quote:The idea is that you update your impression of someone as you learn more about them, which is something I think most people do.
I totally agree with this.
I once tried to write a story about a society where no person could be referred to by anything but their name or by a formal temporary naming of the person when identity is unknown. The idea was that all description dehumanized (not something I subscribe to, but I do believe that much language that refers to people dehumanizes). Too cumbersome to pull off, though.
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quote:Maybe I need to add that it's always worth striving to replace stereotypes about the people you meet with conclusions drawn from the way they really are. My bad, I assumed this was a pretty "NO FREAKIN' DUH" point.
Not at all. Especially when someone pretty much rants at you to "replace stereotypes about the people you meet with conclusions drawn from the way people really are", and your response is "get over it."
No, Sharpie wasn't asking us to replace stereotypes about the people we meet, she was asking us to replace stereotypes for her son because her son is different, and to not use stereotypes, period.
Given your NO DUH point of "it's always worth striving to replace stereotypes" I'm not sure why you now object to someone suggesting "to not use stereotypes."
Holy...seriously, re-read my post(s). You're leaving out some pretty important words.
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quote:Originally posted by MrSquicky: Errr...I don't think anyone here is advocating forming an impression of someone and then never looking beyond that impression.
No...but you did give (at least me) the idea that looking beyond that first impression would be difficult or unlikely for you. Again, I am not saying that you should change. And it is good that you are honest about it. I imagine the honesty leads to much less deeply hurt feelings.
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quote:I also advocate, when we have to guess, guessing the one that give the benefit of the doubt.
I'd rather go with the odds when I have to guess. I reserve the benefit of the doubt for people I know well enough to extend it to.
Otherwise I'd have to empty my pockets to winos and panhandlers everyday. Some of whom no doubt really do want to spend the money on food. The majority, though, run right to the liquor store.
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quote:Originally posted by Sharpie: Eros, you really interpreted my post/s that way?
In case anyone else did: No, I was saying that the stranger you are repulsed by, that you judge, is not some cardboard character. Replace the words "fat person" with anybody's name.
Right, and I'm saying that yes, they are just a cardboard character until proven otherwise, and I'm pointing out that you think that way as well, because everyone does.
Edit to add: leaving the office now, I'm not ignoring you.
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Is it really so tough and time consuming to remind yourself that, even though you don't know all the dimensions, there are dimensions?
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quote:I also advocate, when we have to guess, guessing the one that give the benefit of the doubt.
I'd rather go with the odds when I have to guess. I reserve the benefit of the doubt for people I know well enough to extend it to.
Otherwise I'd have to empty my pockets to winos and panhandlers everyday. Some of whom no doubt really do want to spend the money on food. The majority, though, run right to the liquor store.
There is a difference between giving someone the benefit of the doubt, and acting in a way that is detrimental to your own well-being.
Also, while you may be correct more often than someone who gives them the money (or, better, buys them a sandwich, or keeps meal-replacement bars with them to give to such people), I don't happen to feel that "being right most often" is all that admirable a character trait when compared to "being generous." (Mind, I lean more toward the former than the latter; I just don't think it's a good thing. And it is something about myself that I'm working on.)
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I do offer to get them whatever it is they need, be it food, gas, or whatever. I just don't give them cash.
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I've been asked more than once on the way into McDonald's for some cash for lunch. I tell them I'm paying with a credit card. The times I've offered to buy them lunch, I've always been turned down with a "nah, forget it."
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quote:Originally posted by El JT de Spang: I do offer to get them whatever it is they need, be it food, gas, or whatever. I just don't give them cash.
That's pretty cool. I wouldn't advocate giving cash to most people you don't know (without some sort of reference, at least).
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I've had one person take me up on an offer to buy what she wanted the money for. (A pepsi, as it happens.) The more frequent response is "I can buy my own food." (Not with my money, you can't.) However, when I have food with me (fruit or a granola bar, usually) and offer it, it has always been accepted.
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When I've had food with me, that's usually been accepted. When I've offered to buy them lunch, that has usually been turned down.
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quote:I whiled away part of the journey reading a magazine that featured several glossy photographs of a very young woman who is either seriously ill or suffering from an eating disorder (which is, of course, the same thing); anyway, there is no other explanation for the shape of her body. She can talk about eating absolutely loads, being terribly busy and having the world's fastest metabolism until her tongue drops off (hooray! Another couple of ounces gone!), but her concave stomach, protruding ribs and stick-like arms tell a different story. This girl needs help...
My ribs protrude and my arms are certainly not thick. The implication (since I'm male) that I must therefore have some sort of eating disorder is pretty insulting. And, as Dagonee notes, she takes it even further. Given that we just talked about this a page or two ago, I'm surprised to see people heaping praise on Rowling.
I think the issue she took with the magazine was that it was promoting this body type as the ideal. Sure, it might come naturally to some people, but promoting it like that causes eating disorders in young women striving to become what they're told is perfect. I have no problem with that part of what's she saying, and frankly it didn't even occur to me that a naturally thin person might take offense at it.
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quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: Although someone (can't find who) did suggest that the world would stop if we didn't.
That might have been me. I wrote in response to your assertion that I believe stereotypes are an important part of decision making. But once I posted, I noticed the discussion had moved on signficantly and that my response wasn't directly relevant anyway and so I deleted my post. Bad etiquette, I know, but I was hoping no one had noticed.
For the record, I think that if we refused to categorize people into groups and/or act according to generalized statements about those groups, we would cripple our ability to act. We naively desire our actions to be based on perfect information and assumptions, but if we wait for a perfect understanding (of people, of situations, of ourselves) we will never act. It's a central paradox of decision theory research: how beneficial/detrimental is considering more information.
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I think that we shouldn't assume that thin, good-looking people are obsessed with being thin and good-looking. Some of you are just lucky!
I do think that, because as a society we are disproportionately obsessed with being thin and good-looking, it is not an unnatural response. That I think it is reactionary does not mean I excuse it.
quote:Sure, it might come naturally to some people, but promoting it like that causes eating disorders in young women striving to become what they're told is perfect.
It's possible to be thin without having an eating disorder, just like it's possible to be fat without being lazy. You weren't saying otherwise, but I wanted to put this out there anyway.
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quote: and people blame fellow passengers for their discomfort?
I certainly blame people for exacerbating an already uncomfortable experience.
Really? I assume you meant this directed at obese people in general, as opposed to the other breaches of airplane etiquette.
the airline sold me a seat and didn't put any conditions on me. Even if I'm at my ideal weight, I have broader shoulders than the seat size allows. I don't HAVE to try to give you more space, but I do...
Basically, I'm stuck taking the plane because it's necessary to my livelihood. There comes a point where I don't have a choice but to fly. And even though I'm losing weight now, the sad fact is that I can't lose it before I get on my next plane flight.
I'd even go so far as to apologize if I crowded a person on an airplane, but there's not a heck of a lot I can do about it that would make your ride any more pleasant.
So, what do you suggest?
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quote:Originally posted by Katarain: I think the issue she took with the magazine was that it was promoting this body type as the ideal.
She should have phrased it as such, then, because as it is, that isn't what she wrote. Like OSC, she's a good writer -- I have a very hard time believing that her choice of phrasing wasn't deliberate.
quote:Originally posted by Katarain: I have no problem with that part of what's she saying, and frankly it didn't even occur to me that a naturally thin person might take offense at it.
It's every bit as offensive as some of the things you've taken offence to in this thread. The most obvious analogy that comes to my mind is the equation of obesity with being slovenly, or slothful, or gluttonous, versus the equation of being skinny with having a physical or psychological disorder. The difference is that in this case the invective isn't directed at the same group. I don't much like the notion that it's okay to belittle thin people, but do it to fat people and you'd better watch out! Then again, I've actually seen that Rowling piece before, and I've seen her praised for it before, so I guess I shouldn't be surprised that people still seem to love it.
I largely agree with both KMB's and JT's posts above.
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twinky doesn't fall into the "geez, that perseon is skinny" category because he wears baggy clothes. Honestly, though I've never asked, I suspect this is part of the reason he wears baggy clothes.
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Tangent: A friend of mine has recently developed an illness that caused her to lose a lot of weight. She was in shape and athletic before, now she is a skeleton with skin. It is actually frightening to look at her, and to see the bones jutting out through her skin. (Seriously, compared to how she looks right now Callista Flockhart looks chubby. (And so does Twinky.)) She says the most frightening thing for her is the number of people who come up to her and say how great she looks or ask how she managed to lose so much weight. She's working with a dietician and a nutritionist to try to maintain enough body fat to survive while her illness is being treated, and apparently many people find this attractive.
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Preliminary note: I'm using this as an example of the pitfalls associated with even speaking on the topic of body image, and not because I think there's anything wrong with what Kate said. I certainly don't think she had any negative motive at all.
quote:I think that we shouldn't assume that thin, good-looking people are obsessed with being thin and good-looking. Some of you are just lucky!
Look at the two options outlined in this quote. Either the person is obsessed with being think or lucky. This superficially excludes the possibility of working hard to stay in shape yet also not being obsessed being thin.
This is a rather innocuous statement, meant as a lighthearted joke. However, it's easy to see how it could provoke the response, "I work hard at it - it's not luck, and I'm not obsessed." Which, when heard by someone who is struggling mightily to lose weight and failing, could easily be interpreted as a statement that they are not working hard enough.
It can easily deteriorate from there, caused simply by a very innocent remark coupled with a person who doesn't want their hard work dismissed as either obsession or luck.
Just an observation I had about how dangerous language can be.
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Eh? I wasn't insulted. That was definitely true in high school, though it's become less true over the last couple of years. Still, I don't generally wear very tight clothes, because my ribs are indeed quite clearly visible.
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Dagonee, I did worry about that phrase. I did think about leaving it out - should have. I'm glad that it was taken as it was meant.
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My intent was to point out possibilities to both speakers and listeners, not to say it should have been left out. No one can look at every single thing they say and cypher out what would be offensive.
So if two people find themselves three or four exchanges into something like, maybe they can back out and give each other the benefit of the doubt.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:I'd be interested in seeing responses to the criticisms of J. K. Rowling's piece.
Oh believe me, I've already spoken before on how I react to this piece. It makes me not want to buy any more books by this woman because I think she's horribly rude.
I have known one model in my life. She was naturally tall, and she made good money modeling, nothing major, local catalog shoots and fashion shows, particularly bridal shows. She had neither an eating disorder nor was she "lucky." She ate well, eating healthy foods and worked out at least an hour every day to maintain her modeling figure.
It's incredibly insulting for Rowling and others to refer to people like her her as "either seriously ill or suffering from an eating disorder (which is, of course, the same thing); anyway, there is no other explanation for the shape of her body."
Yes there is another explanation - a woman who is naturally tall and inclined to thinness but eats healthily and works out to maintain her figure. Rowling is a jerk in that piece, it made me decidedly not like her at all.
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The skinniest girl in my graduating class got just as much ridicule as the fattest one. Perhaps more.
Her name was Rachel, and the things I heard told about her were beyond cruel. She was a really sweet girl too, and deserved none of it.
I'm sure I am not the only one who recognizes the irony of people requesting empathy for the overweight in the same thread they show none for underweight people.
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Skinny males - especially in middle/junior/high school - often get ridiculed for being weak, wimps, geeks, scrawny, too lazy to work out, an easy target for bullying. That would be me, then. Busty, skinny girls in that same period are often assumed to be sluts, and get treated that way even when (and sometimes because) they are not. That would have been Teres, way back when. Both situations do interesting things for your self-esteem. Now we're both in the fat end of the pool, dealing with a whole different set of prejudices.
Come right down to it, I'm not wildly fond of people, in general. Herd mentality does not favor the different.
[ July 11, 2006, 11:07 PM: Message edited by: Chris Bridges ]
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quote:Originally posted by Chris Bridges: Skinny males - especially in middle/junior/high school - often get ridiculed for being weak, wimps, geeks, scrawny, too lazy to work out, an easy target for bullying. That would be me, then. Busty, skinny girls in that same period are often assumed to be sluts, and get treated that way even when (and sometimes because) they are not. That would have been Teres, way back when. Both situations do interesting things for your self-esteem. Now we're both in the fat end of the pool, dealing with a whole different set of prejudices.
Come right down to it, I'm not wildly fond of people, in general. Herd mentality does not favor the different.
Yeah, my Michelle's the same way. She's thin and busty, and when she was sixteen and wore a turtleneck sweater to an Indian-Christian church, she was accused by four women of being a "slut" because their husbands wouldn't stop staring at her.
The longer I live, the more I wish a) everyone were legally mandated to carry swords, and b) duels were legally possible. Also, I'm coming to find I hate everyone.
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I once tried to write a story about a society where no person could be referred to by anything but their name or by a formal temporary naming of the person when identity is unknown. The idea was that all description dehumanized (not something I subscribe to, but I do believe that much language that refers to people dehumanizes). Too cumbersome to pull off, though. [/QB]
The problem with this idea goes far further than being too cumbersome to pull off, it fights against the basic design of our brains. The human brain is designed to find patterns, to seek out similarities and differences. One of the things that you learn as a scientist is that you can't trust your brain because it will find patterns in things even when no patterns exist. This is why we rely on mathematical and statistical tests to validate the patterns we think we see.
This function of our brain is prerequisite for language and communication. If we couldn't categorize things which are similar but not identical, we would have to have a different word for every single item. Whenever we saw anything we hadn't seen before, we would have no words to describe it. But the problem goes even deeper, because no two people say the same word in exactly the same way. The very first thing our brains do when we are babies is to begin categorizing sounds. We can't learn language until we can identify that "love" spoken by Mom means the same thing as "love spoken by Dad and yet "rub" means something different. As babies, our brains begin to map "similar" sounds to the same region of our brains, by the time we are adults, this becomes hardwired and we can no hear difference we could hear as children.
Adult Japanese can't hear the difference be "r" and "l" because their brains have been trained to map these sounds to the same part of the brain. Adult English speakers have a very difficult time hearing the tones in Chinese because our brains have been trained to ignore those differences. Try as I may, I can't hear the difference between the German "a" and the german "aa" sound because my brain maps the two sounds to the same class.
The point is, that while its nice to say that we should never group or classify people, its not going to happend. Discrimination (i.e. grouping and classifying) is what our brains are designed to do. While we can struggle consciously to see past our natural inclination to discriminate, its unreasonable to suggest that we should never classify people.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: Ah. See, I just question the motivation of people who tease skinny people.
People who tease fat people do it because they're revolted. Do you think people tease skinny people for the same reason?
I very disappointed Tom, you are usually capable of more empathy than this and better insight.
The adult men who I know, tease people who they consider to be friends. Among men, teasing is a sign that you accepted as one of the gang. If they truly find you revolting, you won't get teased but you won't get invited to parties either.
Adult women generally do not tease each other. Its part of a dynamic I've had to learn as a women working in a male dominated field.
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Forgive me if this has already been posted. I looked but didn't see it.
I found it pertinent to the discussion but not immediately so.
"A math teacher has sued the Lawrence School District, claiming that he lost his shot at tenure and ultimately his job because of his weight." Continued here.Posts: 866 | Registered: Aug 2005
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Rabbit, I'm using "teasing" in this case -- and I suspect most people on this thread have been using it -- to refer to two completely separate sets of behaviors. Young kids tease. In general, adults do NOT tease; the sort of teasing that "different" people face as kids becomes something different by adulthood.
It's very true that adult men "tease" (in the grammar school sense) as a form of friendship. That sort of teasing is not the treatment that most fat men experience until they've already become someone's friend.
I'm not talking about just being singled out when you're young because you're different. That happens to just about everyone, for some reason or another -- being busty, being smart, having curly hair. I'm talking about being singled out your entire life because people are revolted by you. That happens to a much, much smaller set of individuals.
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quote:The problem with this idea goes far further than being too cumbersome to pull off, it fights against the basic design of our brains.
This was an SF storie, the ones with the strange language were aliens, and there were humans present to comment on how impossible it was.
quote:The point is, that while its nice to say that we should never group or classify people, its not going to happend. Discrimination (i.e. grouping and classifying) is what our brains are designed to do. While we can struggle consciously to see past our natural inclination to discriminate, its unreasonable to suggest that we should never classify people.
I totally agree. The story was going to a) point out that we must discriminate to function and b) demonstrate the harm it can cause.
quote:Originally posted by Xavier: I'm sure I am not the only one who recognizes the irony of people requesting empathy for the overweight in the same thread they show none for underweight people.
You definitely aren't the only one.
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