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» Hatrack River Forum » Active Forums » Discussions About Orson Scott Card » OSC, You and Me, We Disagree (Page 2)

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Author Topic: OSC, You and Me, We Disagree
RunningBear
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Hmmm, that could very well account for it.
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BlackBlade
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I wandered around Rome for about 1 week and I did not find tasty pizza. I found TONS of delicious foods but no pizza. I am sorry but I think Americans have made pizza into something with FAR more possibilities and tasty choices than their Italian counterparts.
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Loren
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There's nothing wrong with American pizza in general. I enjoy it just fine.

But it's not Italian pizza. Not even close.

The best pizza I've ever had was in a tiny little (literal) hole-in-the-wall called "La Pia" in La Spazia. Second best was in pizza's birthplace, Napoli. Third was a wonderful little pizzeria in Amalfi.

quote:
I wandered around Rome for about 1 week and I did not find tasty pizza.
Yeah, that's entirely possible, especially in touristy places like Rome and Florence. But that doesn't mean it's not there. It just means you didn't know where to look.
quote:
I am sorry but I think Americans have made pizza into something with FAR more possibilities and tasty choices than their Italian counterparts.
I am sorry, but this makes me doubt that you have actually had Italian pizza. More possibilities? More tasty choices? One thing I love about Italian pizzerias is that you walk in and pick up a menu with 15 or 20 different kinds of pizzas: capricciosa, quattro stagioni, quattro formaggi, fra diavolo and on and on. And no crappy toppings like anchovies or <shudder> pineapple.
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vonk
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There is no way that any pizzeria, anywhere, has found more toppings to put on a pizza that Cici's has. I'm not arguing quality here, just variety. I mean really, macaroni and cheese pizza? Apple pie pizza? They have really gotten out of hand.

Oh, and pineapple on pizza is a gift from Zenu.

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Pelegius
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BB, Vas? There must be literaly thousands of wonderful pizza places in Rome, particularly of the Piazza Navona, which is an interesting location which is both extereamly touristy and wonderfuly local (you can still find locals who go there for an evening, in adition to the residents and workers of the Brazilian embassy.)

Florence also has several wondeful, and mercifuly cheap, cafés for pizza, notably off the Piazza della Signoria, which is one of the wonders of the world but terribly touristy.

However, it is in southern Italy that pizza tastes best, even Capri, which is more English than Italian and has cafés selling the bizzare dish of "toast Capri" has wonderful pizza.

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TheSeeingHand
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I've heard that Italian pizza is better than American.

I've also heard good things about Italian ice cream. yum yum!

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pooka
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quote:
Giordano's pizza in Chicago. Best stuffed pizza in the universe; best pizza anywhere.
-starLisa

I'd have to agree that this is pretty close to right in my opinion. I've been working on copying their crust for quite a few years now.

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Scott R
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??

Stuffed pizza?

You're insane. It may be delicious, it may be miraculous... but pizza, it is not.

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Pelegius
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TheSeeingHand, no one dares deny the supreame power of GELATO!! Now, the best gelatarias make their own and strive to be distinctive, so no product is the same and it is worth trying several. Bacio is my favourite flavor.
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Dan_Frank
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quote:
??

Stuffed pizza?

You're insane. It may be delicious, it may be miraculous... but pizza, it is not.

This is precisely the attitude that proves you misunderstand your opposition.

What makes American pizza so spectacular is the fact that it is not bound by the Italian conventions of what "is" pizza. In America, pizza is whatever you can get someone to put on your pizza. Stuffed crust is pizza. Anchovies and pineapple are still pizza because people enjoy eating pizza with those toppings.

A little place near my hometown in California used to buy a large amount of seemingly random fresh ingredients every day. Those ingredients ended up being the pizza of the day. Eating there was the only time I've ever had corn on pizza, and it was damn good.

If American pizza is more delicious and more miraculous than the Italian counterparts, and your only argument against it is that the good stuff doesn't count as real "pizza", then you've already lost.

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Dan_Frank
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PS: Gelato is another story. Score one for Italy.
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Jeesh
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Gelato is DEFINATLY better than normal ice cream. IMO of course.
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Scott R
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DF:

Calzone. All it REALLY is is a small pizza folded in half before being cooked.

The act of doing so ceases to make it a pizza. It is instead something different.

The word football means different things to different nations.

Pizza, likewise. I don't think much of what we have here is worthy of that honorific.

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bluenessuno
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in Elizabeth Gilbert's "Eat, Pray, Love" she recounts the joys of Eating pizza and other delights in Italy. "it's the best place to have pizza, but it's cost prohibitive." paraphrasing and not expressing my own opinion.
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Dan_Frank
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Scott, you just made multiple disjointed points, but seemed to be presenting them as one.

Yes, a calzone is actually an awful lot like a pizza. But we don't call it a pizza, because another language already has a word for it that we can adopt. I'm sure if Italians had a special word for "hawaiian", we'd just adopt that.

Hey, open-faced sandwiches are a lot like pizza too. Bread on the bottom, vegetables, cheese, meat on top. But we call those open-faced sandwiches. And they aren't real popular in America.

As for different nations having different meanings for the same words... sure. That's exactly right. So "Pizza" means one thing in Italy. It means something else in America. And OSC's (and others) point is that when you weigh all the "Pizza" in America against all the "Pizza" in Italy, America's pizza wins.

If you insist that American pizza isn't pizza... fine. But we can do that any time we compare foods. It doesn't bring anything to the table with regards to the food quality. All you're doing is trying to invalidate the entire discussion.

"Japanese noodles are better than American noodles."
"Bah, Japanese noodles aren't really noodles."

Like I said before: If your only argument against American pizza is that it doesn't fit some nebulous definition of "real pizza", then you've already lost.

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Scott R
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[Smile]

Just in case you aren't aware, I'm not being serious-- I realize that my preference for Italian pizza is personal, and may not transfer objectively to the rest of society. I DON'T honestly think Italian pizza can be objectively proved to be better than American pizza; although to me, its superiority is beyond question.

There are some things quantifiably better about Italian pizzarias; most of the ones I frequented made their own sauce daily, made their own crusts daily, bought fresh, real mozzarella cheese-- that freshness makes quite a difference.

When I first lived in Italy, my favorite pizza was the Bismark-- simply because it had so much STUFF on it. As the name implies, it is not an Italian creation. As my pizza-pallette became more refined, I grew to prefer the simpler pizzas-- the diavola, the margherita, quattro stagione. (I never liked quattro formaggi, because I dislike gorganzola.)

It's this obsession with more toppings (and less fresh ones) that I think is the downfall of American style pizza. You don't taste any elements-- it's all a mash of confused...junk. Too much, in my opinion.

Oh...and the crust sucks.

[Smile]

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Dan_Frank
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See, now that's a good argument! [Smile]

I've never been to Italy, but it's not difficult for me to imagine better pizza than most American varieties. Some of the best pizza I have had here came from upscale italian restaurants, which would seem to verify your point.

And I bet you thought we disagreed. [Wink]

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Sterling
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Rocco's pizza of Portland used to offer ricotta as a topping. Now *that* was a pizza. <drool>

It's still great stuff: tasty crust, balanced spicing on the sauce, glorious amounts of cheese, no one can eat more than two slices without pain. And it's across the street from Powell's, possibly the greatest english bookstore on earth.

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xray
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pete and elda's pizza in belmare New jersey...best pizza ive ever ate
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Rakeesh
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All I know is, Totino's frozen pizzas are pretty darn good for only $0.98
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mr_porteiro_head
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Occasionally I find them on sale for $0.33. [Cool]
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erosomniac
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quote:
Originally posted by Rakeesh:
All I know is, Totino's frozen pizzas are pretty darn good for only $0.98

Dude. Whether you're paying $5.00 or $0.01 to eat a turd, you're still paying to eat a turd.
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vonk
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Whoa, Whoa. I would not have survived college if it weren't for a constantly replenished supply of Totino's in the C-store. Please, for the love of god, do not mock. Plus, you can make pizza tacos with them. Yummy.
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MrMojoDriver
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quote:
Originally posted by Joldo:
Uh-uh. The best pizza is Hawaiian.

Spam pizza?

[Razz]

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RunningBear
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N. O. NO!!
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dab
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my new favorite pizza is beau jo's in colorado... you eat the crust with honey, and its thick like chicago style, but not as heavy... In NYC you cant beat gramaldis which is right under the brooklyn bridge... that is GREAT pizza.
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mr_porteiro_head
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quote:
Originally posted by erosomniac:
quote:
Originally posted by Rakeesh:
All I know is, Totino's frozen pizzas are pretty darn good for only $0.98

Dude. Whether you're paying $5.00 or $0.01 to eat a turd, you're still paying to eat a turd.
I wonder if we still have any in the freezer.

*goes to check*

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Icarus
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quote:
Originally posted by erosomniac:
quote:
Originally posted by Rakeesh:
All I know is, Totino's frozen pizzas are pretty darn good for only $0.98

Dude. Whether you're paying $5.00 or $0.01 to eat a turd, you're still paying to eat a turd.
[ROFL]

quote:
Originally posted by dab:
my new favorite pizza is beau jo's in colorado... you eat the crust with honey, and its thick like chicago style, but not as heavy... In NYC you cant beat gramaldis which is right under the brooklyn bridge... that is GREAT pizza.

I was very excited, last time I was in New York, to eat at Lombardi's.

You know.

Where Pizza was invented.

[Smile]

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pooka
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Heheheh.
While part of my lifetime quest is to make the ultimate pizza, I do like that crispy party pizza crust. But the little sausage bits on them do resemble turds.

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Uprooted
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Adding Lombardi's to list of places I have to go someday.

I must be hungry. I think I've posted 5 or 6 times today and they've all been on food threads.

Anyway, had to add a little New York pizzeria story. A couple of years ago I went back to Long Island for a funeral. On my way home (I was living in VA at the time), I stopped in a little local pizzeria for a slice (plain cheese) to go.

I just happened to tell the guy helping me that I'd grown up on L.I. and hadn't had any good NY pizza for years, and that some friends had recommended this place when I said I was craving some. Well, the owner perked up his ears at that and ended up coming over and having a 15-minute conversation w/ me about where I'd grown up, etc., and I ended up walking out of there with a free extra slice and some cannolis on the house. (I don't even like cannolis--and I'm probably not spelling it right either--but there was no telling this guy no, and I did find someone who appreciated them!)

Really good pizza. And they say New Yorkers aren't friendly!

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Icarus
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Oh, I used to think that, but then I learned that New Yorkers are as friendly as any other group of people--you just have to learn to recognize New York friendliness. [Smile]
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