posted
I'm arguing that Ender loved her for twenty years, and he knows her better, and he's not an idiot, so there must be something to her that we don't see.
As for why I like her in Speaker, I think it's the same oh,-someone-needs-to-take-care-of-her tug.
[ March 17, 2005, 01:31 PM: Message edited by: Lady Jane ]
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You know, Kat, I think you're both. Of course, that's simply from observing your posts in the length of time we've known each other, but my gut tells me you're extremely idealistic.
Idealism often leads to cynicism. We want things in a certain way, and we need people to meet certain expectations. The more idealistic we are, the less likely people are to meet these expectations and more cynical we become of people in general. However, that doesn't mean that - dep down inside - we aren't still really, really hoping we'll find those people who will be everything we've ever wanted them to be, and more. The root is idealism, the result is cyncism.
I think that's why characters in books are so appealing. We can safely pick and choose from the discreet distance of 'it's JUST fiction', and then when we find that character that becomes more than simply fiction to us we have the luxury of filling in all the holes with what we want.
I've seen in some of your previous posts a tendency to not back down, not for the most obvious "need to be right" reasons, but because you have a certain (idealistic, from my seat) expectation of who you are and how you should be perceived. I think you would hate it if someone didn't see all of your decisions as being right as based on the precedent of "who you are," because you would hate for people to lose even a modicum of respect for you. I can appreciate this, but I think it ends up biting you in the long run.
In the case of Ender, as with anyone, you don't have to lose respect for people simply because they make bad decisions. The most important qualities of love, kindness, humility, joy, peace, self-control, etc... are sometimes obscured in individual circumstances, but that doesn't mean a person didn't try everything they had to reflect these qualities.
I know I'm in the minority when I say this, but "smart" isn't a virtue. It's most arbitrary. Wisdom, discernment - these are virtues, but they are based on experience and information which both take time to acquire. Making bad decisions actually goes a long way to acquire both of these things, and that means the people I love the most have done, are doing, or most likely are going to do exceptionally stupid things to themselves and others.
edit: I'm not sure why I decided to post all that. If you object to my arm-chair analysis, or find it unduly presumptuous (which it is), I'll take it down. I think I'm just musing out loud, and - as usual - talking out of my ass. But it's what I'm good at, so I continue to persist.
quote:I think you would hate it if someone didn't see all of your decisions as being right as based on the precedent of "who you are," because you would hate for people to lose even a modicum of respect for you. I can appreciate this, but I think it ends up biting you in the long run.
Aww...I'm wrong a lot, though. I admit I'm wrong. That doesn't really fit that characterization.
Hmm...maybe I'm different now from when I first came to Hatrack? I do fight a great deal less. I also don't really court opinion anymore. It's too ephemeral.
Oh, and sorry. I did change the added part after I thought about it a little bit. To sum up: Practical about most things. Very idealistic in two.
[ March 17, 2005, 01:53 PM: Message edited by: Lady Jane ]
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posted
Actually, there is a lot to that. I haven't been around for a while, and so my perceptions are going to be pretty retro. I've changed a TON in the last year, and I wouldn't at all be surprised if you have, too. We're about the same age, and I wouldn't be surprised if we're going through similar stuff.
FWIW - I've discovered I think while talking (and/or typing), not before, and so I've been doing far more observing-out-loud than ever. Posts: 7600 | Registered: Jan 2001
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posted
I've skipped a bit, but Ender fell in love with Novihna when she first called for a speaker, because she was the only person he knew, who as a child, felt responsible for bringing horrible destruction on someone she loved. He loved her because they shared that pain. And they were both intimately acquainted with Alien cultures.
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posted
That's fine. The characteristics you described do seem...young, and they do sound like me before, but I don't think they are true anymore.
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posted
Yes, I think it is true he identified with her then, but I don't think that's when he fell in love with her. I think she intrigued (sp?) him.
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We should totally make time to chat it up again sometime, Kat. We haven't talked in way too long. Posts: 7600 | Registered: Jan 2001
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posted
Kat, you keep saying that Ender isn't an idiot. Why do you keep saying that? When Ender acts like an idiot, you assume that there must be something hidden that we just can't see. The simpler answer is that even though he is beloved and very smart, he is still an idiot.
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quote: One is who you marry (the other is religion). I suppose on those topics I may be idealistic.
btw - I think these are the two topics it's MOST dangerous to be idealistic about. Idealism leaves very little room for error, and when you're so emotionally vested in something you already have a tendency to be unforgiving because you're so vulnerable to being hurt.
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posted
I don't think people can be classified as good or bad, smart or dumb. They're both. Novhina can be a raging, self-centered b$%^&. That doesn't preclude her from also being a loving, considerate person. We always see her when she's under stress, which she deals with by trying to control everything and distancingherself from everyone else. Of course, she's not going to be attractive. Stories show us the dramatic parts and she's particularly unsuited to deal with drama.
I was actually more upset with Ender's role in the marriage than Novhina's. He's supposed to be this super-insightful and ruthlessly forceful (when it's necessary) guy, but he totally wusses out whenever it comes to his wife, whcih is exactly the sort of behavior she doesn't need. She gets so screwed up because she's pathologically dominant. She needed someone to over-dominate her and not put up with her bs. She needed to learn that trying control everything makes it so you don't control anything. She needed to not be taken seriously when she went off on her "It's all about me" kicks. And it doesn't look like Ender did any of that.
It seems like (especially in the off-screen times) he went with the flow and tried not to rock the boat. Playing the submissive may be what it looked what Nohvina wanted, but it wasn't at all what she needed. Not to take away from her responsibility, but Ender knew the situation he was marrying into, but wa apparently unwilling to do what needed to be done. He failed her as a husband because he was content to be the nice guy and pretend that, because Novhina was a loving, tender person when she wasn't under stress, that she did need anything more than this nice guy.
No, I see what you are saying Sqiucky. But I think he just wanted to be the nice guy and screwed himself. (and her) I think he had enough of being the bad guy to last a lifetime.
posted
We definitely need to catch up. I'm never on AIM, but my e-mail works.
Hmmm...I don't agree about the religion part, especially. There is a difference between the way the Lord wants things to be and the way humans execute it, but that's okay. That's going to happen. If there's something wrong with the fundamental basis of the religion, then there's a problem.
Specifically, if Joseph Smith was lying and the Book of Mormon is just a collection of good ideas, that would not be okay, even if the church in general made me happy.
For marriage, you may be right, but I'd rather be idealistic there. I don't think I'm even idealistic by choice in that area - I mean, I have been engaged twice, and I meant it when I said yes. Something in me just couldn't do it, though. I'm all for participating in the game of life with all its bumps and bruises, but marrying the wrong person is just too colossally dumb to go through with it. On the other hand, I've mellowed about many things. Maybe I'll get married when I've mellowed enough that it doesn't matter to me anymore.
Hhmm...it is probably not a coincidence that the only things worth being idealistic about are the only things that will not change after the whistle blows and the game is over.
[ March 17, 2005, 02:23 PM: Message edited by: Lady Jane ]
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quote:Novhina can be a raging, self-centered b$%^&. That doesn't preclude her from also being a loving, considerate person. We always see her when she's under stress, which she deals with by trying to control everything and distancingherself from everyone else. Of course, she's not going to be attractive. Stories show us the dramatic parts and she's particularly unsuited to deal with drama.
I would agree, Squick.
However, I'm trying to understand the value of any fictional character's "off-screen" time, unless it is directly reflected in their subsequent "on-screen" moments.
quote: There is a difference between the way the Lord wants things to be and the way humans execute it, but that's okay. That's going to happen. If there's something wrong with the fundamental basis of the religion, then there's a problem.
Yes, I definitely agree. I'm not sure if it's the same within your theology, but within mine there is also room for error in how we currently understand theological truths. But again that's human error.
Also, in marriage: I think it's far better to have a certain measure of idealism before you get married than after. If you keep your idealism into your marriage, I personally believe you're in for a world of hurt.
I guess it's all in how the idealism is allocated.
posted
I think the off-screen stuff is relevant because Ender and Novhina's relationship can best be understood by this indirect stuff. OSC touches on it indirectly, I think, because that's the only way I think he can and still write keep it interesting. At a certain level, Ender's still that little boy who wants to avoid making his older brother mad at him. This comes out most clearly to me in his interactions, on-screen and projected off ones, with his wife. This, coupled with her explosive rages and isolationism, build up the core of their maritial problems and bleed over into their personal issues. Ender isn't just the innocent victim that some people seem to making him out to be. They fail each other. Or at least, that's how I see it.
Also, I don't know, keeping with indirection, there's this mystification that people can be very nice and, in other situations, very nasty. I was sort of aiming for explaining that too.
posted
Yeah, I agree that they fail each other. But as a reader the on-screen moments are going to be most influential in how I view the character. And so insinuations of a kinder, gentler Novinha are going to be difficult to remember when her dialogue and actions stupify me with their self-indulgence and -absorbtion.
quote: Yes, I think it is true he identified with her then, but I don't think that's when he fell in love with her. I think she intrigued (sp?) him.
Given that he was early 20's and she was 9, I don't guess he was "in love" in any general understanding. But he loved her enough to leave Valentine behind. And you have to consider that he was very familiar with the ways in which relativity seems to age people.
I think he always saw that in her, before she decided a sham marriage and adultery was the best way to manage what she thought was going on.
Novinha's main flaw is she doesn't really consider that there are things she doesn't know, even when it is glaringly obvious that they are things she doesn't know (as was the case when Pipo died and she decided to undertake her life of deception). Yet how can we not act upon as much as we know? This is why I can sympathize with her.
I generally agree with Squicky that insofar as Novinha wanted to play martyr, Ender wanted to play Savior. But the little drama doesn't work unless you have a persecutor. People in Martyr/Savior mode are therefore always looking to turn others who are innocent as often as not into persecutors. In the end I guess she turned the "persecutor" ray on him. The hopeful thing is that these are just roles people choose sometimes. It's not who they actually are. I think in general the martyr/victim has the greatest ability to break the cycle.
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posted
Oh, no doubt. Were I in the story, I might have gone all Plikt on her too. Of course, I feel pretty much the same way about Bean and especially Petra in the Shadow series (although, they don't really come across as real, flesh and blood characters to me, so that may be part of it).
It's just...err...one of the things I really enjoy about OSC's writing is the subtle ways he adds tremendous amount of depth to his characters. When he does it well, few writers are his equal and the Ender and Novhina thing is, in my opinion, one of the places were he does it very well.
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posted
I've always felt that in their quiet moments, away from the kids and away from the stage, Novinha and Ender were very sweet to each other.
Having now encountered smart, cruel, narcissistic people in reality, I probably would have stopped speaking to Novinha in about a day and half. I think that's why I can't imagine that she was unpleasant all the time - I KNOW people who are unpleasant all the time. Ender doesn't ACT like he can't go to the bathroom without someone holding his hand; there's just no way he'd put up her if she always acted the way she did at times of stress.
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posted
M. Scott Peck opined that writers don't actually create real living souls (he was speaking here of fiction- I believe it was in his Care of the Soul book on Euthanasia and he was trying to define the soul). I don't know about that, really, maybe we just cast people we know as the figures in the book. I think of that whenever people claim that this or that character didn't seem real to them. I don't know if I believe it or not. In the end, I either like the book or I don't.
Is the fudge made with margarine or butter? If you can't tell, are you really going to let it spoil your enjoyment? Too many times I've seen someone claim there was margarine and it turned out to be butter.
It would be sad it if were true that we can never get to know someone we haven't met. Bringing up, for an unrelated reason, Joseph Smith as an example.
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