quote:Originally posted by Reticulum: And before you start the flag burning and start rallies about how much America sucks, why don't YOU define greatness?
I haven't done that. You're the one who made the initial claim; I haven't even said that I don't think America is great. I've simply offered some reasons why it might be possible not to think so.
You started off with the nationalistic chest-thumping, without defining what it is you're actually talking about.
quote:Originally posted by Reticulum: And yes, I know you will have a response with something like: "I don't hate America, I just don't like a lot of your guy's policies, and the things your people do and say."
Not even that, at this point in the discussion. And as long as you continue to exemplify the trend you asked about in your original post, I'll probably continue to be uninterested in discussing what my opinion of America actually is -- not that it could be summed up in such a sound bite anyway.
quote:Originally posted by Reticulum: Plus, can you honestly say were aren't among some of the best countries?
There you go again, making a positive claim without defining your terms. What does "best" mean in this context? Highest quality of life? Most powerful? Most influential? All of the above?
Posts: 10886 | Registered: Feb 2000
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quote:Originally posted by Reticulum: And before you start the flag burning and start rallies about how much America sucks, why don't YOU define greatness?
And yes, I know you will have a response with something like: "I don't hate America, I just don't like a lot of your guy's policies, and the things your people do and say."
Plus, can you honestly say were aren't among some of the best countries?
Dear Lord, Reticulum. You need to go off somewhere and not come back here until you can actually create an intelligent response to someone.
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FWIW, I definitely think we are among the better ones. But I don't think I have to be arrogant in order to somehoe prove my belief--and the original topic was not "Is America the best?" but "Why are Americans vewied as arrogant . . . ?" (Not that there's anything wrong with thread drift, but if it feels like you are posting at cross purposes, it may be because some people are still addressing the original issue and some are addressing a different one.
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Reticulum, just chill out a bit. You started off asking why Americans are seen as arrogant jerks, but when anyone suggests that it's possible that America might not be the most good, just, noble, powerful, influential, or happy nation in the history of the universe, you take offence.
My point is: It's possible for a nation to be great (for reference, I'm basically defining great as "a powerful force for goodness, justice, and happiness in the world") without running around shouting about how great you are all the time. Such greatness doesn't need to be advertised. Relax. Posts: 10886 | Registered: Feb 2000
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Greatness: A nation that has universal suffrage, and excessive freedoms for all. A good education, with a high HDI, and a large portion of the population that can travel abroad. Also includes a large and flexible economy in which many products are available, and money can be put to various uses in the government and civilian matters. These nations will have a very large influence over the rest of the world, and have its large descicions generally have world impacting outcomes. It can or can not have the ability to defend itself from external/internal threats, and defend/force its wants overseas. The SoL should be quite high, with plently of oportunity for the educated to have a high standard of living. MUST have enumerable freedoms.
Britain, USA, Canada, Germany, and France, are all nations that completely or partly qualify for this.
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There. Now everyone knows what you mean when you say that America is great. Thanks for supplying your definition. Posts: 10886 | Registered: Feb 2000
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Other countries are going to think what they want about America. It's the equivilant of the foriegn exchange student not liking you in high school. Winning the respect of your peers is always a nice goal, but it doesn't mean we dance to their tune just to make them happy.
I don't like a lot of the stuff that America as a nation does, and as a citizen, I do much of what is available to me to try and make the nation more into something I can be proud of. At the end of the day, it's impossible to make everyone happy. Half the world wants us to keep our noses out of their business, the other half says we aren't doing enough. Some of these are valid complaints, some aren't.
But at the end of the day we do much that is good for the world, whether they appreciate it, recognize it, or not. I don't expect a thank you card from the rest of the world for what we do, in fact I'd be surprised if the average European was even aware of the force for good that America is in the world.
I used to really care what Europe thought of us. Not so much other nations, because their cultures are so far removed from our own that our values systems are too different to really be on the same page for a lot of stuff. But Europe is our older brother, and you always want your older brother to be proud of you. But now I realize they'll never really be happy, not until we turn America into a carbon copy of Europe probably. And I believe they are far too willing to let anecdotes on American citizens and stereotypes to influence their thinking (not that we aren't guilty of the same thing, but they aren't any better). If I were to judge all of Europe based entirely on stuffy French people, I'd say all of Europe was filled with arrogant, stuffy, self centered, prigs.
I think Americans, AVERAGE Americans, as a whole are perfectly nice and polite people. I think it depends greatly on where the person is from, what region, what city, rural or urban (or suburban). But isn't that true of any country?
Reticulum -
Turn a blind eye. You'll never make them all happy, and it really isn't your job to. Europeans weren't any better when they were in control (for example, Britain, Germany, Italy, France), though they have done a FANTASTIC job of sweeping their bloody mistakes under the rug while harping on ours. The people who invented (well, other than Messopotamians) empire and colonization of "lesser" nations have the gall to call us imperialists and war mongers? I would ask them to see to their own wounds, for they are in fact practitioners. I think they should be ashamed.
Edit to add: Alright, the "carbon copy of Europe" thing was a bit of hyperbole, but I stand by my point that they will never be truly satisfied, either until we totally change our ways, or until we fall from power.
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You know, Lyrhawn, that is the most valid point I have ever seen anyone on this thread say. That is superb advice, and the simplest things I can say are, thank you, I am taking your advice, and you are right. Posts: 2121 | Registered: Oct 2005
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I would modify Lyrhawn's point by saying we SHOULD listen to other POVs (including other nations). They may be wrong, they may have ulterior motives for presenting their criticism... But it might still be correct criticism we ought to heed.
It's the arrogant to dismiss all input (:turn a blind eye") from another because you feel you have divined their deeper motives. It is comfortable to do so, I admit... But also somewhat cowardly. It isn't arrogant to listen, and decide to disagree.
And that's independent of whether others call you arrogant.
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Hollywood influence... Yeah, that's something to be proud of. Hollywood films make everyone around the world think that everyone in the US is loose and slutty and drinks all the time and does drugs, so yeah, that's what makes the US great...
Here's an interesting bit of info on a comparison between Hollywood and Bollywood, including money earned According to the Newsweek thingy that I linked to, for those who are too lazy to go there themselves, here's the scoop (for the year 2002).
Films produced: Bollywood 1013 vs Hollywood 739 Tickets sold: Bollywood 3.6 b vs Hollywood 2.6 b Annual growth rate: Bollywood 12.6% vs Hollywood 5.6%
Its the revenues where Bollywood sucks: Bollywood $1.3 b vs Hollywood $51 b
Please note that the above is Bollywood only - this does not include the sizeable film industries in Tamil Nadu (around 150 a year) or Andhra Pradesh (200-250 films per year).
And I've still seen nothing upwind that proves that the US is even Great, never mind The Greatest.
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quote:Well, to start our economy, no matter how arrogant this may sound, is vastly important to the world. The rest of the world complains that we watse to many resources, and eat to much. However, if we STOPPED wasting resources so much, what do you think would happen to the rest of the other nation's economies? Most would plummit, because to a lot of them, America is a BIG buyer. It does not make sense to complain about our wasting of resources, for, if we stopped, the world would be in a pretty interesting situation.
Umm actually, that's just the Broken Window fallacy. Waste or accidents aren't actually a boon to the economy, they actually represent lost productive capacity that could have been utilised in creating or providing additionaly goods and services.
Now when you have a situation where the entire world has had to alter its economies structurally in order to provide for the waste of resources by the american people, this is actually represents a huge loss to the world in economic terms. Some of this productive capacity (and in the long run, all) would have created downward pressure on prices and (hopefully) raised the standard of living, rather than being used to compensating for the tendency of the american people to waste.
quote:Originally posted by Risuena: And even in that wiki link Reticulum posted, it links the presidential/congressional system to the Roman Empire, which if I remember my history classes correctly, came long before the US. In other words, the US didn't invent it - modify it, sure.
Huh... the Congressional/Presidential/Judicial branch system of Government in America is based on the Iroquois Confederacy. Even the U.S. Symbol, an Eagle holding Arrows is based on The Iroquois Confederacy. The ideal of personal freedom and equality is also based in The Iroquios Confederacy as well as other native cultures.
If you look seriously the Roman Senate and the American Senate have well almost nothing in common.
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quote:Originally posted by Icarus: Lyrhawn, been watching 1776 lately?
You have no idea. I live for that movie. I just wish there was a soundtrack for it, I only have the Broadway production soundtrack.
quote:Originally posted by Bokonon: I would modify Lyrhawn's point by saying we SHOULD listen to other POVs (including other nations). They may be wrong, they may have ulterior motives for presenting their criticism... But it might still be correct criticism we ought to heed.
It's the arrogant to dismiss all input (:turn a blind eye") from another because you feel you have divined their deeper motives. It is comfortable to do so, I admit... But also somewhat cowardly. It isn't arrogant to listen, and decide to disagree.
And that's independent of whether others call you arrogant.
-Bok
I agree to that, and really should have put that in my original post. I never ruled out the idea that we need to listen to other people, my point was that we shouldn't allow ourselves to be ruled by their popular opinion, or let our actions be guided by it. We shouldn't let it bother us. But there's no problem with at least listening to them, some of the time they have valid criticisms.
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quote:Originally posted by mimsies: If you look seriously the Roman Senate and the American Senate have well almost nothing in common.
Depends on which Roman Senate you are talking about. The senate of the Roman Republic, not the Roman Empire, had a lot of similarities, but the Roman Senate was never as balanced in power as the American Senate is with the other branches. The R. Senate of the Republic was 10 times as strong as ours, and the R. Senate of the Empire was 10 times weaker.
Romans were never really good at sharing.
Well, unless it was a bath house.
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quote:Originally posted by starLisa: It's exactly jealousy. Or to be more precise, envy. People who haven't achieved what we've achieved can either look at themselves and ask the difficult question of why, or they can just dislike us. There's no question which one is easier to do.
I think this *may* be an example of why some people think the way they do about Americans.
There's this notion that America has achieved a significant amount more than any other free nation in the world. The rest of the free world doesn't really agree with this idea.
Unless we're talking about military size, I suppose.
HA! This is a very, very ignorant statement. Tp say that besides military size, we have not accomplished anything to be jelous of, is a very ignorant statement. In a little under 120+ years(when America came out of isolationism), we have accomplished more things in such a short amount of time then any nation has... ever.
First, yes our military is vastly powerful. Not just it's size, but its effectinveness. No nation in the world comes close to equaling America's power projections around the globe. Nations and cultures that have been around centuries, have been outdone by a nation that has only been around for a fraction of their time.
Second. Our economy. America is the second "richest" nation in the world, in terms of per capita income. (After luxenbourg, which has a very small population). We make more money then any of our predecessors, and they have been around for hundreds of years. Our economy, is the largest in the world, by about 4 trillion dollars, and none other in the world even comes close. Our dollar, is the dominate world currency, more often used in world transactions then the Euro, and Pound combined. Our dollar is accepted in most countries.
Third. Our culture. Yes, it is a mix of other ones, but today, it has become uniquely our own. Because of our large economy, we are able to make as many cultural items as we want, and get them anywhere in the world. The movie industry is owned and controlled by Americans, as almost every mainstream movie comes from America, or one of companies.
So there, there is what the rest of the free world might be jelous of. Our nation has been able to become dominant in almost every single category one could imagine. This is what the rest of the free world might look at and wonder why they have not accomplished it.
Excellent, Reticulum. Thanks for posting this.
ok,
How did it start, is what i want you to tell me, how many years of slavery, yeah later on it was abolished, but hardcore racism still goes on. The other nations had hundreds of years? yeah ofcourse they completely killed their resources, while america had (1 example) the gold rush.
Now what did America do to japan, simply atomic bomb their asses because of pearl harbor, tell me was it called for, an atomic bomb? no
So tell me, who is going to mess with a nation with an atomic bomb? which brings us back to the present, with Iran.
America is trying so hard to stay in its current position of power, but hey guess what as fast as it has become what it is, it will collapse, and its america's own fault, as each day goes by the world is hating america more, for what it has done, keeps trying to police the world, go into soil that is not theirs and impose their "authority."
Sure its a great country i like it, my sister lives there, my brother in law was born there, its a great country.
Now what we must watch is China, roqueting their way to the top, and hey its a very very old country, and how is it doing it, you tell me.
Whos was crying not long ago, because China is investing more money into their military.
I suggest you guys watch Syriana, its as good as hollywood can get.
Pink, i didnt get your email, all i got was bush and sandwich. =S
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"What did America do to Japan" Yes, because AMERICA was the bad guy in World War II. Where do you live anyway Leo? Wherever it is, they apparently don't teach world history there, otherwise you'd know what an insane understatement and oversimplification your views on Japan and the atomic bomb are.
To be honest, I don't really think America is trying all that hard to stay in power. You know what trying hard is? Invading everyone with the intention of conquest. The only war in America's history that comes to mind that America ever got into with the intention of staying was the Filipino War. Americans get into war reluctantly, and then can't wait to get out.
The rest of the world doesn't mind the fact that America is the world's coast guard, you all love the fact that 98% of international shipping is done in sea lanes that WE pay to patrol, while you reap the benefits for nothing. When someone is in a jam, the rest of the world tends to sit by idly, and if America doesn't help, everyone criticizes us for not getting more actively involved, and when we get involved where they don't approve, then we're all imperialist pricks trying to take over the world.
America isn't going to collapse like the rest of the world powers has. It will simply step aside to make room for more powerful nations stepping into the forefront, and it's starting to look like all of those powers will NOT include the rest of the Western World.
The rest of the world needs to put up or shut up. Stop demanding that America fix the world's problems, then complain when we try, but not to everyone else's satisfaction. Maybe Europe should try sending some peacekeeping forces around the world for once, and send a few hundred billion in aid and medical relief to Africa and S. America. Half the problems we're out there trying to fix are ones that Europe created to begin with.
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quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: To be honest, I don't really think America is trying all that hard to stay in power. You know what trying hard is? Invading everyone with the intention of conquest. The only war in America's history that comes to mind that America ever got into with the intention of staying was the Filipino War. Americans get into war reluctantly, and then can't wait to get out.
The rest of the world doesn't mind the fact that America is the world's coast guard, you all love the fact that 98% of international shipping is done in sea lanes that WE pay to patrol, while you reap the benefits for nothing. When someone is in a jam, the rest of the world tends to sit by idly, and if America doesn't help, everyone criticizes us for not getting more actively involved, and when we get involved where they don't approve, then we're all imperialist pricks trying to take over the world.
\
To be honest America is trying, really really hard to stay in power, example is how its looming over the oil thats left in the planet, which as you know is what started the whole thing in Iraq. The middle East is HOT HOT, and is going to get hotter.
Americans get into war and then cant wait to get out because their sons are dying for a cause not their own.
So the world doesnt mind that america is the world's coast guard, last time i checked its hated by most of Europe, the middle east, asia, and not because of its greatness, which will collapse i can asure you, it will never be as powerfull as it once was, but because they meddle in everybodys bussiness, i told you about China, America puts as much money as it wants into their military, nobody complains, but other nations do it and America is making claims that they are into something.
So now we are problem solvers eh, thats nice. Helping other nations with problems like Kenya thats dying of thrist, america is so eager of helping.
America wont give a damn about Africa until it has something that America wants.
Why would the rest of the world care of the sea lanes that you so effortly patrol when your the ones that need more from the other continents, than the rest of the continents need from america.
like i said, God Bless America... ha
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Lyrhawn, the debate about the atomic bombs is a very heated and discussed topic in the United States. You should know that before you suggest other countries are bringing up topics in history that you think are worthless.
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I've had no problems learning about World History in America. But thank you for educating me on your extreme biases, certainly helps put this debate in perspective. Further, if you don't want to be treated like a 13 or 14 year old (which I've yet to do, but am quickly approaching), then don't act like one. The rest of the world might teach world history better than us, but apparently they aren't so hot at english skills. Work on that.
Chungwa -
I don't even know what you are talking about there. From conversations here and with others at school, it's clearly a topic of discussion voiced around the world. But I agree that it is most likely far more heated here. I'm confused however as to how I said it is a worthless debate. In fact, if anything I said there is a lot more to the debate, and that Leo wasn't doing it justice by trivializing it to the point of mass omission. If you could quote where I went wrong, I'd be happy to answer to it.
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Well, using better grammar, and actually bringing up some valid points like I do, would throw off some suspiscion(sp?).
"To be honest America is trying, really really hard to stay in power, example is how its looming over the oil thats left in the planet, which as you know is what started the whole thing in Iraq. The middle East is HOT HOT, and is going to get hotter."
You, know, we actually aren't trying to stay in power. We simply go about our daily business, and the actions America has taken through its history all led up to us being where we are today. Democracy and freedom have helped greatly, since most were introduced in America.
As for oil, who the heck do you think is developing alternative fuels and alternative cars? America is the nation that is developing vehicles that are hydrogen ones, and trying to make alternative fuels widespread. So thats done. By 2015, hydrogen vehicles are suppsed to be available to the masses.
"Americans get into war and then cant wait to get out because their sons are dying for a cause not their own."
No, this is because we are a democracy, with many trains of thought. People voice their opinions freely, about everything the government does. There are just as many, who think we should stay in the war.
"So the world doesnt mind that america is the world's coast guard, last time i checked its hated by most of Europe, the middle east, asia, and not because of its greatness, which will collapse i can asure you, it will never be as powerfull as it once was, but because they meddle in everybodys bussiness, i told you about China, America puts as much money as it wants into their military, nobody complains, but other nations do it and America is making claims that they are into something."
To tell you the truth, America won't collapse. We are too powerful, to fair to our peoples, and if we did, the whole world suffer for our demise. The fall of the world economy, setting out a great depression, smaller nations becoming vulnerable to ones like China, nations losing their most powerful ally, and have the worlds technological advancements come to a grinding halt, do to the fact that most nations do their research with us, and if we fell, they would lose a lot of money.
"So now we are problem solvers eh, thats nice. Helping other nations with problems like Kenya thats dying of thrist, america is so eager of helping."
That is the point. I don't see Britain, France, Germany, China, or Canada helping either. Why should they go help? The sad truth is, no one cares about Africa. Very sad, and once the rest of the world's problems are solved, or Africa has something we want, then we will help them.
"America wont give a damn about Africa until it has something that America wants."
Or untill the rest of the world's problems are solved. But hey, the Europeans, they don't have ANY responsibility to help do they? I mean, they only caused half the problems in Africa.
"Why would the rest of the world care of the sea lanes that you so effortly patrol when your the ones that need more from the other continents, than the rest of the continents need from america."
Because we a big, hungry country, and don't turn a blinf eye tp China, as they starting to waste more then us. They already pollute FAR more then America.
"like i said, God Bless America... ha"
Indeed, God Bless America. God bless good grammar also.
Posts: 2121 | Registered: Oct 2005
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I wasn't going to, because your post was so riddled with goofy half truths and bias, but after seeing Reticulum's post, I'll post a reply to your reply to mine. Firstly, we aren't looming over all the world's oil. In the next 20 years, we'll have cut quite a bit of our own demand, and with increased imports from Mexico, Canada, and increased domestic production, we'll be just fine. It's China you need to worry about. They can actually launch a major land war on most of the countries in the area around them that have oil with very little effort. And maybe less effort if the Europeans start selling them more sophisticated weapons.
I really don't even know anymore what Iraq was really about, but it wasn't oil. If you think that, I don't think you understand the situation. What'd you think we were going to do? Invade and just take over the oil fields until we suck them dry? And we'd just take all their oil and no one would have a problem with it? There'd be no backlash? Contrary to your opinion, we really aren't that stupid. It took years for their production level to get to where it was before the war, we aren't getting any more oil now, and certainly not for cheaper, than we were before. I'm not a fan of the war, I've opposed it from the start, but even I don't think it was for oil. That argument doesn't have the evidence to back it up.
As for Americans quitting war because our sons and daughters are dying. We lost hundreds of thousands dying in Europe and we didn't quit. We lost tens of thousands dying in the Pacific, and we didn't quit then. Maybe we should have. We haven't fought a war for survival since 1865. Well, really 1812, 1865 just decided the composition of the nation, not whether or not it would be conquered by a foreign power. The last century has been America fighting to protect others (mostly). When's the last time Europe spearheaded an effort to defend the weak at the cost of their sons and daughters?
As for China, how are we putting money into their military? Sure, we buy their stuff, so does everyone. You could easily say that whenever a European buys American goods, they are really buying the tanks they revile so much. But we don't sell them weapons. That's something the Europeans want to do. And something Russians do on a daily basis.
As for Africa. Whew boy. Europe colonizes Africa, creates fake tribes and enslaves millions there for years (thousands of years, if you want to go back to Rome), plays cartographer and gets million embroiled in genocidal strife, then leaves the whole mess for them to handle themselves and it is somehow AMERICA'S job to swoop in and fix it for them? That's rich. Part of me wants to say "Clean up your own mess," but if we had to wait for Europe to fix it, it'd never get done. America gives billions in aid to Africa on a yearly basis, and asks for nothing in return. We loan them money then forgive their debt, we spend billions developing drugs then give them away for free to the helpless there. We send teachers, and relief workers etc to Africa to help the people, and Europe complains that we don't do enough. This, on top of complaining that we do TOO much in other places. Put up or shut up. Lead the way and we will follow.
And yes, because ALL international trade flows through America. The stuff that Europe imports from China, and from Indonesia and wherever else all runs over sealanes that America protects. Yes, we need the stuff that we import, but the WORLD's economy runs on global sea trade, not just America's. Turning a blind eye to that necessity is remarkably shortsighted and takes a rather dim world view. We make safe world trade possible while your toy navies (with the exception of Britain) puddle around in their harbors. Europe would be hardpressed to run a deep sea navy like America does without huge new financial burdens, the kind that caused Europe to slash it's navy hardcore over the last 50 years. I'm content to let you protect your own ships.
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All very good points, Lyrhawn. I wonder whether LeoJ will respond again, because if he did, it should be post saying that he was wrong.
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Lyrhawn, I was under the impression that the movie had pretty much the same cast as the original Broadway cast--no?
I love Brent Spiner as Adams, but I have to say that the rest of the revival cast was extremely weak. I don't know how people with such poor voices get to be in a Broadway show.
-o-
quote:Originally posted by Reticulum: You, know, we actually aren't trying to stay in power. We simply go about our daily business, and the actions America has taken through its history all led up to us being where we are today. Democracy and freedom have helped greatly, since most were introduced in America.
I don't think LeoJ is worth your effort, guys. In any case, while I agree with a few of your points, I wanted to quibble with this statement. How does Americas long history of undermining democratically elected governments in Latin America and replacing them with violently repressive right wing dictatorships friendly to US economic interests jibe with saying that America has taken no action to try and stay in power, and only achieved its position through virtuous living?
I think this may be where quidscribis's p.o.v. comes in. I think the actions that the US has taken have been right more often than they have been wrong. The US has often been a force for good in the world. The US is also a country where people enjoy more freedom than in many other countries in the world--and became that way when it was not all that commonplace. Finally, the US is a place where anyone of at least average ability can achieve modest success, if they pair that ability with patience and a great deal of motivation--I really do believe that. My family made a choice to live here--didn't most of ours?--and I'm grateful for that choice.
But why even discuss whether or not America is great? Why not simply work on making it so, if it isn't already, and more so, if it is? I think it's a question that can pretty much only be posed by a nation resting on its laurels. A nation seeking to be better would make a point of focusing on the areas where it could. Dropping nuclear bombs on civilian populaces. Destabilizing democracies and giving aid to dictatorships. Invading countries preemptively and under false pretenses. Passing laws to curtail the freedoms in which we take so much pride. Allowing ideological battles to play out in our children's curricula, and utterly failing to teach them science in the process. Enshrining discrimination into law. We should face the things we could do better, not try to deny that they exist, or suggest that to call attention to them is disloyal--it seems more disloyal to turn a blind eye to the places where we could improve. Whether or not we are "great" depends merely on how low we set that bar. We are pretty good, but we could certainly be better.
Standing around telling everyone how great we are, and that we invented freedom, and that we have never done anything wrong on the international stage, and that if they don't fall down and worship us, it's merely because they're jealous of how much better than them we are--that's arrogant.
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quote:The people I met in Berlin were pretty arrogant about being German.
But you guys have some sweet castles, so that's cool. I have a thing for castles.
( )
Bad luck! I've never been in Berlin. I don't want to go there, EVER. I don't like the mentality of the people from Berlin I got to know till now. And the dialect sounds awful to me.
If I had to guess, where you'd probably meet Germans that contradict my post (do they???), then I'd say: In Berlin.
It's the capital! I guess that at least half of the people who live there are simply proud of BERLIN itself (it IS beautiful) and/or remember the time before 1989. It's nice to live in Germany, especially when you remember that you once had to queue to get bananas. At least, that's my guess.
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Adams and Jefferson were the same with William Daniels and Ken Howard. Also Richard Henry Lee was played both times by Ronald Holgate. And William Duell plays Mcnair, Congressional Custodian.
Otherwise:
Benjamin Franklin was played by Howard Da Silva in the movie and in the opening few weeks of the show, but not throughout the show's run.
All of the other major characters were played by different actors, including, Dickinson, Rutledge, Livington, Morris, Sherman, Abigail Adams and more. Many of the background characters are the same however, but they're just the chorus. I really like that the broadway version has "Cool Considerate Men" in it, which was nixed from the movie because of Nixon. Bastard.
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The DVD has "Cool Considerate Men" [back] in it. It's really freaky/psychadelic/weird the way they staged it for the movie, though.
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Yeah I have the DVD, it's great! I love the stuff they added back in that was taken out. And though a lot of the CCM song is really, REALLY creepy the way they did it, I still like the song.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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I wish anyone around here, either my high school, college or even local theater group had done it.
I would've been a sweet John Adams. Or Dickinson. Or Rutledge. Or Corporal guy who sings "momma look sharp."
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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You started off asking why Americans are seen as arrogant jerks, but when anyone suggests that it's possible that America might not be the most good, just, noble, powerful, influential, or happy nation in the history of the universe, you take offence. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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