quote:Sharpie, to be blunt: you need to get over it. Replace fat, overweight or whatever applicable weight-related term with the equivilant to apply to Mormons, Christians, Scientologists, Satanists, Republicans, Democrats, Libertarians, blacks, whites, rappers, people who live in trailer parks, homeless, the wealthy, single mothers, gays, divorcees, or fill in your own favorite demographic about which you hold a generalized negative stereotype.
Didn't you mean to write:
"Sharpie, to be blunt: you need to get over it. Replace fat, overweight or whatever applicable weight-related term with the equivilant to apply to Mormons, Christians, Scientologists, Satanists, Republicans, Democrats, Libertarians, blacks, whites, rappers, people who live in trailer parks, homeless, the wealthy, single mothers, gays, divorcees, or fill in your own favorite demographic about which I hold a generalized negative stereotype."
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There is NOTHING to indicate that the person who wrote that statement to Sharpie thinks badly of the groups listed, and I think it's very unfair to imply that they do.
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quote:Frankly, the difference between the two means little, at least to me.
The first doesn't necessarily imply conscious use of the factor in selection. The second definitely does. That's a huge difference.
Perhaps I should have clarified that the difference in the phrases doesn't change how I feel about the statement. I still find it disagreeable in a very basic way. It could be because it was preceded and followed with other things I found to be intensely disagreeable.
Honestly, I can't take issue with what he said in an argumentative way. It is the way he feels, and he's entitled to feel that way. I just find it sad (and at times infuriating) that there are people who honestly think like that. I do find it shallow. Perhaps what bothers me most is that he felt free to share it with the world. It seems to me that thoughts and opinions like that should be hidden away, and the person harboring the thoughts should have the decency to feel ashamed about it, even if they can't change it.
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quote:I think you could make the argument that you're basing your friendships on the mutual love of physical activity, but since you are writing them off as potential friends simply by looking at them, I think it is immensely fair to say that you're basing your friendships on appearance.
Except I'm not writing them off as friends.
Often, when I make a decision, say, to pursue a friendship with someone, I base it on many different factors that may have positive or negative impacts. To me, someone being obese has a negative impact on whether I'm going to try to become friends with them. This is not to say that they may not have a whole mess of positive traits. It's just one aspect of who they are, but it is one I consider a negative.
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quote:It seems to me that thoughts and opinions like that should be hidden away, and the person harboring the thoughts should have the decency to feel ashamed about it, even if they can't change it.
There are a lot of thoughts and opinions like that on Hatrack. Not too many people shut up about them though, and most of them are much more deliberately confrontational than BQT's posts.
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quote:I think you could make the argument that you're basing your friendships on the mutual love of physical activity, but since you are writing them off as potential friends simply by looking at them, I think it is immensely fair to say that you're basing your friendships on appearance.
Except I'm not writing them off as friends.
Often, when I make a decision, say, to pursue a friendship with someone, I base it on many different factors that may have positive or negative impacts. To me, someone being obese has a negative impact on whether I'm going to try to become friends with them. This is not to say that they may not have a whole mess of positive traits. It's just one aspect of who they are, but it is one I consider a negative.
Well, that doesn't sound as bad. I mean... I really can understand that you want to have friends who are active, but do you really need to outline potential friends' qualities in negative or positive categories? Couldn't you instead let it all happen naturally--and be friends with the people who are interested in going out places with you? Perhaps instead of saying you are less likely to be friends with fat people, you could say I don't have many fat friends because we aren't often in the same sorts of situations, since I'm an active guy... Or something like that.
Maybe the difference doesn't mean much, but it might make it sound a little less offensive/shallow/mean/whatever.
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I'm not MrSquicky, but I'm willing to be that the process he describes is at least partly unconscious.
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Whoa. I no more meant that eros held generalized prejudicial views of any of those groups (let alone all of them), than he did of Sharpie when he wrote "or fill in your own favorite demographic about which you hold a generalized negative stereotype."
I suppose you will say that "you" was a generalized "you" -- but that is exactly the problem with some of the thinking on this thread.
I share Sharpie's surprise that so many of you (a) readily ascribe inferior character (sloth, willful ignorance, gluttony) to overweight people, (b) admit it, and (c) justify it six ways from Sunday by saying it is true of most fat people (who says?) or that it is self-evident (who would choose to be fat if they had the willpower to avoid it?).
That eros equates these attitudes to attitudes of people who generalize their hate or fear of other "stereotypes" only reinforces my point.
posted
(Maybe I shouldn't be so surprised at (b), above -- it is cool that Hatrack consistently allows people to speak their minds in a fair forum.)
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All of this discussion about being less likely to being friends with fat people makes me think about my own inclinations. I will admit that the disparaging thoughts have entered my mind when encountering fat or simply unattractive people. I try to make them as short of thoughts as possible, and it doesn't happen all the time. In fact, it seems to be correlated to people having a certain manner of dress and neatness about them, which I am more attracted to on a base level.
It is not something that I ultimately judge people on, I make a conscious decision to judge people on their own behavior. But I will admit that the thoughts, albeit fleeting, are there. But I try to get past that. (I often think it is incredibly ironic, considering I am a larger woman myself.)
But what I find incredibly interesting is how much attitude and dress and manner has to do with people's perceptions of you. There is a woman in my office who is quite large--but she does not act like it. In fact, it is a surprising thing to think of her in that way. She is bubbly and loudly converses and wears clothing that is just the right amount of loud (bright colors, etc.). She has a great amount of presence, and it has all to do with her personality, and I would be surprised if people who know her would describe her as a large woman. It's so far apart from what she is and presents herself as.
But I would venture that I am seen in a completely different way. I bet my size is one of the first things people would think of to describe me, even though I'm smaller than this other woman. I think it has a lot to do with the different way that I act, and the more "frumpy" way of dressing. (I need to get some new clothes, but they're expensive.)
So fat isn't the end all be all of friendships. I would even venture that MrSquicky would have no hesitation whatsoever to be friends with the woman in my office--he'd probably even be surprised to remember her size.
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quote:Perhaps instead of saying you are less likely to be friends with fat people, you could say I don't have many fat friends because we aren't often in the same sorts of situations, since I'm an active guy.
That's not true though. I meet lots of people of all different types in many different situations. And I'm a friendly guy. I'm also self-aware enough to realize that when I meet people, I'm evaluating them on a set of standards and make the decision about whether or not I'm going to put effort into seeing them again based on how they measure up. On that set, being fat is a mild negative. Being obese is a stronger negative.
Some of the underlying traits that are found in many (but by no means all) fat (or especially) obese people are, however, so negative as to pretty much be deal breakers. Ultimately, I'm a great deal more put off by mental obesity (a characteristic that is neither possessed by all obese people nor absent from non-obese ones) than I am by physical obesity.
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I don't believe that the way our society in general treats fat people is at all fair. I don't hold with mean-spirited ridicule at all. But on the other hand, I don't like it when people deny responsiblity for their choices or say that it's wrong to view being fat/obese as an undesirable thing.
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Sad that MrSquickly is unlikely to consider me worthy of friendship as I have often found him admirable.
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quote:Whoa. I no more meant that eros held generalized prejudicial views of any of those groups (let alone all of them), than he did of Sharpie when he wrote "or fill in your own favorite demographic about which you hold a generalized negative stereotype."
I suppose you will say that "you" was a generalized "you" -- but that is exactly the poroblem with some of the thinking on this thread.
No, I meant exactly what I said, and I meant Sharpie specifically: everyone is guilty of participating, consciously or unconsciously, in pandering to negative stereotypes (read: ANY stereotypes). I maintain that anyone who claims otherwise is kidding themselves or flat out lying.
quote:I share Sharpie's surprise that so many of you (a) readily ascribe inferior character (sloth, willful ignorance, gluttony) to overweight people, (b) admit it, and (c) justify it six ways from Sunday by saying it is true of most fat people (who says?) or that it is self-evident (who would choose to be fat if they had the willpower to avoid it?).
Generalizations are just that: generalizations. Using them creates problems, but how do you avoid ever using any? Even the act of avoiding the use of generalizations requires acknowledging them.
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quote:Sad that MrSquickly is unlikely to consider me worthy of friendship as I have often found him admirable.
See. I don't deserve that, but even expressing the opinion that being fat is something I see as undesirable apparently makes me into someone who hates fat people and can't see any other aspects to them, no matter how many times I contradict this.
The thinking needs to change on all sides.
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quote:I think you could make the argument that you're basing your friendships on the mutual love of physical activity, but since you are writing them off as potential friends simply by looking at them, I think it is immensely fair to say that you're basing your friendships on appearance.
Except I'm not writing them off as friends.
Often, when I make a decision, say, to pursue a friendship with someone, I base it on many different factors that may have positive or negative impacts. To me, someone being obese has a negative impact on whether I'm going to try to become friends with them. This is not to say that they may not have a whole mess of positive traits. It's just one aspect of who they are, but it is one I consider a negative.
I can more or less agree with that. But to qualify things I have had MANY overweights friends of various extremities my entire life. I do not see obesity as a positive trait (I do not know of anyone who would say its desireable) and its not simply different. To me its the result of usually poor decision making. When I turned 21 my metabolism suddenly started slowing down and I gained about 40 lbs. I have a little gut now, and I personally do not think it adds to the image I project to others or to myself. I certainly thought I was too skinny for my 6'5 frame when I was 155, but I think now I am alittle over my ideal weight.
I have forced myself to eat just alittle differently and I am going to get on an exercise routine. Being alittle overweigh is not that bad, but being so badly out of shape is a real problem to me.
My fiance and I checked our blood pressure and I was still well within fine, she however had DANGEROUSLY high blood pressure.
I am saddened that overweight people are often the bunt of jokes and other forms of redicule. It was hard for me to see my younger brother endure hell for several years because he is excessively fat, excessively vocal of his opinions, excessively insensitive, and excessively loud when he speaks. But society I have found is perfectly willing to poke fun at all forms of excess. People who are intentionally ignorant are made fun of all the time. People who work too much are looked at as uptight. We laugh at the excessively lazy. If you want to laugh at the excessively wealthy and endulgent watch that show, "Sweet 16."
Watching that show makes me want chew shards of glass.
It might be just me but I have yet to see a fat person excercise and eat their way back to a healthy situation and regret doing so. I feel empathy for those who have been dealt a difficult hand in this regard. People are not born equal. Before I turned 21 I could eat whatever I wanted and I still remained skinny, my brother could eat the exact same thing (although his candy/icecream intake was certainly higher than mine) and he would gain weight.
I've yet to decide not to be friendly or even friends with a person because of their weight. But if they complain to me that their weight has caused them any sort of grief, my response is always the same, "You would be better off if you made some lifestyle changes."
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But what is the solution to the problem of generalization? Personalization? Education?
When some of us try to make it personal -- when I say, wait, you can't talk about "fat people" like that, because there is no such person as HypotheticalRevoltingFatPerson, there is person A, and B, and my beloved child Chris, who all have different lives and goals and issues and strengths, the response seems to be "well, everyone has stereotypes." Eh? If I thought I knew anything, it was that saying something was a stereotype was NOT a defense.
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That's not quite what I meant. The way our society views obese people needs to change, but so does the way many obese people view themselves and others.
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Also, I judge people. Everyone judges people and the standards and methods we use are far from perfect. I try, as best as I am able, to avoid many of the common traps of judging (like, for example, not admitting that you judge) and make as fair judgements as I can. As part of this, I try to understand the criteria that I use for these mostly sub-conscious judgements. I try to remain open to new interpretations.
edit: Sharpie, again, I don't judge people solely based on their weight. I do, however, factor it into my decisions. Of course, I also include information, if I have it, about their attempts to control their weight. I may make serious mistakes in judging people, but as I can see it, the alternative is to not judge at all, which I don't see as tenable. I try to be as fair as possible and to be open to alternative views. Other than that, I don't see what I could do.
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quote:Sad that MrSquickly is unlikely to consider me worthy of friendship as I have often found him admirable.
See. I don't deserve that, but even expressing the opinion that being fat is something I see as undesirable apparently makes me into someone who hates fat people and can't see any other aspects to them, no matter how many times I contradict this.
The thinking needs to change on all sides.
Perhaps I didn't make clear that I was not being sarcastic. If anything, you should take that as a compliment. I do think that you are an admirable person - you write really well and have a lot of opinions that I find worthwhile - even on the rare occasion that I don't agree with them. You are someone whose friendship I would likely value, should I ever meet you.
So it makes me sad that, because I am overweight, that you would be unlikely to value mine. Not suggesting that you should change your opinion, rather regretting that something I consider to be a minor fault in myself should have such consequences.
quote: I don't hate fat people, but neither am I going to treat them like anyone else. Because they are different.
I find them unpleasant to look at. As someone who plays sports 4 or 5 days out of a week, I am less likely to be interested in developing a friendship with them. While this is by no means a set thing, I have found that the fat people I know tend to be lazier, mentally and physically, and less up for going out and doing things. Also, I don't like listening to people tell me how hard it is to watch what they eat and exercise for 30 minutes a day, 5 days a week.
This is not to say that I shun fat people, nor do I heap scorn on them. But I see being fat, in many cases, as less attractive in itself and often indicative of underlying things that I also find less attractive. It's much the same as with smokers. I don't date and am less likely to develop friendships with either. If I were looking to hire someone for a job and two candidates had equal credentials, I'd give the job to the person who wasn't fat or didn't smoke. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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I feel no need to avoid generalizing lies about overweight people when I am with Sharpie's son Chris, because his nature is so clear to me.
Just like anyone I get to know, he is a whole person to me, and I feel no inclination to fill in the blanks with derogatory generalized labels that I may have absorbed from goodness knows where.
I carry lessons like this forward with me, so that as I encounter people of every shape, color, etc., I am increasingly ready to recognize and appreciate their good qualities, potential, uniqueness, skills, superiority, etc.
I don't deny that I engage in stereotypical thinking -- but unlike some, I do keep trying to 'get over it.'
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quote:Ok, so the people who are naturally skinny or have stereotypically "perfect" figures should be made to feel that they are the freaks, who are putting unnecessary social pressure on people heavier than them simply by existing?
Didn't say that. But I submit that there is a qualitative difference between criticism (even sophomoric criticism) intended to level a playing field versus criticism designed to further insult someone who's already down. Compare reactions to the word "n****r" to reactions to the word "h****y," just as an example.
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quote: When some of us try to make it personal -- when I say, wait, you can't talk about "fat people" like that, because there is no such person as HypotheticalRevoltingFatPerson, there is person A, and B, and my beloved child Chris, who all have different lives and goals and issues and strengths, the response seems to be "well, everyone has stereotypes." Eh? If I thought I knew anything, it was that saying something was a stereotype was NOT a defense.
Let's try this another way.
Terrorists have a stereotype. There are inevitably exceptions. I'm willing to bet that you view them as HypotheticalTerrorists, rather than, say, man-whose-home-was-raided-and-torn-apart-by-American-soldiers-who-now-hates-America and kid-whose-entire-family-was-murdered-by-Armenians-who-grew-up-indoctrinated-so-it's-not-his-fault, and they're all someone's beloved sons. Can you honestly tell me you intellectualize all the people you see/meet/interact with this way? How do you have time to do anything else?
That's all I'm going to say on this. I find it mind boggling that you don't understand what I'm talking about, and the necessity of using generalizations in every day life.
Edit to add:
quote: I don't deny that I engage in stereotypical thinking -- but unlike some, I do keep trying to 'get over it.'
Maybe I need to add that it's always worth striving to replace stereotypes about the people you meet with conclusions drawn from the way they really are. My bad, I assumed this was a pretty "NO FREAKIN' DUH" point.
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quote:Didn't say that. But I submit that there is a qualitative difference between criticism (even sophomoric criticism) intended to level a playing field versus criticism designed to further insult someone who's already down. Compare reactions to the word "n****r" to reactions to the word "h****y," just as an example.
Fair enough. I strongly disagree: I don't think you can qualify suffering, and attempting to do so is why we end up with parents who use lines like "There are starving children in Africa, so eat your food!"
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posted
I'm willing to bet that the world would be a much better place if we all tried to avoid using such generalizations.
Imagine how different we would be if we internalized this:
quote: man-whose-home-was-raided-and-torn-apart-by-American-soldiers-who-now-hates-America and kid-whose-entire-family-was-murdered-by-Armenians-who-grew-up-indoctrinated-so-it's-not-his-fault, and they're all someone's beloved sons.
We should all try harder to do that.
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quote: I didn't claim it was. However, I don't see how the differences between them are significant when deciding when advice is, or is not, appropriate.
I was trying to say that advice in the weight case probably won't be taken as well because there are infinitely more variables in their individual case than in a smoker's, where the most differences could be smoking to deal with deeper psychological issues which, obviously, vary. And with weight, there are all sorts on environmental, physical, and psycological factors that should be addressed by physicians Posts: 3636 | Registered: Oct 2001
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Except that each of your long names is simply a different kind of stereotype, assuming you're not talking about known individuals. I'm not sure what that gets us.
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It's remembering that there are human beings behind the stereotypes that are just as real and complicated and everything else as we are.
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It gets us a little closer to understanding the motivations of the hypothetical terrorist. Not all the way, not even close, but every little bit helps.
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quote:Except that each of your long names is simply a different kind of stereotype, assuming you're not talking about known individuals. I'm not sure what that gets us.
Me neither. Hence why I don't think of "overweight people" as "someone's-beloved-son-who's-tried-all-kinds-of-standard-treatment-for-obesity-and-isn't-having-any-success-so-it's-not-his-fault." Edit to add: I allow for the possibility that this (or any number of other legitimate reasons for being overweight) could be the case, but I find it a waste of time to attempt to humanize unindentified individuals in a group.
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This might be a bit dated, but I've wanted to post this since I discovered this thread:
quote: Being thin. Probably not a subject that you ever expected to read about on this website, but my recent trip to London got me thinking...
It started in the car on the way to Leavesden film studios. I whiled away part of the journey reading a magazine that featured several glossy photographs of a very young woman who is either seriously ill or suffering from an eating disorder (which is, of course, the same thing); anyway, there is no other explanation for the shape of her body. She can talk about eating absolutely loads, being terribly busy and having the world's fastest metabolism until her tongue drops off (hooray! Another couple of ounces gone!), but her concave stomach, protruding ribs and stick-like arms tell a different story. This girl needs help, but, the world being what it is, they're sticking her on magazine covers instead. All this passed through my mind as I read the interview, then I threw the horrible thing aside.
But blow me down if the subject of girls and thinness didn't crop up shortly after I got out of the car. I was talking to one of the actors and, somehow or other, we got onto the subject of a girl he knows (not any of the Potter actresses – somebody from his life beyond the films) who had been dubbed 'fat' by certain charming classmates. (Could they possibly be jealous that she knows the boy in question? Surely not!)
'But,' said the actor, in honest perplexity, 'she is really not fat.'
'"Fat" is usually the first insult a girl throws at another girl when she wants to hurt her,' I said; I could remember it happening when I was at school, and witnessing it among the teenagers I used to teach. Nevertheless, I could see that to him, a well-adjusted male, it was utterly bizarre behaviour, like yelling 'thicko!' at Stephen Hawking.
His bemusement at this everyday feature of female existence reminded me how strange and sick the 'fat' insult is. I mean, is 'fat' really the worst thing a human being can be? Is 'fat' worse than 'vindictive', 'jealous', 'shallow', 'vain', 'boring' or 'cruel'? Not to me; but then, you might retort, what do I know about the pressure to be skinny? I'm not in the business of being judged on my looks, what with being a writer and earning my living by using my brain...
I went to the British Book Awards that evening. After the award ceremony I bumped into a woman I hadn't seen for nearly three years. The first thing she said to me? 'You've lost a lot of weight since the last time I saw you!'
'Well,' I said, slightly nonplussed, 'the last time you saw me I'd just had a baby.'
What I felt like saying was, 'I've produced my third child and my sixth novel since I last saw you. Aren't either of those things more important, more interesting, than my size?' But no – my waist looked smaller! Forget the kid and the book: finally, something to celebrate!
So the issue of size and women was (ha, ha) weighing on my mind as I flew home to Edinburgh the next day. Once up in the air, I opened a newspaper and my eyes fell, immediately, on an article about the pop star Pink.
Her latest single, 'Stupid Girls', is the antidote-anthem for everything I had been thinking about women and thinness. 'Stupid Girls' satirises the talking toothpicks held up to girls as role models: those celebrities whose greatest achievement is un-chipped nail polish, whose only aspiration seems to be getting photographed in a different outfit nine times a day, whose only function in the world appears to be supporting the trade in overpriced handbags and rat-sized dogs.
Maybe all this seems funny, or trivial, but it's really not. It's about what girls want to be, what they're told they should be, and how they feel about who they are. I've got two daughters who will have to make their way in this skinny-obsessed world, and it worries me, because I don't want them to be empty-headed, self-obsessed, emaciated clones; I'd rather they were independent, interesting, idealistic, kind, opinionated, original, funny – a thousand things, before 'thin'. And frankly, I'd rather they didn't give a gust of stinking chihuahua flatulence whether the woman standing next to them has fleshier knees than they do. Let my girls be Hermiones, rather than Pansy Parkinsons. Let them never be Stupid Girls. Rant over.
--J.K. Rowling (Once again proving that I can't imagine the world without comparing it to Harry Potter in some way).
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quote:Maybe all this seems funny, or trivial, but it's really not. It's about what girls want to be, what they're told they should be, and how they feel about who they are. I've got two daughters who will have to make their way in this skinny-obsessed world, and it worries me, because I don't want them to be empty-headed, self-obsessed, emaciated clones; I'd rather they were independent, interesting, idealistic, kind, opinionated, original, funny – a thousand things, before 'thin'. And frankly, I'd rather they didn't give a gust of stinking chihuahua flatulence whether the woman standing next to them has fleshier knees than they do. Let my girls be Hermiones, rather than Pansy Parkinsons. Let them never be Stupid Girls. Rant over.
quote:Maybe I need to add that it's always worth striving to replace stereotypes about the people you meet with conclusions drawn from the way they really are. My bad, I assumed this was a pretty "NO FREAKIN' DUH" point.
Not at all. Especially when someone pretty much rants at you to "replace stereotypes about the people you meet with conclusions drawn from the way people really are", and your response is "get over it."
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quote:Let my girls be Hermiones, rather than Pansy Parkinsons.
See, I've always pictured Hermione as the smart-but-uncute girl who gives up and conforms to society's expectations in book 4 by using magic to straighten her teeth, pretty herself up, and whatnot (at which point she is finally acknowledged by all the boys as attractive).
I've always pictured Pansy Parkinson as hideously ugly. I can't remember if there's actual description contradicting this but if there is, I ignored it.
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quote:Not at all. Especially when someone pretty much rants at you to "replace stereotypes about the people you meet with conclusions drawn from the way people really are", and your response is "get over it."
No, Sharpie wasn't asking us to replace stereotypes about the people we meet, she was asking us to replace stereotypes for her son because her son is different, and to not use stereotypes, period.
To that, my response is "get over it."
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quote:It's remembering that there are human beings behind the stereotypes that are just as real and complicated and everything else as we are.
But it's remembering via falsehood, at least to the extent all stereotypes are falsehood.
quote:It gets us a little closer to understanding the motivations of the hypothetical terrorist. Not all the way, not even close, but every little bit helps.
I'm not sure it does. It's a made up story about the motivation of a particular terrorist. (Again, I'm assuming we don't know that the person being referred to fits either description.)
It also carries the grave danger that such motivations will be supplied from our perspective and culture.
It's one thing to think of reasons an insurgent might oppose us. It's another to apply these reasons as names to people whose stories we don't know.
We can be pretty sure that there's at least one terrorist who matches each of those stories. But there's also at least one who joined the insurgency to indulge a preference for violence.
quote:I don't want them to be empty-headed, self-obsessed, emaciated clones
And speaking of stereotypes about thin people. Why does anyone love this? Would someone love a sentence starting, "I don't want my daughters to grow up to be slothful, self-ignoring..."
I'm not quite sure why Hermione's brains are incompatible with a particular look.
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Errr...I don't think anyone here is advocating forming an impression of someone and then never looking beyond that impression.
Part of the problem I have with the way this idea is often presented, though, is that it often boils down to "listen to people's excuses for their faults." The self-stories that people tell often don't match up with reality. Even when they do, one's that cast the person in the role of a passive victim are much less interesting to me than one's that don't.
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Dagonee, I'm not being clear. It isn't about guessing which group of labels to assign. It is remembering that each of us (fat or terrorist) can't be summed up by "fat" or "terrorist". That our stories are more complicated and that we don't know what those stories are. That we can't assume motivation and write people off thinking that we know all we need to know from reading the label.
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Nobody. It is something that we do, though. I just got excited about the idea of not doing it. Although someone (can't find who) did suggest that the world would stop if we didn't.
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Dagonee, I'm not being clear. It isn't about guessing which group of labels to assign. It is remembering that each of us (fat or terrorist) can't be summed up by "fat" or "terrorist". That our stories are more complicated and that we don't know what those stories are. That we can't assume motivation and write people off thinking that we know all we need to know from reading the label.
OK - I like that goal. It's not quite what I got from the original post on the subject, so thank you for the clarification.
I do think there's a tendency to erroneously treat acknowledgment of a single attribute as labeling - that is, to think that if a speaker says one thing about a person then that speaker has spoken comprehensively on that person. It's usually not the case in my experience.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
Eros, you really interpreted my post/s that way?
In case anyone else did: No, I was saying that the stranger you are repulsed by, that you judge, is not some cardboard character. Replace the words "fat person" with anybody's name.
"No offense, but I just don't like that kind of person; it's just the way I am." This kind of thinking dehumanizes people (including the speaker), and for a lot of us it dehumanizes people we care about a lot. I think that kind of statement should be countered every time we encounter it. We should be outraged and offended, and we should express it. I definitely don't think I should "get over it." That way leads to ignorance and narrow-mindedness.
Posts: 628 | Registered: Nov 1999
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quote:Maybe I need to add that it's always worth striving to replace stereotypes about the people you meet with conclusions drawn from the way they really are. My bad, I assumed this was a pretty "NO FREAKIN' DUH" point.
Not at all. Especially when someone pretty much rants at you to "replace stereotypes about the people you meet with conclusions drawn from the way people really are", and your response is "get over it."
No, Sharpie wasn't asking us to replace stereotypes about the people we meet, she was asking us to replace stereotypes for her son because her son is different, and to not use stereotypes, period.
Given your NO DUH point of "it's always worth striving to replace stereotypes" I'm not sure why you now object to someone suggesting "to not use stereotypes."
Posts: 431 | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:I whiled away part of the journey reading a magazine that featured several glossy photographs of a very young woman who is either seriously ill or suffering from an eating disorder (which is, of course, the same thing); anyway, there is no other explanation for the shape of her body. She can talk about eating absolutely loads, being terribly busy and having the world's fastest metabolism until her tongue drops off (hooray! Another couple of ounces gone!), but her concave stomach, protruding ribs and stick-like arms tell a different story. This girl needs help...
My ribs protrude and my arms are certainly not thick. The implication (since I'm male) that I must therefore have some sort of eating disorder is pretty insulting. And, as Dagonee notes, she takes it even further. Given that we just talked about this a page or two ago, I'm surprised to see people heaping praise on Rowling.
quote:Originally posted by Dagonee: (Again, I'm assuming we don't know that the person being referred to fits either description.)
Okay. I made the reverse assumption -- that is, that we know the description is accurate. The idea is that you update your impression of someone as you learn more about them, which is something I think most people do.
Posts: 10886 | Registered: Feb 2000
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