quote:Originally posted by LeoJ: Hey P we should start our own topic, what do you think will be controvertial and have many replies, and have people arguing?
Uhm... Okay, though, actually, I don't like to argue. (I just can't keep my mouth shut.)
Insult: "What makes it good is the boredom of my job."
P.S.: I'll be back in two hours.
Posts: 262 | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
Because, of course, America has only one Bush, the One True Bush. And a dozen helper shrubberies.
Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Reticulum: This is something that has always purplexed me to the umpth degree.
Because it perplexes you, it puts you in the minority that isn't part of the 'arrogant americans'.
For starters, we aren't a polite society. Common day to day interactions with people prove this statement. Many people are completely focused on themselves or self image; or trying to destroy someone elses image, rather than rising above it.
I'm jaded but this is my opinion.
Posts: 189 | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote:Originally posted by LeoJ: America and its Bush seems to be a big topic nowadays
Ha ha, I like that formulation.
'Nowadays'... you mean the past five years? If one manages not to take that stuff to serious, it can be a lot of fun. But we have a problem: there doesn't seem to be a 'good guy' in this Soap.
@the so-called insult (*sigh*): your phrase sounds as if the only reason why you like to read the posts in this forum is your boredom! (I don't BELIEVE that, no way, so I'm not really insulted... I was just kidding )
Posts: 262 | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Reticulum: We may not have more freedoms then anyone else now...
With freedom also comes the freedom to do nothing, and to do bad things. Yes, there are consequences, but rather than pre-emptive striking you have cleanup. Which is a good example of what I think about wire-tapping and terrorism. If you are pre-emptive in your detection or attacks on terrorism (Think Minority Report) you lose some freedom, whether or not it is noticed at large you do lose some. Any loss of freedom is not worth the security gained, because you devalue freedom and whoever is enforcing this 'security' can remove even more freedom at the appeal of more security.
Back to the real topic at hand: American's are truely viewed as arrogant because they pay much less attention to what is going on outside of the states. We are a (multi)media driven society, and if it makes loud noises and pretty colors we will watch.
To sum up: We are viewed as arrogant, because we are.
Posts: 189 | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Pinky: 'Nowadays'... you mean the past five years? If one manages not to take that stuff to serious, it can be a lot of fun. But we have a problem: there doesn't seem to be a 'good guy' in this Soap.
@the so-called insult (*sigh*): your phrase sounds as if the only reason why you like to read the posts in this forum is your boredom! (I don't BELIEVE that, no way, so I'm not really insulted... I was just kidding )
Well I mean the first election, fraud, then Iraq, etc..., then he goes on and says they are making progress in the war, and that they´ll succeed. Anyways what i mean new is now the Iran nuclear problem, simple it wants to become another north korea.
Bush has as much bush in brains as he has in his head.
Pink i mean i know and i dont know, you tell me.
Offtopic
----- I want to read something similar to the Ender Shadow series, what do you recommend? -----
1 hour and its friday night whooohoo
Posts: 56 | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by dantesparadigm: Hey, if people in other countries don't like America, then they can get out.
i know i'm coming into this thread really late, but i just wanted to say that this made me laugh obnoxiously loud and everyone in my office looked at me funny. gah, thats funny.
Posts: 2596 | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Pinky: I would rather say there's a lot of fear and anger underneath. We're almost powerless to stop the U.S. government, even when its 'projects' affect us. The power of the U.S. Army, the will to use it AND the will to "forget" or ignore the parts of history one can't seriously be proud of, can be pretty frightening. Not to mention that your government signed but doesn't ratify the Kyoto- Protocol. That's frightening, too. Don't you think?
Yes, it's much better to sign and ratify Kyoto, but then fail to comply like Europe
quote:Originally posted by dantesparadigm: Hey, if people in other countries don't like America, then they can get out.
i know i'm coming into this thread really late, but i just wanted to say that this made me laugh obnoxiously loud and everyone in my office looked at me funny. gah, thats funny.
hahahahaha
and...
that reminded me i saw a movie or was it a comedy show, that an imitation of Bush said, God Bless America and no place else....
posted
Wow, some real discussion going on in here. Why don't you kids go play on the gamer forums, I'll even give you a link: http://boards.gamefaqs.com/gfaqs/Posts: 189 | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
I'm not sure I'd call this topic a real discussion. There are just too many blatant misconceptions being thrown about to really say that there is anything useful going on here.
Posts: 2437 | Registered: Apr 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Chreese Sroup: Wow, some real discussion going on in here. Why don't you kids go play on the gamer forums, I'll even give you a link: http://boards.gamefaqs.com/gfaqs/
And what do you think why I sent an Email to LeoJ, huh?
Posts: 262 | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
I sort of agree with ricree. I think the discussion ended two or three pages ago. And not all threads live a long life. It's not a failure when a thread ends, and attempting to artificially resuscitate a thread is its own kind of sad.
Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
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quote:Originally posted by starLisa: It's exactly jealousy. Or to be more precise, envy. People who haven't achieved what we've achieved can either look at themselves and ask the difficult question of why, or they can just dislike us. There's no question which one is easier to do.
I think this *may* be an example of why some people think the way they do about Americans.
There's this notion that America has achieved a significant amount more than any other free nation in the world. The rest of the free world doesn't really agree with this idea.
Unless we're talking about military size, I suppose.
HA! This is a very, very ignorant statement. Tp say that besides military size, we have not accomplished anything to be jelous of, is a very ignorant statement. In a little under 120+ years(when America came out of isolationism), we have accomplished more things in such a short amount of time then any nation has... ever.
First, yes our military is vastly powerful. Not just it's size, but its effectinveness. No nation in the world comes close to equaling America's power projections around the globe. Nations and cultures that have been around centuries, have been outdone by a nation that has only been around for a fraction of their time.
Second. Our economy. America is the second "richest" nation in the world, in terms of per capita income. (After luxenbourg, which has a very small population). We make more money then any of our predecessors, and they have been around for hundreds of years. Our economy, is the largest in the world, by about 4 trillion dollars, and none other in the world even comes close. Our dollar, is the dominate world currency, more often used in world transactions then the Euro, and Pound combined. Our dollar is accepted in most countries.
Third. Our culture. Yes, it is a mix of other ones, but today, it has become uniquely our own. Because of our large economy, we are able to make as many cultural items as we want, and get them anywhere in the world. The movie industry is owned and controlled by Americans, as almost every mainstream movie comes from America, or one of companies.
So there, there is what the rest of the free world might be jelous of. Our nation has been able to become dominant in almost every single category one could imagine. This is what the rest of the free world might look at and wonder why they have not accomplished it.
Posts: 2121 | Registered: Oct 2005
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This was the best I could do for now (yes, I'm playing the tired new mom card ). And I'm not saying that an armed populace will reduce crime, I am pointing out that rigid gun control that forces upstanding citizens to surrender their legally-owned firearms does not reduce crime whatsoever.
On the other hand, the gun nuts who want assault weapons to be legal and insist on making gun ownership an all-or-nothing proposition make it very difficult to allow normal weapons.
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posted
Reticulum, those don't sound like things to be jealous of, but they do sound like things to resent. So it seems to me like you're making your opposition's case.
Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Reticulum: Why are Americans viewed as arrogant self loving jerks?
quote:Originally posted by Reticulum: HA! This is a very, very ignorant statement. Tp say that besides military size, we have not accomplished anything to be jelous of, is a very ignorant statement. In a little under 120+ years(when America came out of isolationism), we have accomplished more things in such a short amount of time then any nation has... ever.
First, yes our military is vastly powerful. Not just it's size, but its effectinveness. No nation in the world comes close to equaling America's power projections around the globe. Nations and cultures that have been around centuries, have been outdone by a nation that has only been around for a fraction of their time.
Second. Our economy. America is the second "richest" nation in the world, in terms of per capita income. (After luxenbourg, which has a very small population). We make more money then any of our predecessors, and they have been around for hundreds of years. Our economy, is the largest in the world, by about 4 trillion dollars, and none other in the world even comes close. Our dollar, is the dominate world currency, more often used in world transactions then the Euro, and Pound combined. Our dollar is accepted in most countries.
Third. Our culture. Yes, it is a mix of other ones, but today, it has become uniquely our own. Because of our large economy, we are able to make as many cultural items as we want, and get them anywhere in the world. The movie industry is owned and controlled by Americans, as almost every mainstream movie comes from America, or one of companies.
So there, there is what the rest of the free world might be jelous of. Our nation has been able to become dominant in almost every single category one could imagine. This is what the rest of the free world might look at and wonder why they have not accomplished it.
Regardless of whether you agree with it or not, this statement seems arrogant, self-loving, and jerky.
Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
It may sound like it, but not a single thing in their isn't true. All of it is true. And that's part of it. We have a lot of things that we can brag about, and many other nations can talk about the past, and things they once had, and accomplished.
So, yeah, it does sound jerky...Sorry.
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posted
I think, Reticulum, that you and I probably would not agree very much on what the priorities of our government should be.
Also, to make it clear, I am rather happy living in the United States. This is a different topic (yes, I know this thread needs another!) but I always find it odd that people suppose someone pointing out a fault in America makes that person anti-American or "against" America.
Posts: 367 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
You don't need to apologize to me--I am not offended. I am simply pointing out a possible answer to what was, originally, your question.
Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Chungwa: I think, Reticulum, that you and I probably would not agree very much on what the priorities of our government should be.
quote:First, yes our military is vastly powerful. Not just it's size, but its effectinveness. No nation in the world comes close to equaling America's power projections around the globe. Nations and cultures that have been around centuries, have been outdone by a nation that has only been around for a fraction of their time.
Your last sentence would only be true if the projection of large-scale military might were still a goal of these other nations. Additionally, you're assuming: (1) that this is a worthy goal, and (2) that projections of American military power (and here I include semi-covert projections) are inherently praiseworthy.
The latter at least is certainly not true. The people who decry various American military operations are not doing so because they're jealous of America's ability to enforce its will on the rest of the world, they're doing so because they think these acts are wrong.
For example, as a Canadian, I am frankly afraid of America by accident of geography. I'm not jealous of America's might; rather, I'm fearful that it might one day be turned against us if your country's voracious appetite for our oil and water doesn't begin to abate. Which brings me to my next point...
quote:Second. Our economy. America is the second "richest" nation in the world, in terms of per capita income. (After luxenbourg, which has a very small population). We make more money then any of our predecessors, and they have been around for hundreds of years. Our economy, is the largest in the world, by about 4 trillion dollars, and none other in the world even comes close. Our dollar, is the dominate world currency, more often used in world transactions then the Euro, and Pound combined. Our dollar is accepted in most countries.
In other words, "you're polluting the environment for the rest of us." To the extent that this is true, it shouldn't surprise you that this is not universally appreciated.
You're also assuming that the pursuit of wealth is in and of itself a worthy goal. This is by no means true simply because you say so.
Finally, it's all well and good to rave about how rich you are, but you're overlooking the fact that poverty is a significant problem in the U.S., and will continue to be so as the gap between the rich and the poor continues to widen.
quote:Third. Our culture. Yes, it is a mix of other ones, but today, it has become uniquely our own. Because of our large economy, we are able to make as many cultural items as we want, and get them anywhere in the world. The movie industry is owned and controlled by Americans, as almost every mainstream movie comes from America, or one of companies.
Define "mainstream." Have you ever lived outside America? Outside the Western world? Do you actually have the faintest clue what sorts of movies play in theatres in, say, Italy? Or Russia? Saying "we control the movie industry" from your seat in America is laughable.
Of course, there is a kernel of truth to your statement, as indicated by the global reach of franchises like McDonald's. However, you're making a mistake if you think this makes people in other countries jealous of your culture. Rather, your lack of respect for their cultures is what makes them angry.
Patriotism is all well and good. Nationalism is something to be concerned about. So yes, you are part of the problem.
Posts: 10886 | Registered: Feb 2000
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posted
I don't know. He does have a point there. Americans Do control the movie industry. Almost of the top-rated, and top grossing movies of all time, are American. They may not be seen halfway across the world, but they certainly have a larger extent, then any other nations movie industries.
China, India, and other nations are quickly becoming more pulluted then the U.S. in twenty years or so, China may be the nation that the rest of the world is angry at to stop polluting so much, so saying that the U.S. is polluting the environoment for everyone else is a very unfiar statement.
And yes, poverty is a problem in nearly ALL parts of the world, not just the U.S. It kind of sounded like you made it seem that U.S. was the only nation with poverty. It has a significgant less amount then most countries of the word. But... poverty is still prevelant
There military isn't really something to be jelous of.
Posts: 96 | Registered: Feb 2006
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Because of the size of our military, our economy and the pervasiveness of our culture, it is very hard for other countries to stand up to the US. They see us as imposing our culture, our economic structure and our military on them (and whether or not that is our intention, that is what we do) and there's nothing they can do. If they try to stand up to us, we either invade, or impose sanctions or let Hollywood take over for us. Or all of the above. Why shouldn't they resent us for that?
Also, just having a big economy doesn't mean squat when there's so much income inequality. According to UNDP, the US has one of the highest GINI coefficients (measure of income inequality, with low numbers indicating low inequality) of countries with high Human Development Indexes. And since the other high HDI countries with higher inequality than the US include Hong Kong, Singapore, Mexico and Argentina. That's not something to brag about. There are even lesser developed countries such as Ghana, Georgia, and Rwanda that have lower inequality than the US (of course, that's probably because they're all poor...).
Posts: 959 | Registered: Jan 2002
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quote:Second. Our economy. America is the second "richest" nation in the world, in terms of per capita income. (After luxenbourg, which has a very small population). We make more money then any of our predecessors, and they have been around for hundreds of years. Our economy, is the largest in the world, by about 4 trillion dollars, and none other in the world even comes close. Our dollar, is the dominate world currency, more often used in world transactions then the Euro, and Pound combined. Our dollar is accepted in most countries.
quote:
[QB][QUOTE] In other words, "you're polluting the environment for the rest of us." To the extent that this is true, it shouldn't surprise you that this is not universally appreciated.
You're also assuming that the pursuit of wealth is in and of itself a worthy goal. This is by no means true simply because you say so.
Finally, it's all well and good to rave about how rich you are, but you're overlooking the fact that poverty is a significant problem in the U.S., and will continue to be so as the gap between the rich and the poor continues to widen. [QB]
Well, to start our economy, no matter how arrogant this may sound, is vastly important to the world. The rest of the world complains that we watse to many resources, and eat to much. However, if we STOPPED wasting resources so much, what do you think would happen to the rest of the other nation's economies? Most would plummit, because to a lot of them, America is a BIG buyer. It does not make sense to complain about our wasting of resources, for, if we stopped, the world would be in a pretty interesting situation.
It actually HELPS the rest of the world. With our wasting, you in turn, become richer. On a sidenote, as for you, you explicitly said that pursuing wealth is not a worthy goal. I do in fact believe that increasing standards of living are a worthy thing to strive for. If we stopped wasting your guys' resources, and became self supplying, the world's economy would take bad turn. Many nations would be thrown into poverty, and another great depression would begin. Would the world recover if we didn't? Yes, it would. Could it go on without us? Yes, it could. Would it hurt the world? Yes, it would.
So, in conclusion, however much poverty we might have; however bad it might be to want to be wealthy; we are needed among the world. Our economy is drasticly important.
Yes, that was a very arrogant statement/speech, you don't have to tell me. JUs because it is arrogant, doesn't it isn't true.
Posts: 2121 | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by starLisa: It's exactly jealousy. Or to be more precise, envy. People who haven't achieved what we've achieved can either look at themselves and ask the difficult question of why, or they can just dislike us. There's no question which one is easier to do.
I think this *may* be an example of why some people think the way they do about Americans.
There's this notion that America has achieved a significant amount more than any other free nation in the world. The rest of the free world doesn't really agree with this idea.
Unless we're talking about military size, I suppose.
HA! This is a very, very ignorant statement. Tp say that besides military size, we have not accomplished anything to be jelous of, is a very ignorant statement. In a little under 120+ years(when America came out of isolationism), we have accomplished more things in such a short amount of time then any nation has... ever.
First, yes our military is vastly powerful. Not just it's size, but its effectinveness. No nation in the world comes close to equaling America's power projections around the globe. Nations and cultures that have been around centuries, have been outdone by a nation that has only been around for a fraction of their time.
Second. Our economy. America is the second "richest" nation in the world, in terms of per capita income. (After luxenbourg, which has a very small population). We make more money then any of our predecessors, and they have been around for hundreds of years. Our economy, is the largest in the world, by about 4 trillion dollars, and none other in the world even comes close. Our dollar, is the dominate world currency, more often used in world transactions then the Euro, and Pound combined. Our dollar is accepted in most countries.
Third. Our culture. Yes, it is a mix of other ones, but today, it has become uniquely our own. Because of our large economy, we are able to make as many cultural items as we want, and get them anywhere in the world. The movie industry is owned and controlled by Americans, as almost every mainstream movie comes from America, or one of companies.
So there, there is what the rest of the free world might be jelous of. Our nation has been able to become dominant in almost every single category one could imagine. This is what the rest of the free world might look at and wonder why they have not accomplished it.
quote:Originally posted by Reticulum: On a sidenote, as for you, you explicitly said that pursuing wealth is not a worthy goal. I do in fact believe that increasing standards of living are a worthy thing to strive for.
I certainly agree that increasing standards of living are a worthy goal. However, I don't necessarily agree that increasing wealth is the best or only way to do so, let alone a successful way. If it were successful than why are the poor getting poorer and therefore their standards of living getting worse? After all the world economy is larger than it's ever been, so things should be better for everyone, right? I wish (although, if that were true, I'd have to find a new career...)
Posts: 959 | Registered: Jan 2002
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posted
Grim, I was very careful with my qualifiers. I don't think I actually said some of the statements you -- or Reticulum -- are attributing to me. For example, I did not say "poverty is an exclusively (or even mostly) American problem," nor did I say, contrary to Reticulum's post, that the pursuit of wealth is not (ever) a worthy goal.
Reticulum, I'm not denying that the U.S. economy is big or important. What I'm saying is: "don't expect adulation from the rest of the world." You do seem to expect that adulation, or at least recognition, when there's no particular reason to merit it. So America is big and powerful. So what? That doesn't make it "great," let alone "the greatest nation on earth." You should probably define "great" before you go off making such statements.
Posts: 10886 | Registered: Feb 2000
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posted
Even though poverty is prevelent (sp?) in the U.S., most in poverty still have a fairly high standard of living. Most have luxuries and amentities that a great deal of the rest of the world in poverty... don't
Posts: 2121 | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
If you'll re-read my post, you'll see that I'm not actually doing that. I'd be a raving hypocrite if I did, since Canadians have the highest per-capita environmental footprint in the world -- and not just because it's cold here.
Posts: 10886 | Registered: Feb 2000
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posted
Hmmm, here is something interesting. Perhaps we are viewed such as we are now, because we are so numerous and prevelent among the world. Most other nations among the world with large populations are to poor, or have a small percentage of people who are rich enough to travel the world like we do.
What think? Nations like China, Mexico, India, Russia, and many other countries with populations over 100 Million have a lot of poverty and unemployment, thus limiting their ability to be shown to the rest of the world.
Posts: 2121 | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by pH: I kind of wonder if maybe the pride in Europe is similar to the pride that people from Asia take in being Vietnamese or Chinese. I really don't know because I'm too much of a combination of things to really pick out one part of my ancestry to take pride in, aside from being Protestant.
Most Europeans are pride of their countries. Especially French, Italian, Spanish and Suisse, I think. 95% of the German who say that they are "proud to be German" are either idiotic Neo-Nazis or they are considered to be ignorant. You know, in Europe, 50years are not a long time. It might probably take at least another two or three generations until there is a kind of national pride without the shadow of WWII. By now, we help ourselves with regional pride. I am not proud to be German, but I'm proud of my Hessian origins. If someone in the U.S. asked me, where I come from, the first thing I said would probably be: I come from Europe.
The people I met in Berlin were pretty arrogant about being German.
But you guys have some sweet castles, so that's cool. I have a thing for castles.
As for America not being a "polite" society, that's DEFINITELY regional. The grand majority of the people around here (at least, the ones who don't work at the Walgreens pharmacy), are incredibly polite. But this is, after all, Louisiana. I think the people here are MUCH nicer than the people I run into in Florida.
quote:Originally posted by Reticulum: Hmmm, here is something interesting. Perhaps we are viewed such as we are now, because we are so numerous and prevelent among the world. Most other nations among the world with large populations are to poor, or have a small percentage of people who are rich enough to travel the world like we do.
What think? Nations like China, Mexico, India, Russia, and many other countries with populations over 100 Million have a lot of poverty and unemployment, thus limiting their ability to be shown to the rest of the world.
I think I made this point on page one. Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
Out of interest -- having read this thread and his others closely -- I'm curious: why haven't other people written LeoJ off as a troll yet?
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
Yes, the effect of tourism on America's image was discussed earlier in the thread. I think there's some merit to the notion.
Reticulum, before you thump your chest and shout about how great America is and how we're all jealous of your greatness, it would be a good idea to define "greatness." Many of the things that you point to as examples of American greatness are not universally accepted as great even within America. Having lots of power or influence is not necessarily equivalent to "greatness," depending on how you define the term.
Posts: 10886 | Registered: Feb 2000
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posted
And before you start the flag burning and start rallies about how much America sucks, why don't YOU define greatness?
And yes, I know you will have a response with something like: "I don't hate America, I just don't like a lot of your guy's policies, and the things your people do and say."
Plus, can you honestly say were aren't among some of the best countries?
Posts: 2121 | Registered: Oct 2005
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