining your experience.
quote: But, dragging some irritating kids DAD outside to stand on him for a while might be okay...
quote: Who is in charge of your family? Parenting *means* giving up a singles life style which includes setting aside some social activities, or cutting back.
Have you been reading the same thread I have?
Look, my point is certainly not that parents are never wrong. Heck, half of my post was in agreement with Mrs.M., including the idea that there should be some places that are absolutely child-free.
My concern is with the imputation of motive that I keep seeing--they don't give a damn, they don't want to make sacrifices, they want everyone else to pay for their good time--or the judging of fitness to parent based on one incident of which you see only one side.
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As a parent and a general all round great and insightful person, I salute you. It is a complex issue, and no-one (parents or non-parents) can claim to have the ultimate answer.
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quote:Comments like having kids entails sacrifice feel insulting to me because they make assumptions about what we as parents do all the time. They make assumptions that my kids are always out of control, that I never leave them home, and that I'm so self-indulgent that I thought I could eat my cake and have it too. Don't you think I have sacrificed? You don't know what anybody else thinks or thought, so don't presume to judge on that basis.
While I do not have children, I believe the majority of parents who are on Hatrack, are indeed good parents. Most of the people on hatrack are generally polite as well. We have a lot more civility and concern about community than many othe forums. Most of us agree Hatrack is unique.
However, Icky, while I do believe you have sacrificed for your kids and a good parent, there are many people out there who are obviously not. You wouldn't hear the news stories every day if it weren't the case. The mother who left her baby alone on a bed for TWO DAYS in an empty apartment so she could go have a good time.
On a much less abusive scale, the parents who bring their children to theaters after 9 and 10pm at night. (At least in Chicago they do quite frequently IMO.) Those kids should be home and in bed and no wonder they are cranky and fussy. In that case I can and do blame the parents. They are rude and inconsiderate to other movie goers.
As far as resturaunts go, in my own experience while we were growing up my parents didn't. McDonalds was a treat. Once we could behave in McDonalds then they started upgrading the quality of a resutraunt. I did embarrass my mother once when she caught me playing with my mashed potatoes with my fingers. My response was, "well I always do it at home" which embarrased her further. However it was true, I did put architectural features in my mashed potatoes but because I was quiet and well-behaved and tending to my brothers, she never noticed. Mostly they didn't go out with or without us because they didn't want to spend money either way.
I think the majority of Hatrack parents are taking this way too personally. You are the good guys, who are doing your best. It is these seeming multitudes of parents out there (though probably less than we realize, they just seem like more because they are obnoxious) that don't do anything to modify children's unacceptable behaviors at which I believe Mrs. M is targeting her criticism.
quote: Are you willing to stay home every day of your life after you have children? Because that is the only way you can assure that you wont' be going out when your child has a bad day or behavior problems.
This and some other comments have made me think that most people have forgotten the age-old method of taking your kids out of the restaurant. You can be having a bad day, and your kids can be having a bad day and be acting up, and that's not necessarily a reflection of your parenting skills. What DOES reflect your parenting skills is your refusal to discipline your child, which may include excusing them and yourselves from your dining experience for the evening. ("You" in this case doesn't refer to anyone in particular.) Which brings me to...
quote: Olivet (I think it was) raise a very good point: if we don't occasionally take our kids out, they won't learn how to behave in public.
Part of learning how to behave in public includes learning that it is possible to lose your privilege of being in public that time. How does it teach a kid how to behave in public when you're letting them do whatever they want? That doesn't actually qualify as behaving. Off to the car with 'em.
quote: I have gone up to women I didn't know and talked to them and had them break down and cry when I did nothing more than ask them if they were doing okay and could I help them in any way. You have no idea how very hard it is to be a mother of toddlers. NO idea what it is to bear the brunt of that responsibility day in and day out. The average mom of toddlers has sleep depravation, money problems (especially if she has quit working to be a stay-at-home Mom), and a very high level of day-to-day stress that she can't escape.
The last woman I sat with and prayed with was trying to juggle being a Mom of three, a bookeeper for her husband's business (she did all the work at night after the kids went to bed, usually getting to bed herself at 2:00 am), and the primary caregiver of her Alzheimer's afflicted mother.
Often you can tell the difference between this kind of haggard parent and the one that just doesn't give a rip. The latter is the one laughing, drinking (or not), smiling and enjoying their time in blissful ignorance of their child's current activities. If the former were having that much fun, I'd question her depression.
quote: I have gotten more dirty looks this way than over my kids' behavior at the table. Dang it, I'm doing what virtually everybody in this thread has said is the right thing!
Actually, these people are annoying. Sorry you had this experience. Most people I've seen have been grateful to see me quickly discipline my children in whatever way as soon as they begin misbehaving. Maybe it's possible you waited a long time before doing what was necessary? Not that I was there or anything. Most people aren't going to be as grateful as you'd think they'd be if you let your kids holler for twenty minutes before doing anything. But if that's not your case, I apologize.
Added: I forgot to mention my hubby's grandma, who had six kids in ten years. These she took to nice restaurants only when their dad was on leave. They behaved very well. That's because they wanted to enjoy their special time with their dad, and if they misbehaved, they got to go home. I just love that story. Imagine six kids between 2 and twelve all being as good as gold. Makes me squishy inside. The funny thing is that when you talk to her kids they say, "Of course we didn't act up. We didn't get to finish dinner if we did." This is the attitude most parents need to take, in my opinion.
quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Olivet (I think it was) raise a very good point: if we don't occasionally take our kids out, they won't learn how to behave in public.
Part of learning how to behave in public includes learning that it is possible to lose your privilege of being in public that time. How does it teach a kid how to behave in public when you're letting them do whatever they want? That doesn't actually qualify as behaving. Off to the car with 'em.
o_O
Did you read my post?
quote:Maybe it's possible you waited a long time before doing what was necessary? Not that I was there or anything. Most people aren't going to be as grateful as you'd think they'd be if you let your kids holler for twenty minutes before doing anything.
Actually, I'm much more often accused of being too strict. But I guess by posting and showing vulnerability, I opened myself up to that. I guess I should just have said that my kids are always perfect and that we're excellent parents. As it is, I'll just have to hope that someone who's actually seen me with my kids will post and back me up that I am not the kind of parent who does nothing while my kids run wild.
Look, I know you're trying to be balanced. But you seem to have picked a couple of quotes up out of my post while overlooking a lot.
-o-
You're right, Anna. There are cases where judgments are definitely called for. And we Hatrack parents are no doubt being touchy. But I think we're being touchy both because several posts have been quick to characterize parents of misbehaving children as automatically incompetent and unfit for the job--at first, anyway. Now that people are responding to that, some of them are backing off of those stances--and also because at some point or another IRL we have felt unfairly judged, and so we're sensitive to it.
My point is not that we're the good guys, but that even people who are trying to be the good guys will fail from time to time, because this is an incredibly big job that nothing can prepare you for. But thank you for your kind words. I very much appreciate them. Posts: 1112 | Registered: Jan 2003
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Sorry. No, I read your post, and I grabbed that quote out of there because I couldn't find the original one. That first part wasn't directed at you in particular, just my feelings about the sentence itself. My opinion about what's important about taking your kids out.
And, hey, if you think you're a little too strict, then more power to you. I feel that way about myself, and truthfully, being too strict in this era is probably comparable to being just strict enough in our parent's time.
Posts: 6367 | Registered: Aug 2003
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I wasn't responding to anything but the idea of letting kids run amuck in resturants where there's hot and dangerous things about. I wasn't trying to insult or attack anyone, but it does drive me nuts. Parents not putting hats on babies... Kids being allowed to crash shopping carts everywhere... Stuff like that just makes me twitch in horror...
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quote:I think the majority of Hatrack parents are taking this way too personally. You are the good guys, who are doing your best. It is these seeming multitudes of parents out there (though probably less than we realize, they just seem like more because they are obnoxious) that don't do anything to modify children's unacceptable behaviors at which I believe Mrs. M is targeting her criticism.
You know, I'd find it very unlikely that there'd be multitudes of parents out there like that but somehow Hatrack hasn't managed to get any of them.
Posts: 2432 | Registered: Feb 2001
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quote:though probably less than we realize, they just seem like more because they are obnoxious
This may be the crux of it.
EDIT to add:
I think the majority of parents are trying to do the best as they see it. And I think that it is a typical reaction for anybody (myself included) to look at somebody handling something differently than you would and summarily dismiss them as incompetent.
And of course, there really are incompetent and even abusive parents.
But when the belief that they are omnipresent becomes common, then the rest of us can't help but fear that people are being a bit too quick to judge, and we don't want to be included in those broad generalizations.
There was more I wanted to say, but it's slipped my mind . . .
I think the problem is that PSI and Syn don't seem to notice that we agree with them, or else they think we're trying to excuse the sort of thing that really IS out of line.
Oy. I can't think of how many times I've had to take somebody out of a place. And I have had a few occasions where I had a child who was acting up and no place to go with them (large family outings for people's birthdays and whatnot-- I think it only happened twice), and on one of those occasions the food took forever to arrive, we took the little one outside three times and he behaved when we came back... for a while. And we got chastized by a couple near us, who were very demanding that we take the child out again. Well, I had hadit, and that was the last straw. We had come 300 miles to have lunch with my mother, and she wanted this restaurant (a mexican one that was informal, and her favorite). We had come with everyone and we couldn't leave. Liam, usually very good, was hungry and the food was 45 min in coming. My sister, who is great at confrontations handled it for me. The couple left eventually (the service was really bad that day, even though we had picked an off-time for lunch, and they didn't have a free smaller dining room (which they usually did for large parties)).
So I know for a fact that my kids have pissed people off in retaurants, but in one instance I couldn't help it, and in the other ( the guy who cursed and was asked to leave by the management) the person was just plain too sensitive.
I don't think a no-kids restaurant is a bad idea, not at all. But people can be jerks, and some of them do let their kids run wild, etc. The only thing Icky and Belle and I trying to say is that THOSE PEOPLE ARE NOT US. We do our best, and we think it's unfair to be lumped together with people who leve their babies alone for two days.
That's not unreasonable, is it?
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Not to be rude, Nick, but it should be obvious what my point was, when others on this thread took six inches to explain that the situation with kids is different in theaters than in restaurants. I put it in one line, and you're confused?
And whenI said that being a parent means sacrificing, I mean it in a good way. Sacrifice is a good thing, it teaches you to love. and no one should be offended by that because sacrifice is, by its nature, a subjective thing. It obviously is a much bigger sacrifice for others to not go to the movies than it is for me. I'm not judging their sacrifice. I'm saying it's kind of cheap when some people want YOU to pick up the check of THEIR sacrifice. that's it.
Interesting, though, isn't it? How defensive everyone is of their parenting abilities?
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While generalities were made, individuals were certainly not pointed out. But the individuals feel a strong desire to defend their positions.
However, we'll never _actually_ know _exactly_ how good their kids are in restaurants, or how they actually deal with their kids in restaurants/theaters/bowling alleys/supermarkets. So it's a bit one-sided, really. We'll take their word for it, 'cause they're generally good for their word.
Defending a position that can't be proven can make you feel better, but who knows.. maybe one out of every 10 parents who truly thinks they're a good parent is really quite lousy in public.
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Olivet, again, the statement wasn't a defensive statement. The point I was trying to get across is this: Here is a statement. Here are my feelings on the statement. You seem to be the one that thinks there is disagreement. Maybe it's just because at Hatrack we are so used to the quote and refute tactic. Can't I quote and expound? Or quote and share?
Posts: 6367 | Registered: Aug 2003
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Rohan, We do the best we can, and we take a lot of insensitive shite from people who obviously know all about being a parent from working in their church nursuries.
If we're defensive, it's because we're used to being attacked, sneered at and dismissed as "Breeders" by people who think they are better than we are because their lives are neat, orderly and child-free.
I think it's pertty clear that a there ARE restaurants that don't want kids there, but some folks bring them anyway. That's not my fault, and it's not my problem. I don't like being lumped in with every Child Protective Services horror story, just because I admit my sons have sometimes had tantrums, or whatever. I deal with it, I try to be considerate of others, and teach my kids to do the same. But they ARE kids. I mean, sometimes they don't look where they are going when we walk together in a store, and I have to tell them to move so somebody with a cart can get by. It's not malicious-- but some people's response to the PRESENSE of children is.
I've had people talk loudly about how they are so glad they have never had kids because they're all so horrible, etc. while I'm waiting for my car to be fixed, trying to entertain a toddler with a few toys I brought with me and an ancient issue of People.
You really don't realize how hard it is, sometimes. Being a parent does require sacrifice, but one of those sacrifices should not be enduring the ridicule of others. Tough. Some people are jerks.
Some PARENTS are jerks. You deal with your jerks, and I'll deal with MINE.
Posts: 9293 | Registered: Aug 2000
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You said that " I don't think that there is ever an excuse for bad manners or inappropriate behavior from children... "
Let me relate to you a story. In the grocery store, we once saw a man in a wheelchair. My kids have seen that, and they don't comment on it. But this man was morbidly obese, to the point that I thought it was brave of him to come out in public.
My two older, at the time 7 and 9, knew enough not to say anything. They had the processing power to apply other experience to this and know that it would be rude. My four year old did not, and she promptly pointed and yelled "Why is that man so fat?" This child has always been one we had to ask to speak more quietly because she naturally has a loud voice. So when she yelled it out, people all the way up and down that isle and probably two isles over could hear her. That poor man turned right around and left before any apology could be made. Would an apology have even been enough?
I immediately told her how wrong that was and how it would make the man feel, and then she felt bad. But the damage was done. She learned that lesson at the cost of another.
It isn't that we don't teach our children not to be rude. It is that at very young ages they developmentally lack two things: empathy and an ability to predict consequences. At four, my youngest could predict most familiar situations, but this was unfamiliar and at four, true empathy is not yet in the equation. That isn't to say that children aren't compassionate. Compassion is different from empathy. They simply can't yet tell how a person will feel about something.
One thing I have trained them to do backfired on my in this case: I train them to ask questions and be curious and wonder about the world.
Though I still feel very bad about that man, I wouldn't change my parenting because of it.
Chances are, you engaged in inappropriate and rude behavior as a child that you simply don't remember. And it is pretty likely there was nothing short of abuse your mom could have done about it. Unless you were naturally a fearful or extremely shy child. Those exist. I had one like that.
Even with your backtracking, you have come across as incredibly naive and judgemental about parenting. At what age do you expect to have trained your child to be a perfect little angel?
That said, we are probably more appalled than you to see young children and babies in movie theaters at R and PG-13 movies because we always got a sitter if we wanted to go to those movies. Not only could toddlers be disruptive, but they aren't old enough to distinguish between fantasy and reality. My two oldest have now gone to see LOTR movies in the theaters, but we watched the movies ourselves first to see if they were okay for their ages. And we won't take our now 6 year old to those particularly long movies, because it is too hard for her to sit still for that long. It really isn't fair to her, either, to make her sit through something that should be entertainment and not constrainment for her. So we'll let her see it at home, when she can play on the floor while she watches it.
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quote:I think the majority of Hatrack parents are taking this way too personally. You are the good guys, who are doing your best. It is these seeming multitudes of parents out there (though probably less than we realize, they just seem like more because they are obnoxious) that don't do anything to modify children's unacceptable behaviors at which I believe Mrs. M is targeting her criticism.
No, Mrs. M is targeting all parents except Olivet.
quote:Olivet, I think that you are the exception, bless your heart. The lone exception.
This comment is the only thing that I found especially rude in this thread. And I did find it very rude and tactless. I think that the majority of parents are doing their very best.
I agree with pretty much the entirety of the first post in this thread, but I think that this statement was really going too far. I agree with pretty much everything Icarus said and see my wife and myself in a similar position. Our kids are pretty well behaved, and if they aren't they will be removed from the restaurant/theatre. They will not be taken to inappropriate movies (or movies played at late hours). They will not be taken to restaurants that are expected to be quiet and they will not leave their seats in a restaurant except to go to the washroom. If they break rules or make a lot of unnecessary noise, we will leave or one of us will take the child outside until they are ready to behave. Like Icarus, I also think we are too strict sometimes.
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PSI, I understand. But the quote you used came from a post that also advocated taking rowdy kids out. Losing the privaledge is part of learning.
It just seemed like you were taking that and saying , "Yeah, but you should take them out of they're disruptive." WHICH I HAD ALREADY SAID.
So, it's like this:
"Part of learning how to behave in public is going out in public and teaching them how to act. Punishing misbehaviour and rewarding good behavior."
"Yeah, but you should take them out when they're bad and not inflict them on the rest of us"
"That's what I said"
"You're so defensive!"
I'm just tired of getting looks from people, directed at my kids, for doing nothing other than just BEING. Not to mention be compared to criminals.
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posted
I think the people that are saying most parents do their best are the ones doing their best and therefore expect similar from other parents. I, on the other hand, am painfully aware of my shortcomings and the times when I am lazy and let things slide when I shouldn't, or the times I am ugly to my kids when they deserve better. So I tend to be critical of other parents, because I see it in them too.
Not related to much, just a moment of personal evaluation.
BTW, I feel bad for Mrs. M. in this thread. She just basically said that parents have a responsibility to at least TRY to keep their kids under control, and that she has a problem when they don't try at all. I think that's a fair statement. Why so much argument about that?
Olivet: Confusing of me. That's fair. I really wasn't responding to you or Ic or anything. I just wanted to say that it's fairly simple. Kid acts up, take them out. Maybe I picked the wrong quote to start from, I could have used others that maybe would have made more sense. There were a lot.
posted
*hug* I know what y ou mean, PSI. We try, but sometimes things slip, and we just have to pick up and move on. I've had plenty of "Well, now, THAT wasn't the smartest thing I've ever done" parenting moments.
I probably am being too sensitive. LOL
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Comments I have endured simply by being somewhere public with my kids - not in moments when they were misbehaving, but just when I was pushing a cart down a grocery aisle or etc.
"Good God, I hope you don't have more at home! (I did in fact have one at home, only three were with me)
A mother to her daughter after walking past me and my kids "I better not ever catch you turning out like that."
"Haven't you figured out what cases that yet?"
A nurse starting my IV for my hysterectomy (which was for medical reasons only, severe bleeding) after learning that I had four children "Oh, so this is an emergency hysterectomy then!"
A woman on seeing me with the twins "That's the perfect way to do it, a boy and a girl in one shot and you're through." When I told her I had two older children "Why in the world did you have twins, then?" As if I could control it.
A woman at my daughter's dance studio, when I told her that I had planned on three but we got four because of the twins (I was not complaining, when I tell that story I usually say "But God gave us the bonus plan!") said "You know, my sister was going to have triplets but they aborted one of them, you should have done that."
I could go on. So yeah, like Olivia I'm a little sick of people looking at me and acting as though I've done something wrong by having kids and being a full time Mom.
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quote:BTW, I feel bad for Mrs. M. in this thread. She just basically said that parents have a responsibility to at least TRY to keep their kids under control, and that she has a problem when they don't try at all. I think that's a fair statement. Why so much argument about that?
I don't think it is so much what Mrs. M said as it is the way she said it. For details, see my previous post.
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quote:If we're defensive, it's because we're used to being attacked, sneered at and dismissed as "Breeders" by people who think they are better than we are because their lives are neat, orderly and child-free.
This is sad. Personally, while I don't have kids, I have the utmost respect for parents because I know it is a difficult job.
I taught swimming lessons to children for 5 years. During that time I also taught Adult Beginners classes. I was one of the few instructors willing to take on adult beginners because most of the other instructors couldn't deal with overcoming the more ingrained adult fears. However for me it was a godsend. While I was capable of teaching a child how to swim and qualified from a credential standpoint and I did my best, I simply could not relate to the children in my classes like I could with the adults. Was I the worst instructor there, maybe not, but if I did have children I don't know that I would have wanted me teaching my kids either.
Also, my life isn't anywhere close to neat and orderly if it is child free. If I had kids it might degenerate to squalor and that would be bad for everyone concerned!
posted
I haven't read anything in this thread other than the title, so forgive me if I'm repeating something already said, but:
I don't find movies about children all that interesting and I'm against the eating of children in restaurants. Frankly, I'm amazed that this discussion is even taking place.
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Belle, Olivet, I have kids too and have endured crap comments from people about them (although, to be fair, Belle, your comments received....I don't know what to say about that except I'm sorry, and it sounds like some people didn't ever learn manners when they were kids. Those really are astounding comments). they worst I ever got was a law school professor telling me I shouldn't have had kids because it would interfere with my school work. anyway
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See, I think both sides of this argument are reponding to RL stuff , like what Belle mentioned.
I know that most childless people don't say and do the things we mentioned, and that most parents are at least reasonably reponsible.
Mrs. M is not out of line in wanting adult only places. I heartily agree, actually.
I think the reponse of the parents on the board is more due to little slights we get frequently (and the odd comment about birth control in the water, as if children are a plague) than to the reasonable complaints that people have about wild children in public whose parents ignore them.
As a matter of fact, I think we all, basically agree.
Banna, I would so love to meet you! I didn't mean you, of course, but I do get looks sometimes and assumptions about my intelligence, or level of education (I'm just beginning to realize it may be because I look a little younger than the average parent around here, so they think I didn't go to college or something).
I also have people assume that we're wealthy, because I don't work outside the home. *snicker* I may work parttime when Liam is old enough to go to regular school, but not working now is a sacrifice, financially and otherwise.
So anyway. I think the "argument " here comes more from our baggage than anything we're actually saying. LOL
posted
One of the advantages of living in the alien nation of Utah is that we don't get the responses Belle has described. With three children, we are one of the smaller families.
But in Oregon, that was a whole different story. When I was pregnant with our third, and we had two daughters, I was so often asked "Oh, so are you trying for a boy?"
"No, we just want another child. We don't care what it is."
And then the looks. I have to admit, I look a little young for my age and I chose to start having children when I was 20. Not unusual for the culture I grew up in, but fairly unusual elsewhere. The assumptions I could see in peoples faces were frustrating even when they were kindly.
'Listen, lady, every one of these children were planned and wished for and even if I'm a little frustrated today because it is overwhelming, I am still grateful for these wonderful kids that have opened my eyes to more than I ever could imagine. And no, I was not a teen and yes, I was married.'
I stopped myself from posting a few minutes ago in response to Rohan's defensiveness comment (and Suneun's assertion that there is no evidence that any of is is not, in fact, a lousy parent) because I didn't know how to say what I wanted to without either appearing more defensive, or displaying more vulnerability. But you've pretty much said it for me.
posted
I know, the comments I've gotten are pretty bad, I think it's because my last three are so close together.
They're nothing compared to the comments that some of my friends with large families have gotten. A close friend has six, and she was told by someone in public that having so many children should be against the law.
The mother of nine was told that she obviously didn't love her children, or she wouldn't have had so many because she can't pay enough attention to them.
Both of them have been asked questions similar to "Are you on some weird religion that doesn't believe in birth control?"
Or, the many, many times they get asked if they are Catholic.
Amka, I got the same response when people knew I had two girls and I was pregnant.
I did know someone who had seven children because the first six were boys and she wanted a girl. She admitted that "We would have stopped at three, if one of them had been a girl."
I've always wondered how that makes boy #4,5,and 6 feel.
[ January 29, 2004, 12:37 PM: Message edited by: Belle ]
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Hehe. I do belong to one of those wierd religions.
I do have to say there was a dissenting remark: The doctor who delivered my children in Oregon told me that I should have 12 kids.
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Three, four kids. *ppfff* Y'all are wimps. Real families have the kids outnumber the parents three to one.
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Never of people saying stuff like that to people. How rude. What's it to them if folks want to have a lot of kids? arg how rude Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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My friend Kathy and I had lunch at IHOP with my boys and her one son. She was pregnant at the time, and her son had just turned two. Liam had recently turned three, and become quite manageable, but I was still nervous about taking them out without Daddy.
Anyway, it went well. So, we decided to go across the street to BJ's, which is kind of like Costco or Sam's. Eric ran out into the parkinglot ahead of her and I screamed and ran for him dragging my boys by the hands. Eric had always stuck close to her, so she didn't think to grab hold of him before turning to shut her car door.
Things got worse inside. Her little Eric began to bawl and it was pure temper tantrum. He hadn't done that before and Kathy was shocked and appalled. She'd seen my Liam have a hissy before, but had just assumed he was a bad seed, I guess.
Anyway, we had to leave. Once we got outside and had everyone packed away in their carseats (Eric fought and kicked and cried the whole time), she just started crying. I gave her a big hug.
"What's wrong with him?"
"Honey, he's two. Tempertantrums are normal for his age, and you'll learn how to deal with it. It will happen sometimes when you least expect it, but for the most part when he's tired or over stimulated. You'll deal with it, and he'll grow out of it."
"But how do you do it with TWO?" Did I mention she was pregnant?
"I have a lot of help, and I didn't go out much with them until this phase was over. But I'm here for you, hon."
That day was rough, especially for her, but it meant a lot to us both. I think it also slightly raised her estimation of my parenting skills. And I was thrilled to be able to help her, and offer comfort and advice after her first experience enduring those disapproving looks.
Posts: 9293 | Registered: Aug 2000
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I think we parents understand each other, at least, and agree that kids have to be disciplined to behave well.
AND, Kid-free places would be a boon to us parents, too, when we do get the odd night out.
Amka, you probably SHOULD have 12-- I'm sure you could love them all sufficiently (winks at Belle's friend's rude stranger).
My doctor actually tried to talk me into having more, too. LOL
I used to go out with my two, and my neighbor's two as well. Sometimes nieces and nephews, too. It was a hoot, since they are mostly all blonde and really look a lot alike. I got to say funny things like "Head 'em up and move 'em out!" when I gathered them up at the playground, or the toystore or whatever. Posts: 9293 | Registered: Aug 2000
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I remember a stage when my youngest was still just a baby, and my others were quite young. Whenever I had my hands full and needed them to follow my I'd call "Come on little ducklings." And they'd fall into single file behind me.
It was so cute.
And now my youngest is older than that and puberty approacheth.
As a non-parent, there is a definite difference between "kids" in general and a specific child.
I was a bit annoyed by the mother at Steve's family gathering that dumped a baby on me while she went to go eat. It wasn't that she dumped the baby for me to take care of while she was eating that was the problem. The problem was that once she was done, she didn't at any point ask if I was ok or offer to take the kid back. I would have made the offer if I had given someone a puppy to hold. She also assumed I have innate child-rearing abilities that are entirely not there.
On the other hand one of my good friends from college has one son, with another child on the way. Ian is a delight. With him I've never had the "icky baby" reaction. Yes he's a normal kid, yes he screams and cries like any other kid, but I genuinely enjoy interacting with him too. Yes she gets frazzled watching him and calls me sometimes. I can't directly relate but I can give her sympathy.
Sometimes I've had to struggle not to laugh, since hearing her describe the poopy diaper explosion and subsequent poop flinging in the playpen when he was supposed to be down for a nap was pretty funny. But I wasn't there having to clean it up either. It a difficult job and one that I have not yet chosen to undertake. With this particular friend I wish I could be there geographically to occasionally take the boy off of her hands for a bit so that she can have a break.
In the first case it was a person I don't know that well and I felt uncomfortable around. In the second case it is a person who I do know well and do know is trying their hardest.
Why do I have this dichotomy of reactions? I'm not sure. Even while I have watched Ian on occasion and enjoyed playing with him, it gives me no desire for a child of my own. I know have no "maternal" instinct at all. This may be why I have more respect for those who do.
posted
My standard response to a mom who says "How do you manage with four?" is
"Who says I do?"
I get by as best as I can. I'm certainly no model parent, but I try.
Unfortuantely there is still a large segment of the population that doesn't respect at-home mothers and doesn't understand what a difficult job it is.
I've never watched a daytime soap opera in my life. I get my hackles up when people presume I don't make a significant contribution, or that I'm not worth as much since I quit working.
The worst part is I do this to myself. *sigh* I struggle with my self-esteem because it's been so ingrained in me that women should be independent money earners that I have trouble accepting myself.
But, that's what my therapist is for, I guess. Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
I recently had my second child, and when asked how many I wanted I said "six or seven". People would actually say to me "No you don't".
Well, thanks, I was having trouble figuring out what I really meant.
THEN I had my tubes tied, but not because I didn't want any more kids. But people say, "Told ya, two was enough. I was right."
I try to say that I still want more kids, and they ask why I was sterilized. I don't feel like I should have to explain all the medical reasons for my surgery. Suffice it to say that I would LOVE to adopt some kids.
Posts: 6367 | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
People need to just chill... Taking care of kids is a fulltime unpaid harder than any job in the whole entire universe and whoever says a person isn't contributing because they are not working some nine to five job or wearing a powersuit should be shot out of a cannon into cold water. So do not feel bad...
People should also not tell me to have kids when I don't even have a mate and haven't even kissed yet or say, "You'll change your mind one day." When I have no savings. Which is sad...
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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