quote:Originally posted by Raymond Arnold: AARRHHH!!!!!!
I am playing the mission where you have to stay ahead of the wave of fire, fighting the protoss (on Hard mode, not sure if there's a particular difference). I keep getting to the very end, forgetting to incrementally save somewhere along the way, and then attacking before I'm ready. This is the first campaign map that really forces you to pay attention to all kinds of places at once (well, others do to some degree, but this one feels harder). So replaying it is keeping in a constant, heightened state of stress.
I've restarted this mission a ridonkulous number of times. Mostly from the midpoint auto-save, but the first several times I was screwing up the early game and not building enough Starports.
The solution to that level is to go ground with a heavy quantity of disposable marines/marauders/medics being backed up with siege tanks. Don't bother with air at all.
Ooze forward in a ball and 'tank push'
it's many many times easier, especially if you have stimpacks.
(as a bonus you can get the Siege Breakers just in time from the opening base's merc building)
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Anyway, this game can be frustrating when you're suddenly on a losing streak. I even lost to a cannon rush... I know how to stop them, but I didn't act fast enough and I was completely obliterated.
If there's a definition of cheap in this game, a Protoss cannon rush is it. The game lasted 3 minutes, and I have to admit I was furious by the end. When you're getting furious at a game, it's time to give it a break. But then, it's not the game, it's the players. Losing constantly makes me much angrier than it should... but it's embarrassing. I was finally nearly back to even on wins/loses, now I'm way back again.
posted
I don't think either one is particularly cheap, nor the terran proxy tricks. I crushed a terran who tried a proxy barracks on me last night. I had to send my queen over to take out the SCV, but I took out the barracks before he was able to produce anything from it.
Contained him, expanded twice, and then rolled him up when I had a large enough pile of roaches.
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quote:The solution to that level is to go ground with a heavy quantity of disposable marines/marauders/medics being backed up with siege tanks. Don't bother with air at all.
Really? 'cuz even in the final area a large number of units aren't able to hit air at all.
Every time I've failed, I've understood exactly why I failed (or at least, I can see a way that if I had simply used the strategy I'm using WITHOUT screwing up, I'd have won). It's just that there's a lot of ways to screw up.
Granted, I've always been heavily biased in favor of air, I'm not sure why. Whenever I try the MMM ball that's supposed to be so good it just doesn't work out for me. I think I may simply not be getting enough units. Exactly how big does a MMM ball need to be to be effective?
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quote:Originally posted by Raymond Arnold: AARRHHH!!!!!!
I am playing the mission where you have to stay ahead of the wave of fire, fighting the protoss (on Hard mode, not sure if there's a particular difference). I keep getting to the very end, forgetting to incrementally save somewhere along the way, and then attacking before I'm ready. This is the first campaign map that really forces you to pay attention to all kinds of places at once (well, others do to some degree, but this one feels harder). So replaying it is keeping in a constant, heightened state of stress.
I've restarted this mission a ridonkulous number of times. Mostly from the midpoint auto-save, but the first several times I was screwing up the early game and not building enough Starports.
A cheap way I found to win, I managed to move a factory and starport to the lower right corner of the map, made a small army, and once the wave of fire had killed almost every protoss unit and before it got to the building, I flew up and sniped the building.
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posted
The photon cannon inside your base really isn't too bad on most maps. Just close your gap as fast as possible and generally it's faster than a probe getting inside.
If that fails you should still see the probe enter and not leave, which means you need marines as fast as possible and they need to search out the black sections of your base until they find the probe or pylon.
If *that* fails, then it's time to invest build more marines and try to surgically kill the pylon. If THAT fails, it's time to push hard for a siege tank with the siege ability as fast as possible.
If that fails, you probably need to learn to build faster.
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posted
Yeah, to avoid a rush, you really need to scout both your enemy's base and your own base in the very early game. The 9th SCV/probe/drone is a good one to consider sending to scout the enemy base. You should also have something stationed at your ramp so you know if an enemy SCV/probe/drone comes in.
As zerg this isn't as big a problem for me, since I can just rally each successive overlord to a different area of my base, and usually cover most of it with the first two in 1v1. That's generally enough to tell me if they're trying a proxy or cannon rush strategy. I've actually never fallen to one, now that I think of it. I've lost to zergling and zealot rushes, though.
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posted
Cannon rush CAN be a big deal for terran but is usually the result of intel failure. SC2 requires an elegant combination of production efficiency, map awareness, and combat direction. Fall short on any of these three pillars, and it sets up a chain of predictable results against good players.
There's a terribly wordy video by a nerd who cannot for the life of himself stop talking but is nevertheless an incredibly useful SC2 101 I should find and post here.
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disclaimer: this guy won't shut up and he keeps talking and talking until I want to break his arms and I hate him and good lord shut up shut up
BUT
If you've been having problems with SCII multiplayer and can't figure out how to get better, I guarantee if you ACTUALLY SIT THROUGH THE VIDEO and resist the urge to hurl your monitor through the window, and you actually watch the whole thing?
You WILL be a lot better at starcraft.
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posted
The trick with Protoss is to make sure you keep an eye on your ramp to see if a Probe sneaks in. If you're not sure, you really ought to send an SCV on a few quick clicks to scout your area-just shift right click around the periphery and then back to minerals-and if you see a probe, sic an SCV on it. Waiting for a marine might be too late.
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posted
I've been watching this guy in five barely manageable increments over the past five hours. It's brutal.
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Ok... I won a battle by all rights I should have lost.
Incidentally, it was the first time I ever used bunkers. They saved so many of my men it wasn't even funny. Actually, wait, it was.
So, yeah. He was Protoss and attacked my Terran base very early on. I hadn't actually built any marines yet. He destroyed my barracks before I could do anything, and most of my scv's. But I moved my base to an area barricaded by rocks, and quickly used everything I had left to rebuild (I did have some money in my bank, luckily) and was able to get bunkers up and filled fast enough to stop him. He then kept attacking, but I was soon able to rebuild my power base, and he played very, very badly.
I'm certain he was toying with me. "Ha, he can't do anything! Wait... I'm not beating him..."
I finally built enough to get some medivacs full of marines, and attacked his base. He had a fleet of void rays, but I managed to destroy it. Clearly it was in its early stages. He gave up right there... I dunno if he was letting me win or not. Maybe not in the end.
Okay, after looking at the replay... he was definitely toying with me, at least at the beginning. He played one base, and figured, I think, that he had large enough forces to beat me when he attacked again. He was resting on his laurels while I worked desperately. He didn't even build a second base until I managed to myself!
Once again: I should not have won. Now, how do I upload replays?
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posted
As a terran you should definitely utilize bunkers very often. They are great for securing your expansion, and when you are prepared to push out against your opponent, you can salvage them for 100% of the original cost. In a sense they are free, and you really should abuse them as much as possible because of that.
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posted
True. Very true. That's good advice, and I'll think about it.
As it is, I tend to play one-base, at least as Terrans. I can usually get enough bio early-ish enough to crush the enemy. Especially since I usually get medivacs quickly so I have mobility.
But there are weaknesses to it. And I used to start with reapers alot, but I kept finding myself beaten back without doing enough damage. I think the map has a lot to do with when you choose that. I saw a guy do much better with reapers on one of those four player maps. I forget which one.
Another new strategy I learned for terrans was to move the base to a new location at the very beginning. That caught me off guard, too. It was a gold level player who did it. Great stuff.
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posted
I'm no expert, but I think an early base move is basically a gamble that you'll get lucky against an inexperienced player. You have to cripple your early economy and build wasting all that time doing nothing but moving your base.
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Wow, just finished a 2v2 game... my guy got taken out early, and the enemy tried a cannon rush on me. It failed, and I wiped out one of the enemy players. And then, I battled the other player for nearly an hour. I destroyed his bases so many times, and if I had pushed at his new main base (my dead ally's main base!) from the right angle, I might have won. Heck, at one point he had no bases, period. He just built so MANY cannons.
In the end, what killed me was a mistake. I attacked from south of his second to last base to avoid the cannons, and blew up the command center easily. But... this time instead of escaping I went forward, and my forces ended up being pretty much wiped out. If I'd just pulled out, moved around and did the same to his main base, he prolly would have gg'd. As it was, I made a fatal mistake and he took advantage of it.
I fought 1v2 and it was incredible. Even though I lost.
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quote:Originally posted by MightyCow: I'm no expert, but I think an early base move is basically a gamble that you'll get lucky against an inexperienced player. You have to cripple your early economy and build wasting all that time doing nothing but moving your base.
QFT.
It might work, but not often, and not against anyone who gets a head start on you because of it.
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posted
It's not a strategy I'll be using a lot. It's definitely one of those "first time you see it it defeats you. Next time you're prepared, and know what to do" strategies. Like the cannon rush. Or a baneling bust.
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posted
I dunno, Soap. I play Terran in a platinum league, and I can't recall the last time I saw bunkers used anything but offensively, such as walling in an enemy's choke point. Yes, you can salvage a bunker meaning its cost is effectively zero, but that begs the question: is 100 minerals now a fair trade for 100 minerals later? Later, I will ought to have a more robust economy meaning that in fact it's not an even trade. Is 100m now on a bunker worth more than a hellion which can scout very effectively, all over the map?
When I'm playing as and against Terran, the only static defenses I use are sensor towers and missile turrets. If you can keep a mobile, mixed army in the area, even as much as a region away, and you keep an eye on your minimap, you'll have time to arrive. That army can respond to threats anywhere, not just in a range of infantry+1. Also when I'm playing against Terrans, if I see bunkers, I just attack elsewhere. Resources spent on a bunker here mean one less missile turret there. A bunker guarding the minerals of an expansion leaves the command center vulnerable, while a bunker guarding the command center leaves the gatherers vulnerable. Also, the truth is, just one bunker really isn't much against anything but small attacks. It will put a dent in a real harassment, and won't even be a hiccup to a serious trying-to-end-game push, and then you'll have lost the bunker and the units in it.
Static defenses, even somewhat free ones, pin you down. I can see some circumstances when they might be valuable, though. If I'm attempting to be sneaky and build a base or perhaps some buildings outside my natural area, a bunker or at most two might be a good idea, but I would still need to have a very mobile likely air force able to retaliate in time to have a chance of saving the place, and to really have a shot at protection I would need a sensor tower-which would rather announce it was there.
quote: But there are weaknesses to it. And I used to start with reapers alot, but I kept finding myself beaten back without doing enough damage. I think the map has a lot to do with when you choose that. I saw a guy do much better with reapers on one of those four player maps. I forget which one.
There are a few tricks to rushing with reapers. There is one absolute necessity, and that's getting them fast. You'll be sacrificing a mess of marines for base defense for a refinery and three or four reapers. The speed upgrade is also important, since it makes for easier micro and increases the chances you'll arrive before stalkers/queens/marauders. But the big one is an Orbital Command, with a comscan just before you arrive. I'm talking seconds at most, ideally hotkey for orbital command, press for comscan, press for the reaper group, and attack. When you go, make sure you go as close to the edges as possible if there is a decent defense, because the reaper rush only works if you smash or dent his economy. If you see nothing, though, go straight up.
quote:Another new strategy I learned for terrans was to move the base to a new location at the very beginning. That caught me off guard, too. It was a gold level player who did it. Great stuff.
Yeah, that's an all-in strategy that, if your opponent scouts effectively, will be a guaranteed disaster.
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posted
I will say this: Must they count battle.net's connection issues as losses/wins? I had this protracted battle with a gold rank Protoss player that, while I wasn't winning, I still had the potential to, even an hour into the game.
And it booted me. He gets the win, and I lose points. My internet was fine, nothign else was wrong, just battle.net. It's frustrating enough to end such a good game, but... for it to count as a loss, without any reservations? I may very well have lost in the end, but I wanted to lose fairly. And I was so itching to get him back for the beginning and his cannon rush.
I told him to fight like a man. He said to "cry to your mama." I was itching to attack his base with my (then) stronger force, and tell him something like "who's crying to their mama now?" But I was booted before I could make my move... sigh.
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0Megabyte: if they didn't, people would try to game the system by creating connection issues when games were going against them.
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quote:Although it sounds like now, people could rush and put themselves temporarily ahead, then cause connection issues and get a win.
The thing is, you're supposed to rush, or prepare for a rush. It's a necessity of Starcraft 2: you must rush or prepare to be rushed. If you're not doing one or both of those things, you're just not doing it right.
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posted
Yeah, rushing is the name of the game. And I don't complain that he cannon-rushed me. (I've been learning to deal with it. And I know now how to stop it. I have to be fast, though!)
Still... connection issues make it quite unfair sometimes. I dunno how he could cause ME to have connection issues, though! He wasn't losing enough that I'd expect him to resort to it, anyway.
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quote:Originally posted by MightyCow: Although it sounds like now, people could rush and put themselves temporarily ahead, then cause connection issues and get a win.
Not saying that is what happened, but it sounds like it's possible.
posted
Ah, that makes more sense. Then they at least have to haxor your MineSweeper and force you to quit with sneakyness. Much less likely.
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posted
Started playing as Random, heh, and boy do I have no idea what I'm doing! I expect I'll find my way back in gold at this rate.
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posted
I'm 700 points into Diamond league atm, and the Terrans that I play against generally use their bunkers to secure their expansions. Many Terrans like to pull SCVs from gas and use MULEs to quickly get enough minerals to make a fast expansion. The bunkers really just help them defend it easier, because they are sacrificing their army for a huge economic gamble. A terran at this point would probably have 8 marines top, and very little tech to speak of.
It's really very popular on Metalopolis because the natural expansion is the only entrance to the base and so there's no real way around those bunkers early game. Late game it doesn't even matter because by then the expansion has paid for itself.
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posted
Got out of a 3v3 game where one of my allies started getting hit with a photon cannon creep. He kept trying to train zealots and hit the cannons, and nearly quit, but the other guy and myself talked him out of it. I got siege tanks there while my other ally walked some zealots into the cannon builder's base and cleaned up.
It went back and forth a lot. I got hit with reapers, chased them off with two thors. My tanks and thors got killed stalling a mass of hydralisks and void rays trying to get at my natural exp. Mutalisks, hit me from the back, but I chased them off with three thors, and some turrets. Got hit with a mixed bio ball/thor raid, while I put up a stiff resistance, it blew through and wiped out my main. Fortunately I had two other command centers, one was a recent expansion, one was my second exp that you have to fly to to pick up, so I flew a CC to that location and it was unmolested the entire match.
I had to rebuild my factories, and armory, but I had a ridiculous surplus of resources, I just didn't have the time to churn out units with how much I got hit. Meantime, my allies pummeled their exp bases every time they hit me, and eventually they just couldn't get enough resources and quit.
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posted
I just tried it on a 1v1 map v Protoss, and it worked out nicely doing just that-protect an expansion. I think you may be right, and I'll have to include them more in the future. When I pop Terran that is.
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posted
Woo hoo. I just learned, the hard way, that battle cruisers can be taken down by missile turrets.
At least, they could be until the guy realized yamato cannons beat their range!
I still won. But it was a race to see who could blow up all remaining buildings first. And I won that battle easily, as my base was filled with missile turrets, and he had to go through them very, very slowly.
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quote:Originally posted by 0Megabyte: I still won. But it was a race to see who could blow up all remaining buildings first. And I won that battle easily, as my base was filled with missile turrets, and he had to go through them very, very slowly.
Speaking of close endings, check out this game someone showed me. It's a bit long, but it's one of the funniest endings I've seen. Worth taking a few moments to watch, imo.
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posted
I just want to clarify: after I go to Char, do I get to do any more research or upgrades, or is that it?
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Also, if I never go to Haven and complete the mission one way or another, does Hanson stick around in any meaningful way? (For that matter, if I fight the protoss, does she return at all later?)
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quote:I just want to clarify: after I go to Char, do I get to do any more research or upgrades, or is that it?
Once you go to Char you can still spend money and research you've already accumulated to get upgrades, but there are no further opportunities to earn income/research.
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posted
You know, I'm not sure which is worse. I mean, 21st Century Skills through Starcraft at least sounds like there's some potential to reach people who won't be reached otherwise, but Origami? As a 3000 level class? Seriously?
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