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» Hatrack River Forum » Active Forums » Discussions About Orson Scott Card » Standards of Debate. (Page 1)

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Author Topic: Standards of Debate.
Pelegius
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I have learnt, through painful experience, that the standards of debate here are much lower than they are over at Ornery.


Anyone else interested in fixing this?

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Princess Leah
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no u r stupid lol
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MrSquicky
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There are obviously a lot of things that I wouldn't mind changing about Hatrack. However, I think I'd have to oppose anything that made it more similar to the trainwreck of squabbling children that Ornery appears to me to be.

You are ignored by many here, Pelegius, because you embody many of those traits that make Ornery different than Hatrack. I can understand why you'd want things to change, but as it now stands, and how it will stand in the future if I can help it, behavior such as you have shown and that is commonplace on Ornery is not acceptible here.

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Pelegius
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On Ornery, we don't call people with whom we disagree "a troll" or an "idiot" no matter how much we wish to.

What behaviour have I shown, you not making sense.

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Shan
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For the seriously debate-minded, there's Ornery. For the rest of us, there's the 'rack . . . *grin*

And the level of discussion around here suits me just fine. I like knowing what a person thinks without necessarily having to wade through tons of cited research, or lengthy diatribes on formal logic and reasoning.

Being able to accurately research and write a formal essay responese is all well and good, but sometimes folks just like to get a feel for what the other person thinks and believes without feeling like they must research and write said formal essay response . . .

Some of us have to do that all day at work, or have to do it for school, etc., and would just
as soon converse in a more light-hearted fashion.

IMHO. *smile*

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Briseis
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I agree with Shan. There's also the point of suggesting maybe just one topic where you'd vouch for a standard just for that once were you could experiment with appealing to a select group of this online society. It's hard to change an entire by challenging them upfront. Although I do feel for you on the point of people being disagreed with "idiot."
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Pelegius
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Ornery is filled with serious discussions. But Hatrack also has its share of them. I would just like to stop seeing them become festivals of name-calling.
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Will B
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Scott Adams shows us the standards of debate: http://dilbertblog.typepad.com/the_dilbert_blog/2005/11/results_of_why_.html .

Earlier here I posted a similar list (much less funny than Adams's, alas). Several people got defensive. And exemplified the standards!

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Shan
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Ornery also has its share of name-calling going on, Pelegius. I'm not a regular, but I've spent time there, too.

They're just generally more long-winded about it. [Wink]

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Orincoro
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Kudos Shan-

I think its standard blow-hard practice to include lengthy qualifications, rattle off names and dates and places and whatever else in these forums just to show that your somehow more in the know than others. But its a pointless practice.

I am glad not to have to wade through all that mind numbing garbage here, and I might add that I have never trusted the opinions of anyone who needs to consult every possible source and know every arcane fact in order to feel or seem qualified to make comments.

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tern
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quote:
On Ornery, we don't call people with whom we disagree "a troll" or an "idiot" no matter how much we wish to.
Hmmm. One more reason to prefer Hatrack. Troll. [Wink]
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airmanfour
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here, it's a more genuine expression of thought. or i could be incorrect. idiots unite!
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Bob_Scopatz
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It's really sort of difficult for people from Ornery to come to Hatrack. They often have trouble adjusting to what is USUALLY a much more respectful tone here, and certainly a place with more limits.

I have to wonder, why would someone want Hatrack (especially the OSC discussion section of it) to be more like Ornery? Isn't Ornery enough. Or, is it that Ornery is slow so you are hoping that things will be more lively here?

It's also worth noting that, so far, every person coming over here from Ornery has ended up adapting to the norms of Hatrack, or leaving, rather than succeeding in making the least bit of change in Hatrack.

(except of course, making things unpleasant for a little while)

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LadyDove
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Far as I've experienced, Hatrack is much more like a dinner table discussion than a court session and I like it this way.

There are a few wonderful essays here, but they are usually the result of very informed individuals who are answering to their area of expertise. Most of the responses are, to me, like a mosaic of experience that combine to make a whole. They are brief, peppered with humor and sarcasm and reflect a specific point of view. Sometimes it gets nasty, but that is usually because the health of the community is more important than the defining who is right and who is wrong.

Ornery is much more, well... ornery. You're expected to act like a curmugeon over there. If you do that here, no one will want to play with you.

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Pelegius
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It's pointless to pretend that Hatrack is all sweetness and light, because it isn't. What I see is that, when a serious discussion gets started, it quickly becomes a session of rudeness, with personal attacks, which are never tolerated on Ornery, being freely hurled.
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Destineer
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Ornery is superficially calm right now because of aggressive moderating. Beneath the surface, you can tell that many of the members still hate each other. By contrast, most long-standing Hatrack members seem to be friends.

But it is true that some people have been rather pissy in the serious Hatrack threads lately.

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Pelegius
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Actualy, OrneryMod rarely has to take action. The site is more self-policed.
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Destineer
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How long have you been on Ornery? I recall that a year or two ago, OrneryMod carried out a rather extensive purge, banning or suspending a number of troublesome members. So the long-standing members are aware of the implied threat.
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Pelegius
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I have been a member for a little less than a year.
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LadyDove
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quote:
It's pointless to pretend that Hatrack is all sweetness and light, because it isn't. What I see is that, when a serious discussion gets started, it quickly becomes a session of rudeness, with personal attacks, which are never tolerated on Ornery, being freely hurled.
There is more rudeness and personal attacks in HR than in Ornery? You sure about that? How were the rudeness and personal attacks "not tolerated" at Ornery?

JSYK, I'm not trying to be difficult. I'm truly amazed at your observation because I've not heard anyone else come to the same conclusion and I don't have enough recent experience with Ornery to make a legitimate comparison.

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TomDavidson
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quote:

There is more rudeness and personal attacks in HR than in Ornery? You sure about that?

Things run in cycles. The current cycle at Ornery is a remarkably civil one.
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Sartorius
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I've been skimming over there the past few weeks. They are civil, but mighty boring.
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Kit the Odd
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As someone that (mostly) lurks on both sites I'd say the biggest difference is in the nature of the community. Hatrack is a community discussion. Ornery is a political debate.

I expect to see radically different things at a neighborhood picnic than at a bitterly divided city council meeting.

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mr_porteiro_head
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quote:
I have learnt, through painful experience, that the standards of debate here are much lower than they are over at Ornery.

Anyone else interested in fixing this?

If I could snap my fingers and change this over here, I would.

Of course, I'd change it by removing all "debate" on The Rack and replacing it with respectful discussions.

Would that satisfy you?

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Bob_Scopatz
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I was one of the early joiners at Ornery. I have gone back there and left on three separate occassions. Mostly, I think the standard for debate is lower there in one important respect:

- there's no attempt at all at being polite.

For the most part, here, politeness is at a high level. And when you see people being impolite, you should take a closer look.

It's usually just a few select people. Often several of the others here have tried to get that person to tone it down or be more civil, and they may be considered a 'work in progress' in some cases.

But, ultimately, if someone doesn't violate the rules of the forum, they aren't banned over here even if they ARE rather disruptive, juvenile or rude.

That they don't really set the tone for the place is due to the fact that the vast majority of people do exercise restraint.

I'm happy to hear that Ornery has turned more civil in recent weeks.

I'm not at all interested in going back there. I thanked the mod for his insights on the last go-round, and left.

I have to say that the place is not at all friendly to outsiders and the tolerance for nasty behavior from people with high post counts is a real problem there, IMHO.

As for here, take it or leave it really.

I think Ornery teaches people some shockingly bad manners and they just assume that they are some sort of elite who can come to Hatrack and show us all how it should be done.

As I said, most of the time, these people start out causing problems for themselves and others, and then gradually figure out how to behave in this context.

I've seen three classes of really disruptive people here:

- people who join because they spotted some issue (maybe ran a Google Search) or wanted to post somewhere active to get a high number of hits on some topic related to their favorite topic. Or just wanting to be purposefully disruptive somewhere and see how funny it is. Usually not funny, of course.

- people who transfer in from Ornery and don't bother to get the lay of the land first. They use debating tactics that people here don't like and would rather not have to deal with. And the end result is either that person whines about how Hatrack isn't Ornery and leaves, or they decide they like it here and figure out how to behave.

- political and/or religious idealogues who seem to think that seeing the other person's POV amounts to treason, sacrilege, or, at the very least, a loss of points in the great debate scorecard in the sky.

There are other lesser demons here, but these are the ones I think could make the place noticeably less-than-nice at any given time, especially if someone stuck around for only a short time, or only visited the place infrequently.

Having been to both Hatrack (in its many forms) and Ornery, I can assure you, however, that the level of discussion is often quite high here and that the personal attacks are generally kept to a minimum, with, of course, some notable and flamous exceptions.

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EvaXephon
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The word 'Ornery' has been said thirty-five (thirty-six, now) times in this thread, and although I am interested in this discussion, I have no idea what it is.

Is it a website? A message board? A debate forum?

In any case, I like this place, the posters are so respectful. It is refreshing in contrast to most of the forums I visit.

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K_heron
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Ornery American is another website.
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K_heron
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I'm pretty sure that there is a link to Ornery here on Hatrack.

Back on the debate topic: the quality of a thread is totally based on the people participating. If some one isn't debating respectfully or "well", they have no right to complain about the thread.

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Shan
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Ornery
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Kent
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(*aside* Sorry everyone) Pelegius come back home to Ornery, dinner is getting cold. Leave these nice people alone. What? Okay, you can bring a couple back with you, but they seem happy enough eating here. Oh, and stop scuffing your shoes, you're kicking up dust and wearing them out.
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OrneryMOd
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You know I do not see this as adding anything to either site. I am going to ask Papa Janitor to lock this thread. I think it can serve no good for anyone involved.

OrneryMod

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mr_porteiro_head
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*dances in unlocked thread*
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Scott R
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:turns on 'It's the End of the World As We Know It':

:runs around flailing:

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Storm Saxon
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quote:

I was one of the early joiners at Ornery. I have gone back there and left on three separate occassions. Mostly, I think the standard for debate is lower there in one important respect:

- there's no attempt at all at being polite.

I don't really find 99% of Ornery to be any less polite than Hatrack, given the topics. I actually find the opposite to be true, quite often. You can't frame a lot of opinions here without running into a storm of hurt feelings, snide sarcasm, or just being totally ignored.

Ornery just happens to be blessed with one or two gifted manipulators at this point in time that suck the whole place down for me. It used to be true of Hatrack, too, but most of our jerks have moved on or post rarely now.

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Bob_Scopatz
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In my conversation (via e-mail) with OrneryMod the last time I went there, it became clear that much of what I didn't like about Ornery was the behavior of a minority of members who, because of long tenure there, were valued by the community and had obviously earned a bit of "slack" from everyone with regard to their occassional abrasiveness.

I freely admit that my problem was my own, and not Ornery's in that respect.

But I do stand by what I said in that the reaction to the situation was not even a call for civility, it was just "oh that's just how he gets sometimes."

I'm not knocking Ornery nearly as much as it sounds. Really, the issue was with me not wanting to invest the time on yet another web BB to get to know a bunch of people enough to know when their abrasiveness was just "them being them." I can't fault Ornery for giving slack to long-standing members. I mean, I certainly get that at Hatrack and probably abuse the privilege enough to not want it to go away.

I get a little bit hot, however, when people come over from Ornery and complain about Hatrack. At the very worst, they are pretty much the same in terms of dynamics, but with different personalities involved.

At their best, they are wonderful online communities that serve very different purposes and often very different people.

As for Ornery's "style" I do pretty well if the "discussion" centers around facts, less well if people are just arguing opinions, and totally not well at all if it descends into tossing pithy slogans at each other to "score points."

I must've hit Ornery on a bad day for one particular poster, and it soiled the experience for me. But that was this time. It was my 3rd try there. I'm just not suited for the place.

And I have to say, by the way, that I think the world of OrneryMod. I don't know who OrneryMod is, but I think there's a lot to be proud of in keeping a site going this long that's dedicated to pointed political discussion. Most of the ones I've ever belonged to are long gone and died because the minority voices were all run off by screaming banshees of whichever political stripe had the most voices.

Sure, there'd be one or two people willing to take the abuse for the opposition, but they eventually get tired and leave.

Ornery is much better than that.

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OrneryMOd
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Thanks Bob.

And you probably do know who I really am. [Smile]

OrneryMod

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Dagonee
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quote:
You can't frame a lot of opinions here without running into a storm of hurt feelings, snide sarcasm, or just being totally ignored.
Irony alert!
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Seatarsprayan
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I think Ornery is more welcoming to newbies. Hatrack is full of in jokes and cliques, while at Ornery no one really likes each other. A newbie at Hatrack feels left out, but a newbie at Ornery, if treated poorly, feels like he belongs.
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El JT de Spang
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Dag,
Good to see you.

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Storm Saxon
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quote:

quote:You can't frame a lot of opinions here without running into a storm of hurt feelings, snide sarcasm, or just being totally ignored.

Irony alert!

Indeed.
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Dagonee
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Perhaps one who thinks ignoring opinions is detrimental to debate ought not to make a point of ignoring the opinions of others.

Edit: Hey, JT!

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Storm Saxon
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See, there's just no place for this line of conversation to go but down, Dagonee. That's why I don't argue with you, not because your logic and your opinions are so awesome that they leave me speechless and unable to respond, but because I don't get into endless fighting and passive-aggressive bs. It sucks for me and it sucks for the forum.

I understand that I am not blameless in how you react to me. I take full responsibility for being a jerk to you sometimes, but that doesn't mean that things aren't the way they are, and that I find you extremely draining and annoying to argue with at this point. So, I just won't do it after this. I am only writing this as a courtesy to make sure that everyone understands where I'm coming from, and because I know you will almost certainly goad me about ignoring you until I say something.

People have ignored me on this forum because of things I've said. I accept that I am sometimes abrasive and rude, that I deserved being shunned. I am working on not being so, though. I do understand that sometimes people feel like they have no other recourse but to ignore others. I would like to ask that if someone finds something I've said abrasive to write me an email, though, before they do so. If you don't feel like you can do that, and I won't listen, then I guess that it's understandable that you don't.

That said, I do see that some opinions are not welcome on this forum, even when they are expressed politely. I do agree with conservatives that they often get piled on for no good reason, but it can go the other way, too.

I'm not interested in arguing with you, Dagonee. Just let it lie and let's move on, please.

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Dagonee
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quote:
That's why I don't argue with you, not because your logic and your opinions are so awesome that they leave me speechless and unable to respond
You've denied something I've never said nor even hinted at.

quote:
People have ignored me on this forum because of things I've said. I accept that I am sometimes abrasive and rude, that I deserved being shunned. I am working on not being so, though. I do understand that sometimes people feel like they have no other recourse but to ignore others. I would like to ask that if someone finds something I've said abrasive to write me an email, though, before they do so.
You had the opportunity to simply not respond to my post before. You had the opportunity to send me an email about it. Instead, you chose to post it publicly and to single me out.

quote:
I'm not interested in arguing with you, Dagonee. Just let it lie and let's move on, please.
This does not mean that I will not respond to your posts, nor point out your inconsistent behavior when portions of that behavior have been directed to me.
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katharina
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Come on, Dag, let it die. There's nothing to prove here.
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Bob_Scopatz
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Man, I hate it when two people I think highly of really grate on each other.

Crud.

Besides, you're making Hatrack look bad in front of the visitors! That really hurts the tourism trade, y'know. [No No]

quote:
I think Ornery is more welcoming to newbies. Hatrack is full of in jokes and cliques, while at Ornery no one really likes each other. A newbie at Hatrack feels left out, but a newbie at Ornery, if treated poorly, feels like he belongs.
[ROFL]

I think that's a very keen insight, actually. Ornery isn't there to be "nice-nice" all the time, and there are groups in which getting insulted means you finally belong.

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Shan
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Unless I start the thread, I'm generally ignored. I'm just another chirping cricket.

*wonders if this means she is abrasive or boring or repetitve or just too slow of a typist to join in a timely fashion*

[Big Grin]

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Bob_Scopatz
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Shan, I actually think you might be posting at the wrong time of day.
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Dr Strangelove
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Hey, maybe this is a good thread to ask about an observation I've made. Because of my low post count I sometimes feel a bit apprehensive about posting on some of the more ... well, I'll say it, cliqueish threads. Threads which tend to have only people who have post counts in the thousands posting in them. I must say, now that I have it written out, its not a question really but more of an observation. Therefore, I've resolved to attempt to run up my post count on meaningless threads so I can feel comfortable posting with the big boys. And there is no point in posting this, except its late, and ... hehe. Well, shameless post count addition number 139.
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Bob_Scopatz
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quote:
Therefore, I've resolved to attempt to run up my post count on meaningless threads so I can feel comfortable posting with the big boys.
Worked for me!

[Wink]

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quidscribis
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quote:
Because of my low post count I sometimes feel a bit apprehensive about posting on some of the more ... well, I'll say it, cliqueish threads. Threads which tend to have only people who have post counts in the thousands posting in them.
I don't know what you're talking about, and honestly, I don't think anyone cares that you have a low post count when you (the generic, non-specific you) post in a thread. If you feel like posting, then post. Don't let something silly like a post count stop you.
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