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Author Topic: Starcraft II just launched
Kwea
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I played some 2v2 with Juxt last night, and we SUCK. We won 1 of 4, and 2 of those we really got our butts kicked. The last one....well, before he died Juxt pretty much ruined one of the players, but I didn't know it. I could have pushed out, but I turtled just to piss them off.


I wrecked 4 fleets sent against me, but had I known they were in such bad condition I probably could have won it, or at least made a good bid for it.

2v2 likes to pick maps where you can't block off the entrances, so it makes it tough to defend against a zerg rush.

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Rakeesh
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You can still block off your own, smaller entraces nicely, and just an SCV on auto-repair and patrol along with even two or three marines can defeat surprisingly large numbers of zerglings in the first few minutes...during which time you're still cranking out marines to the point where you can retaliate. That's a big trick in Starcraft 2: if you defeat an attack to the point of actually destroying it, retaliate immediately or at least as quickly as you can, even with a small force, because there's a great chance it will be enough.
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Armoth
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That retaliation lesson - I'm starting to learn that lesson. I'm trying to master auto-creating units with hot-keys so that while I'm winning a battle I have enough reinforcements to do some serious follow-through
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Juxtapose
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I actually don't think Kwea and I did too poorly. We were doing placement matches, and our first two were just unfair. One big problem was that we weren't scouting, so we couldn't react to our opponents.
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T:man
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ID is: zaxfary@hotmail

Would love to play anyone here.

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Kwea
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Yeah, we did OK. We did have 2 maps over 3 of the matches where the openings were HUGE, even to our own little places.
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0Megabyte
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Okay, this is getting silly.

I've been playing Zerg, and got three Protoss opponents in a row. They all beat me, and I don't understand how! I've played Protoss, and yet they build units so fast. I'm building as fast as is physically possible, yet I can't do anything to match them. Even units I know counter their units. Even when I have more units to start. They just steamroll me and I don't know how. Even watching the replays, I don't see what they're doing. Except the guy who just built defenses right next to my base because he "hated Zerg players" or something.

I just... I don't understand! As Terran I always seem to beat Protoss. But I want to play Zerg, not Terrans. I've even been practicing build order and speed to get a large military up as fast as possible. Yet they have huge armies practically at the start! How do they afford it? Especially with how expensive Protoss units are!

I'm just so frustrated. I don't understand!

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0Megabyte
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I don't get it. Do better players play at night or something? Am I not at full speed? How can I keep losing constantly against every single player? What is wrong with this? This doesn't even make sense and this many losses in a row is just beyond me! I just don't understand how everyone can do everything so much faster! I build everything as fast as I have minerals, how do they do it?
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JanitorBlade
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quote:
Originally posted by 0Megabyte:
I don't get it. Do better players play at night or something? Am I not at full speed? How can I keep losing constantly against every single player? What is wrong with this? This doesn't even make sense and this many losses in a row is just beyond me! I just don't understand how everyone can do everything so much faster! I build everything as fast as I have minerals, how do they do it?

Watch videos of experts playing and take note of their build orders. I used to think I had plenty of SCVs until I watched a few of those.
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Xavier
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Yeah in your replays compare your worker counts. Also factor in chronoboost. Are you using your queens for more larvae?
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Raymond Arnold
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I find Zerg the hardest to play because they are completely unforgiving about the Queen. Chronoboost and Mule calldown you can forget for a few minutes and then do a bunch at once. Queens you MUST remember to spawn extra larvae at each hatchery every 30 seconds (minute?) or you will just lose.
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Armoth
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Forgot to post this: Armoth 983
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Xavier
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quote:
Chronoboost and Mule calldown you can forget for a few minutes and then do a bunch at once.
I use the boost several times in the first few minutes and then forget it exists for the rest of the game...

I need a checklist of crap I was supposed to be doing during the game to train myself better.

I got into the Gold league in 1v1 after placement, but I need to improve a lot to stay there I think.

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airmanfour
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I just got it and I'm awful. Zulfiqar if anyone wants to play with someone awful.
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Avin
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quote:
Originally posted by 0Megabyte:
I don't get it. Do better players play at night or something? Am I not at full speed? How can I keep losing constantly against every single player? What is wrong with this? This doesn't even make sense and this many losses in a row is just beyond me! I just don't understand how everyone can do everything so much faster! I build everything as fast as I have minerals, how do they do it?

Also, if you upload your replays and post links, maybe some of us here can give you concrete suggestions from looking at your play.
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Kwea
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One of the biggest things for Protoss, which is all I am playing right now, is that if there is a pylon anywhere in the map, and they went with warp gates (which I think everyone does), they can warp in fully formed units ANYWHERE within that pylons field. No need to march them, or wait for them to build.

That means we burn though a TON or resources with away though. If you can hold off a rush, then retaliate within 1-2 min, you can beat us.

Maybe. [Wink]

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Kwea
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Avin and I just played a 2v2 tonight, and won. We played Zerg/Protoss vs Protess/Terran.

I had 5 warp gates by the time the opposing prot player had 2, and I had void rays cooking too. We forced him to go all Striders, and he basically ran out of Vespene,

We would have won earlier, but I burned though all of my resources, and I made a rookie mistake. I accidentally blocked my entrance completely off so I couldn't get a probe out to start a new base. I actually had to build a robotics bay just to airlift out probes so I could build pylons and warp my forces to help Avin. [Big Grin]

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0Megabyte
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Wow. I was really, really upset last night. I think it being late at night was a problem.

The weird thing last night was that people were attacking me very early on. No matter how early I made a spawning pool, an opponent Zerg had one faster. Protoss crushed me. As Terran I'm much better, I think. I've lost a lot less, at least.

Zerg is a really intensive race, though. You have to keep watch on pretty much everything. Though their base defenses are way more useful. Still, the fact that every building uses a worker makes things harder too. But I like playing as them better than Terrans. Terrans almost feel too easy.

Also, I think I'll upload some replays and send some links soon. Might be helpful. Thanks for the tips everyone. I know a lot of it already, but it's execution that's important.

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0Megabyte
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Actually, speaking of that, I found a great weakness of Terrans.

The zergling rush is deadly. Heck, I only used a very few... but he couldn't stop it and the battle was done in six minutes.

Now that's a morale booster. Not being dead tired really helps.

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Rakeesh
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It really depends on the map-the ones with the larger ramps, zergling rushes can be deadly, but those with narrower ramps can be easily walled up and your zerglings won't be able to do squat.
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T:man
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quote:
Originally posted by Rakeesh:
It really depends on the map-the ones with the larger ramps, zergling rushes can be deadly, but those with narrower ramps can be easily walled up and your zerglings won't be able to do squat.

Send banelings in to destroy walls, then send the 'lings.
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0Megabyte
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Well, luckily I was shown a few new things by a friend on the game through some practice matches, so I think it'll help.

And in actual games, I was even able to stop an early Protoss void ray attack in a match game and win.

I'd lost another game because I hadn't set my anti-air defense quite fast enough. If he'd been ten seconds later, or I'd defended my main base with anti-air first (last time I fail to do that!) my anti-air would have been online. It probably would have stopped him. But, I didn't, so he blew them up before they were finished. The game ended right there, honestly. Not enough hydras, either.

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0Megabyte
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The guy on there who helped me was really nice, actually. You'd all like him. He showed me step-by-step on improving my early rush, and showed me a little about interpreting what I saw when scouting. Basic stuff, but it helped me. And I was able to beat him in our second real match thanks to it. I hope to play 2v2 with him, because he was good fun.
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T:man
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Yay! Ranked silver in 1v1, finally realized the importance of broodlords...
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Kwea
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quote:
Originally posted by T:man:
quote:
Originally posted by Rakeesh:
It really depends on the map-the ones with the larger ramps, zergling rushes can be deadly, but those with narrower ramps can be easily walled up and your zerglings won't be able to do squat.

Send banelings in to destroy walls, then send the 'lings.
ONly works if they use a really small wall, and don't have scv's repairing. But a lot of players don't.
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Rakeesh
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quote:
Send banelings in to destroy walls, then send the 'lings.
Yes, I'm familiar with the baneling bust. If the Terran just sits tight in his base defending only with marines and marauders, that will work, but by the time Zerg has banelings, Terrans ought to be doing things like harrassing with medivac drops, and have hellions and siege tanks, and have an expansion, and most especially ought to know the Zerg is going for banelings via scouting.
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Samprimary
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quote:
Originally posted by 0Megabyte:
Okay, this is getting silly.

I've been playing Zerg, and got three Protoss opponents in a row. They all beat me, and I don't understand how! I've played Protoss, and yet they build units so fast. I'm building as fast as is physically possible, yet I can't do anything to match them. Even units I know counter their units. Even when I have more units to start. They just steamroll me and I don't know how. Even watching the replays, I don't see what they're doing. Except the guy who just built defenses right next to my base because he "hated Zerg players" or something.

I just... I don't understand! As Terran I always seem to beat Protoss. But I want to play Zerg, not Terrans. I've even been practicing build order and speed to get a large military up as fast as possible. Yet they have huge armies practically at the start! How do they afford it? Especially with how expensive Protoss units are!

I'm just so frustrated. I don't understand!

Protoss have the most varied start-game with scouting, thanks to chrono boost. They can see what you are doing and elect to go either chrono/probes at nexus, or if they see you have ling production/early rush, they can chrono/gateway for early defensive unit production.

Protoss also have the most micro-exploitative capacity, since their units are usually high HP and they have the best specialist roles and specialty functions. If you look very carefully at the replays, odds are you will notice de-shielded units being disengaged and shifting to the back, use of immortals' hardened shield, ensuring all units are focusing fire on a single target, etc.

A unit at 1 health and a unit at 400 health both have the same damage output, so people who micro excellently against opponents who just 'push forward' don't suffer nearly the same output attrition.

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SoaPiNuReYe
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quote:
Originally posted by 0Megabyte:
Okay, this is getting silly.

I've been playing Zerg, and got three Protoss opponents in a row. They all beat me, and I don't understand how! I've played Protoss, and yet they build units so fast. I'm building as fast as is physically possible, yet I can't do anything to match them. Even units I know counter their units. Even when I have more units to start. They just steamroll me and I don't know how. Even watching the replays, I don't see what they're doing. Except the guy who just built defenses right next to my base because he "hated Zerg players" or something.

I just... I don't understand! As Terran I always seem to beat Protoss. But I want to play Zerg, not Terrans. I've even been practicing build order and speed to get a large military up as fast as possible. Yet they have huge armies practically at the start! How do they afford it? Especially with how expensive Protoss units are!

I'm just so frustrated. I don't understand!

If you keep spawning larva with your Queens and are 1 base ahead of the Protoss, it should be tough for them to out-macro you. Maybe you were slacking in one of these two departments.
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0Megabyte
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Very good points all... but I am avoiding playing for a couple days. This game takes so much time, and I'd be better off writing than playing. [Big Grin] Still, it was definitely worth the 60 bucks. Having to figuratively pry myself away from it is generally the sign of a good game!
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Samprimary
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I have a replay from today where over 175 supply of terran and zerg ground units tried to blast their way up their own ramp to challenge multiple colossi that we'd inched up there, and all got burned to a crisp in less than 30 seconds.

The game seized up and delivered me something like seven achievements.

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0Megabyte
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It was Terran? They should have used Vikings, then.
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Kwea
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I love Vikings, Void rays toast them up like marshmallows.
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T:man
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Played a game yesterday, 2v2, my teammate just kept building up his base. He just sat there and watched as I was mobbed by massed by vikings and hellions. He then came in, after I hid a hatchery behind him, and destroyed them with massed carriers and void rays.

My early game is great but my late game really needs work.

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BlackBlade
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Possibly the most epic SC2 match I've ever watched.

Link.

The link is part 4 which comes after a very long sequence of battles. The ending sounds like something that had to be scripted, but I just don't see how you could fake something like this.

I apologize for the commentator having an obnoxious voice.

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Avin
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Here's my favorite by far.

Link.

Link goes to part 1, out of 4.

Just a disclaimer, maybe this is the same match that BlackBlade posted. I can't access YouTube from work, so I can't check to see if it's the same thing. For reference, mine is a TT1 vs MasterAsia.

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Dr Strangelove
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Yeah, it is the same match. Epic match though.
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Samprimary
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quote:
Originally posted by 0Megabyte:
It was Terran? They should have used Vikings, then.

It's not a case of 'well, then they should have used this unit' we scout and produce our next tier based on what we see them doing. If they had vikings, we would have had void rays or a healthier quantity of stalkers (depending on what they try to supplement the vikings with).

But since we watch them carefully and counterproduce units, you have a bunch of crispy-fried marines, marauders, roaches and hydras.

So many, in fact that the game derped out trying to give us all the achievements we earned in those seconds.

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Rakeesh
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Good safety tip: if you've got 100+ supply, you should at least have some sort of mixture of forces besides 'ground plus more ground'. Heck, if you're Terran with that much resources, use the rarely used nuke option first, or even better EMP.
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Parkour
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100 supply with MMMballs and roach hydra balls are not uncommon earlier on before lategame diversification is possible. Sounds like they just went max production and got hard countered.
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Rakeesh
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That's what I mean: once you get past that early stage, it's time to diversify or at the very least be in a position to start diversifying quickly - by that I mean two factories or more ready to churn out siege tanks and thors, or one or two starports with a reactor on one to churn out vikings and medivacs.

But the big kicker in this story is: if he's got Colossi and is able to keep you largely past your ground unit range, don't just keep throwing meat into the grinder. Expand, or thrash his expansions, or stop him from expanding.

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0Megabyte
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Yeah, I've already watched that game. That was pretty crazy. One zergling versus one zealot. What a battle.
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Dr Strangelove
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One zergling and one drone vs one zealot. [Wink]
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0Megabyte
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Yes. And for spoilers' sake, it was the drone that was key to winning that battle. [Big Grin]
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Samprimary
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quote:
Originally posted by Rakeesh:
But the big kicker in this story is: if he's got Colossi and is able to keep you largely past your ground unit range, don't just keep throwing meat into the grinder. Expand, or thrash his expansions, or stop him from expanding.

yeah, uh, this was their base, not ours. They were trying to get back up their own ramp. I'm fully prepared to say they were welcome to start new bases or go after our expansions while we glassed their base and burned all their mans.

I got more faves today in the 1v1 category:

1. prism over some crap units into their base
2. Attack mans
3. Army comes over to wipe out crap units, protect mans
4. Bring in army and force field off their own ramp
5. kill expansion, expansion mans
6. skitter away
7. profit!

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0Megabyte
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Huh. Not even a section that's just "??????". You really had it all figured out. [Big Grin]
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Samprimary
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I know my strengths and weaknesses very well.

fwiw here's how to beat me:

1. zerg air harrass
2. more zerg air
3. profit!

Stealthbuild a mutaball away from my observers and i lose so hard it's not even funny.

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Rakeesh
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Oh, I see, I didn't get your description, Samprimary. What, did you bypass his attack, or was he building up or something?

Yeah, one downside of sensor towers is that they make that kind of baiting much easier, if the Terran doesn't take care to do a quick comscan.

As for mutas, they're deadly vs. me too. Particularly when they clump up and it becomes difficult to get a handle on how many there are. And they're so fast.

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Raymond Arnold
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AARRHHH!!!!!!

I am playing the mission where you have to stay ahead of the wave of fire, fighting the protoss (on Hard mode, not sure if there's a particular difference). I keep getting to the very end, forgetting to incrementally save somewhere along the way, and then attacking before I'm ready. This is the first campaign map that really forces you to pay attention to all kinds of places at once (well, others do to some degree, but this one feels harder). So replaying it is keeping in a constant, heightened state of stress.

I've restarted this mission a ridonkulous number of times. Mostly from the midpoint auto-save, but the first several times I was screwing up the early game and not building enough Starports.

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Samprimary
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Yeah, our opponents were doing exactly what they should have been doing with an MMM ball and a bunch of zerg ground. We teched but it had cost us a lot of map control and even our hard counter was too skimpy on output to deal with their ground force. We came up BEHIND their force, It saw us, I saw it, it was big, I went 'oh no,' I retreated, and made a split second decision to swoop up their own ramp. Colossi walked up, so there was no traffic jam. Just .. swoop! They saw us do this. They went 'oh no.' I micro'd each colossi back as I saw its shields go down, so none of them went down through the fight and kept up the output. The force was large, but ..
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0Megabyte
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Raymond: They have auto-save. It just saves whenever you pass particular points! Helped me out soooo many times.
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